Selling Fred was a mistake

If I had the choice right now of either Fred plus 60 million to spend on a real number 8 this winter, or no Fred, no money, and Mason Mount, I'd take the former.

We're no better off now than we were when we had Fred, in fact we're fairly worse off.
 
Amira said:
Just so your position is clear. Are you now saying he is just okay? Along with Dalot, McT and AWB? Or you are maintaining that he (and possibly these others listed) aren’t Premier League standard not just Manchester United standard?
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Just not good enough for a team that wants to win trophies, not enough quality and too many brainfarts.
 
arguably the best player in Turkey this season. Definitely had more to offer for a year or two
 
Oranges038 said:
Just not good enough for a team that wants to win trophies, not enough quality and too many brainfarts.
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Agreed. Two things can be true. Fred wasn’t good enough and we did an awful job replacing him.

Our constant fawning over players we got rid of (for good reason) is a sad indictment of our recruitment.
 
Amira said:
Agreed. Two things can be true. Fred wasn’t good enough and we did an awful job replacing him.

Our constant fawning over players we got rid of (for good reason) is a sad indictment of our recruitment.
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What you say is true. However, you can't tellnthat Fred and his energy as attribute would not have been beneficial in the Champions League matches where points were thrown away?

He went £8 million and we have lost £28 million in Joel Glazer language.
 
Amira said:
Agreed. Two things can be true. Fred wasn’t good enough and we did an awful job replacing him.

Our constant fawning over players we got rid of (for good reason) is a sad indictment of our recruitment.
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Enough for what? We aren't challenging for the title this season. He's certainly 'good enough' to help secure top4.
 
Even if Fred wasn’t sold this summer he would be a player so many would want out, or to upgrade on, within the next couple of years anyway.

He’s not at the level required. Just because the latest midfield recruits (Amrabat and Mount) have done very little - or practically nothing in Mount’s case - that does not justify keeping Fred. His best attribute is his energy, but his technical ability is mediocre and his passing is woeful. He has a place in certain games but could never be reliably called upon to perform consistently.

We were completely right to sell.
 
mu4c_20le said:
Enough for what? We aren't challenging for the title this season. He's certainly 'good enough' to help secure top4.
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We aren’t challenging for the title because we keep replacing players that are ARGUABLY good enough for the top 6 with worse players.

So again, it’s not replacing the players that’s the problem it’s the replacements.

And I say all of this as someone who thinks Fred could have been a good squad option. My point is the fact we are here reminiscing about Fred says it all about how dire our recruitment has been.
 
Todd said:
If I had the choice right now of either Fred plus 60 million to spend on a real number 8 this winter, or no Fred, no money, and Mason Mount, I'd take the former.

We're no better off now than we were when we had Fred, in fact we're fairly worse off.
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Surely everyone would take the former? Two decent players vs one decent player?
 
Yorke to Cole said:
What you say is true. However, you can't tellnthat Fred and his energy as attribute would not have been beneficial in the Champions League matches where points were thrown away?

He went £8 million and we have lost £28 million in Joel Glazer language.
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You are right as well. We could have used a player like him. It’s also another shocking piece of business that we only got 8 million for him.

We get bamboozled when we buy players and bamboozled when we sell. Awful
 
Amira said:
We aren’t challenging for the title because we keep replacing players that are ARGUABLY good enough for the top 6 with worse players.

So again, it’s not replacing the players that’s the problem it’s the replacements.

And I say all of this as someone who thinks Fred could have been a good squad option. My point is the fact we are here reminiscing about Fred says it all about how dire our recruitment has been.
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It is that Manchester United vortex problem again. The logic to move these players on is not incorrect. It is the plan after that. It leads me to think is Eric Ten Hag and (those previous to him) are these coaches or managers being told you can have or try to buy x and y and the structure above not fulfilling these objectives or are they just simply lying to them?
 
