"save energy & avoid injuries" strategy against top teams?

[Borys]

Certainly looks like a strategy Ole uses in games against top teams in the EPL. Seems like he'd take a draw (with a smiling face) rather than risk injury or fatigue. Although it's not very exciting to watch, it might be effective in the end.

EDIT: Not that I'm advocating going defensive in those games, but it's kind of understandable considering how tired we looked toward the end of last season. Even if somehow we are on top after 30 games, we might as well end up outside of top 4 if this scenario repeats.

 

[UnofficialDevil]

He just has no clue how to attack.

 

[VorZakone]

I'll call it a good strategy if Utd win the title.

 

[VP89]

How might it be effective? Is the insinuation that if you don't bother taking a risk and big push teams at home, that you might be able to jump on them when you're away?

 

[charlenefan]

Certainly looks like a strategy Ole uses in games against top teams in the EPL. Seems like he'd take a draw (with a smiling face) rather than risk injury or fatigue. Although it's not very exciting to watch, it might be effective in the end.

In the games against Chelsea and City a point was a good result for us in the circumstances (game after the 1-6 and the game after a UCL exit)

The teams record in the big games last season was exceptional

 

[Schmeichel's Cartwheel]

Ole is a pragmatic manager

 

[Borys]

He just has no clue how to attack.

City seemed to be very conservative too. It might be as you suggest, but it certainly looks like top teams are not going full attack mode against each other.

How might it be effective? Is the insinuation that if you don't bother taking a risk and big push teams at home, that you might be able to jump on them when you're away?

It might be effective because firstly, we play every 3 days, and secondly I doubt it's a "90pts winner" season. Also, I don't think home/away makes that much of a difference this season, especially for us.

I'll call it a good strategy if Utd win the title.

It certainly should be judged after the season ends, but at this point we're 4 points off top, having played Tottenham, Chelsea, Arsenal and Man City.

 

[VP89]

It might be effective because firstly, we play every 3 days, and secondly I doubt it's a "90pts winner" season. Also, I don't think home/away makes that much of a difference this season, especially for us.

This makes sense if he was one of those flat track bully managers who tends to fare well enough against smaller teams and poor in big matches. But his best performances are actually against the better sides, and he tends to struggle much more against the smaller teams.

 

[UnofficialDevil]

It certainly should be judged after the season ends, but at this point we're 4 points off top, having played Tottenham, Chelsea, Arsenal and Man City.

We are also 4 points of 14th.

 

[King Eric 7]

If this was a tactic away against the other big four teams, it wouldn't be so bad. But we should be trying to win these home games.

 

[Borys]

This makes sense if he was one of those flat track bully managers who tends to fare well enough against smaller teams and poor in big matches. But his best performances are actually against the better sides, and he tends to struggle much more against the smaller teams.

That's not true tough. If we calculate points gained per game against not-top teams, we're on top of the table:

Season	Team	PTS/Game
2020/21	ManUtd	2,7
2020/21	Chelsea	2,3
2020/21	Tottenham	2,3
2020/21	Liverpool	2,2
2020/21	ManCity	2,2

Even if we calculate last season against not-top teams since Bruno arrived, we're pretty good:

Season	Team	PTS/Game
2019/20	ManUtd	2,4
2020/21	ManUtd	2,7

We are also 4 points of 14th.

It doesn't change the fact we're in touching distance from the top. The point is that the league table looks very flat, so we're not in bad situation.

If this was a tactic away against the other big four teams, it wouldn't be so bad. But we should be trying to win these home games.

Yeah I agree, it looks that way from fans point of view, but I can understand why Ole would use that strategy.

 

[Ronaldo's ego]

Ole knows very well the standards and mentality required at this club yet continuously lies about going out to win every game because it’s the ‘United way’. We need step away from this thought process going forward and appoint the right people for the job. Be proactive and ruthless in decision making, devoid of sentiment.

