Ryan Gravenberch

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UnitedSofa

You'll Never Walk Away
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Saw this on Twitter and thought it might be of interest for some debate, even if there are no credible rumours, think we could get some decent discussion out of it. I'd be up for this transfer, but it would be another one of the players that EtH knows and I know a lot of fans aren't keen on getting ALL the players that EtH has worked with before.

But what do you guys think?

 
It would definitely be an upgrade to Donny. Has the physicality needed for the premier league and could use some more tutoring by ETH.
 
Should go into the football forum for now. Got excited we were linked for a bit or he was available.

That being said, would be a good McTom replacement - he would be a different option for Eriksens role, but not as good of a passer. I don't think defensively he's up to scratch to play any other role.
 
Lash said:
Should go into the football forum for now. Got excited we were linked for a bit or he was available.

That being said, would be a good McTom replacement - he would be a different option for Eriksens role, but not as good of a passer. I don't think defensively he's up to scratch to play any other role.
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Same :lol:
 
He'll be a crucial part of Bayern over the coming seasons. And United will have different CM targets. Absolutely 100% nothing to see here
 
I hate when people start transfer threads for no reason.
 
Cina said:
Do not create threads for players unless you can provide a source. If there's no source then you're simply discussing a footballer, so go to the Football Forum instead
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Start a thread in the footy forum unless he's actually solidly linked with us.
 
Think he’s a good prospect. Wasn’t even close to being ready for a move to Bayern, still isn’t, so no we should not loan him. We shouldn’t be a development team for others young players.
 
Missed the World Cup because he decided to sit on the bench... Dont think the move was the best for his career. Hopefully he isnt going to lose too many years sitting on the bench because he is a good player.
 
Ten Hag wanted him but he already gave his word to Bayern.
Seems like a stupid fecking decision
 
Cheimoon said:
Seems like United is being linked to every single Dutch or Eredivisie player that might be available in the summer and plays in one of United's supposed priority positions. :lol:
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By the players own words Ten Hag tired to high Jack the move as soon as he was made United manager.
It’s bad news for other interested parties if we are after him
 
ForeverRed1 said:
Tbf he was quality under ETH for Ajax
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cyberman said:
By the players own words Ten Hag tired to high Jack the move as soon as he was made United manager.
It’s bad news for other interested parties if we are after him
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Sure, and United does need more quality and coherence in its midfield squad. (Re. coherence: there are two many players with different profiles, meaning that a lot of rejigging is required when a first-choice players isn't available.) The focus on players with that Dutch or Eredivisie background is funny though. It was the same last summer and I bet a lot of it comes purely from agents and journalists who know this sort of story will get traction.

Would be fun to be able to find out after every transfer window which rumours were actually true, but I guess that won't be happening. :)
 
It does worry me that the majority of our links are to players that have played their highest levels at Eriedivisie level. Gravenberch might be a good prospect but I don't think we are going to win the league with a team full of Eriedivisie players.

All these dutch links are also IMHO a sign that the recruitment is still systemically dysfunctional because regardless of what you think of ETH's talent ID, it's never a good sign when the manager seems to be running recruitment. As a full time coach/manager, he just doesn't have the capacity to scout the amount of players he would need to find the best available options and you can see he's picking players he's relied upon in the past or may have emotional attachments to and when that has happened we've ended up paying way above the odds for players like Antony and even Martinez even though they've been on balance good signings.
 
Would be an upgrade on Scott, from what I've seen though, not a huge upgrade.
 
Bojan Djordjic said:
It does worry me that the majority of our links are to players that have played their highest levels at Eriedivisie level. Gravenberch might be a good prospect but I don't think we are going to win the league with a team full of Eriedivisie players.

All these dutch links are also IMHO a sign that the recruitment is still systemically dysfunctional because regardless of what you think of ETH's talent ID, it's never a good sign when the manager seems to be running recruitment. As a full time coach/manager, he just doesn't have the capacity to scout the amount of players he would need to find the best available options and you can see he's picking players he's relied upon in the past or may have emotional attachments to and when that has happened we've ended up paying way above the odds for players like Antony and even Martinez even though they've been on balance good signings.
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We only paid £47m for Martinez (with a few more million in potential add-ons). Great price, no?
 
