I suppose there was a fair bit of tinkering, but the logic that he was writing it as a way to make some money on the side makes sense for an intelligent bloke being paid the pocket money players got in those days.
Sheep draft - NoPace vs Edgar Allan Pillow
- Thread starter Balu
- Start date
I suppose there was a fair bit of tinkering, but the logic that he was writing it as a way to make some money on the side makes sense for an intelligent bloke being paid the pocket money players got in those days.
Delete it now or it will cost you even more votes
Paintsil may not be Lahm but I reckon it's unfair on the bastard to claim he's positively out of position (if that is what's being suggested). He can play as a DM of sorts - as in, he HAS played as a DM of sorts AFAIK.
Aye, that's true. Duncan was basically on room and board compared to today's players. And he was already a big name - so, yeah, that is possible.
EAP's big names will get him votes but I personally feel he'd look a lot more solid with Djemba in there and Panstil at RB in a back four (where he'd be directly up against another sheep). Liedholm and Toure should boss the midfield (never thought I'd say that sentence in an all time draft).
I rate your defence higher than most would, that's why I mention it. Forster was indeeed a superb man-marker and Chumpitaz is very much the sort you would want trying to stop Baggio, a very complete defender whom I'd have playing ahead of Passarella in harms' side. I think they can jointly deal with those two quite effectively in the few chances they will get if you cut the supply lines properly. Angloma is ppretty much free to tuck in as well, and he too was a very good defender.
Think you are missing a trick though emphasising Liedholm's passing and overlooking his contribution adding numbers further up the pitch and getting involved in executing the approach play into the box. Leave Yaya to his Barca holding/distribution role so he can pick up Müller or Baggio dropping deep in midfield to shake off Chumpitaz's marking. Sorted, more fluency back to front against a side with a broken back (wonder why it's called spine?).
Thomas Müller is a master of finding space. With both his CM's sitting deep, Muller will be able to find space to operate in much more freely. With him floating around, I will be able to bring the ball from defence to offence much more freely than my opponent.
I hate to quote from BR, but this data seems to hold up:
He is unique in being able to maintain his lethality despite having a floating role. I expect him to play a big difference in this game. By dropping a bit to pick up balls and double teaming with Jairzinho.Baggio, his movement and Pace would be far more lethal than any deep passes from Liedholm/Yaya.
I hate to quote from BR, but this data seems to hold up:
He is unique in being able to maintain his lethality despite having a floating role. I expect him to play a big difference in this game. By dropping a bit to pick up balls and double teaming with Jairzinho.Baggio, his movement and Pace would be far more lethal than any deep passes from Liedholm/Yaya.
I don't think he is out of position. I just can't see how he has joy against Liedholm while fully taking care of Tshabalala and thus preventing Desailly from having to play wide most of the time. Thaat's a stretch for you...
Yups, and he still needs Rocco
It's very much a situation whereby playing all three sheep would probably be the right call in terms of attributes, probably at the expense of Müller-lite.Tbh, Liedholm is a much bigger threat than T-Shab. As I mentioned before, I don't think T-Shab can expect overlapping runs from FB with Jairzinho operating there. I fully expect that support T-Shab gets to be sporadic at best as any decent playmaker will try to pass to his best player (Becks, in this case). Whatever threat T-Shab is able to generate with the scraps will be handled well and fair by my defence.
No quicker way of draft suicide in a United forum than putting Djemba on the pitch. Again having played as Left Half, I prefer Rocco to do a better job than DJx2.5 vote for eap. All from scan voters. Where are the managers?
Three points I would like to touch upon:
Possession: A sit deep and counter strategy give the benefit of better possession to opponents. Here despite having a relatively underrated midfield, I will have more possession to make use of.
Better Attack: I simple do not need many chances to score. The Muller's, Jairzinho and Baggio are all incredible talented goal scorers and any of them can make a difference here. With better possession, I have as above, I surely will have more opportunities and will score more.
