Roulette Draft - SF: 2mufc0 vs Tuppet

Who will win this match?

  • Total voters
    31
  • Poll closed .
On Zidane it seem weird to suggest that he was a lazy AMC like Riquelme. Zidane was a fairly had working attacking midfielder who even played in a 2 man midfield. As for him facing Monti at his peak Zidane could destroy any Defensive midfielder.

Take for example his one of the first big games when he arrive in Italy against Sacchi's Milan. Zidane was directly against Desailly but helped his team to hand over Sacchi's worst ever defeat 6-1. Even more amazing was the fact that Juve did not have the likes of Del Piero, Conte, Deschamps, and Montero in the match.



One interesting thing that you can see from above videos is somewhat underrated work ethic of Zidane.

Here's the report from La Stamp on the match

wbVnCP9.jpg


La Stampa's rating claimed that Zidane "made Desailly suffer". Zidane's individual rating claimed that his performance "transcended the goal he scored".

I Believe Monti is not going to have much success in stopping Zidane from running the game and with an extremely lethal finisher in Luigi Riva up front I think we would outscore the opposition.
 
2mufc0 said:
I think that's factually incorrect, i couldn't find much on Maspoli apart for his WC exploits.

Here's VDS trophies, accolades & records, i think it's highly unlikely Maspoli won anything as close. Happy to be proven wrong if you have a source.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edwin_van_der_Sar#Honours_and_awards
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Anything as close ? How about a friggin world cup ? If you are going by those awards, Victor Valdes would be the best goalkeeper in the world.
 
Tuppet said:
Anything as close ? How about a friggin world cup ?
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Your post was about quantity, how many continental cups and league titles did he win? I think VDS is far ahead in this regard (it's not even close).

And if your basing it solely on his world cup win, there were even bigger underdog winners in 1954 but nobody claims that Toni Turek is one of the GOATS and i've never seen him picked in drafts. There are countless other keepers that have won WC cups but don't get rated solely on them.

You also talk about underdog performances but that young Ajax side winning the European cup was a great achievement too and not mention saving a penalty to win the European cup.
 
I'm going to be off for a while now @Tuppet , feel free to post.
 
2mufc0 said:
Your post was about quantity, how many continental cups and league titles did he win? I think VDS is far ahead in this regard (it's not even close).

And if your basing it solely on his world cup win, there were even bigger underdog winners in 1954 but nobody claims that Toni Turek is one of the GOATS and i've never seen him picked in drafts. There are countless other keepers that have won WC cups but don't get rated solely on them.

You also talk about underdog performances but that young Ajax side winning the European cup was a great achievement too and not mention saving a penalty to win the European cup.
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No it was not about quantity at all. There is no way that Maspoli could have more quantity as he was playing in an era of much less football. There was no Copa Libertadoros at that time so Continental football. As for league he won 6 league titles. I don't see what he could have done better. He was also ranked from impartial voting panels as the 6th greatest GK to come from SA. These are enough achievements, considering you yourself have Monti whose reputation is based on a world cup.
 
Tuppet said:
On Zidane it seem weird to suggest that he was a lazy AMC like Riquelme. Zidane was a fairly had working attacking midfielder who even played in a 2 man midfield.
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Good find on Zidane there but I'm intrigued when did he play in a midfield two?
 
Physiocrat said:
Good find on Zidane there but I'm intrigued when did he play in a midfield two?
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I've been looking into this too and it doesn't look like the default setup at Madrid with him in a 2 man midfield I guess he was used there against the weaker la liga teams at home.

If you want the world cup and cl winning Zidane you play him in AM and have runners like Deschamps and Makelele behind him and around him , that's the system which has worked best in international and club level. He's never had the work rate to play in a 2 man mid at the highest level.
 
