I think Bradman stands out as a complete freak on his own, but Sachin definitely in that next tier with Graeme Pollock, Barry Richards, Viv Richards, Garfield Sobers, Hobbs, Lara and I'm sure even a few others. Whether he is the best of this group of batsmen or not is up to debate, I would certainly say for consistency over a huge amount of time he may well deserve to be considered that.
Sachin Tendulkar
- Thread starter amolbhatia50k
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Absolutely love Vaughan but you just can't put him in that tier, he hasn't got anywhere near the record to back it up. While Ponting does, he is often playing on flat Australian decks and in a completely dominant team, and around him players such as Hayden, Clarke, Steve Waugh, and I'm sure others averaged over 50, kind of suggesting that while he's a brilliant batsman he can't be considered amongst the best of the best.
As I said, I consider Tendulkar to be at the pointy end of any of these discussions, but australian tracks are not flat, they are 'true' They don't swing and seam as much as carpets in NZ or some pitches in England, but plenty of bounce and pace, not to mention variety...Adelaide is quite different from the WACA, and that again is quite different from the SCG.
The dominant batting lineup argument I also don't like, it's like he is penalized because his team was good...
Not to mention there is plenty of pressure is a successful setup like Australia, when you think someone like Hussey couldnt get a go till he was basically 30. So you have to earn your keep...if you don't or make a mistake you pay for it ala Damien Martyn, who once he was dropped didnt get a look in for another 6-7 seasons.
Ponting should be and is considered right up there with the best of the best.
To be fair it was more a response to amolbhatia100 calling Tendulker the greatest ever.
why bother comparing the greats of the game who have achieved what they have just because of their love for the game! Covet records they may. But that hasn't stopped them one bit in enjoying what they do.
Agree with this though.
Sorry but I don't know where you learned your cricket or have ever even played the game but playing against fast bowlers, indeed any type of bowler in nets is what hones and polishes your technique and in cricket its really the best opportunity for you and your coaches to have a good look at what you do under pressure, under the microscope
Obviously going out and doing that under match conditions is a different story and some players fall down on that huge factor ......
.....but not Vivian Richards
He even played better under non protective conditions, against faster and more aggressive bowlers and on hostile pitches in every corner of the globe and against all sides in all situations
Fearless, peerless and with a counter hostility with the bat never equalled or seen before or since.
It is only an opinoin and I am not blinded by Sachins greatness but truly Viv Richards was in a different league entirely
Oh I have a lot of respect for others. Lara was a great player, as is Ponting, Dravid, Kallis etc. I have adored this game for years now. And you simply cannot do that without appreciating it in it's entirety.Sticky wickets, bodyline, dodgy padding and cricket bats that aren't worth a pinch of shit in modern terms. The weight and thickness was completely different. Half the power out of modern day cricketers comes from the "elastic effect" of modern day bats. Modern day cricketers wouldn't know what to do on the pitches that the old guys use to play on. And you've just proved my point. You have no respect for what others have done. Its this self righteous bullshit that Spoony is implying. Sachin is a good cricketer, but outside of India he's only as good as Lara and the likes. Modern batsman have been spoonfed. The pitches in modern cricket are an absolute sham. They drastically favor batsman and recently when we do get pitches that favor bowling '2005 ashes series' we get some of the best most entertaining cricket in living memory.
Sachin also had a far better team to rely on even if they were "shit"
It's just clear as day to me that he's the best. And definitely of this generation.
And I'm not really taking a dig at Bradman at all. I just believe he needs to be put aside for these debates because the sport he played was nothing like the one today. IMO there were too many factors going for him. Many might believe there were too many factors against him. Irrelevant really, best to keep and that generation out of it. It's almost like a different sport. So we can this the modern era if you'd like.
I think you completely missed the point of what I was trying to say. My point is that you can't count practice when comparing players. In fact he's lucky he got to learn from facing them and never had to deal with the worlds best bowlers in actual game time.
Hostility isn't the only thing that matters btw, otherwise Sehwag would be in a league of his own from this generation.
Also, I refuse to believe a batsman whose average is almost 7 below Sachin can be in a different league to him. One who played in one of the greatest teams of all time, that beat everyone to pulp and who never faced the kind of pressure Sachin did.
Again, I understand you believe he's better. But in a different league despite the above factors, doesn't quite add up.
okay different league is perhaps harsh but for me given a choice I know who I would have in my side
No problem with that. We all have our opinions. No doubt who I would have.
