Rugby 2017 Discussion

I'm not sure I see the 2005 side as stronger than this lot.....I mean yeah, theres certainly a few question marks, and the Lions are in a much much better place, though still not where they should be for the real once every 12 years tour.

The 2005 squad was riddled with the 2003-07 failures, this one has only known winning, ruthlessly for the most part. The same ruthless mentality that's seen Savea, who will just put another notch on his try list last weekend....dropped. No way that happens in 2005, he probably wouldn't have to got to 30 in 2005 mind you given theres always an endless talent....but it seems like he may not get to 27 in this one.

Just hoping theres not some massive coming out party for Barrett, because he's fully capable of it, he's emerging big time from Carters shadow.
 
Zen said:
I'm not sure I see the 2005 side as stronger than this lot......
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Ben Smith 15 Leon MacDonald
Israel Dagg 14 Doug Howlett
Ryan Crotty 13 Tana Umaga
Sonny Bill Williams 12 Aaron Mauger
Rieko Ioane 11 Sitiveni Sivivatu
Beauden Barrett 10 Daniel Carter
Aaron Smith 9 Justin Marshall
Kieran Read 8 Rodney So'oialo
Sam Cane 7 Richie McCaw
Jerome Kaino 6 Jerry Collins
Sam Whitelock 5 Ali Williams
Brodie Retallick 4 Chris Jack
Owen Franks 3 Carl Hayman
Codie Taylor 2 Keven Mealamu
Joe Moody 1 Tony Woodcock

Nathan Harris 16 Derren Witcombe
Wyatt Crockett 17 Greg Somerville
Charlie Faumuina 18 (None)
Scott Barrett 19 Jono Gibbes
Ardie Savea 20 Sione Lauaki
TJ Perenara 21 Byron Kelleher
Aaron Cruden 22 Rico Gear
Anton Lienert-Brown 23 Mils Muliaina​

Those are the first test selections from this year versus 2005. I think they were much stronger back then. Looking at those combinations, I'd say the front row, back row, halfbacks, centres, wingers and bench were all better in '05. This years side probably have the edge at fullback and in the second row.
 
Well! Williams at full-back after all. I stand corrected. CJ Stander will feel very unlucky not to be in this squad.

15. Liam Williams – Scarlets, Wales, #833
14. Anthony Watson – Bath Rugby, England, #816
13. Jonathan Davies – Scarlets, Wales, #778
12. Ben Te’o – Worcester Warriors, England, #815
11. Elliot Daly – Wasps, England, #822
10. Owen Farrell – Saracens, England, #780
9. Conor Murray – Munster, Ireland, #790

1. Mako Vunipola – Saracens, England, #787
2. Jamie George – Saracens, England, #819
3. Tadhg Furlong – Leinster, Ireland, #818
4. Alun Wyn Jones – Ospreys, Wales, #761
5. George Kruis – Saracens, England, #817
6. Peter O’Mahony (capt) – Munster, Ireland, #832
7. Sean O’Brien – Leinster, Ireland, #796
8. Taulupe Faletau – Bath Rugby, Wales, #779

Replacements
16. Ken Owens – Scarlets, Wales, #829
17. Jack McGrath – Leinster, Ireland, #827
18. Kyle Sinckler – Harlequins, England, #814
19. Maro Itoje – Saracens, England, #825
20. Sam Warburton – Cardiff Blues, Wales, #800
21. Rhys Webb – Ospreys, Wales, #820
22. Johnny Sexton – Leinster, Ireland, #791
23. Leigh Halfpenny – Toulon, Wales, #775
 
Like that Lions side. Not sure about AWJ over Itoje but I guess Gatland thinks the young lad will offer huge impact off the bench.

Delighted to see Williams at fullback over Halfpenny - think he offers much more in attack. It's a mistake to put Halfpenny on the bench though, it should have been Daly.

Edit: Just seen that Daly is starting instead of North. Great selection!
 
Exciting back 3, Gatland can't be criticised for that. The pressure is on Farrell to deliver from the boot with no Halfpenny in the lineup.
 
Zoo said:
Exciting back 3, Gatland can't be criticised for that. The pressure is on Farrell to deliver from the boot with no Halfpenny in the lineup.
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A few problems for me, as much as I love that back 3 but with a centre partnership with Te'o/Davies surely they won't create much. Everyone will be excited about it but they won't see much of the ball.

I really don't like AWJ over Itoje, other then experience Itoje has been far better on this tour and would have the benefit of him partner his club team mate Kruis. Other one is Warburton over Tipuric for bench spot, Sam isn not a great impact sub and Tipuric has been class.
 
Good 22, with (hopefully) real impact from the bench. Months ago I feared this tour might be a car crash despite a talented pool of players but, so far, the coaching team has proved me wrong. While we tend to focus on the brilliance of the All Backs, on paper this Lions team is a cut above the Aus/SA/Arg teams they have been thrashing for the last couple of years.
 
Struggling to get excited about Saturday with no Scots involved, although I'm not surprised. I definitely would have picked Itoje over AWJ. Still, I think this Lions team is in with a real chance. Like O'Mahony as captain too. Think whoever wins this first Test will win the series.
 
