Serie A 90's Draft Round 1 - Tuppet vs Gio/Theon

[Tuppet]

Just a few quick points on why my team should win -

1. Width - Its not just an abstract concept, wide play is absolutely essential in the game and is very useful for counter attacking teams. Diamond & other narrow formations require really good attacking full backs to pull it off. In this draft this would mean Brehme, Cafu, Zanetti etc which my opponents lack. I've got 2 very good defensive midfielders in front of 2 world class CBs to make it really hard for any team playing through middle to pick us apart.

On the other hand I have 3 best crossers on the pitch in Brehme, Hassler & Petrescu and in Gullit a monster in air as well as Voller who was pretty good as well. My attack has better variety and should be able to stretch opposition defense more often.

2. Left side - I have posted it before, but Gullit was at his goal scoring peak in 90s, he was just a phenomenal player and with his unique blend of technique & physicality, able to punish any defense. As he showed when he lead Sampdoria to victory against Baresi / Maldini led Milan team by both scoring and assisting. Behind him Brehme is one of the finest attacking wingback of all time. In 90-91 season he was very much in his peak when his Inter side finished 2nd, level with Milan on points & won the UEFA cup. This combination would prove too hot to handle for the right side of G/T's defense.

3. Creativity - Overall my side is brimming with attacking creativity that would be very hard to stop. In Gullit, Scifo & Hassler I have three players who can take the playmaking responsibilities. Its important since even if say Deschamps get to grips with Scifo, we have a tricky Hassler who came third in Ballon D'or during this run take over and create chances. And outside of these Brehme can also do the playmaking from the left side. My squad's creativity is hard to stop since we hace creative options from both wings, while most of G/T's threat comes through the middle.

Also Hassler might be getting under radar, but in the 90s he was one of the very best attacking midfielders around and is the best wide player on the pitch along with Brehme -

 

[Tuppet]

On the Voller point, I did think about playing Pappin and would have played him if Coppa Italia was not considered. Its not just the number of goals, he scored in both legs of final as well as round of 16 en route to winning the whole trophy. He was instrumental in winning the trophy and his contribution should not be judged only by the quantity.

 

[Theon]

Both of your teams are very good but Tuppet’s left side and the Gullit/Völler partnership was the reason for my vote. Brehme, Berti and Gullit will cause your right side of Bruno, Cravero and Mazinho too many problems.

• Zenga was obviously class but goalkeepers mean feck all in this draft.

Cheers for the comments - the whole reason I asked is that I was surprised at some of the manager votes given their knowledge of the theme (always expected to lose some scan votes).

In terms of 90s Serie A performances I honestly think we clearly have the better side across the park.

Responding to the above I kinda agree that people will be voting on the basis of Voller / Gullit, which does indeed look sexy as hell on paper. Similar to your match up with Seedorf though, it's clearly not a Voller at the peak of his powers, which is reflected in his two eligible seasons where he hit just 19 goals in 60 games before being transferred.

I don't see how that's too much for Cravero to deal with who conceded just 20 goals in the entire 91/92 season.

As an comparison Blanc conceded 36 goals and 40 goals in his two seasons at Inter / Napoli (twice the number of Cravero) and he's up against Ruben Sosa (the best goalscorer on the park) and a Ballon d'Or winning George Weah.

That's the far bigger threat.

 

[Tuppet]

Cheers for the comments - the whole reason I asked is that I was surprised at some of the manager votes given their knowledge of the theme (always expected to lose some scan votes).

In terms of 90s Serie A performances I honestly think we clearly have the better side across the park.

Responding to the above I kinda agree that people will be voting on the basis of Voller / Gullit, which does indeed look sexy as hell on paper. Similar to your match up with Seedorf though, it's clearly not a Voller at the peak of his powers, which is reflected in his two eligible seasons where he hit just 19 goals in 60 games before being transferred.

I don't see how that's too much for Cravero to deal with who conceded just 20 goals in the entire 91/92 season.

As an comparison Blanc conceded 36 goals and 40 goals in his two seasons at Inter / Napoli (twice the number of Cravero) and he's up against Ruben Sosa (the best goalscorer on the park) and a Ballon d'Or winning George Weah.

That's the far bigger threat.

