Scotland National Team Discussion

@MasterDarcy he said struggling to find "top flight players", and a quarter of your squad was from the Championship, so yes, it fit the bill. Outside of that, a chunk of Scotland's "top flight" players are from the not so great Scottish Premiership plus one from Saudi.

And I agree, you could fill your quota of "players playing at the top level" with players from middling and bottom clubs in those leagues. For example, a striker that's scored one goal in 34 Premier League appearances for Bournemouth, or a defender who is a squad player at Everton, or, to go abroad, a midfielder plying his trade at Bologna. But that's the Scotland squad.

Outside of Pickford at Everton and Henderson from Saudi, the lowest England were going for players was Chelsea in 12th and Palace in 11th (from last season). The rest were from clubs that either qualified for Europe or were competing for places until the very last day of the season. That, or we got them from AC Milan, Bayern Munich or Real Madrid.

You're taking offence at things that haven't been said. Scotland have had a great qualifying campaign so far, and are well worth their place in the next Euros. I didn't see anything above that said they weren't, just that you'd expect England to be heavy favourites in a match against them, which they should be. Those other two results were disappointing on England's part. They were still heavy favourites for them.

I'd expect that selection of players I listed to still be favourites against Scotland, yes.

As I said, you're getting offended by things that haven't been said. Scotland, when compared to England, objectively do scramble around to find top flight players for their squad, as evidenced by a quarter of their squad being from the Championship, and a good chunk of their top flight players being from "lesser" leagues or lower clubs in top leagues.

It's beside the point, but I don't necessarily disagree with your assessment of England either, at least not with Southgate in charge. And yeah, they likely will drop off when Kane goes because this has been the best England side in ages, and it'd be unrealistic to expect them to maintain the level. They'll still be favourites in a match against Scotland though.

France had more players missing than I remembered, but Pogba was no loss and Maignan certainly wasn't first choice goalkeeper. I'm not sure Nkunku was a guaranteed starter either. This is, again, all beside the point though. I think most would have favoured reigning world champions France above England during that tournament.
 
@MasterDarcy he said struggling to find "top flight players", and a quarter of your squad was from the Championship, so yes, it fit the bill. Outside of that, a chunk of Scotland's "top flight" players are from the not so great Scottish Premiership plus one from Saudi.

And I agree, you could fill your quota of "players playing at the top level" with players from middling and bottom clubs in those leagues. For example, a striker that's scored one goal in 34 Premier League appearances for Bournemouth, or a defender who is a squad player at Everton, or, to go abroad, a midfielder plying his trade at Bologna. But that's the Scotland squad.

Outside of Pickford at Everton and Henderson from Saudi, the lowest England were going for players was Chelsea in 12th and Palace in 11th (from last season). The rest were from clubs that either qualified for Europe or were competing for places until the very last day of the season. That, or we got them from AC Milan, Bayern Munich or Real Madrid.

You're taking offence at things that haven't been said. Scotland have had a great qualifying campaign so far, and are well worth their place in the next Euros. I didn't see anything above that said they weren't, just that you'd expect England to be heavy favourites in a match against them, which they should be. Those other two results were disappointing on England's part. They were still heavy favourites for them.

I'd expect that selection of players I listed to still be favourites against Scotland, yes.

As I said, you're getting offended by things that haven't been said. Scotland, when compared to England, objectively do scramble around to find top flight players for their squad, as evidenced by a quarter of their squad being from the Championship, and a good chunk of their top flight players being from "lesser" leagues or lower clubs in top leagues.

It's beside the point, but I don't necessarily disagree with your assessment of England either, at least not with Southgate in charge. And yeah, they likely will drop off when Kane goes because this has been the best England side in ages, and it'd be unrealistic to expect them to maintain the level. They'll still be favourites in a match against Scotland though.

France had more players missing than I remembered, but Pogba was no loss and Maignan certainly wasn't first choice goalkeeper. I'm not sure Nkunku was a guaranteed starter either. This is, again, all beside the point though. I think most would have favoured reigning world champions France above England during that tournament.

Remind me what England won when they had players like Ferdinand, Lampard, Carrick, Campbell, Gerrard, Scholes, Cole, Rooney, Shearer, Owen, Beckham, etc.