Although Wiki is not an authority on the subject I thought these few points I got from his Wikipage were interesting to note for his fans:
1. In 2002, just 12 years into his career, Wisden ranked him the second greatest Test batsman of all time, behind Donald Bradman, and the second greatest one-day-international (ODI) batsman of all time, behind Viv Richards.
And that was just in 2002!
2.In September 2007, the Australian leg spinner Shane Warne rated Tendulkar as the greatest player he has played with or against.
3. Tendulkar was the only player of the current generation to be included in Bradman's Eleven.
That's high praise indeed and of course no question he is a great great player.
Thing is someone said earlier Viv Richards is a bit like the Pele / Maradona of batsmen and I and many others tend to agree with that so to be fair Sachin is up against a bit of a player!
- both simply sensational
yet another 50....he has like a 95 average for this year..
Amazing player and to do it for as long as he has done it so consistently puts him above anyone else in the modern game in the last 2-3 decades....
Paddle sweeps, straight sixes with a straight bat, fine late cuts,,won't see any other player play those shots with such perfection.
Amazing player and to do it for as long as he has done it so consistently puts him above anyone else in the modern game in the last 2-3 decades....
Paddle sweeps, straight sixes with a straight bat, fine late cuts,,won't see any other player play those shots with such perfection.
The greatest batsmen I've watched.
Enjoy it, Zain, while it lasts. It's going to end soon. feck it's hard to even say that.
I'm going to remember these last two years very fondly. It's like his sign off. There's this fear that it's going to come to an abrupt end soon. I think the world cup will be the end of him sadly, I feel we won't win that and he'll have no motivation after that, personally.
^^Unfortunately you may be right, but I'd rather not think about it..
I want anyone to find me a player who can hit a shot like this...a six like this with SUCH A STRAIGHT BAT.. This shot has ALWAYS mesmerized me and continues to do so..The technique involved in playing a shot like this is UNREAL....
Jump to 8.37 in this video, and watch that shot.....wankable stuff
MENTAL...and this is 12 years ago!
I feel most of Tendulkar's critics or the ones that belittle his achievements are those that think he has only been doing it the last 10 years or so when cricket has become more of a batsman's game, but totally ignore his efforts from 1992-2000 when he was equally fecking fantastic and better than any other batsman in the game during that time period too!
I want anyone to find me a player who can hit a shot like this...a six like this with SUCH A STRAIGHT BAT.. This shot has ALWAYS mesmerized me and continues to do so..The technique involved in playing a shot like this is UNREAL....
Jump to 8.37 in this video, and watch that shot.....wankable stuff
MENTAL...and this is 12 years ago!
I feel most of Tendulkar's critics or the ones that belittle his achievements are those that think he has only been doing it the last 10 years or so when cricket has become more of a batsman's game, but totally ignore his efforts from 1992-2000 when he was equally fecking fantastic and better than any other batsman in the game during that time period too!
I'm going to see that. But is it the one off moody? The one which looks like a straight drive past the bowler but instead goes out of the park and bounces on the roof? Was an unreal shot.
Anyone who actually has doubts about him is off their rockers. The guy is a freak of nature. He's the kind of player you see once in your whole lifetime. A player like that transcends things like pitch conditions etc. He is so universal. He's done it in a good team, in an average team, under immense pressure, at 16, in every country, when chasing a game, when saving a game etc
And like you've said, people seem to bracket Sachin along with the post 2000 period forget that this is a man who has dominated since the decade before that. The list of bowlers he's faced is testament to the fact that you can't attach any labels to him. He's faced circumstances of all kinds.
^^
Its the same one you are describing except its Kasprovicz ..
As for all those who say Tendulkar didn't face good bowling, god knows which world they are in!
He was up against the likes of Curtly Ambrose, Courtney Walsh, Alan Donald, Pollock, Wasim Akram, Waqar Younis, Glen McGrath, Shane Warne, Shoaib Akhtar, Muralitharan....
shit bowlers all of them..
Its the same one you are describing except its Kasprovicz ..
As for all those who say Tendulkar didn't face good bowling, god knows which world they are in!