Counter's: Imo, my team is better suited to counter's. In case he has two attack minded midfielders sitting deep. If NoPace has anyone of them moving up, I have Muller, the master of spaces waiting to take advantage. Muller's floating capabilities and pace/trickery make him incredibly difficult to defend against.
Possession: A sit deep and counter strategy give the benefit of better possession to opponents. Here despite having a relatively underrated midfield, I will have more possession to make use of.
Better Attack: I simple do not need many chances to score. The Muller's, Jairzinho and Baggio are all incredible talented goal scorers and any of them can make a difference here. With better possession, I have as above, I surely will have more opportunities and will score more.
Counter's: Imo, my team is better suited to counter's. In case he has two attack minded midfielders sitting deep. If NoPace has anyone of them moving up, I have Muller, the master of spaces waiting to take advantage. Muller's floating capabilities and pace/trickery make him incredibly difficult to defend against.
@Edgar Allan Pillow have to say you have done an excellent job setting up this team.
EAP is the only one who could win with only sheep.
Yeah, that's bollocks, of course. He's crap, after all. Not out of position - but crap.
That midfield is a bit of a shocker, really - as a whole. Not tactically - I agree very much that Edgar has done a decent job setting 'em up. But the quality is, frankly, close to piss poor. Ancelotti, a pretty underwhelming player in his own right given the context, is paired with a sheep. Another sheep operates in something like his halfback role of old - but his pendant is a pure, offensive winger (I don't buy that he'll be of much defensive use here at all).
The rest of the team is fine and dandy, with Müller in the hole and pure quality in front of him. But the middle of the park stinks in terms of quality and in part also in terms of roles-for-the-boys. It's too shabby for my money.
If that sounds harsh, keep in mind that I ain't attacking Edgar's tactical dispositions as such - his hands are tied to a large extent, obviously.
The rest of the team is fine and dandy, with Müller in the hole and pure quality in front of him. But the middle of the park stinks in terms of quality and in part also in terms of roles-for-the-boys. It's too shabby for my money.
If that sounds harsh, keep in mind that I ain't attacking Edgar's tactical dispositions as such - his hands are tied to a large extent, obviously.
Wait, why do you think you'll have more possession? This is going to have to be bloody good if you're going to convince me that Pantsil and his merry men will beat a tiki-taka proven Toure and a passing god like Liedholm in the using possession stakes!
I've actually seen Pantsil a few times in Israel, and he was really bad
I don't think I've ever seen him in that position, wiki claims he's DM/full back but I reckon I've seen him mostly play CB/LB.
Anyway, EAP is indeed puting a great fight but he's two sheep are two much for me, plus NP's sheep is really well positioned to do nothing and not disturb too much
Leaning towards NP, but will give EAP's team another chance and think about it for a bit
I don't think I've ever seen him in that position, wiki claims he's DM/full back but I reckon I've seen him mostly play CB/LB.
Anyway, EAP is indeed puting a great fight but he's two sheep are two much for me, plus NP's sheep is really well positioned to do nothing and not disturb too much
Leaning towards NP, but will give EAP's team another chance and think about it for a bit
I've voted for NoPace for now, but I was surprised to see quite how formidable a collection of talent EAP assembled around the sheep. He's lined up in an impressively eye-catching formation too, but there's a bit too much 'creative licence' in his tactics for me to ignore. I'll keep following the thread though and I'm open to changing my mind.
This is how I see it. There's just not enough 2-way quality in the massive area of pitch between his 3 CB's and his front 3. He'll be giving up possession and losing runners in that area and getting in trouble with his transitions in both directions. Jairzinho won't track back and if he does it, he won't do it well. Rocco was out of Serie A by what should have been his prime, Pantsil was always poor defensively and is being tasked with a role requiring great tactical intelligence and Ancelotti will struggle having to go out wide so much.