Football isn't about what's on paper. Nor is it necessarily about players playing at the top level. The fact that that guy made a note of saying that really tells me that lots of people really don't get Football.

Besides, whose to say what's top level? Messi, etc, isn't playing at the top level. Which team would reject him?

Was I offended? Not particularly. I just take umbrage with the guy's attitude and insinuation that England should absolutely mop the floor with England.

The difference isn't as vast as people think. Nor do I subscribe to the notion that England are world class. They aren't.

Anyway.

I don't want to talk about this anymore as it's a waste of time.

Have a good day and enjoy the Brighton match. :)
 
Remind me what England won when they had players like Ferdinand, Lampard, Carrick, Campbell, Gerrard, Scholes, Cole, Rooney, Shearer, Owen, Beckham, etc.

Football isn't about what's on paper. Nor is it necessarily about players playing at the top level. The fact that that guy made a note of saying that really tells me that lots of people really don't get Football.

Besides, whose to say what's top level? Messi, etc, isn't playing at the top level. Which team would reject him?

Was I offended? Not particularly. I just take umbrage with the guy's attitude and insinuation that England should absolutely mop the floor with England.

The difference isn't as vast as people think. Nor do I subscribe to the notion that England are world class. They aren't.

Anyway.

I don't want to talk about this anymore as it's a waste of time.

Have a good day and enjoy the Brighton match. :)

What has that failed, mismanaged generation got to do with the fact that Scotland have a weaker squad than England in 2023?

No one said it's all played on paper, but it's the expected "on paper" strength that determines the favourite in a match.

These are really simple points that you fail to grasp and end up bringing up random shit like the French WC squad, England's squad 20 years ago, or Messi playing in Miami to deflect.
 
Anyway.

Back to topic.

We need 2 points from our remaining 3 matches. Spain will be difficult but I can see us collecting 6 points from Norway and Georgia.

If we play against Spain and France (friendly) like we did on Tuesday it'll be a mauling.

Those two are actually football giants. Not fake giants who only have a rep because of the standard of their domestic league.

They've won more than a single major trophy. Both have won 4.
 
Really disappointing to lose in the fashion we did with so much controversy but proud of the side for putting through that run at the start to see us through. Would be amazing if we could back it up with another win to top the group. Very unlikely but hope we keep some momentum going into next summer.
 
Congrats Scots!

Thanks man!

Over the moon, yes we lost disappointingly last week but our form has been excellent and the boys have been rewarded, back to back Euros is fantastic. I get married next year so that will be a nice way to have a stag do before the big day :lol: :D but after so long in the wilderness, it's great to be seeing us at tournaments again. Hopefully Wales get over the line too now!
 
Thanks man!

Over the moon, yes we lost disappointingly last week but our form has been excellent and the boys have been rewarded, back to back Euros is fantastic. I get married next year so that will be a nice way to have a stag do before the big day :lol: :D but after so long in the wilderness, it's great to be seeing us at tournaments again. Hopefully Wales get over the line too now!

Amazing, congratulations on the engagement and hopefully we can give you a semi before the big day.
 
Thanks man!

Over the moon, yes we lost disappointingly last week but our form has been excellent and the boys have been rewarded, back to back Euros is fantastic. I get married next year so that will be a nice way to have a stag do before the big day :lol: :D but after so long in the wilderness, it's great to be seeing us at tournaments again. Hopefully Wales get over the line too now!

Congrats x2 in that case!

Be good to have as many of the home nations as possible in the competition
 
Amazing, congratulations on the engagement and hopefully we can give you a semi before the big day.

:lol: Brilliant haha and cheers mate, but yeah will be great to have that tournament to enjoy before the big day in September!

Congrats x2 in that case!

Be good to have as many of the home nations as possible in the competition

Thank you and indeed! Hope to see as many there as possible, always think it is a far better occasion when it is thus.
 
When the draw was made I didn't give Scotland a cat in hells chance of qualifying. It really is a remarkable achievement when you look at some of the big names that Spain, Norway and even Georgia with Kvaratskhelia have to call on. It's even more impressive that Scotland have done it with games to spare too!
 
Getting our arses felt heavy tonight, boys. Solid start to the night with a goal from Gilmore, but its all went a bit wrong since.

