Tag me for the other games Gio.
Sheep Draft R1 - MJJ v Enigma_87/RedTiger
- Thread starter Gio
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You can't say that bro. We are basing our games on peak performance, and at Roa's peak performance He was considered A Very very good Keeper, so good that United were in for him before Barthez bit unfortunately Row didn't have a European passport.
Well surely peak Seedorf with peak Redondo is better than Redondo and Helguera that got better of Scholes-Keane combo. Seedorf is both offensively and defensively excellent, not to mention he's really ripped. You mentioned strength I don't think either Robson or Souness ever had his frame. Also Stojkovic/Redondo/Seedorf are all much comfortable and technically better than any of your midfield 2. I think in terms of creativity and technical ability in the center our team will trump yours. All of Stojkovic/Nedved/Seedorf/Redondo are technically superior. Gullit and Mazzola are excellent of course but the central pair is a bit lacking in that area.
In that tactics they are positionally tight and narrow. Even if they try to go wide, it has to be through the left, as our right side is quite superior with Vogts at right back.
I think you are underestimating Cannavaro really. Pretty good defender is unfair to him, considering all those years at top level. Sure Romario is one of the best, but he's no Ronaldo in that area and Cannavaro has played against top strikers in his whole career. I don't think the edge is that obvious here.
Height is not everything. Shearer was not 200 cm, but it was not a problem to batter Hyypia and defenders with a height advantage over him. He's strong, great leap and has predatory instinct. I don't think your team has advantage in height to be fair. Keane I think is a typo as he's not in your team Robson and Souness are 180 or below. McGrath is the same height as Shearer. Voller is 180 and Hansen is the same height as McNeill.
I don't think Roa is a joke. He was an excellent keeper who reach the very height for a short period of time. Yes, of course Yashin is better, but is the gulf in quality bigger than Vogts over Petrescu?
Surely, but he's not in the same quality as Irwin or other full backs that can play on either side. He has played in his all career at right back. It's like putting a lower quality Neville at left back for first time of his career. Ferrer is no match for Stojkovic as Nedved is no match for Petrescu.
Ferrer will be facing stojkovic not Nedved.
For sure, like all great keepers he's a nutjob. His body of work at the top is fairly limited, especially compared to the greatest of all in the opposite sticks. But he still reached a high level - the European Sports Magazine keeper of the season in 1998/99 - ahead of the likes of Kahn, Toldo, Kopke, VDS, Pagliuca, Peruzzi etc.
Well he was pretty solid at the highest level in the 90's. Ferguson wanted him and essentially would've been pretty better choice than Barthez as mentioned above.
Again of course Yashin has the edge man to man, but your full backs are no match for Nedved and Stojkovic as well.
IMO Nedved and Stojkovic will provide better width in this game. Also I rate Souness and Robson highly, but who out of Souness/Robson or Redondo/Seedorf is capable of providing that space with a deep pass better? I think easily the latter have the better passing range.
Also I think our strike partnership compliment better our side than Romario/Voller, a subject that was touched by Joga.
Anyone with anything to add?
Souness was an excellent passer too - the hardman reputation can do him a disservice in that regard.
Yeah, of course don't disagree with that. I think however Seedorf and Redondo are better in that regard, but that is surely is not making Souness look bad, as both Seedorf and Redondo are known for their passing range as well as passing from deep. Stojkovic and Nedved as well IMO are better in that regard to Gullit. For Mazolla I can't really comment cause I haven't seen all lot of him.
My point is I think we have an edge in creativity in Nedved/Stojkovic/Signori/Seedorf/Redondo over Gullit/Mazzola/Robson/Souness. Surely his CM is completely different duo to ours(and also quite similar both of them to be fair) but MJJ's tactics is based on Voller and Romario getting that service(I'm not sure how his duo will be set up- side by side or one in the hole or as a second striker). From MJJ's tactics I think he's setting up Romario and Voller as a duo which would mean we would have an extra man in midfield when in possession or off possession in Signori.
Also it is worth of note that with better technical players in our side we're bound to get fouled a lot more and probably getting dangerous FK which will be in Shearer/Stojkovic/Nedved comfort zone, as well as probably getting cards as well on fouling them as well, as our forward line is pretty versatile and mobile.
I'm not so sure how MJJ wants to use his flanks, because Petrescu is known to be a very offensive fullback, even a winger in some games, which will leave a huge gap on the flank. Same goes for Ferrer, who will leave space for Nedved to burst through.
I'm know Romario is one of the best finishers in the game, but really so are Signori and Shearer. Just look at their top years:
Signori in 92/93
32 games - 26 goals
93/94
24 games - 23 goals
95/96
31 games - 24 goals.
source: Transfermarkd
That's almost goal per game when Seria A was in it's heyday.