Rooney1987 said:
A few problems for me, as much as I love that back 3 but with a centre partnership with Te'o/Davies surely they won't create much. Everyone will be excited about it but they won't see much of the ball.

I really don't like AWJ over Itoje, other then experience Itoje has been far better on this tour and would have the benefit of him partner his club team mate Kruis. Other one is Warburton over Tipuric for bench spot, Sam isn not a great impact sub and Tipuric has been class.
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I think he's chosen that back 3 for their counterattack abilities, 2 of the tries the other night were from opposition mistakes with Williams and Daly looking confident and sharp. I agree on Itoje though he will surely be used as an impact sub in the second half.
 
Itoje is a strange call but I think Nowell has shown too much defensive frailty to be close to a test 23. He's a good finisher but Williams, Halfpenny, Watson, Daly, Seymour, Payne and North are all better defenders in the back 3.
 
It's a big bench....would of been better if he somehow got North on it too, but not sure how you make that work as you can't drop Sexton or Halfpenny from it either. With that in mind, I would of had Halfpenny starting and North bench.....Williams out, given he played midweek? Keeps the clear impact from the bench he's going for knowing that NZ don't tail off much.
 
No Itoje is just wrong. Intrigued by no North.

We'll get beaten either way.
 
Phil said:
We'll be called homers but I fully agree.
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Really? Aside from second row and centre, I think this Lions side is stronger everywhere:

Vunipola - Marler
George - Hartley
Furlong - Cole
Kruis - Kruis
Jones - Launchbury
O'Mahony - Itoje
O'Brien - Haskell
Faletau - Vunipola
Murray - Youngs
Farrell - Ford
Daly - Daly
Te'o - Farrell
Davies - Joseph
Watson - Watson
Williams - Brown

McGrath - Vunipola
Owens - George
Sinckler - Sinckler
Itoje - Lawes
Warburton - Hughes
Webb - Care
Halfpenny - Nowell
 
AWJ call annoys me because this is supposedly picked on form and I wouldn't say he is in the top 3 second rows, let alone top 2.

It's actually a very attacking back line so I'm hopeful we might have a slightly different game plan and run the ball for more phases before going for territory.
 
diarm said:
Really? Aside from second row and centre, I think this Lions side is stronger everywhere:

Vunipola - Marler
George - Hartley
Furlong - Cole
Kruis - Kruis
Jones - Launchbury
O'Mahony - Itoje
O'Brien - Haskell
Faletau - Vunipola
Murray - Youngs
Farrell - Ford
Daly - Daly
Te'o - Farrell
Davies - Joseph
Watson - Watson
Williams - Brown

McGrath - Vunipola
Owens - George
Sinckler - Sinckler
Itoje - Lawes
Warburton - Hughes
Webb - Care
Halfpenny - Nowell
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Probably more to do with tactics,time playing together etc. Standard of players is pretty similar across top teams
 
diarm said:
Really? Aside from second row and centre, I think this Lions side is stronger everywhere:

Vunipola - Marler
George - Hartley
Furlong - Cole
Kruis - Kruis
Jones - Launchbury
O'Mahony - Itoje
O'Brien - Haskell
Faletau - Vunipola
Murray - Youngs
Farrell - Ford
Daly - Daly
Te'o - Farrell
Davies - Joseph
Watson - Watson
Williams - Brown

McGrath - Vunipola
Owens - George
Sinckler - Sinckler
Itoje - Lawes
Warburton - Hughes
Webb - Care
Halfpenny - Nowell
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Hm, I was going with a theoretical clone system where players can represent the Lions and England..

Alongside tactics/game management, management and cohesion etc etc
 
tomaldinho1 said:
Probably more to do with tactics,time playing together etc. Standard of players is pretty similar across top teams
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Ah, fair enough yeah. The settled team will always have the advantage over the Lions but I think a side with a truly great backrow will always give this England side problems.
 
Phil said:
Hm, I was going with a theoretical clone system where players can represent the Lions and England
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As was I. I just put the England side from their last 6N game (plus Kruis) up against the Lions team for the first test.
 
If Lions and England both had Eddie in those head to head comparisons.....I'd swing it towards the Lions too. England have been absolutely gutted, and yet he's pulled off 2 wins in Argentina, in two fantastic matches too to be fair.
 
Zen said:
If Lions and England both had Eddie in those head to head comparisons.....I'd swing it towards the Lions too. England have been absolutely gutted, and yet he's pulled off 2 wins in Argentina, in two fantastic matches too to be fair.
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I'd like to see Jones as the Lions coach in 4 years time. To be honest, had timings worked out differently, he'd be a brilliant coach to take on NZ under!
 
I hope SA have some kind of Eddie Jones-esque turnaround, bit of a shambles at the moment, though I guess they are retaining some respectability with their wins over France.....but legit not sure what's up with South Africa and Australia, both seem well of the standards they've set themselves.

As it stands, what's the selling point if neither improve drastically given England are clearly clearly superior.
 
