A non Russian source? Mate it’s a video of dead civvies being carried out whilst fecking SWAT is moving in on the rest. I understand being objective but can’t you actually watch something without doubting anything?
Russian invasion of Ukraine | Fewer tweets, more discussion
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For balance, we should ask for non-NATO sources, too, then. Or is our media entirely honest with us? Does it tell us that we go support tyrants for the sake of military and economic reasons? Is it doing that now with respect to the Ukraine situation? If the answer to the last question is no, then you have to look beyond NATO host countries, too.
About as bipartisan as you will get.
Sorry I can't actually form an opinion on your claim based on that video that is a 30 sec series of individual clips.
And I don't always doubt what I watch, but when I do, it's usually on the propaganda channels.
You post a block of text, at least provide a link to it.
I hope Lavrov is how hе’s thought of - phenomenal diplomat. If not, we could be heading into deep waters.
As exciting as some may find this, rest assured;- physical, psychological and economical destruction is going to be mutual.
As exciting as some may find this, rest assured;- physical, psychological and economical destruction is going to be mutual.
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I thought you’d have been following this at least since then the maidan revolution.
And now they are fecking off leaving Europe to deal with the mess and another "converted democratic country", just like the rest they put their touch on. I just hate it when they always put their finger in any conflict there is..
Putin is on record, saying that Russia were willing to join NATO? Why weren’t they allowed if they were perceived as one of potential threats?
I’m not a Putin apologist but it’s easy to buy into the anti-Russian propaganda.
https://www.ohchr.org/EN/Countries/ENACARegion/Pages/UAReports.aspx
It's the UN report on human rights abuses in Ukraine. You can find many of such reports, including the one above, in that link. The first one is the most relevant for the frame I am talking about. That can be downloaded in PDF form here.
Alternatively you can read it in article form here: https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2021/12/20/ukra-d20.html.
Though some will prefer to read the verbatim UN document as the source I cite from, in article form, pushes its own narrative. Of relevance is the embedded material from the report, not the rhetoric which frames it.
@TheReligion would something happen? Who knows but something could absolutely untangle.
Edit: I’m assuming this video is from some kind of anti conflict think tank. I’ve seen a similar and for the most part - I think the whole world wound be absolutely devastated if something similar were to happen.
Edit: I’m assuming this video is from some kind of anti conflict think tank. I’ve seen a similar and for the most part - I think the whole world wound be absolutely devastated if something similar were to happen.
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2022: "So we heard everyone was getting sick of the pandemic, how about Cold War 2.0 or WWIII"
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I just spoke to a Ukrainian lawyer who regularly works with highly-placed Slavic oligarchs: There are 8 scenarios from here on in.
Only 2 scenarios involve Russia NOT invading. Right now it looks likely that Russia will invade early February (according to the lawyer)
Only 2 scenarios involve Russia NOT invading. Right now it looks likely that Russia will invade early February (according to the lawyer)
Last I saw was that diplomats most remained but their families had gone
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/17/us/politics/russia-ukraine-kyiv-embassy.html
On the face if it though both moves are indicative that there is a realistic chance things escalate
Regardless of which side you on in this, who ever thinks that US/West are good guys and Russia are bad one or vice versa, those people are dumb as rocks. Propaganda and bullshit coming from both sides, people getting fed by their media and dumb fecks will eat all up. This is just a game between superpower cnuts countries where real people between them will suffer and get hurt at the end. fecking hate politics.
Well said, the only people I feel sorry for in all of this are the poor people of Ukraine who will get caught up in whatever shit goes down.
War is a Racket - Smedley D. Butler
War is a racket. It always has been. It is possibly the oldest, easily the most profitable, surely the most vicious. It is the only one international in scope. It is the only one in which the profits are reckoned in dollars and the losses in lives. A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of the people. Only a small 'inside' group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few, at the expense of the very many. Out of war a few people make huge fortunes.
