@giorno thoughts on Guti?
Sheep Draft Q/F - P-nut vs. Don Alfredo
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I said "some" consider this to be his peak (mainly some Dortmund fans), but I have argued multiple times around here that LW Reus is the best Reus.
I think Juanfran is a good one, but you are really going down a stretch if you call him definitely "the greatest defensive fullback of the modern game". For one, I think peak Filipe Luis is the better one from the Atletico defence and you have other guys like Lahm and Azpilicueta, who I consider to be above Juanfran both in terms of defending and attacking. That is probably hard to assess because we only ever saw Juanfran in the uber-defensive Atletico side, but he has never looked that great for Spain, for what it's worth.
I know you want to sit deep here, but your midfield is not the right one for that. Atletico usually had 3 or 4 hard-working CMs/DMs on the pitch and I see one hard-working CM and then a big massive gap in front of your defence for me to control and play into.
Knew you'd ask that. No one really stands out from the pack to be called the best of the modern game IMO.
Regarding the second bold part, of course, you are right. Which is why I said he is not bad my any means and yea, lucky to be facing a modern player. Put him against a decent tier 2 all time winger in an otherwise ordinary defense alongside him and I'd have my doubts.
There is so much that I don't understand about this Guti thing
1. Why would you want a lazy playmaker in a counter attacking side? Simeone would have none of that, he needs players with "cojones"
2. Why would you need a lazy playmaker in a side with Schweinsteiger and Di Stefano (and Figo)?
3. Who is doing the heavy lifting in P-Nut's midfield? Is it only Schweinsteiger having to defend against all three of my fantastic midfielders in Iniesta, Modric and Vidal? He is not a DM and that was not the role he had his best performances in (that was in a double pivot next to Martinez).
4. Who is protecting the fullbacks against double-downs from Reus/Demyanenko and Conti/Beszonov, while Schweinsteiger has to look out for the midfield?
5. Why does Guti only have 13 caps for Spain?
6. If he is much inferior to Mendieta, Baraja, Valeron and Raul (good players, but not exactly GOATs), what is he doing in an All-Time Draft?
1. I've answered this previously and if you watch the multiple videos I've posted you'd see exactly what he would bring to the side. His long range passing as well as defense splitting through balls are insane. It means no matter which midfielder the ball breaks to can spring counters much quicker.
2. This has been answered by 1 mostly, he is also very press resistant as evidenced from the videos above where he is being hounded by the Barcelona side.
3. I've addressed this concern early in the game as well. In a deep block there is no need for a dedicated defensive midfielder. The gaps between midfield and defence are narrow, so Schweinsteiger is more than capable of sitting in that gap.
4. You really want to push your full backs high up the pitch and leave Gento, Figo and Drogba against a back 2?
5. Also explained earlier, he was consistently moved around the pitch when Real brought in GOATs. He excelled in each of them, but never stayed in one for long enough to be able to oust players already in the national squad.
6. He's not, he's more inconsistent and plays a completely different game to them.
Ivanovic (during his peak) and Azpi should be in the mix. Wes Brown is not that old either and falls under modern fullback. Solid in 2008.
I don't know what else he could do to be able to be higher thought of as a purely defensive fullback. He's got the record to prove he's stopped some of the best wingers of the modern era.
Azpi is the only other one id I'd consider at a similar level personally, although he also struggles in drafts when used as a defensive full back
So... you are picking more attacking players because you've picked defensive set up?
Seems counter intuitive I know, however if I wanted to press and control the game I'd have wanted a Davids/Keane type in there instead. When playing a deep counter attacking style there isn't as much need for an out and out ball winner, in my eyes.
You win the ball back by closing off space and waiting for the mistake. I'd rather have Guti in there springing the forward balls, than say Deschamps as suggested by EAP.
Let's take a look at the other side of the game when my attack is getting at that defence.
A front 4 of....
Gento Drogba Figo
------------ADS
Is an absolute nightmare for even the greatest of defences. Here @Don Alfredo has a few question marks over his.
His best defender is Krol, however he's mostly used as a left back meaning it will be down to Rosato to challenge Drogba aerially most of the time.
The full backs aren't anything to write home about either up against two positional GOATs in Figo and Gento. Gento in particular doesn't seem to get the acclaim he deserves and he'll likely provide so many opportunities for Drogba to score.
A front 4 of....
Gento Drogba Figo
------------ADS
Is an absolute nightmare for even the greatest of defences. Here @Don Alfredo has a few question marks over his.