Basically, when my attacks break down, I'll still have a solid base defensively. When EAP's break down, it will be chaos, and with Rocco-Ancelotti-Pantsil covering a massive part of the middle of the pitch, he will lose the ball and I will have chances for quick counters, and I have 3 quality passers in Liedholm, Toure and Beckham to pick a pass to predators in Sanchez and Rummennige.
Went with each eap, think he deserves some credit to have such a strong side despite the sheep's.
That's the "second sheep" effect. You know you have no chance in hell unless you go for the big'uns. It also helped a truckload got sheep in the first round and spent most of the draft being cautious and trying to avoid the dreaded second sheep which would have to be fielded.
There were a couple of rounds were one pair looked primed for a massacre... so no one picked them. Baresi-Baggio, then he could have got Müller and Pelé...
Instead he went for Neeskens, had him blocked, and wound up with Müller and Djemba-Djemba. Well, as mentioned in OP he is playing a 'sitting deep and trying to hit the strikers' strategy. You can't have expect to sit deep and have bulk possession.
Neither Liedholm or Yaya are DM's in strictest sense. Putting two DLP's together and expecting a defensive shield is not going to work, not against my attack. If both Nils and Yaya are sitting deep, then you expect Beckham and maybe Rummenigge to drop deeper to pick up balls, which dilutes the attacking threat.
Finally despite his advantage in midfield, his 2 front men have to navigate through my defensive 5 to score. And here Ancelotti and Pantsil have been regular DM's and not out of their depth here. Behind them 2 is my fantastic back 3. I really don't see how he'll score here. Expecting Nils to deliver long pass from downfield all to the box? Or Beckham to get the ball, beat Rocco and deliver crosses with Baresi getting beaten?
Importantly, Thomas Muller. Master of finding space. His will pick up a short pass from Ancelotti (totally unmarked in the middle) and interact with Jairzinho or Baggio setting up far better opportunities to score.
A midfielder, hand picked by one of the best managers ever to pull strings from the middle.
A midfielder who has pulled his weight in one of most successful club teams ever.
A midfielder who has 2 European Cups, 3 Serie A titles, 5 Copa Italia titles and a WC Bronze medal.
Underwhelming, yeah! He is not exactly the fanciest names, but definitely not one to be underrated.
Why is this a advantage? His sheep is totally out of the play, whereas mine have important jobs in running interference against Beckham and Liedholm. Liedholm in a DLP tactic will not have the usual free role and so will be easy to mark. Becks (not exactly famous for taking a player and beating him one vs one) will have Rocco, a left half with good workrate running interference. My sheeps will impact this match so much better to my advantage. Jairzinho occupying his FB will isolate his winger most of the match with no positive impact to his team.
1. Offensively, your problem will be getting the ball forward. Unless you want to just hit long balls, you have Rocco-Ancelotti-Pantsil-Jairzinho as your middle 4 and only the latter has the skills on the ball to really excel at getting it forward. Thomas Muller is a fine player, but he's not that great at dropping deep to dictate play and create. You need David Silva or someone like that, who can constantly get open and turn or hit one-touch passes to weave together a broken side.
2. Defensively, your problem is the formation and the
Rocco-Ancelotti-Pantsil-Jairzinho having to handle Beckham, Toure, Liedholm, Tshabalala, Angloma and Camacho when they do make a run on the break. Your 3 CB's will have to deal with Rummennigge and Sanchez running at them or making runs in behind whenever I counter, and while they'll do it well, even the best CB's need protection from the midfield, or we're looking at goals, cards and penalties.
2. Defensively, your problem is the formation and the
Rocco-Ancelotti-Pantsil-Jairzinho having to handle Beckham, Toure, Liedholm, Tshabalala, Angloma and Camacho when they do make a run on the break. Your 3 CB's will have to deal with Rummennigge and Sanchez running at them or making runs in behind whenever I counter, and while they'll do it well, even the best CB's need protection from the midfield, or we're looking at goals, cards and penalties.