Zen said:
I hope SA have some kind of Eddie Jones-esque turnaround, bit of a shambles at the moment, though I guess they are retaining some respectability with their wins over France.....but legit not sure what's up with South Africa and Australia, both seem well of the standards they've set themselves.

As it stands, what's the selling point if neither improve drastically given England are clearly clearly superior.
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4 years is a long time in rugby.
 
Given the way England turned themselves around between the 2015 world cup and the 2016 6nations, you'd think some would have longer memories!
 
First off, good to have some internet finally. Fair play to Scotland, they deserved to beat Australia on Saturday. They were better in the first half and in the second half, they did well to withstand whatever the Wallabies threw at them. Can't exonerate the Wallabies for how poor they were: ill discipline, silly mistakes, and not taking opportunities proved costly again. It was a massive issue last year, and it looks like the same thing will happen this year unless something changes.

The Lions better performances have coincided with my internet outage! In all seriousness, in their most recent warm up games, they've shown they can win by producing a truly dominant performance up front, while on Tuesday they were expansive and got good reward for it. Their scrum was dominant and maybe importantly, dominant in the eyes of Jaco Peyper and Jerome Garces who take charge of the first two tests. While the Lions have impressed in their last two warm up games, i think the All Blacks will shade the first test by 7-10 points.

Last year, when discussing Rugby, i was highly critical of the Springboks and Allister Coetzee. Their coach could easily have been sacked after the All Blacks beat the 57-15 in Durban, then really should have been sacked after Italy beat them. No performance clause for his first year plus political pressure may have saved there. In fairness, they've been pretty solid against the French. They haven't really looked like losing either test and are playing a bit better than last year. I'd say they've played three good halves of Rugby out of four to this point, after two games and four halves of rugby last year, they'd played well in one half when Ireland struggled with the altitude at Ellis Park.
 
Mitchell Nicholas said:
First off, good to have some internet finally. Fair play to Scotland, they deserved to beat Australia on Saturday. They were better in the first half and in the second half, they did well to withstand whatever the Wallabies threw at them. Can't exonerate the Wallabies for how poor they were: ill discipline, silly mistakes, and not taking opportunities proved costly again. It was a massive issue last year, and it looks like the same thing will happen this year unless something changes.

The Lions better performances have coincided with my internet outage! In all seriousness, in their most recent warm up games, they've shown they can win by producing a truly dominant performance up front, while on Tuesday they were expansive and got good reward for it. Their scrum was dominant and maybe importantly, dominant in the eyes of Jaco Peyper and Jerome Garces who take charge of the first two tests. While the Lions have impressed in their last two warm up games, i think the All Blacks will shade the first test by 7-10 points.

Last year, when discussing Rugby, i was highly critical of the Springboks and Allister Coetzee. Their coach could easily have been sacked after the All Blacks beat the 57-15 in Durban, then really should have been sacked after Italy beat them. No performance clause for his first year plus political pressure may have saved there. In fairness, they've been pretty solid against the French. They haven't really looked like losing either test and are playing a bit better than last year. I'd say they've played three good halves of Rugby out of four to this point, after two games and four halves of rugby last year, they'd played well in one half when Ireland struggled with the altitude at Ellis Park.
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Good to have you back.
You are probably right on the AB's shading it but there is a chance the Lions can win this. they arent as bad as our media seem intent on tying to paint them. They are playing a style of rugby that suits them and they have had a series of tough games leading up to this, the AB's have just had 1 easy run against Samoa ( no offence to Samoa). If the Lions were to win it I wouldnt be surprised and in all honesty would make the rest of the tour that bit more interesting.
 
Stack said:
Good to have you back.
You are probably right on the AB's shading it but there is a chance the Lions can win this. they arent as bad as our media seem intent on tying to paint them. They are playing a style of rugby that suits them and they have had a series of tough games leading up to this, the AB's have just had 1 easy run against Samoa ( no offence to Samoa). If the Lions were to win it I wouldnt be surprised and in all honesty would make the rest of the tour that bit more interesting.
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I just can't pick against the All Blacks at Eden Park. Did it twice and got it woefully wrong on both occasions. In 2010, South Africa went to Eden Park having beaten the New Zealand three times in 2009 and NZ wiped the floor with them beating them 32-12 or something. Then i was very confident Australia would beat New Zealand in the 2011 RWC Semi Final and that game was over very quickly. Got a feeling the Lions will win the 2nd test though if they can get the game on their terms for long enough.
 
diarm said:
Ah, fair enough yeah. The settled team will always have the advantage over the Lions but I think a side with a truly great backrow will always give this England side problems.
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I would agree if the Lions were a national team that trained regularly though, they should theoretically be better than any other Northern hemisphere team (given it is the best of the best from all major rugger nations bar France)
 
I'm still extremely surprised that Rieko Ioane has been picked in favour of Julian Savea. Can't agree with it either but the All Blacks selectors know more than me.
 
Ex Wallaby Jeremy Paul just gave the Lions absolutely no chance of beating the All Blacks. I expect the All Blacks to win narrowly but to say the Liosn have absolutely no chance is ludicrously ignorant and sycophantic. He's put forward as an expert but I doubt he's watched the last few warm up games.
 
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