I only want one thing from the Euros next year, to make it out of the group stage. Just once in my life time is all I ask.
 
Getting our arses felt heavy tonight, boys. Solid start to the night with a goal from Gilmore, but its all went a bit wrong since.

I only want one thing from the Euros next year, to make it out of the group stage. Just once in my life time is all I ask.

France had a strong side out and we used a lot of our bench players so I'm not too worried about that loss last night. The England game was more of a realistic benchmark and we were very poor in that first half vs them. Much better in the second half too. Same with the Spain game. I think we have enough if we are on best form to get out of a group.
 
Getting our arses felt heavy tonight, boys. Solid start to the night with a goal from Gilmore, but its all went a bit wrong since.

I only want one thing from the Euros next year, to make it out of the group stage. Just once in my life time is all I ask.
Same. This team good enough to progress out of the group. Hopefully Clarke learned his lessons from the last Euros.
 
Bit of a frustrating result the other night but Haaland our gives us a good chance of finishing the campaign on a high.

Did anyone manage to get tickets in the lottery?

For some reason I went to the portal and it says that I didn't submit any application even though I did. :(
 
Bit of a frustrating result the other night but Haaland our gives us a good chance of finishing the campaign on a high.

Did anyone manage to get tickets in the lottery?

For some reason I went to the portal and it says that I didn't submit any application even though I did. :(
Nah none. Don't know anyone who managed to get any either.

That's 5 poor-to-middling performances on the bounce now. I get it we've qualified and taken the foot off the gas a little, but we need to get our shit together before the summer.
 
Nah none. Don't know anyone who managed to get any either.

That's 5 poor-to-middling performances on the bounce now. I get it we've qualified and taken the foot off the gas a little, but we need to get our shit together before the summer.

Yep, said it in the other thread but those two games showed the best of us and worst of us under Clarke. It feels like such a pessimist view after we started the campaign so strongly but this side has shown it is capable of getting to the knockouts if we perform our best and Clarke needs to find a way of ensuring the mentality doesn't dip further.
 
Scotland really struggle in a back 4 - clearly better with a 5.

Also the stand in players are nowhere near the level of say, Hickey, Tierney, Robertson and Gunn.
 
Yeah. Form really needs to come up if we have any chance at the Euros. Really hope Clarke was just dithering a bit with the squad since he was without his regulars.

Hopefully he uses the early Qualification form as a marker to prove that this team is capable.
 
Scotland really struggle in a back 4 - clearly better with a 5.

Also the stand in players are nowhere near the level of say, Hickey, Tierney, Robertson and Gunn.
Yeah I'd agree with that. That extra gear we have really comes from the entire left flank operating in sync with Robertson, Tierney and McGinn all overloading and interchanging. Plus the defence clearly needs the support of an extra CB. I don't think Hendry's move is doing his sharpness any favours as he looked a bit off it over the last two games. Agree with the drop-off - in fairness we are down to 4th choice left-back in Taylor which hopefully is just an exceptional set of circumstances. Zander Clark hasn't really convinced he's international class in these games either.
 
Yeah I'd agree with that. That extra gear we have really comes from the entire left flank operating in sync with Robertson, Tierney and McGinn all overloading and interchanging. Plus the defence clearly needs the support of an extra CB. I don't think Hendry's move is doing his sharpness any favours as he looked a bit off it over the last two games. Agree with the drop-off - in fairness we are down to 4th choice left-back in Taylor which hopefully is just an exceptional set of circumstances. Zander Clark hasn't really convinced he's international class in these games either.
Hendry was an absolute shambles. So poor.

Tierney and Porteous are guaranteed starters for me when fit. Robertson and Hickey the easy decision at full back / wing back.

The final centre back spot should be between Soutter and McKenna for me.

The midfield is pretty set. The attack needs pace and someone who can run at defenders. Christie and Brown haven’t been great and if Gordon or Barnes do switch, they’d be ideal.
 
Getting our arses felt heavy tonight, boys. Solid start to the night with a goal from Gilmore, but its all went a bit wrong since.

I only want one thing from the Euros next year, to make it out of the group stage. Just once in my life time is all I ask.
Im getting on a bit these days, would be lovely to see it happen before I finally stuff it. Just once and i will die happy.
The pessimist in me however still kicks in to gear. We have a team of journeymen who have done a brilliant job of getting to the finals. I just fear we lack enough players with a bit of special to get out of the group stage.
 