His best defender is Krol, however he's mostly used as a left back meaning it will be down to Rosato to challenge Drogba aerially most of the time.
The full backs aren't anything to write home about either up against two positional GOATs in Figo and Gento. Gento in particular doesn't seem to get the acclaim he deserves and he'll likely provide so many opportunities for Drogba to score.
You misunderstand. Schewini is the player who needs to dictate the game from the deep and Deschamps will sit behind and cover between the lines. Schweini's ability to run games from the middle outweighs anything Guti can ever hope to bring to the table videos or not. Schweini was the midfield engine running the game at club and country level and here he's relegated to defending between lines while effin Guti is tasked with doing it!
Deschamps is better at the covering between lines than Schweini and Schweini is better at running the game from deep than Guti.
No they are both tasked with it. I think people are getting confused with what I'm expecting due to the focus being totally on Guti.
I don't expect anyone to run the game here. I expect to sit deep and on getting the ball find one of my front 4 for an explosive counter attack. High risk passing will be a constant throughout. If we lose the ball then we fall back into shape and defend the space again. I'd expect don to have a massive share of the possession and struggle to implement the press his game is built upon, due to being bypassed extremely quickly. It wouldn't be able to be bypassed as quickly with a less able play maker next to Schweinsteiger, as I'd have to rotate the ball to someone capable of making the pass.
EDIT: To address the bolded, whilst everything you've said is true it doesn't address the fact that Guti is better than Deschamps at springing counter attacks and that's what both him and Schweinsteiger are tasked with.
Imo that is debatable.. I really like Guti and rate him but if you are sitting back, you almost want somebody like Deschamps to be disciplined and break up plays with simple passes to AdS/Figo/Gento.
I don't expect the passes to be simple though, I want high risk passing straight away
It sounds like you are intentionally sacrificing some consistency for the big play potential? Like with Deschamps you might get 10 counterattacks but with Guti you might only get 6 but you will have more big play potential with the 6?
I can see the thinking there but I just don't see that as the best approach for this match. You have more natural goals in your attackers than Don does imo. So to play to that strength I'd think you'd want to reinforce the consistency to maximize the advantage you have with Di Stefano with a historical teammate.
Yeah to a degree, I'd get more of the ball with Deschamps in there, however the quality of those attacks wouldn't be as high as they'd take longer to progress. Against a high press you don't want that and speed is essential to prevent them regrouping when out of shape from the press.
One of the biggest wastes of talent i've ever seen
As good as any midfielder i've seen when he wanted to play
One of the biggest wastes of talent i've ever seen
As good as any midfielder i've seen when he wanted to play
And with regards to this particular game, what would his impact be?
Right let's have a crack at explaining how the attacking side of my team will work.
As explained throughout the thread, I expect super direct, quick, counter attacking football.
DROGBA
Drogba as a focal point will bring the wingers around him into play.
The guy always produced on the biggest stage; it was what made him the great that he is held up as today. Whilst regarded mostly for his ability to bring others into play his goal scoring record also stands up on its own as a consistent contributor.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.10...r-drogba-is-the-ultimate-big-game-player/amp/
10 massive finals played and 10 goals scored. He always delivers.
When he's not scoring goals he'll be using the other side of his game to provide a platform for the other 3 GOATs around him.
GENTO
A traditional flying winger, he is in the side to provide speed and dribbling on the flanks. He will supply constant ammunition for Drogba to finish with his impressive heading ability.
Don Alfredo seems to want his full backs to push forward a lot, Gento won't be tracking them back.
Due to being up the pitch already he should have a lot of space to exploit, dragging centre backs out to him and tormenting them.
If the build up ends up slower he's up against Besonov, a player I know little about, however on my limited research on him, it seems that he is an attacking full back that scored quite a few goals. There is no mention of his defensive prowess so you'd expect this to be a massive mismatch here.
https://thesefootballtimes.co/2015/...-paco-gento-the-habitual-european-cup-winner/
FIGO
My opposite winger is another GOAT in his own right. However, his game is vastly different from Gento making it a perfect mixture in attack.
Figo will drift inside when ADS has gone deep. Playing closer to Drogba will allow easier link up play and give Demyanenko a headache is deciding whether to track him inside or hold the shape of the team. When he does come inside Krol will likely pick him up which to be fair is a good match up and should be an interesting battle.
DI STEFANO
The fulcrum of the side and in a perfect position to exploit a midfield without a true defensive minded midfielder, no matter how highly you rate Vidal. Coming from deeper positions and pushing up past the striker he literally had it all and would have no trouble deciding games on his own. Surrounded by the rest of the quartet he's primed to take this game by the scruff of the neck like no other player on the pitch is capable of doing.