Tuppet said:
I think in Real Madrid, in they were playing sort of 4-4-2 with Makelele and Zidane in middle and Solari and Figo as wingers.
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Of course Madrid would have been the most likely with their penchant for not defending. Zidane could well have played in a two man midfield if he's come to Utd which is what I think Cantona recommended to SAF in the mid/late 90s.
 
2mufc0 said:
I've been looking into this too and it doesn't look like the default setup at Madrid with him in a 2 man midfield I guess he was used there against the weaker la liga teams at home.

If you want the world cup and cl winning Zidane you play him in AM and have runners like Deschamps and Makelele behind him and around him , that's the system which has worked best in international and club level. He's never had the work rate to play in a 2 man mid at the highest level.
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The good thing with a player like Zidane is that you don't have to really conjecture, he is so well documented that you can just watch highlights and decide for yourself whether he has work rate or not.

Here is an example, his very first big game in Serie A against Inter Milan in 1996-97 season. A little history behind the game -

Juventus' first major match of the season in Serie A, against Inter Milan. In the match preview, the two French fantasisti -- Zidane & Djorkaeff -- could not be any different. Djorkaeff was Inter's new signing and was in great form. At this point it wasn't established who is better player out of those. Djorkaeff was also very talkative to the press. Zidane, Juve's new signing, was in rather poor form. Deschamps instructed him to stay away from the press, to "shut up and focus on the game".

Before the game A newspaper published quick comparison between Djorkaeff and Zidane:
38f901648f7ea2e4ac992d59e3e1877b.png


Character, technique, vision, goal-scoring, endurance, personality are the attributes that the two players were graded on. Djorkaeff wins, surprisingly. It must be emphasized that this was a big match. There has never been any love lost between Juventus and Inter. At the time of the match, Inter were undefeated in Serie A.

1996-97 Serie A [Round 6]
20 October, 1996
Juventus 2-0 Inter Milan
Stadio delle Alpi: 28,065 spectators
Referee: Braschi

This was the game where Zidane started building his big game player reputation.

Juventus won the game convincingly. The match was described as a "one-sided encounter", obviously in favor of Juve. A great performance from all Juve players, with [you guessed it] Zidane being the standout player. Weeks of bad form and media criticism, with people thinking Djorkaeff was better than him -- what does he do? Silences the doubters.

Juve hit the post twice in this match, bringing the total to 11 strikes against woodwork in 6 matches! Truly a mind-boggling statistic. Zidane scored in the match, his first official goal for Juventus. He dedicated the goal to friends and family. Zidane said that this was his best performance yet for Juve, and that it was a beautiful moment. Lippi, again, has nothing but praise for Zidane, as he says "the only thing missing was goal-scoring, to enhance his skill-set. I never had any doubts about his quality".

Here's the full game and you can see for yourself how Zidane position himself and his work ethic, but most importantly his playmaking, his dribbling, its just beautiful -



If you don't want to watch the whole thing, Here are some individual highlights from Zidane:
- Great dribbling, creates a good chance for Boksic that was wasted
- Amazing play to create a clear chance for Boksic that was wasted
- Superb left-footed goal from outside the box
 
Some brilliant stuff on Zidane, Tuppet, and about time he's treated as a GOAT in his position and not as an absolute joke.
 
Went for Tuppet but your team is fantastic as well @2mufc0
Monti looks off to me, but that's about it.
 
Tuppet said:
The good thing with a player like Zidane is that you don't have to really conjecture, he is so well documented that you can just watch highlights and decide for yourself whether he has work rate or not.

Here is an example, his very first big game in Serie A against Inter Milan in 1996-97 season. A little history behind the game -

Juventus' first major match of the season in Serie A, against Inter Milan. In the match preview, the two French fantasisti -- Zidane & Djorkaeff -- could not be any different. Djorkaeff was Inter's new signing and was in great form. At this point it wasn't established who is better player out of those. Djorkaeff was also very talkative to the press. Zidane, Juve's new signing, was in rather poor form. Deschamps instructed him to stay away from the press, to "shut up and focus on the game".