Cravero also conceded 51 & 40 goals in his next two seasons. If we are cherry picking just one season then I'll take Voller who was the top scorer of Roma in 1990-91, while his team won Coppa Itallia & reached UEFA cup final. You already made this point with Brehme's one season not being enough to judge but now want to do the same for Cravero.

 

[Theon]

You already made this point with Brehme's one season not being enough to judge but now want to do the same for Cravero.

That’s absolutely not true Tuppet - read the posts on Cravero. He has two seasons here (over 40 games, which is the theme of the draft).

In 91/92 Cravero conceded just 20 goals (second lowest tally of the entire decade).

In 90/91 Cravero was rated as the third best player in the entire league.

Serie A 1990/91: highest rated players

And worth pointing out he didn’t do this at Milan, Inter or Juve. It was at Torino.

It’s a far higher peak than Serie A Blanc reached.

 

[Theon]

Worth pointing out in that 90/91 season Cravero again conceded just 29 goals - significantly fewer than Blanc.

And it’s not as if Cravero is even our best defender. He’s only got Franco effin’ Baresi next to him.

But apparently a non-peak Voller is causing them all sorts of problems. Meanwhile at the other end a Ballon d’Or winning Weah can’t get anything out of an inferior defence. Go figure.

 

[Oaencha]

Cheers for the comments - the whole reason I asked is that I was surprised at some of the manager votes given their knowledge of the theme (always expected to lose some scan votes).

In terms of 90s Serie A performances I honestly think we clearly have the better side across the park.

Responding to the above I kinda agree that people will be voting on the basis of Voller / Gullit, which does indeed look sexy as hell on paper. Similar to your match up with Seedorf though, it's clearly not a Voller at the peak of his powers, which is reflected in his two eligible seasons where he hit just 19 goals in 60 games before being transferred.

I don't see how that's too much for Cravero to deal with who conceded just 20 goals in the entire 91/92 season.

As an comparison Blanc conceded 36 goals and 40 goals in his two seasons at Inter / Napoli (twice the number of Cravero) and he's up against Ruben Sosa (the best goalscorer on the park) and a Ballon d'Or winning George Weah.

That's the far bigger threat.

That didn't look quite right so I did some research. Those stats don’t paint the full picture.

Roberto Cravero in Serie A

1990/1991 - Torino - 30 apps / Torino final GA - 29
1991/1992 - Torino - 24 apps / Torino final GA - 20
1992/1993 - Lazio - 30 apps / Lazio final GA - 51
1993/1994 - Lazio - 29 apps / Lazio final GA - 40
1994/1995 - Lazio - 23 apps / Lazio final GA - 34
1995/1996 - Torino - 20 apps / Torino final GA - 46

Laurent Blanc in Serie A

1991/1992 - Napoli - 31 apps / Napoli final GA - 40
1999/2000 - Inter - 34 apps / Inter final GA - 36

Your example of the 1991/1992 season shows Cravero’s record is 24/20 and Blanc’s is 31/40. If you take into account the extra games Blanc played it’s not too bad.

In the next season (1992/1993) when Cravero moved to Lazio, his record is 30/52. That’s much worse.

Finally... Blanc’s record in the 1999/2000 season is 34/36. Not nearly as bad as you’re making out.

 

[Gio]

Problem with Blanc is that he has one good season with Inter - albeit at 34 - and one poor season with Napoli earlier in his career when he was freshly converted from playing further up the park. He got binned by Napoli and sent back on loan to France due to his inability to adapt to the Italian game as a defender. It's a pretty thin CV relative to the other central defenders on the park. You also have the more worrying problem about a 34-year-old Blanc facing a brutally quick attack hurtling forward on the counter.

 

[harms]

I think Blanc also won Inter's player of the year in 1999/2000 (and was quite good in those few games that I've rewatched of them recently).
Although Weah is a monstrous player to face, of course, and an ideally suited one to face a slow-ish ageing defender

 

[Gio]

That didn't look quite right so I did some research. Those stats don’t paint the full picture.