 

[VP89]

That's not true tough. If we calculate points gained per game against not-top teams, we're on top of the table:

Season	Team	PTS/Game
2020/21	ManUtd	2,7
2020/21	Chelsea	2,3
2020/21	Tottenham	2,3
2020/21	Liverpool	2,2
2020/21	ManCity	2,2

Even if we calculate last season against not-top teams since Bruno arrived, we're pretty good:

Season	Team	PTS/Game
2019/20	ManUtd	2,4
2020/21	ManUtd	2,7

That's because we've played Chelsea, Arsenal, City and Tottenham (and got 2 points). We've played 7 games against so called "smaller" sides, where 2 we actually deserved to get thrashed (West Ham and Brighton).

Re-create the same and compare from last season. The problem is Ole's inconsistency against smaller sides -he made his name in big games for United. Be it Villa, Southampton, Huddersfield, Palace, Everton - the inconsistency was always there against the smaller sides.

 

[UnofficialDevil]

No not really.
Strategy against top teams is just sit back, defend, ruin the other team game and hope to score from a counter or a corner, the Ole way.

 

[Borys]

That's because we've played Chelsea, Arsenal, City and Tottenham (and got 2 points). We've played 7 games against so called "smaller" sides, where 2 we actually deserved to get thrashed (West Ham and Brighton).

Re-create the same and compare from last season. The problem is Ole's inconsistency against smaller sides -he made his name in big games for United. Be it Villa, Southampton, Huddersfield, Palace, Everton - the inconsistency was always there against the smaller sides.

I just shown you the stats. Lets try another way:
Last season since Bruno joined:


This season:


You still think Ole "struggles much more against the smaller teams"?

 

[VP89]

I just shown you the stats. Lets try another way:
Last season since Bruno joined:


This season:


You still think Ole "struggles much more against the smaller teams"?

You showed me stats of 7 games vs smaller sides this season, 2 of which we were ridiculously lucky again.

Also don't do this shit "since Bruno arrived". Do it since Ole became manager please. And compare his record to his peers, then tell me if its a good strategy.

 

[el3mel]

Maybe this is our strategy the entire season, save energy till we concede then start playing football. If we don't concede then be happy with a draw and spread smiles everywhere.

 

[Adisa]

Certainly looks like a strategy Ole uses in games against top teams in the EPL. Seems like he'd take a draw (with a smiling face) rather than risk injury or fatigue. Although it's not very exciting to watch, it might be effective in the end.

What's our strategy against small teams because we aren't very good in those either?

 

[Nick7]

Jose was torn apart for a similarly boring performance against Liverpool at Anfield. I can forgive that for away games, but not even trying to attack at home is awful.

 

[Borys]

You showed me stats of 7 games vs smaller sides this season, 2 of which we were ridiculously lucky again.

Also don't do this shit "since Bruno arrived". Do it since Ole became manager please. And compare his record to his peers, then tell me if its a good strategy.

Listen mate, you seem like a type who trusts his eyes rather than data, so I'm not going to do any more analysis for you because it's a waste of time- you can do this "shit" on your own. You made a claim we struggle against smaller teams, so why don't you prove it? I've proved my point already.
I am not saying this is a good strategy, and I'm not saying I'm happy with this approach so get off my back. I'm just showing it's a possible approach which kind of makes sense.

Why would you analyze the time pre-Bruno though? It's clear he changed us, and he's not leaving in winter is he?

 

[el3mel]

Why would you analyze the time pre-Bruno though? It's clear he changed us, and he's not leaving in winter is he?

Bruno might get injured at one point. Assuming he would be fit the entire season doesn't make sense does it ? The fact we struggle whenever he's off form or not playing at all is very worrying when we're forced to play without him again due to injury and stuff.