Russian Foreign Ministry:
“We call on the British Foreign Office to stop its provocative activities and focus on studying the history of the Tatar-Mongol yoke”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...c0999e-7bde-11ec-b79d-e53ef5e1fbe2_story.html
“We call on the British Foreign Office to stop its provocative activities and focus on studying the history of the Tatar-Mongol yoke”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...c0999e-7bde-11ec-b79d-e53ef5e1fbe2_story.html
What's funny about that? It seems an accurate statement.
What is your position, also, because I see you providing a running commentary like a transfer news outlet. Are you living in Ukraine? Are you Ukranian? Or are you talking to two or three Ukranian people and assuming that anything contrary to their opinion is incorrect? A genuine question, not trying to provoke.
First off, that question is provocative.
As for your other questions, I think you already know the answer. I don't live in Ukraine but I speak daily to Ukrainians. I've said numerous times in this thread that I don't believe my small sample size can count as the truth. I'm just updating whoever is interested in what I heard from some Ukrainians.
Lastly, I laughed because @R'hllor's post is basically: "I'm taking a stand against people taking a stand." There are no good guys or bad guys. They're basically all bad guys. Hitler = Churchill.
Politicians are scum, I agree, but to vindicate Russia in any way is delusional. No amount of propaganda can cloud the fact that Putin is a dick. In this crisis the West is defending Ukraine's sovereignty and Putin is trying to deny them that. No propaganda here, just facts.
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The primary aim isn't to defend Ukrainian democracy is it? It's to maintain US/Nato strategic interests (consequences be damned), which is always the reason clouded behind some simple media spin that is easy for some to consume and get behind.
I don't think the poster is excusing Russia as much as pointing out there's no good guys but there would be a lot of victims.
It isn't provocative. If it stood by itself, I would agree but in this context:
You are positioning yourself as an expert, perhaps unintentionally. People have the right to ask what qualifies you to speak about the Ukrainian psyche as if it were monolithic. That's what I'm talking about.
Fair enough.
That's not how I interpret his post. He seems to be saying that each side (NATO/Russia) is using propaganda to mislead their own people into supporting action that is hard to support when spoken about truthfully.
10 million Russian people live in the Ukraine. That's a quarter of Ukraine's entire population. It doesn't justify Russia in invading Ukraine, but the situation isn't as simple as "Putin is a dick".
The West doesn't care about Ukraine's sovereignty. Unless sovereignty means "more land and economic benefit for us". It cares about undermining Russia's sphere of influence and trying to co-opt that sphere for themselves.
The fact is, 20%-25% of Ukranians are Russian and identify as such. The are three times more Russian nationals in Ukraine than there are active forces in the top ten NATO states combined (just over 3 million NATO active forces compared to 9.5/10 million Russian Ukranians).
Exactly right. It could lead to a devastating civil war which would hurt Ukranians and Russians living in Ukraine but won't hurt NATO one bit. NATO is playing hard and lose because it has nothing material to lose - it does not care about Ukranian people.
"Regardless of which side you on in this, who ever thinks that US/West are good guys and Russia are bad one or vice versa, those people are dumb as rocks."
So, the poster is saying if you think Russia are bad (or doing something bad) then you are as dumb as a rock. I don't agree. At all. I know the West aren't angels, but there are certain things that are undeniable. I'm all for objectivity and being on the lookout for propaganda on both sides, but I'm taking a stand and this is where I stand:
- The West has more freedom of press, so news from the West is more reliable than news from state-owned Russia.
- Putin wants to control another country. The same country he stole land from just a few years ago. The same country that no-one defended when it mattered.
- The primary aim of the West isn't to defend democracy, but it is certainly one of their main aims. One of Putin's main aims is to attack it. I'm pro-democracy, so I'm anti-Putin.
- I respect other people's viewpoints that one cannot trust politicians. I don't. But some politicians are worse than others and there is a difference between "less immoral and more immoral". All things aren't equal, as the poster alluded to.
You have every right to disagree with me and for that matter, you might be right about everything you wrote.