You want to give a sheep a simple job that he has done effectively before, against a weaker opponent. Not a complicated, important, tactically difficult job against great players.
Also, you have 2 sheeps (Pantsil + Rocco) and Ancelotti, whereas I have one sheep and then my weakest next 2 players are probably Angloma, who was a really good player and either Camacho, one of the all-time great Real Madrid defenders, or Yaya Toure. Over 90 minutes that would prove telling, especially with the high-risk formation you've chosen.
I'm astonished to see EAP leading here, this is unbelievable to me. Well done EAP for doing such a great job here.
I don't think Muller will have problems doing that. He is a master of pulling players out of position, dropping deep to link up play and bring Jairzinho into play much more often. With Baggio ready as 2nd striker to occupy his space if he drops deep, the attacking spine is quite strong there.
Tbh, I think my Sheep has a less sensitive job than yours. If I was Liedholm or Yaya, I would definitely want to pass to the better player in Beckham. Even if they did pass to T-Shab, expecting him to deliver crosses like a top winger is not what you expect in a sheep. Mine just run interference. Liedholm needs time and space to create. With Pantisl on him he will not have both consistently.
Why is Nils supposed to be so static? Did @NoPace specifically say he would sit deep at all times and just ping balls? Genuine question, can't be arsed to re-read the whole thing.
Baresi wasn't exactly impreious aerially. Made up for it with a lot of other qualities, and has good partners to deal with that, but invoking Baresi in aerial battles against Hugo Sánchez sounds a bit off.
Fixed
Even if Liedholm is playing as a deep lying playmaker, do we really expect Panstil to mark him out of the game? I don't see how anyone can back Panstil in that duel.
Have to say that sounds quite underwhelming, particularly when Camacho most likely won't and shouldn't join. There's no need for him to overload the flank with Tshabalala to make 2 vs.0
Pantsil can't mark out Heskey, let alone Liedholm.
He is, absolutely, putting up a good fight. It actually makes it hard to vote against him.
Hmmm. EAP has done a brilliant job here making best of what he's got to work with. Impressive it has to be said. His back 3 looks excellent with his wide CBs being pacey, athletic and suitable enough to play those roles. Brilliant GOAT attack as well.
In saying that, his midfield leaves a lot to be desired. Like Chester and harms correctly pointed out the halfback roles are bloody demanding both offensively and defensively and Ancelotti doesn't quite strike me as having the athleticm or dynamism to play that role to the highest of levels whilst having decent technique and passing abilities. Pantsil is athletic enough but doesn't have the tactical intelligence to play such a exacting role.
Two of his weaker players playing too much of a demanding and integral roles for my liking.
I liked NoPace's team and his individuals but I have to say I'm not too convinced by the balance of the team. Firstly, the bridge between his deep midfield and strike duo seems to be, ermm don't know how to put it, not connected well? It seems too one dimensional and seems solely reliant on Becks, with Tshabala not exactly a creative genius and Liedholm and Toure too deep for my liking. Secondly a midfield duo of Liedholm and Toure isn't the most complementary of pairings.
Personally I would have played Beckam in a tucked in third midfielder role and driving forward or to the right flank to get in crosses ala Di Maria. Gives the midfield trio of sorts more solidity via Becks industry and presence whilst allowing Toure and esp Liedholm more freedom as well.
Would have also played Rummenigge on his inside right role cutting in. You'd ideally want powerful and direct runners from out wide against EAP's 3 CB set up (with Rummenigge doing a better job than Becks in this regard) and more midfield runners to capitalize on the chaos that the wide runners produce (a deep lying midfield duo is hardly going to help). Basically a more fluid system instead of the rather rigid one it looks like he's playing. That plays right into EAP's set up.