And for Shearer:
From 92/93 till 96/97 he scored 137 goals in 169 games
and with a Blackburn and Newcastle teams. Of course they were solid teams and at that time had quality players, but I'm sure his numbers would be botched up if he had United midfield as a service and Becks and Giggs particularly on each flank.
As for Signori and Shearer partnering together I think Casiraghi / Signori is a good indicator.
Casiraghi was basically a demo version of Shearer, his strengths are - good in the air, hardworking, strong - can hold up play and the ball and bring others into it and can score goals in and outside the box.
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Shameless bump.
Anyone like to vote?
Anyone like to vote?
Find this one quite hard to call. Both teams have clear weaknesses balanced out by obvious strengths.
What are the weaknesses and strengths of the 2 teams in your eyes?
A lack of what you might call natural width. It's a weakness in many of the teams in this draft - and I suffer from it myself, to be honest.
The strength is, well, a central one (obviously) - but more to the point, pure attacking strength: There are goals in both teams, clearly.
Yeah you certainly have a point. We had an issue with this in the drafting as well. Figo went blocked he was perfect with Nedved on both wings. We were looking for more versatile forward line, rather than chalk on their boots wingers. I think with Stojkovic and Nedved we did a good job as both will most likely cut inside, but both are no strangers on the wing, both have great dribbling ability on one on one and can make a great cross. It's natural for them to open up the width and get the ball on the wing. Of course there were other options, but either not available, or we couldn't get them.
We tried to get the best possible balance as I think the right side in this match is pretty well balanced with Vogts and Stojkovic(really couldn't ask for a better full back, who is solid defensively and has pace to burn and can whip a cross), while on the other side we have Nedved and Komano - Nedved is pretty hard worker and Seedorf is not unfamiliar with the left side so he can help if needed.
All in all I think the side is well balanced, but IMO Signori and Shearer are not automatic vote grabbers as playing for a lower tier sides and without the medals to show for it would get tend to overlooked. As well as both of them are not "flashy" enough. However for us they are both integral for the system as alike a Casiraghi/Signori combo we think it will flourish much better and work much better as both of them are one of the greatest goalscorers in their respective leagues. And we definitely needed goalscorers in our team to get to the end of crosses or to utilize even the little space in the box, rather than having a two false 9 type of a strikers or 2 out and out strikers.
I found it really surprising that some fellow posters questioned the possible partnership. Signori played only with strikers much alike Shearer, albeit lesser version of them. Even Boksic(although a bit different in some aspects) is close to Shearer in others, while Shearer obviously was partnering with Les and Chris Sutton in his golden years, but he's no stranger to partnering with Owen for example - fast, skilled and IMO both worked well together as well.
I think we have a fairly similar thing going with regards to "natural" width in the opposition half: Your Nedved/Stojkoivic combo is quite similar to my Mendieta/Šekularac thing in terms of roles.
Ideally, I should have grabbed a left winger of undisputed calibre along the way (parallel to Figo on the right for you), but it wasn't on for several reasons.
I agree that you've done well balance wise, though - you've got the edge there, for me. Your team is less congested than MJJ's with Nedved there as an actual wide midfielder accustomed to operating in that role, plus a naturally wide-leaning CM in Seedorf and the trickster Stojkovic who can easily drift wide in order to play his game.
I think the forward combo would work well too - no issue with it. But in terms of sheer quality, I think MJJ has your number - with Romario as the most obvious threat on the park, Völler being well rounded - and Gullit and Mazzola in those AM/inside forward-ish roles behind (both being clear goal threats).
It's too close to call for me.
They will but correspondingly your centre defenders are no match for my attacking four. Its a compromise, gullit and mazzola will override the middle and dominate as much as nedved and stojkovic outwide unless your wingers help out. In which case it cancels out.
Joga didnt like either sides forward partnership and romario is the best forward on the pitch.So who leads now?
I found it real odd that Joga criticized both your formation and strike partnership and at the end voted for your team. But fair enoughThey will but correspondingly your centre defenders are no match for my attacking four. Its a compromise, gullit and mazzola will override the middle and dominate as much as nedved and stojkovic outwide unless your wingers help out. In which case it cancels out.
I think Signori can provide the extra man spot in midfield. Voller and Romario are not second strikers and not versatile to do that bit of team work IMO that Signori can provide. If you go through the center of course there are Seedorf and Redondo it's not like your attacking 4 against our back 2. Also if you do not exploit the flanks both Komano and especially Vogts can help out and make an interception.
If the front four comes together so will the the full backs narrow them down. If you decide to bomb the flanks then with the fullbacks you're leaving both Nedved and Stojkovic exposed on a counter with Shearer between your two defenders and IMO with Nedved's and Stojkovic pace you will find yourself outnumbered on a counter.