What I do have a problem with is the quote above, where you conveniently skipped the last bit of my post, where I wrote "I'm just writing what they told me. They might be wrong, after all." I'm not positioning myself as an expert and never will, because I'm not an expert. If that is how you see it then the problem lies with you, not with me.
Anyway, all good. We have different opinions ;-)
Use sources that aren't Western or Russian. Neither is reliable when the conflict is partisan. And state-owned Russian press is propaganda but it's honest propaganda. You know it's a state mouthpiece. A lot of western states function the same way but pretend otherwise. Can you forget the Iraq War so quickly? Almost unanimous support of that in the press despite enormous resistance to it at public level. That is propaganda.
Yes, Russia wants to control Ukraine and the West wants to undermine Russia. No arguments. The reason no one defended Ukraine is because NATO does not care about it. It is "defending" it now because it has nothing to lose. What does it matter to NATO if Ukranians and Russians die? All NATO loses is billions of dollars worth of military equipment which has already been paid for by the tax payers of participant countries and filled the pockets of billionaire shareholders. WIN/WIN, right?
When has it ever defended democracy? One example would suit me. I can't think of one. I can think of many examples where the West actively murdered democratically elected officials because they were left-leaning (that's modern South American history for you and the installation of fascists by the West).
I largely agree with this but I would argue that people should depersonalise politics. Look at the system instead of the face on the can. The global military industrial complex preexists all current politicians. Putin is a tyrant, but of more interest is the Russian state apparatus and the various NATO state appartuses. Forget the personalities. That in itself is propaganda.
Perhaps. No problem.
Honest propaganda
Honest propaganda
It's impossible to not view it as propaganda. So it's honest when you understand you're getting the Kremlin's view.
@neverdie I'm not really in the mood to debate this with you. I know I should, but the motivation just isn't there. It might be the 41 degrees Celsius talking. I've said what I needed to. Just remember, I'm not an expert. The fact that you thought that I was trying to intentionally or unintentionally position myself as one, has made me reconsider posting in here again. I just thought it would be interesting for the Caf to hear what a few people have told me.
I genuinely don’t see the west backing down anymore so I guess it depends on how far Russia is prepared to go..
Unless they start machine gunning civilians mid Kiev on live TV, the west won't do shit in a direct military fashion. Economically there would be the biggest sanctions Russia has ever seen of course.
If Putin isn't the bad guy in this i don't know what to believe anymore. Sure the west has interest in this too, but can interest not also come from a good place? Protecting Ukraine's sovereignity is the most important thing imo, and the west gives them a chance to do that via goods.
Tbf it's difficult to not be a bit suspicious of a guy who poison the people he view as enemies.
Tbf it's difficult to not be a bit suspicious of a guy who poison the people he view as enemies.
Your going to have to explain then how the US/West are making Russia invade Ukraine?
I don't own the thread. You should keep posting. Might just be that we disagree.
Isn't it easier to understand it as Putin being one bad actor among many self-interested bad actors? We're talking about vast apparatuses on each side of the split. It isn't like Putin and Biden are conducting this themselves. They're heads of state but state-planning supersedes American presidencies and the same, to a certain extent, was/is true in Russia. If Putin wasn't there, you'd see a similar response. The sheer number of Russians in Ukraine and the whole sphere of influence issue means that any Russian leader who didn't take this seriously would be shot in the head.
We need a back-up planet. Maybe Elon could fast track his Mars plans so we have somewhere to go and fight when earth is dying from pollution and wars.
I think you’ll be surprised in that case.
A full on invasion of Ukraine won’t be allowed to happen.
I understand that Putin and Biden are the poster boys for their countrys and that there is a lot of people behind them.
The number of Russians in Ukraine may matter to Russia, but it's not a valid excuse (for sane people at Least), to invade them or steal land. I assume there is a reason why a more pro-west leader was elected in Ukraine. The majority doesn't want to be a puppet state to Russia.
That's how i view the situation at least.