Stadjer said:
He was compared to Pogba while he was playing in the Ajax youth. I dont think Gravenberch at his best will be as good as Pogba could be at his best though.
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I don't think it's his talent level necessarily, but maybe similar traits is the reason for the comparison.
 
redcucumber said:
We only paid £47m for Martinez (with a few more million in potential add-ons). Great price, no?
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Depends which way you look at it. Is he worth that much or would we achieve that price if we sold him: almost certainly. Is that a price we should have been paying to an Eriedivisie team for a CB: probably not. I think if we showed any sign that we were prepared to walk away, I'm sure Ajax would have sold him for cheaper but I think its a situation where ETH's public hard lines on who he wants works against us in terms of negotiations. It was the same with Antony although the timing of our bid also contrived to screw us over on that price.
 
Bojan Djordjic said:
Depends which way you look at it. Is he worth that much or would we achieve that price if we sold him: almost certainly. Is that a price we should have been paying to an Eriedivisie team for a CB: probably not. I think if we showed any sign that we were prepared to walk away, I'm sure Ajax would have sold him for cheaper but I think its a situation where ETH's public hard lines on who he wants works against us in terms of negotiations. It was the same with Antony although the timing of our bid also contrived to screw us over on that price.
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Hmmm. I get what you're saying. It felt like we overpaid at the time in part to acquiesce the manager, but in hindsight he's proven to be worth every penny and now represents good value for money (so far, still relatively early days). Anything above the 60-70m mark seems to be laden with risk and end up invariably flattering to deceive.
 
redcucumber said:
Hmmm. I get what you're saying. It felt like we overpaid at the time in part to acquiesce the manager, but in hindsight he's proven to be worth every penny and now represents good value for money (so far, still relatively early days). Anything above the 60-70m mark seems to be laden with risk and end up invariably flattering to deceive.
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Ah yeah, look, definitely not bitter about the Lisandro fee in hindsight. Absolutely love the guy but just felt like we got rinsed a bit at the time for a player that ultimately was ETH's second choice in that backline after TImber turned us down. He's just turned out way better than I would have imagined.
 
Mainoldo said:
B tec Bellingham.
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I think I'd take that over actual Bellingham though. Nowhere near as prohibitive on the price and might enable us to go and spend the bulk of the funds on a midfielder who actually matches the profile of our primary need in that position.
 
Wasn't he touted as the future midfield of Bayern? Why would they let him go?
 
Ramshock said:
Posted overconfidently by someone who didnt know he starred under Ten Hag for Ajax :lol:
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I know he did, and those of course are even more likely to be linked to United. :)
 
Bojan Djordjic said:
It does worry me that the majority of our links are to players that have played their highest levels at Eriedivisie level. Gravenberch might be a good prospect but I don't think we are going to win the league with a team full of Eriedivisie players.

All these dutch links are also IMHO a sign that the recruitment is still systemically dysfunctional because regardless of what you think of ETH's talent ID, it's never a good sign when the manager seems to be running recruitment. As a full time coach/manager, he just doesn't have the capacity to scout the amount of players he would need to find the best available options and you can see he's picking players he's relied upon in the past or may have emotional attachments to and when that has happened we've ended up paying way above the odds for players like Antony and even Martinez even though they've been on balance good signings.
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To be fair, Gravenberch was considered a bit of a wonderkid at Ajax and all the top clubs were interested in him. It was considered to be quite a coup for Bayern to get him so cheaply, which I think was due to an expiring contract, although I'm not entirely sure.

I'm also not sure why he's stalled since moving there, but I think he's had a few injuries. The main reason is probably because Kimmich and Gotetzka are much better players than him at the moment.

Anyway, I get what you're saying in regards to only being linked with Dutch/Eredivisie players, but if it's people like FdJ and Gravenberch then I don't have an issue with it.

There's plenty of quality to come from that league too. Martinez is our most recent example, but Eriksen joined Spurs from Ajax as well back in the day.
 