Roberto Cravero in Serie A

1990/1991 - Torino - 30 apps / Torino final GA - 29
1991/1992 - Torino - 24 apps / Torino final GA - 20
1992/1993 - Lazio - 30 apps / Lazio final GA - 51
1993/1994 - Lazio - 29 apps / Lazio final GA - 40
1994/1995 - Lazio - 23 apps / Lazio final GA - 34
1995/1996 - Torino - 20 apps / Torino final GA - 46

Laurent Blanc in Serie A

1991/1992 - Napoli - 31 apps / Napoli final GA - 40
1999/2000 - Inter - 34 apps / Inter final GA - 36

Your example of the 1991/1992 season shows Cravero’s record is 24/20 and Blanc’s is 40/31. If you take into account the extra games Blanc played, their record is reasonably close.

In the next season (1992/1993) when Cravero moved to Lazio, his record is 30/52. That’s much worse.

Finally... Blanc’s record in the 1999/2000 season is 34/36. Not nearly as bad as you’re making out.

These figures aren't right at all. Torino played 34 games and conceded 20 goals in 1991/92 - the second best record behind Baresi's Milan of the entire decade. Cravero played 24 games that season and Torino conceded 14 goals in those games.

It was a defensively incredible season by Torino and Cravero was absolutely fundamental to it. His leadership and defensive acumen are precisely why they kept such a tight ship.

 

[Gio]

I think Blanc also won Inter's player of the year in 1999/2000 (and was quite good in those few games that I've rewatched of them recently).
Although Weah is a monstrous player to face, of course, and an ideally suited one to face a slow-ish ageing defender

I don't have any issues rating Blanc on his Inter stint at all. One season just seems a bit light all in all given the sustained service on the other side.

 

[harms]

I don't have any issues rating Blanc on his Inter stint at all. One season just seems a bit light all in all given the sustained service on the other side.

Don't think that the longevity should matter that much. If the peak was good enough, he was good enough, you're getting an actual player (say, Blanc from 99/00), not a career. If we're comparing players with similar peaks longevity is a bonus, of course

Glad to see that the game is getting much closer though

 

[Gio]

I think one of our strengths is how almost everybody played their best football in Serie A in the 1990s. Only Giannini has a claim to have been better in the late 1980s, and even he had a couple of excellent campaigns, particularly in 1992/93 when he scored 16 goals in all competitions for a struggling Roma side. But everyone else really hit form during the decade. And it's not just that they hit some good form in Serie A, they sustained it too. Almost the entire XI has spent several seasons in the league.

In contrast, I'm not sure Tuppet's XI has the same strength of 1990s Serie A performances. Perhaps half a dozen - Brehme (86-90), Blanc (96-98), Berti (87-90), Tommasi (99-03), Gullit (87-89), Voller (85-90) hit their peaks outside of the scope. Arguably another half dozen or so have played limited football in 90s Serie A - Brehme (2 seasons), Petrescu (2 seasons), Voller (2 seasons), Scifo (2 seasons), Konsel (3 seasons).

I'm not saying longevity should be critical in deciding your vote, but there should be some recognition given to players who sustained form for more than a single season. If not, why the hell did nobody pick Igor Protti who had one of the best individual seasons of any strikers in the pool?

Right, I'll step down from my 'spirit of the draft' moral high ground - it's pretty cramped up here next to @Moby and @Pat_Mustard

 

[Theon]

That didn't look quite right so I did some research. Those stats don’t paint the full picture.

Those stats aren't correct at all mate.

Cravero has two peak seasons where conceded 29 and 20 goals for Torino - and was rated as the third best player in the entire league. Blanc conceded 40 and 36 goals during his stint in Serie A. Worth pointing out Cravero achieved that whilst at Torino - not Inter Milan. It's an exceptional achievement.

Also worth pointing out that he's not even our best defender, that's obviously Baresi.

 

[Theon]

I think Blanc also won Inter's player of the year in 1999/2000 (and was quite good in those few games that I've rewatched of them recently).
Although Weah is a monstrous player to face, of course, and an ideally suited one to face a slow-ish ageing defender

A couple of my previous posts on Blanc:

Blanc in particular was an outstanding defender and I rate him higher than McGrath who seems to be having a resurgence on the Caf. Whenever I watched Blanc at the time I considered him just as good as Desailly and his international record is surely one of the more esteemed of any defender in the modern era.

This isn't just related to this thread, but Blanc is comfortably one of the most underrated players from that decade. He was every bit as good as Desailly in terms of ability.

I love Blanc. And you're spot on that he performed for Inter during the 99/00 season.