 

[VP89]

Listen mate, you seem like a type who trusts his eyes rather than data, so I'm not going to do any more analysis for you because it's a waste of time- you can do this "shit" on your own. You made a claim we struggle against smaller teams, so why don't you prove it? I've proved my point already.
I am not saying this is a good strategy, and I'm not saying I'm happy with this approach so get off my back. I'm just showing it's a possible approach which kind of makes sense.

Why would you analyze the time pre-Bruno though? It's clear he changed us, and he's not leaving in winter is he?

I'm happy to go by data. I just want you to properly look at the data and not sugarcoat stats like "since Bruno joined". By doing that you'd miss many small games we lost points to despite having combinations of Rashford martial and Pogba all on the pitch (eg Southampton both draws last season, Palace loss last season, Villa last season, the 4-0 thrashing to Everton the year before or being whipped by an already relegated Huddersfield)

 

[Crashoutcassius]

i think we had an close game vs one of the greatest ever football teams (who are patchy this season obviously). we have played this way again and again vs top teams, made them look poor and created enough to often (usually over the longer run) win the game. we can spin whatever narrative we want but vs the top sides over his nearly two years here ole has done well, better than previous managers with 'top pedigree'

 

[Matthew84!]

Why complain? Most people thought we'd lose so a 0-0 isn't the worst, stop being dramatic and grow up, we're 7 pts better of than last season,

 

[Borys]

I'm happy to go by data. I just want you to properly look at the data and not sugarcoat stats like "since Bruno joined". By doing that you'd miss many small games we lost points to despite having combinations of Rashford martial and Pogba all on the pitch (eg Southampton both draws last season, Palace loss last season, Villa last season, the 4-0 thrashing to Everton the year before or being whipped by an already relegated Huddersfield)

But why would I do that? Why would I take 12 months ago as a representative period? When was the last time we played without Bruno? I really don't get that.

What's our strategy against small teams because we aren't very good in those either?

See this and this as an evidence your argument isn't true.

Bruno might get injured at one point. Assuming he would be fit the entire season doesn't make sense does it ? The fact we struggle whenever he's off form or not playing at all is very worrying when we're forced to play without him again due to injury and stuff.

OK. So should we consider De Bruyne getting injured as well, or other key players in different teams?

Our reliance on Bruno is worrying, but it makes sense to save him and other attackers from getting injured, which is my point in OP.

 

[VP89]

But why would I do that? Why would I take 12 months ago as a representative period? When was the last time we played without Bruno? I really don't get that.

Of course its representive. It was only last season for fecksake. Just take the whole season and look at the games.

 

[Borys]

Of course its representive. It was only last season for fecksake. Just take the whole season and look at the games.

Last 25+ games is more representative than whatever was 12 months ago.

But go ahead, you have a point to prove. I've proven mine already.

 

[VP89]

Last 25+ games is more representative than whatever was 12 months ago.

But go ahead, you have a point to prove. I've proven mine already.

You haven't proven shit. You claim results from last season aren't representive and have cherry picked a time we looked good.

As I said, you take last season as a whole and you'll find we haven't been consistent against small teams. You're trying to ignore games that don't fit your statistic because you know it's wrong. The first half of last season isn't suddenly irrelevant.

If you looked at statistical analysis, youl find you are falling to a fallacy known as "recency bias". I'd look into it before having this silly debate run in circles.

 

[Borys]

You haven't proven shit. You claim results from last season aren't representive and have cherry picked a time we looked good.

As I said, you take last season as a whole and you'll find we haven't been consistent against small teams. You're trying to ignore games that don't fit your statistic because you know it's wrong. The first half of last season isn't suddenly irrelevant.

If you looked at statistical analysis, youl find you are falling to a fallacy known as "recency bias". I'd look into it before having this silly debate run in circles.

I disagree. I've proven that in the last 25+ games (recency bias? on that sample size?) we have a good record of beating smaller teams. It is a period since Bruno joined, so no cherry picking, just we're a different team and ignoring that is wrong.

You've made an argument we're poor against smaller teams, but you've proven shit so far.