As explained throughout the thread, I expect super direct, quick, counter attacking football.
DROGBA
Drogba as a focal point will bring the wingers around him into play.
The guy always produced on the biggest stage; it was what made him the great that he is held up as today. Whilst regarded mostly for his ability to bring others into play his goal scoring record also stands up on its own as a consistent contributor.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.10...r-drogba-is-the-ultimate-big-game-player/amp/
10 massive finals played and 10 goals scored. He always delivers.
When he's not scoring goals he'll be using the other side of his game to provide a platform for the other 3 GOATs around him.
GENTO
A traditional flying winger, he is in the side to provide speed and dribbling on the flanks. He will supply constant ammunition for Drogba to finish with his impressive heading ability.
Don Alfredo seems to want his full backs to push forward a lot, Gento won't be tracking them back.
Due to being up the pitch already he should have a lot of space to exploit, dragging centre backs out to him and tormenting them.
If the build up ends up slower he's up against Besonov, a player I know little about, however on my limited research on him, it seems that he is an attacking full back that scored quite a few goals. There is no mention of his defensive prowess so you'd expect this to be a massive mismatch here.
Despite such big names in the team, Paco’s brilliance on the wing provided many a goal for his more illustrious teammates. He was no slouch himself, scoring 128 times in 428 appearances in the league, a world-class return for a winger. He had lightning speed and got to loose balls first, despite opponents having a head start on him, and he possessed two great feet and liked taking powerful long shots with either leg. Although known for his speed, he possessed a magical left foot with great, close control in tight situations and dribbled his way past two or three players before disappearing again down the wing to put in another inch-perfect cross. Playing in the shadows of more famous names, it speaks volumes about Gento that his medal haul more impressive than those of Di Stéfano or Puskás.
https://thesefootballtimes.co/2015/...-paco-gento-the-habitual-european-cup-winner/
FIGO
My opposite winger is another GOAT in his own right. However, his game is vastly different from Gento making it a perfect mixture in attack.
Figo will drift inside when ADS has gone deep. Playing closer to Drogba will allow easier link up play and give Demyanenko a headache is deciding whether to track him inside or hold the shape of the team. When he does come inside Krol will likely pick him up which to be fair is a good match up and should be an interesting battle.
DI STEFANO
The fulcrum of the side and in a perfect position to exploit a midfield without a true defensive minded midfielder, no matter how highly you rate Vidal. Coming from deeper positions and pushing up past the striker he literally had it all and would have no trouble deciding games on his own. Surrounded by the rest of the quartet he's primed to take this game by the scruff of the neck like no other player on the pitch is capable of doing.
UEFA.com: Alfredo Di Stéfano was alongside you for the first five European Cups that you won. How would you describe him?
Gento: Alfredo Di Stéfano was like my older brother. I used to look up to him. I was very young – I came here when I was 19 and he was 27. He did things I'd simply never seen before. The sacrifices he used to make throughout a match ... he was the player that almost created Real Madrid's style of play. He was something else out on the pitch. When I was young, I'd never seen a player like him with his attributes and such a sparkling style that he always had. He did back-heels and one-twos. He was fabulous.
Di Stéfano was always the bright spark in matches. He always liked winning no matter what the game was. He'd play marbles or basketball and he wanted to win. He took that enthusiasm and battling spirit from the pitch with him everywhere. Those who played alongside him owe so much to him. The club too.
Gento: Alfredo Di Stéfano was like my older brother. I used to look up to him. I was very young – I came here when I was 19 and he was 27. He did things I'd simply never seen before. The sacrifices he used to make throughout a match ... he was the player that almost created Real Madrid's style of play. He was something else out on the pitch. When I was young, I'd never seen a player like him with his attributes and such a sparkling style that he always had. He did back-heels and one-twos. He was fabulous.
Di Stéfano was always the bright spark in matches. He always liked winning no matter what the game was. He'd play marbles or basketball and he wanted to win. He took that enthusiasm and battling spirit from the pitch with him everywhere. Those who played alongside him owe so much to him. The club too.
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One of the biggest wastes of talent i've ever seen
As good as any midfielder i've seen when he wanted to play
Jesus giorno, you could be a bit more subtle. There is still game going.
Anyway, you didn't deserve his genius!
Don't know, don't care
The team with Di Stefano is clearly better but you guys been talking about tactics and i don't even know what's going on to be honest
good game @P-Nut0712
Yeah good game mate, good luck going forward