This is a 90s Serie A draft though and uncovering proper gems like Cravero is what it's all about. He isn't as big a name as Blanc but his peak performance at Torino is genuinely outstanding and he should be rated the higher player.

 

[2mufc0]

@Gio @Theon could only one of you post at the same time to avoid double teaming. Cheers.

 

[Theon]

@Gio @Theon could only one of you post at the same time to avoid double teaming. Cheers.

Of course. I'll take a step back - apologies @Tuppet @2mufc0

 

[Oaencha]

These figures aren't right at all. Torino played 34 games and conceded 20 goals in 1991/92 - the second best record behind Baresi's Milan of the entire decade. Cravero played 24 games that season and Torino conceded 14 goals in those games.

It was a defensively incredible season by Torino and Cravero was absolutely fundamental to it. His leadership and defensive acumen are precisely why they kept such a tight ship.

I was going by the stats Theon quoted. He said 24 apps / 20 conceeded. I very clearly wrote Torino final GA - 20 which is correct.

 

[Oaencha]

Those stats aren't correct at all mate.

Cravero has two peak seasons where conceded 29 and 20 goals for Torino - and was rated as the third best player in the entire league. Blanc conceded 40 and 36 goals during his stint in Serie A. Worth pointing out Cravero achieved that whilst at Torino - not Inter Milan. It's an exceptional achievement.

Also worth pointing out that he's not even our best defender, that's obviously Baresi.

They are indeed correct. I wrote ‘Final GA’ as in the team’s final GA. Yours are in fact incorrect as Cravero conceeded 14 in the games he played that season; not 20.

 

[Gio]

Alright lads if I wanted to tune into maths I'd have stuck Countdown on and at least got a perv at Rachel Riley.

 

[Gio]

In any game as tight as this, it's no harm in turning attention to the keepers. With all due respect to Konsel, who had a good first season at Roma, his record is a long way from Walter Zenga, a giant of the Italian game. After all, Konsel was 35 when he joined Roma and stayed in Serie A until he was 38, playing less frequently as injuries and age took their toll. He has a single solid season to his name based on the DBS Calcio ratings and that was basically it.

Zenga is a clear potential match winner in this game and has a proven partnership with Baresi in front of him.

• IFFHS World Goalkeeper of the Year x 3 (ahead of Dasayev no less)
• 2nd highest rated player in 1990/91 Serie A
• 500 games in Serie A

 

[antohan]

Ah, feck, missed this altogether. A couple of points worth throwing some neutral light on:

Problem with Blanc is that he has one good season with Inter - albeit at 34 - and one poor season with Napoli earlier in his career when he was freshly converted from playing further up the park. He got binned by Napoli and sent back on loan to France due to his inability to adapt to the Italian game as a defender. It's a pretty thin CV relative to the other central defenders on the park. You also have the more worrying problem about a 34-year-old Blanc facing a brutally quick attack hurtling forward on the counter.

That's a disservice to Blanc. Mind you, the true story of his Nápoli stint doesn't sell him very well either in this setup. Ranieri signed him and used him as a ball-playing libero. He wanted him for his ability to build from the back, not his defensive input. His defensive partners and teammates at the time (Zola in particular) are on record as to what a stupid decision it was to sell him (against Ranieri's wishes) after a year given how much he contributed to their transition and attacking game.

Overall, the issue was Italians were used to liberos who were defenders first and foremost, while Blanc was somewhat unorthodox in that he was there for distribution first, but Nápoli's President (who would go on to prove himself as an absolute mastermind of failure throughout the decade) didn't see the point.

These figures aren't right at all. Torino played 34 games and conceded 20 goals in 1991/92 - the second best record behind Baresi's Milan of the entire decade. Cravero played 24 games that season and Torino conceded 14 goals in those games.

It was a defensively incredible season by Torino and Cravero was absolutely fundamental to it. His leadership and defensive acumen are precisely why they kept such a tight ship.

While I have no issue with Cravero and I'm pretty sure he is just being targetted due to not being a familiar name, do you realise the rate they conceded at was the same with or without him on the pitch? I really don't like how ridiculously stats based this whole thing has turned. Wherever there's some good TEAM record whichever player someone has automatically turns into an instrumental part of that. Even average ratings over a season must be taken with a pinch of salt. For starters, because they are averages with no detail on variance, which any stats lover should be aware is pretty relevant. Exaggerated example: a defender getting 7s and 8s for his goalscoring exploits and 4s whenever his side face a good attack. No, thank you.