How can anyone argue that selling fred for 8 million and then loaning amrabat for 10 million was better squad building
 
8 million, absolute joke. Whether you think hes shite or not, he turned up for the big games....
 
roseguy64 said:
An in-form Mason Mount is an immediately better footballer than an in-form Fred.
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United have not seen an in form Mount so that argument is null and void. He's been here for 6 months nearly and either been injured or awful. At least Fred was usually available if at times very average.
 
roseguy64 said:
An in-form Mason Mount is an immediately better footballer than an in-form Fred.
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What a joke of a post, imagine bigging up Mount who didn't even have a single game in United midfield. One can understand the idea behind turning him form no10 to no8 with potentially more threat. But the defensive nous, agression, stamina, and all the hardwork behind Fred simply isnt replaced. All we see a team that is defending and attscking much worse because we cant make turnovers, we cant press and defend properly. Yes Mount was injured most of the time, but at least Fred didn't have to be given instructions he was clever and determined enough to be a very decent no8 over years looking at some other options who started here over years.

Let's talk about Mount being better once he starts performing won't you ? ;)
 
Leftback99 said:
Our 3 best performances last season (note the man of the match in each):
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/post-match-vs-manchester-city.475031/
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/post-match-vs-tottenham-hotspur.473539/
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/post-match-vs-barcelona.475808/

It's more of a bad decision given he'd actually be useful in this ridiculous system Ten Hag plays.
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Not just this, but he was probably in our top 3 players of the season in 4 of the last 5 years.

I understand people saying that selling him wasn't the problem, it was not replacing him. But that exposes some basic naiveté to me. In football, one in the hand is definitely worth two in a bush. If you've got someone who is off the right character, exceptional fitness, no trouble under 4 different managers, don't get rid of him because you 'might' have found somebody better.

The reality of these things is that you end up with someone like Amrabat. He might theoretically be "a better, footballer" but there's a good chance he's not, so why take the risk when you've got a proven solid pro with a good reputation amongst his peers and can deliver solid performances most of the time? Even if you throw in the occasional shocker, it's still better to keep someone like that than get rid (imho).

I'm not saying people think of Amrabat like this, but I do think people massively underrate squad cohesion, tactical diligence, and even 'likeability' in a footballer. Even after fecking Paul Pogba and Jadon Sancho, heck even people like mhki and Kagawa. Being a good five a side player or a "streets will never forget" baller is almost the last thing that makes a good professional premier league footballer. It's not romantic to say so, but United would have done better with 2 Freds, 2 James Milners, and 2 Ward-Prouses than an infinite number of Anthonys or Martials
 
I like Fred and think we miss him somewhat due to how poor McTom and Amrabat are, he was best of a bad lot and played a decent role in most of the season.

Lets not get carried away though, he played the full 90 in our 5-0 loss to Pool and was hooked at 3-0 in our second half collapse 7-0 defeat. He was very erratic and getting on a bit and he was never a defensive midfielder, we have a glut of attacking mids playing all sorts of roles. We just needed to replace him properly with a more able bodied technical player in their 20s. Amrabat looks like a hod carrier right now.
 
If not anything, Ten hag should be sacked just for selling Fred for 8m and loaning a pure shit player like Amrabat who’s not even half good as Fred for 10m. That’s basically sabotaging yourself.

How anyone in right mind can think Amrabat is a better player than Fred is beyond me. Fred was never a problem for us; he got criticised even when he played well. And now everyone can see that we’re missing him and his qualities.

Also, they’re different type of players in different positions but no, Mount is not better than Fred either. Not even as a 10 as Fred was in CM let alone as a number 8.
 
We’ve made plenty of mistakes in the last 10 years. This isn’t one which warrants a thread
 
I remember laughing at Rawk a decade ago. Every player they sold would have made a difference if they hadn't. Every player who was injured was the game changer they were missing. Lucas Leiva gained mythical status when he was out long-term, as the more games he missed, the better he became in the fans' eyes.

And now we're doing it. With Fred. A nice lad who tried his best and had a handful of great games.