He was up against the likes of Curtly Ambrose, Courtney Walsh, Alan Donald, Pollock, Wasim Akram, Waqar Younis, Glen McGrath, Shane Warne, Shoaib Akhtar, Muralitharan....
shit bowlers all of them..
and the players Tendulkar batted alongside before the Dravids and Gangulys came into the picture
Sidhu, an incredibly inconsistent Azhar, Kambli?! Jadega? Mongia?! Manjrekar?..a bowling attack of Venkatesh freaking Prasad and Srinath, and possibly Sunil effing Joshi?!.......surrounded by mediocrity or inconsistency, he was India's only hope of winning matches..
Lara had one hell of a bowling attack, and do I even need to talk about the Windies batting line ups and bowling attacking when Viv Richards was playing...
and despite that, he has better records than both of them as a player, in every single important statistic, even if we see his record up until 2000, he was miles ahead of Lara in terms of averages, centuries and 50s..
If I recall correctly, up until 2000, the only player who came close to matching Tendulkar's centuries in ODI cricket was....Saeed Anwar! and then later on Ganguly had that honour...
Sidhu, an incredibly inconsistent Azhar, Kambli?! Jadega? Mongia?! Manjrekar?..a bowling attack of Venkatesh freaking Prasad and Srinath, and possibly Sunil effing Joshi?!.......surrounded by mediocrity or inconsistency, he was India's only hope of winning matches..
Lara had one hell of a bowling attack, and do I even need to talk about the Windies batting line ups and bowling attacking when Viv Richards was playing...
and despite that, he has better records than both of them as a player, in every single important statistic, even if we see his record up until 2000, he was miles ahead of Lara in terms of averages, centuries and 50s..
If I recall correctly, up until 2000, the only player who came close to matching Tendulkar's centuries in ODI cricket was....Saeed Anwar! and then later on Ganguly had that honour...
He's the best. When you look at the whole picture, considering how he inspired this nation, dealt with the pressure, longetivety and performances in both forms of the games, he will always come out on top.
I think it's going to be a long wait till we see anything like him. With the introduction of T20 it's quite likely that technique becomes less and less important although averages will most likely go higher and higher.
Unfortunately very true...
There might be many players who can hit more powerful shots than him and smack the ball out of the ground, but when it comes to pure technique, cricketing shots, he oozes class!
Sehwag, Afridi, Yuvraj Singh, Ricardo Powel (at a stage) etc etc..you will see many players like that come and go, basically big hitters and definitely excite the crowd, but rarely will you see someone with such perfection in technique like Sachin has..Textbook like stuff..
I'd much rather watch Tendulkar play a cover drive than any of those players smash a bowler for six.
Just watching every aspect of him bat, his timing, balance of weight, footwork, hand eye coordination, placement, concentration, composure, defense, knowing when to give the charge and go on the offensive, cheekiness etc etc.... Batting perfection.
You speak my language Zain.
But it's because we're in a minority, T20 and ODI are becoming the formats of choice in the minds of the public. Whenever I ask a non purist whether they know about what happened in this series, they'll go 'test match? the 5 day one?' with a disgusted look on their faces. Bloody pissing off.
Lara had a good bowling attack aiding him only till the mid-point of his career.
Lara was the better batsman in Tests but Tendulkar was much better in ODIs.
And one can't really compare Richards and Tendulkar without coming to blows (the difference in eras is quite clear despite the relatively few years in between). I think we are getting a slightly one-sided debate here because most of the posters on the thread are Indian and there is no one from the West-Indies.
And in no way am I doubting Tendulkar, I absolutely loved the guy and think that his batting in the early part of his career was as good as we are ever going to see from a young batsman.
Lara faded slightly in his older years. He stuck around for as long as he could, but sometimes you can only do so much. The fact that he's a twice single innings world record holder says enough. Most teams struggle to reach 350 runs in a test and he did it himself twice
Lara faded slightly in his older years. He stuck around for as long as he could, but sometimes you can only do so much. The fact that he's a twice single innings world record holder says enough. Most teams struggle to reach 350 runs in a test and he did it himself twice
Sehwag has scored a triple hundred, Sachin hasn't. Sachin is miles the better player.
Sachin's done enough. If my word isn't enough, then Bradmans should be. If that isn't enough the record books should. Anyways, when all of it isn't, history will remember him as the best of his generation and probably the best of the modern game.