 

[Sandikan]

I'll call it a good strategy if Utd win the title.

And when we end up 25 points off the team that win it?

 

[Gazza]

Certainly looks like a strategy Ole uses in games against top teams in the EPL. Seems like he'd take a draw (with a smiling face) rather than risk injury or fatigue. Although it's not very exciting to watch, it might be effective in the end.

I'm sorry, but if that is the strategy (and I don't think it is, I think it's a reach on your part) then it would be a laughable 'tactic'. Absolutely laughable. And certainly not effective by any measure or metric.

 

[VP89]

I disagree. I've proven that in the last 25+ games (recency bias? on that sample size?) we have a good record of beating smaller teams. It is a period since Bruno joined, so no cherry picking, just we're a different team and ignoring that is wrong.

You've made an argument we're poor against smaller teams, but you've proven shit so far.

Yes, recency bias. You outright want to ignore the first half of last season, even though they are extremely relevant.

I've proven my point - it's in the entirety of last season. I don't cherry pick arbitrary cut-offs to suit an agenda. I count it when Bruno arrived, and before Bruno arrived.

I'm sorry, but if that is the strategy (and I don't think it is, I think it's a reach on your part) then it would be a laughable 'tactic'. Absolutely laughable. And certainly not effective by any measure or metric.

Apparently it is, if you exclude the first half of last season as it's apparently not relevant ?!?

 

[Gazza]

i think we had an close game vs one of the greatest ever football teams (who are patchy this season obviously). we have played this way again and again vs top teams, made them look poor and created enough to often (usually over the longer run) win the game. we can spin whatever narrative we want but vs the top sides over his nearly two years here ole has done well, better than previous managers with 'top pedigree'

The team we played today are not one of the greatest ever football teams, for goodness sake.

 

[JJ12]

Attacking energy you mean?

 

[Borys]

I've proven my point - it's in the entirety of last season. I don't cherry pick arbitrary cut-offs to suit an agenda. I count it when Bruno arrived, and before Bruno arrived.

Count what? What are the numbers? How do we compare to other top teams? Only when you finally show some data that supports your argument we will start discussing how much we've improved since that, but let's just see those stats first.

Apparently it is, if you exclude the first half of last season as it's apparently not relevant ?!?

We didn't have Bruno for the first half of the season, so what do you think is the more representative sample to estimate this season when we have Bruno full time?

I'm sorry, but if that is the strategy (and I don't think it is, I think it's a reach on your part) then it would be a laughable 'tactic'. Absolutely laughable. And certainly not effective by any measure or metric.

It's risky for sure. I'm not advocating it, but don't you think Chelsea, Arsenal and City today were a bit too cautious too? It seems strange as the intensity of those games doesn't feel like real derby games.

 

[VP89]

Count what? What are the numbers? How do we compare to other top teams? Only when you finally show some data that supports your argument we will start discussing how much we've improved since that, but let's just see those stats first.

https://thefootballfaithful.com/ranking-the-premier-league-top-sixs-head-to-head-record-in-2019-20/

^ Here. You can see our tally against big teams over the entirety of last season.
23 points out of a possible 30, which shows he was actually more of a big occasion manager for us. So as someone else already pointed out it would be a less suitable tactic (not that I even think it's a tactic in the first place).

We didn't have Bruno for the first half of the season, so what do you think is the more representative sample to estimate this season when we have Bruno full time?

That doesn't make the first half of the season irrelevant. Teams will always build and change over time, you can't just count when you please.

 

[youngrell]

Yes, recency bias. You outright want to ignore the first half of last season, even though they are extremely relevant.

I've proven my point - it's in the entirety of last season. I don't cherry pick arbitrary cut-offs to suit an agenda. I count it when Bruno arrived, and before Bruno arrived.

Apparently it is, if you exclude the first half of last season as it's apparently not relevant ?!?

Are you being serious? Or just completely blinded by your dislike for the manager?