We need a squad full of players who play great week in, week out, season after season. Not to eulogise someone who couldn't trap a bag of cement and who literally no top team would want in their first eleven.
 
zaafi said:
Yeah, just play a random academy kid, because their energy levels are similar :wenger:
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Have you forgotten how utterly inept Fred was?

Yes, that was my point. You might as well play a half decent academy player.
 
Camilo said:
Have you forgotten how utterly inept Fred was?

Yes, that was my point. You might as well play a half decent academy player.
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No, you may as well not, because that would be fecking stupid.

Fred was a fine all-around box-to-box midfielder. We played him as a holding midfielder, which he was not at all, so it cost us and made him look worse. Have you forgotten we used him as a destroyer and a deep-lying playmaker simultaneously? State of this club.
 
zaafi said:
No, you may as well not, because that would be fecking stupid.

Fred was a fine all-around box-to-box midfielder. We played him as a holding midfielder, which he was not at all, so it cost us and made him look worse. Have you forgotten we used him as a destroyer and a deep-lying playmaker simultaneously? State of this club.
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I remember him being utter wank every time he played, because he was. You don't keep pish around, you get rid. I'm DELIGHTED he's gone, because he was completely useless. Destroyer? Bollocks.
 
Ekeke said:
Not to say that he was a great replacement or is a million times better but the player who did replace him in Mount has been injured and unavailable a lot. If we had signed Rice for example and he'd played the same 4 starts and 4 sub appearances that Mount has had (3 more starts in league cup and champions league) it still wouldnt have been that good. Thats the same amount of starts as Luke Shaw who again hasnt played enough this season.

Amrabat would be the 2nd replacement and he's not been that much worse than Fred was last season. He lacks the mobility, but is far stronger. Fred was terrible in the first half of the season, worse than Amrabat is now.
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But Mount is not a direct swap for Fred, positionally, tactically or ability-wise. He might be a better player overall but it's apples and oranges. Amrabat is a player who works in Fred's position on the field, sure, but he has not replaced Fred's running and pressing. Again, not that sort of player.

My point is, I think we miss Fred's energy and there's no-one in current the squad who can replace that. The bigger issue perhaps is that EtH 's tactics for playing in Fred's absence and with the midfield we now have don't seem to be working, which is why we're having this conversation. If we were doing better, nobody would still be mentioning Fred.
 
We brought fred and kept trying to shoe horn him in the defensive midfielder position, he finally starts to be used further forward in a more natural box to box role for ten hag but is then sold and replaced with mount who is a number 10 but straight away we are trying to shoehorn him into the number 8 position, this club haha.
 
This revisionism is a joke. He wasnt good enough then and he wouldnt be good enough now. FFS the Turkish league is much weaker than the Premier. Mainoo is a much better player already and might not have gotten a chance if Fred was here.
 
It seems everything this club does now especially in the transfer market is a mistake. I agree it’s a mistake selling Fred and also keeping McT is a mistake. We are in a free fall vicious cycle which will only get resolved once the Glazer's feck off!
 
If we did keep Fred we would be starting with McFred most of the time this season.
 
Jeppers7 said:
Absolutely right to sell him. We need to sell more.
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We certainly do need to sell several players. In my opinion, though, Fred wasn’t one of them, and his absence demonstrates the fact. Our midfield is obviously a mess.

I always thought, like many opposition fans, that Fred was underrated on the caf. He was not just energy- based either, but had technical and passing skills that many just refused to see. The problem was his inconsistency, which had in fact largely stabilised by the time we sold him.

Nonetheless, he’s gone and we’re missing him, though there’s no point in wishing him back. Maybe there are indeed better players around, but one thing’s clear: we surely haven’t managed to obtain them. It might be too early to pronounce on Mount, though. We haven’t seen too much of him, though it certainly has not been a promising beginning.
 
Kazi said:
We’ve made plenty of mistakes in the last 10 years. This isn’t one which warrants a thread
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Yep. We make bad signings but that doesn't mean the bad signings they're replacing become good ones.
 
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