Worrying trend with Clarke that we exhert all our energy and pashun into getting to the tournament and then look dogshit in friendlies and in the tournament itself.
 
Take it we were shite this eve?

Just worrying that the intensity from the Dutch game (despite the heavy loss) was really not there for large patches of the game against a side we should be beating now. Don't think Dykes is up to it and we lack a real quality goalscorer up top. We can control a game but we have no potency.
 
Just worrying that the intensity from the Dutch game (despite the heavy loss) was really not there for large patches of the game against a side we should be beating now. Don't think Dykes is up to it and we lack a real quality goalscorer up top. We can control a game but we have no potency.
Have you always been Scottish?
 
The Dutch match as well as this one posed more questions than answers.

Against the Netherlands we went toe-to-toe with them and looked the better team for 70 minutes. We created chances and hit the bar twice. We looked confident and comfortable on the ball.

Then we made subs and we collapsed.

Against Northern Ireland we had 82% possession. 794 passes to N Ireland's 173. But only 2 shots on target to their 1.

Northern Ireland parked the bus. Scored via a cheap turnover. Scotland created nothing.

The most damming stat is that Dykes only had 12 touches in 70 minutes.

It's worth noting that Scotland haven't won a friendly for three years. We just can't pick ourselves up for friendlies, I don't know why.

From these two games we should've beat the Dutch and drew against Northern Ireland.

But these are just friendlies. I would be more perturbed if we lost to Northern Ireland in a competitive match.

If last night's game was a competitive match we would've won.

We just don't have a player who can unlock defences. We haven't replaced McFadden. Hopefully Ben Doak will be that player, but that'll be a couple years down the line.
 
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The Dutch match as well as this one posed more questions than answers.

Against the Netherlands we went toe-to-toe with them and looked the better team for 70 minutes. We created chances and hit the bar twice. We looked confident and comfortable on the ball.

Then we made subs and we collapsed.

Against Northern Ireland we had 82% possession. Northern Ireland parked the bus. Scored via a cheap turnover. Scotland created nothing.

It's worth noting that Scotland haven't won a friendly for three years. We just can't pick ourselves up for friendlies, I don't know why.

From these two games we should've beat the Dutch and drew against Northern Ireland.

But these are just friendlies. I would be more perturbed if we lost to Northern Ireland in a competitive match.

If last night's game was a competitive match we would've won.

We just don't have a player who can unlock defences. We haven't replaced McFadden. Hopefully Ben Doak will be that player, but that'll be a couple years down the line.
Wouldnt it be great to have McFadden right now, we do need that special player up front, we just dont have one right now.
 
Wouldnt it be great to have McFadden right now, we do need that special player up front, we just dont have one right now.

It would be amazing.

I'm not saying that it would be the difference between us winning the Euros and us not winning it... but I'm not not saying that.

Look at Greece. They won it with zero stars. It can happen.

I hate to say it, because it's too late, but Michael Johnston should've been given a chance. We need a dribbler. Someone who can beat players.

Ryan Fraser was never that player, besides, he can't be trusted. Remember when be pulled out injured only to train the next day with Newcastle?

I have hopes for Ben Doak but who knows what this injury has done to his pace.
 
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Have you always been Scottish?

Yes. My dad is English and I live down south now though so follow England a bit + obviously we have some players involved with them too. I don't care for tribalism too much unless it's funny winding people up. :D
 
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Just worrying that the intensity from the Dutch game (despite the heavy loss) was really not there for large patches of the game against a side we should be beating now. Don't think Dykes is up to it and we lack a real quality goalscorer up top. We can control a game but we have no potency.
Clarke’s control of the game has its merits but does lack the shape and personnel to break down weaker teams. He tends to prefer lots of runners supporting a lone forward. This is backed up by his decision to keep a creative 10 in Gauld away from the squad. And last night was an example of where a more technical between-the-lines player could’ve unlocked a packed defence.

Irregardless though the Euros will pose a different tactical question. Aside from some of the Holland game, we’ve been poor for the last 8 months. We really need the defence to step back up to give us a fighting chance.
 