Bojan Djordjic said:
Depends which way you look at it. Is he worth that much or would we achieve that price if we sold him: almost certainly. Is that a price we should have been paying to an Eriedivisie team for a CB: probably not. I think if we showed any sign that we were prepared to walk away, I'm sure Ajax would have sold him for cheaper but I think its a situation where ETH's public hard lines on who he wants works against us in terms of negotiations. It was the same with Antony although the timing of our bid also contrived to screw us over on that price.
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What other meaningful way is there to look at it except him being worth 47 million based on ability, performance, or if you want to go even further... achievement given he just won the world cup. Those are the things that actually matter whereas "not a price we should pay an Eredivisie side" is completely arbitrary. It's just not a metric in any way shape or form, it's based on the vagaries of a gut feeling on an entire league and had it been followed we wouldn't have got a top player.

Even if we do go down that route I'd say it's a little insulting to a side like Ajax. They've got eyes like we have even if they are Dutch. If they have a talent they believe is ready for a club of our stature under long term contract, they're not selling for 25 million in the year 2022. It seems a fairly normal price to be honest, Ajax are a strong club, it's a bit different to buying from Fortuna Sittard. So I don't think there can be a blanket idea about the Eredivisie. Depends on the club and quality of player like everywhere else.

I think Antony is an example of where we were a little too keen to press home the manager's idea at any cost. That was a lot more expensive and therefore entailed too much risk for the profile of the player, plus most importantly he has under delivered on it so far.
 
Abraxas said:
What other meaningful way is there to look at it except him being worth 47 million based on ability, performance, or if you want to go even further... achievement given he just won the world cup. Those are the things that actually matter whereas "not a price we should pay an Eredivisie side" is completely arbitrary. It's just not a metric in any way shape or form, it's based on the vagaries of a gut feeling on an entire league and had it been followed we wouldn't have got a top player.

Even if we do go down that route I'd say it's a little insulting to a side like Ajax. They've got eyes like we have even if they are Dutch. If they have a talent they believe is ready for a club of our stature under long term contract, they're not selling for 25 million in the year 2022. It seems a fairly normal price to be honest, Ajax are a strong club, it's a bit different to buying from Fortuna Sittard. So I don't think there can be a blanket idea about the Eredivisie. Depends on the club and quality of player like everywhere else.

I think Antony is an example of where we were a little too keen to press home the manager's idea at any cost. That was a lot more expensive and therefore entailed too much risk for the profile of the player, plus most importantly he has under delivered on it so far.
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What are you talking about? We bought him before the world cup and of course there is an expectation that there is a premium for players in stronger leagues than there is as you for players in Holland as the step up is so great. Think you are being naive if you don't see that teams in leagues that don't have access to mega tv deals have the same financial leverage as clubs in the PL or la liga. What would Malacia have cost us if he were buying him from Brighton/Leicester? Wouldn't have been €14mn. You're talking like budget is arbitrary but we were in a position in January where we couldn't even contemplate buying €20mn players because of our overspend in the summer.
 
Bojan Djordjic said:
What are you talking about? We bought him before the world cup and of course there is an expectation that there is a premium for players in stronger leagues than there is as you for players in Holland as the step up is so great. Think you are being naive if you don't see that teams in leagues that don't have access to mega tv deals have the same financial leverage as clubs in the PL or la liga. What would Malacia have cost us if he were buying him from Brighton/Leicester? Wouldn't have been €14mn. You're talking like budget is arbitrary but we were in a position in January where we couldn't even contemplate buying €20mn players because of our overspend in the summer.
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What I'm talking about is the statement you made, "Is that a price we should be paying an Eredivisie team for a CB, probably not." Which is based on what? Nothing really, it's just an arbitrary opinion. The only thing that is going into that opinion is the nationality of a league, compared to the detailed analysis a recruitment team can make.

As with any signing in football, the ends justify the means. If he performs as one of the best CBs in the league and wins a world cup in the season after we buy him, then most definitely yes, it was a price that we should have paid an Eredivisie side for a CB. That seems fairly intuitive to me.

I don't think the Malacia point or the point about wider PL valuations is especially relevant to the point about Martinez. It's obvious that on average PL players cost more. It's obvious Malacia cost a lot less. Does it matter to whether the Martinez valuation was good? Not for me. It's an individual deal and they always have their own details making up the valuation.
 
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