It is clear why @Borys is excluding the time pre-Bruno, because as he his painfully trying to point out to you, we are no longer struggling to beat the smaller teams like we were before he arrived, as he has shown you with the results.

It is a thing called improvement, which is what we want to see isn’t it? So why are you hell bent on focusing on a past weakness that is no longer there? It’s like analysing Sir Alex’s reign by his first 4 years. Bizarre.

 

[VP89]

Are you being serious? Or just completely blinded by your dislike for the manager?

It is clear why @Borys is excluding the time pre-Bruno, because as he his painfully trying to point out to you, we are no longer struggling to beat the smaller teams like we were before he arrived, as he has shown you with the results.

It is a thing called improvement, which is what we want to see isn’t it? So why are you hell bent on focusing on a past weakness that is no longer there? It’s like analysing Sir Alex’s reign by his first 4 years. Bizarre.

What tripe is this? I don't "dislike" Ole - read my posts and evaluate properly. Yes, I certainly doubt him as long term manager but I often give him credit when due and criticism when due.

And no, we aren't suddenly "no longer struggling" against smaller sides. His initial post looked just at this season where we actually should have lost against Brighton, should have lost to West Ham, managed to come back against Southmpton (hence struggled there) and actually struggled massively to Palace.

Bruno joining in January doesn't make the first half of the season irrelevant when evaluating Ole as a manager. If Ole has Rashford, Martial, Pogba available and still drops points to Southampton or to Villa, or to Everton or Palace - that should be held to account. You don't just count when you please.

Do you think Liverpool fans or the media want to stop hit pause when evaluating Jrugen Klopp just because he missed VVD or if he missed Allison for a month? No, they're still held to scrutiny and the games still count. If you want to count points per game to suggest Ole generally does better against smaller teams than big teams, look at how he did over a course of an entire season and then evaluate whether there's a case. But even if you do count our big games after Bruno came until the close of last season - you'll probably still find we have a strong big game record, so the entire point is stupid anwyay.

 

[Borys]

https://thefootballfaithful.com/ranking-the-premier-league-top-sixs-head-to-head-record-in-2019-20/

^ Here. You can see our tally against big teams over the entirety of last season.
23 points out of a possible 30, which shows he was actually more of a big occasion manager for us. So as someone else already pointed out it would be a less suitable tactic (not that I even think it's a tactic in the first place).

That doesn't make the first half of the season irrelevant. Teams will always build and change over time, you can't just count when you please.

Well, unless you expect Bruno to become shit overnight (he might get injured, but same applies to other teams key players so that's irrelevant) , I really don't see why would I take whole last season as more representative than last 30 games since he arrived. I guess we'll have to disagree on that.

It certainly seems to me like EPL games against top teams were less intense than for example all our games in Champions League campaign, that's why I think there might be something more to it.

 

[Gazza]

Count what? What are the numbers? How do we compare to other top teams? Only when you finally show some data that supports your argument we will start discussing how much we've improved since that, but let's just see those stats first.


We didn't have Bruno for the first half of the season, so what do you think is the more representative sample to estimate this season when we have Bruno full time?


It's risky for sure. I'm not advocating it, but don't you think Chelsea, Arsenal and City today were a bit too cautious too? It seems strange as the intensity of those games doesn't feel like real derby games.

I have a feeling many players, not just at United but generally, are a bit knackered. I don't think it's a conscious strategy like you suggested and, if it were deliberate, I don't think it would be effective or wise to hang your season's hopes on eking out draws against your direct competitors and hoping the 'smaller games' take care of themselves.

I haven't watched all the other clubs' games this season so I can't a) say how they played in all the big games or b) how that compares to how they play in the other games. However I do think that Arsenal, Chelsea and Man City were vindicated in playing the way they did when they came to Old Trafford, whereas in those games we genuinely missed a chance to go for a win and I remember feeling either bored, deflated or pissed off after each one due to how negatively we played.