I found it real odd that Joga criticized both your formation and strike partnership and at the end voted for your team. But fair enough
I think Signori can provide the extra man spot in midfield. Voller and Romario are not second strikers and not versatile to do that bit of team work IMO that Signori can provide. If you go through the center of course there are Seedorf and Redondo it's not like your attacking 4 against our back 2. Also if you do not exploit the flanks both Komano and especially Vogts can help out and make an interception.
If the front four comes together so will the the full backs narrow them down. If you decide to bomb the flanks then with the fullbacks you're leaving both Nedved and Stojkovic exposed on a counter with Shearer between your two defenders and IMO with Nedved's and Stojkovic pace you will find yourself outnumbered on a counter.
If signori is helping in midfield, that damages your attack. McGrath and Hansen are well equipped to handle shearer, seedorf and redondo will have their handsful against souness and robson. Either way you will be over-run through the middle unless your wingers help out in which case you cant expoit the flanks advantage.
In that case, you have my front four, my two midfielders and my two wingbacks against your two defenders and three mids. Do you really want to leave them alone there?
I think you are grossly underrating Robson and Souness, they were excellent players technically and that allied with their physicality and tactical nous, made them fearsome all-round midfield generals to be feared with. It's fair to say that you have the edge in midfield technically, but it's not as significant as you are making it out to be imo. Gullit was an excellent technical player, and the epitome of the perfect blend of technique and power and likewise Mazzola was a sublimely gifted player who is on par with your midfielders technically. It's also notable that whilst Seedorf-Redondo have the edge in the technical and passing stakes, Souness-Robson have the edge when it comes to physicality, goalscoring prowess, dynamism, graft etc. They are both fantastic midfield combinations with different things going for them but the overall quality differential isn't significant imo.
Also come on, Souness would eat Seedorf for breakfast in the physicality stakes - not physique mind you. He was one of football's genuine hard men and not exactly someone whom you could say, would come off worse in a physical battle against just about anyone.
I criticised the aesthetics of his 4-2-2-2 formation, calling it cramped and static, and stated that a narrow 4-2-3-1 would look better whilst the players would essentially have the same roles. I also didn't really criticise his strike partnership but just thought Völler being a second-striker was an interesting topic, thus labelling it a key point of contention. That's why I brought up his strike partnership for Germany where he and Klinsmann played interchangeably as centre-forwards and neither really did have specialised roles as the lone striker and second-striker. Thus, I thought it was interesting topic as you'd think Völler and Romario looks a bit off but perhaps Völler's all-round game might just about make it work. It's not ideal and you'd prefer a more defined second striker ala Bebeto or a a playmaker ala Laudrup behind Romario, but perhaps the cohesiveness of that strike duo wasn't as bad as it was made out to be.
Could have obviously phrased that paragraph in the initial post better though, having read it again.
Ultimately it boils down to precisely what Chester said, you have the edge balance wise whereas MJJ has the edge quality wise. A really close match but I just felt MJJ's side could just about work and tbh, his midfield duo was the tipping point for me. They do have quite a job on their hands holding it all together but if anyone could do that it's them imo.
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Just add up the votes for the first four options - and compare them to the sum total of the last four. It's quite straight forward, actually. What determines the outcome is the total amount of votes for either team (just as before). The "goal difference" only comes into play if the total amount of votes is the same for each team.
That said, @Gio - perhaps it would look more orderly if it was listed as:
Team A - Team B 1-0
Team A - Team B 2-1
Team A - Team B 3-2
Team A - Team B 3-0
Team B - Team A 1-0
Team B - Team A 2-1
Team B - Team A 3-2
Team B - Team A 3-0
Makes it easier for the voters to see right away which four options go in favour of A - and B.
Bump..
Don't get me wrong mate I really rate both Souness and Robson. Maybe Souness is probably a bit better, take aside the club rivalry and was a midfield general in his time. I think just our midfield is a bit better technically and possession wise , it doesn't mean is a whole lot better, just I feel there is more creativity in there. Also Signori can be our extra man in midfield to create an advantage, while I don't think either of the attacking pair MJJ has can do so.
Well I think MJJ is playing Voller and Romario as a pair, rather than Voller as a SS. Which IMO makes it unbalanced. However to be fair MJJ has really built a great team and it's really tough encounter as the score would suggest. Not much apart in those two teams, obviously we have weaknesses I think our marginal advantage is the better balance.
Congrats @Enigma_87 and @RedTiger
Thanks, @MJJ really tough luck for this pairing you had a great team and the score shows for it, was really on the edge. It was really one of the teams I'd have liked to avoid for a first round draw.
Commiserations MJJ, you drafted a beast of a side with excellent players, it deserved to go through to the next round.
Yeah messed up in the end with my last couple of picks which showed, no shame in losing to a side like yours! Best of luck in the future rounds.