Besides, playing this central forward duo, heavily reliant on longish ball type service is playing right into EAP's hands as well. Rummenigge and Sanchez will be facing a central wall of Desailly, Baresi and Montero. I can't honestly see those 2, with that type of service, getting the better of that GOAT defense.
Leaning towards EAP despite his midfield weaknesses but will hold my vote for now.
Edit: I also feel for NoPace as his team has some gems who don't half get the credit they deserve. Liedholm is a genius and one of the best playmakers to have ever played the game. He also has the versatility and workrate (as I only recently realised) to play in a midfield duo but it is a waste of his glorious talents.
Chumpitaz is a GOAT cb and since the 60s there have only been 2 South American CBs who have been better than him. Namely Figueroa and Passarella. Doesn't get enough credit as well. Same thing for Sanchez despite being an absolute goalscoring machine. Add that to caf's favourite Toure, you can see his team getting underrated overall. He really needs to make a better case for some of these guys.
In saying that, his midfield leaves a lot to be desired. Like Chester and harms correctly pointed out the halfback roles are bloody demanding both offensively and defensively and Ancelotti doesn't quite strike me as having the athleticm or dynamism to play that role to the highest of levels whilst having decent technique and passing abilities. Pantsil is athletic enough but doesn't have the tactical intelligence to play such a exacting role.
Two of his weaker players playing too much of a demanding and integral roles for my liking.
I liked NoPace's team and his individuals but I have to say I'm not too convinced by the balance of the team. Firstly, the bridge between his deep midfield and strike duo seems to be, ermm don't know how to put it, not connected well? It seems too one dimensional and seems solely reliant on Becks, with Tshabala not exactly a creative genius and Liedholm and Toure too deep for my liking. Secondly a midfield duo of Liedholm and Toure isn't the most complementary of pairings.
Personally I would have played Beckam in a tucked in third midfielder role and driving forward or to the right flank to get in crosses ala Di Maria. Gives the midfield trio of sorts more solidity via Becks industry and presence whilst allowing Toure and esp Liedholm more freedom as well.
Would have also played Rummenigge on his inside right role cutting in. You'd ideally want powerful and direct runners from out wide against EAP's 3 CB set up (with Rummenigge doing a better job than Becks in this regard) and more midfield runners to capitalize on the chaos that the wide runners produce (a deep lying midfield duo is hardly going to help). Basically a more fluid system instead of the rather rigid one it looks like he's playing. That plays right into EAP's set up.
Besides, playing this central forward duo, heavily reliant on longish ball type service is playing right into EAP's hands as well. Rummenigge and Sanchez will be facing a central wall of Desailly, Baresi and Montero. I can't honestly see those 2, with that type of service, getting the better of that GOAT defense.
Leaning towards EAP despite his midfield weaknesses but will hold my vote for now.
Edit: I also feel for NoPace as his team has some gems who don't half get the credit they deserve. Liedholm is a genius and one of the best playmakers to have ever played the game. He also has the versatility and workrate (as I only recently realised) to play in a midfield duo but it is a waste of his glorious talents.
Chumpitaz is a GOAT cb and since the 60s there have only been 2 South American CBs who have been better than him. Namely Figueroa and Passarella. Doesn't get enough credit as well. Same thing for Sanchez despite being an absolute goalscoring machine. Add that to caf's favourite Toure, you can see his team getting underrated overall. He really needs to make a better case for some of these guys.
Last edited:
Agreed, but I can see a point in the game where the ball is out right with Beckham and Angloma and Tshabalala is in the box being marked by Desailly and Camacho realizes the whole left-side of the box is open with only a switched off Jairzinho between him and the goal.
Camacho won't come forward a lot, but when he does, it should be profitable. When Jairzinho is on Tshabalala, Camacho can confidently step forward, totally unmolested. I think he and Angloma will be able to start attacks and hit crosses or balls into Sanchez and Rummennigge while being fairly unmolested.
Score settled:
This thread is just packed with ridiculous statements.
Leaning toward Edgar.