Again, no issue with Cravero (whom I saw very little of, but never bad). I'm pretty sure I've seen featured in lists of top Italian CBs ever (say, top 20 or so) but this thread makes terrible reading and it feels like -yet again- we are going to wind up running down good players because they have no stats on their side, and some average joes will turn into draft superheroes just because the stats stars aligned nicely for them.

 

[Gio]

While I have no issue with Cravero and I'm pretty sure he is just being targetted due to not being a familiar name, do you realise the rate they conceded at was the same with or without him on the pitch?

Aye, that was my point - there was some confusion over the numbers.

 

[idmanager]

@2mufc0
Could you please not consider my vote as it's too tough to differentiate now and I think it's a stalemate. Sorry if it causes confusion.

 

[antohan]

@2mufc0
Could you please not consider my vote as it's too tough to differentiate now and I think it's a stalemate. Sorry if it causes confusion.

I'm on the same boat so will vote whoever you haven't to avoid confusion or whoever's votes being misleading.

 

[2mufc0]

@2mufc0
Could you please not consider my vote as it's too tough to differentiate now and I think it's a stalemate. Sorry if it causes confusion.

Gio/Theon win by 1 vote anyway.

 

[Theon]

Jaysus, what a crazy game.

Hard luck @Tuppet I didn’t think there was any hope of us coming back from that.

 

[Moby]

What a comeback.

 

[harms]

And Laudrup has won it!

 

[Enigma_87]

Missed the game but apparently was one helluva comeback. Great work @Gio @Theon !

Tough luck @Tuppet great team as usual.

 

[Tuppet]

Jaysus, what a crazy game.

Hard luck @Tuppet I didn’t think there was any hope of us coming back from that.

Congratulations guys, great drafting and debating. I didn't think I was ever too far ahead. The lead was sort of artificial, Gio had voted for me and I've learned to never count on EAPs vote (The one time I wanted him to ask about Width ). So it was amusing when you were making that post declaring its over, not a big fan of those kind of posts and you can see it affected the game. Either ways it was a good and expectedly close game.

 

[Gio]

Superb team @Tuppet. Was one of the teams we didn't really want to face. Lost count of how many times we've played each other in recent drafts and you turned me over quite comfortably in the last one.

 

[Moby]

Classic G&T, incredible match thread debating.

 

[The Red Viper]

Classic G&T, incredible match thread debating.

Gio & Theon.
Jordan & Pippen.
Shaq & Kobe.
Magic & Kareem.

In that order.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Congratulations guys, great drafting and debating. I didn't think I was ever too far ahead. The lead was sort of artificial, Gio had voted for me and I've learned to never count on EAPs vote (The one time I wanted him to ask about Width ). So it was amusing when you were making that post declaring its over, not a big fan of those kind of posts and you can see it affected the game. Either ways it was a good and expectedly close game.

Hard luck mate. I think I preferred the balance of your team but I very narrowly opted for Gio as I felt you were a bit light on goals against a Baresi-led defence. On the bolded part, hinting at the score was supposed to be against the rules, but that seems to have went out the window. I did laugh after I voted and saw you were only winning by 4 votes with about a quarter of the game still to play, when some of those posts were suggesting the game was dead and buried .

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

I've learned to never count on EAPs vote (The one time I wanted him to ask about Width )

In all these years of playing draft, this is first draft I've changed my vote...that too two games in R1.

Usually I'm familiar with most of players, so can make my mind up...but here as the respective managers make a case of a relatively unknown player, I let myself be swayed by the arguments on both sides.

As Pat said, I finally decided that G/Ts defence shaded this and so switched it.

 

[Tuppet]

In all these years of playing draft, this is first draft I've changed my vote...that too two games in R1.

Usually I'm familiar with most of players, so can make my mind up...but here as the respective managers make a case of a relatively unknown player, I let myself be swayed by the arguments on both sides.

As Pat said, I finally decided that G/Ts defence shaded this and so switched it.

I was just kidding mate, no problems with changing the vote. Although I remember atleast one time before you changing the vote on me.

 

[sincher]

Wow. So this one turned.

Wrongly, IMO, but was always a good matchup between two strong teams.