Young batsman? How often have you seen a batsman at 37 averaging 90 plus for the year. Btw, Sanjeev why 'loved'? What happened there
Anyways, I'm just kicked at these last few years. When he had all those injuries I just wanted him to retire, it was hard to watch him never at a hundred percent. But he's once again shown what a true champion he is and given fans like me a few years more of vintage Tendulkar. Frankly, anything he does these days is a bonus for me. I know I've witnessed a sportsman than one is truly lucky to. But this has been the icing. I'm always in his 'corner' but frankly, he can do nothing else and still be at the highest pedestrian for me.
except it won't unless your history books are written by Indian cricket fans.
But it's funny, it's as if cricket didn't exist before 1990(chuckle!).You also talk as if there weren't any bowlers before this time. . .but the likes of Richards faced Lillee(best Aus fast bowler of all time), Hadlee, Imran(better than Younis, Akram and Akhtar), Thompson, Willis(best english fast bowler since Trueman), Botham, Kapil Devil(best Indian seamer ever) etc. They all bowled in much better conditions as well whereas post 80s the conditions favoured the batsmen. Bradman was a freak, I can't compare him to anyone nor will I because I never watched him play but I've seen some great players who I can comment on - Unlike many in this thread. Richards is head and shoulders, knees and toes above any batsman I have see play. I repeat I HAVE SEEN PLAY.
I think it would be worthwhile comparing the standard devation from averages of the era. In the 80s averaging 50 meant you were in a very smal minority, while in the 2000s good but not great batsmen average 50, such as Smith, Clarke, Hussey, Pietersen (before current run of form), Sewag(ok, maybe great), Gambir, Younis, Yousuf, Dravid and I'm sure many more.
That's why Viv's average of 50 is worth more than it appears these days. Like it or not having Zimbabwe and Bangladesh playing test cricket along with other factors has inflated averages.
That's why Viv's average of 50 is worth more than it appears these days. Like it or not having Zimbabwe and Bangladesh playing test cricket along with other factors has inflated averages.
Well that's all well and good, but that doesn't make you right.
Oh no, I never said that Richards played crap bowling, but I said that the bowling Sachin faced was not lesser. And the pitches have gotten flatter later on, Sachin's played on all sorts of pitches.
I can come up with a bunch of bowlers as good if not better than the ones you've mentioned but it's not going to take this anywhere.
Gavaskar average over 50. He himself would acknowledge that Sachin's on a different level.
Except you'd be talking out of your arse. You can't substitute watching players first hand. Which is why I've not commented on Bradman and Sobers. I can only talk about things I've seen.
I blame pitches. Just look at how much Pietersen suffers on a pitch that offers a bit of lateral movement. They're all so used to playing on the front foot thanks to docile conditions.
No I wouldn't. Really thought you'd know that given you've followed cricket even these last 20 years. Fairly obvious.
I'll post a list tomorrow. Wait for it.
Yes but players like Sachin, Lara and Dravid have dealt with everything that has come their way. They would excel in any generation.
You've not seen the players I mentioned, so you can't comment. Which is why you'd be talking out of your arse.
I haven't watched tennis before the Sampras era but I know Federer is one of the best of all time. You don't? Shame.
One of the best. Yes. There's a huge difference between calling someone the greatest and one of the best.
Only Rubber Chef talks in detail about players he hasn't seen.
Cricket is different. Unlike other sports, apart from videos of old matches, you have statistics that tell a huge story. The game didn't change that drastically in Sachin & Lara's era or at least the first three fourths of it, from Richards. Well it changed, but it's not an unrecognizable game ala the Bradman era. So there are plenty of conclusions you can draw.
There are a huge amount of factors that lead me to believe that he's the best batsman of the modern game. Hardly a controversial opinion too. The man is a genius.
It's not really. For example Petersen's average was higher than Richards' last year, however if anyone called him better or as good they would've been sent to a loony asylum. But as I've said, conditions have changed and it's a batsmen friendly game which wasn't the case pre 90s. So, perhaps batmen of pre 90s should be rated even higher, come to think of it.
But my point stands, you can't comment on players you've haven't been...regardless of stats. Stats will never give you a proper picture. Leave the likes of Rubber Chef to argue about players they never seen. Tendulkar is a great batsman so let's leave it at that. He's not the best I've seen and that's that really, although the greatest under 5ft5 most definitely.
I'm not relying on stats, but I'd say Sir Viv was more aggressive/powerful and better than Sachin in the shorter version of the game. Richards over aggressive nature likely stopped him achieving more than his talents deserved in the test arena.
The arrogance and power of Sir Viv
Sachin the silent assassin
Sachin the silent assassin