Clarke’s control of the game has its merits but does lack the shape and personnel to break down weaker teams. He tends to prefer lots of runners supporting a lone forward. This is backed up by his decision to keep a creative 10 in Gauld away from the squad. And last night was an example of where a more technical between-the-lines player could’ve unlocked a packed defence.

Irregardless though the Euros will pose a different tactical question. Aside from some of the Holland game, we’ve been poor for the last 8 months. We really need the defence to step back up to give us a fighting chance.

Very much so. If Ferguson continues his form for Bologna I'd like to see him given a fairer crack and I think Shankland has done fairly well over the last two games and enough to show he's maybe deserving of getting more time than Dykes/Adams. Get a few goals against Gibraltar to build the confidence up hopefully.
 
Just worrying that the intensity from the Dutch game (despite the heavy loss) was really not there for large patches of the game against a side we should be beating now. Don't think Dykes is up to it and we lack a real quality goalscorer up top. We can control a game but we have no potency.
Aye we need something special up top. Unless we somehow find a Bale type out our arses I don’t see it happening sadly. Maybe that Doak boy at Liverpool? He seems highly rated.
 
I thought we were awful last night. Despite the score line I thought we were good for large spells against Netherlands, but we were shocking last night. I don’t think we had a shot until the 40th+ minute.

The worrying thing for me is the lack of natural wide players, or pace in general throughout the squad. Gilmour, McTominay, Christie, McGinn, McGregor, Lewis Ferguson, all good players playing to at a very decent level, but not many creative final 3rd players, and not very pacey.

We really need a Ben Doak or someone of that ilk breaking through.

Edit: Didn’t read the previous post, fully agree.
 
I thought we were awful last night. Despite the score line I thought we were good for large spells against Netherlands, but we were shocking last night. I don’t think we had a shot until the 40th+ minute.

The worrying thing for me is the lack of natural wide players, or pace in general throughout the squad. Gilmour, McTominay, Christie, McGinn, McGregor, Lewis Ferguson, all good players playing to at a very decent level, but not many creative final 3rd players, and not very pacey.

We really need a Ben Doak or someone of that ilk breaking through.

It's a shame Southgate didn't ignore Gordon. :(
 
Very much so. If Ferguson continues his form for Bologna I'd like to see him given a fairer crack and I think Shankland has done fairly well over the last two games and enough to show he's maybe deserving of getting more time than Dykes/Adams. Get a few goals against Gibraltar to build the confidence up hopefully.
Yeah Ferguson deserves a couple of starts given how regularly influential he is at the top level. Agreed on Shankland - he's comfortably our best goalscorer and is playing with a swagger the other forwards aren't. Didn't get the Dykes selection last night at all.
 
Very much so. If Ferguson continues his form for Bologna I'd like to see him given a fairer crack and I think Shankland has done fairly well over the last two games and enough to show he's maybe deserving of getting more time than Dykes/Adams. Get a few goals against Gibraltar to build the confidence up hopefully.
When are we playing Gibraltar?
 
Very poor last night, lack real creativity in trying to break a team down. I don't know why we just don't persist with Shankland up front. Okay, he might not be up to it but fed up seeing him play really well for Hearts and be a constant threat (and yes that includes against us and Celtic) but then not really given a fair crack come internationals. I'd be giving him at least an hour in the two friendlies before the Euros.

Also think we should be thinking of moving on from Clarke. He's done a lot of good and created a very good platform, but we have some really good players in that squad for the first time in a long while and I'd like to see us push on a bit.
 
Very poor last night, lack real creativity in trying to break a team down. I don't know why we just don't persist with Shankland up front. Okay, he might not be up to it but fed up seeing him play really well for Hearts and be a constant threat (and yes that includes against us and Celtic) but then not really given a fair crack come internationals. I'd be giving him at least an hour in the two friendlies before the Euros.

Also think we should be thinking of moving on from Clarke. He's done a lot of good and created a very good platform, but we have some really good players in that squad for the first time in a long while and I'd like to see us push on a bit.

Agree on both parts. I think we are in a similar position to England now with Southgate where they're both doing stuff their predecessors couldn't and we are afraid to take a risk to be better because there is the chance that a newer and better manager spectacularly fails and we end up being in the same position pre-Clarke/Southgate.