Before the game A newspaper published quick comparison between Djorkaeff and Zidane:
38f901648f7ea2e4ac992d59e3e1877b.png


Character, technique, vision, goal-scoring, endurance, personality are the attributes that the two players were graded on. Djorkaeff wins, surprisingly. It must be emphasized that this was a big match. There has never been any love lost between Juventus and Inter. At the time of the match, Inter were undefeated in Serie A.

1996-97 Serie A [Round 6]
20 October, 1996
Juventus 2-0 Inter Milan
Stadio delle Alpi: 28,065 spectators
Referee: Braschi

This was the game where Zidane started building his big game player reputation.

Juventus won the game convincingly. The match was described as a "one-sided encounter", obviously in favor of Juve. A great performance from all Juve players, with [you guessed it] Zidane being the standout player. Weeks of bad form and media criticism, with people thinking Djorkaeff was better than him -- what does he do? Silences the doubters.

Juve hit the post twice in this match, bringing the total to 11 strikes against woodwork in 6 matches! Truly a mind-boggling statistic. Zidane scored in the match, his first official goal for Juventus. He dedicated the goal to friends and family. Zidane said that this was his best performance yet for Juve, and that it was a beautiful moment. Lippi, again, has nothing but praise for Zidane, as he says "the only thing missing was goal-scoring, to enhance his skill-set. I never had any doubts about his quality".

Here's the full game and you can see for yourself how Zidane position himself and his work ethic, but most importantly his playmaking, his dribbling, its just beautiful -



If you don't want to watch the whole thing, Here are some individual highlights from Zidane:
- Great dribbling, creates a good chance for Boksic that was wasted
- Amazing play to create a clear chance for Boksic that was wasted
- Superb left-footed goal from outside the box
Click to expand...

Great video he was a lovely player, I remember having him in the Serie A draft and watched a lot of him then and made me love his Juve version the best.

But wrt the point you are making, I don't see much defensive work from him in that video most of the time he's in the opposition half where you expect him to be.
 
Physiocrat said:
Of course Madrid would have been the most likely with their penchant for not defending. Zidane could well have played in a two man midfield if he's come to Utd which is what I think Cantona recommended to SAF in the mid/late 90s.
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He also occasionally played in midfield two at Juventus especially at beginning, although he didn't enjoyed it as much. His fate was mostly turned with Del Piero's injury against crucial game vs Inter where he finally got to play as a trequartista.

2351c86207210d0536b872dffb991759.png
 
2mufc0 said:
Great video he was a lovely player, I remember having him in the Serie A draft and watched a lot of him then and made me love his Juve version the best.

But wrt the point you are making, I don't see much defensive work from him in that video most of the time he's in the opposition half where you expect him to be.
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Yeah I didn't mean that he'll be outright defending but you can see his work rate, Zidane actually covered plenty of ground in both Juventus and early years in Real Madrid, with France he was however given more freedom. The point I was making that he wasn't lazy or anything, dropped fairly deep and does his part in work rates. After all he does have Keane & Robson behind him here.
 
Tuppet said:
I think in Real Madrid, in they were playing sort of 4-4-2 with Makelele and Zidane in middle and Solari and Figo as wingers.
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Nah. That wasn’t a two in any conventional sense. Solari and Figo both tucked in to form a slanted diamond like most fours of the modern era. And it was pretty dysfunctional at times with Makelele usually doing 90% of the heavy lifting.

On the game itself, two shit-hot teams. I’m drawn to two routes to goal. On one side Zidane gaining enough of a foothold to thread in one of the front three. On the other McGrath tracking Bergkamp leaving Blanc and Bossis isolated against the onrushing Gullit and Robben.

Tough one to separate and some good debate.
 
Gio said:
Nah. That wasn’t a two in any conventional sense. Solari and Figo both tucked in to form a slanted diamond like most fours of the modern era. And it was pretty dysfunctional at times with Makelele usually doing 90% of the heavy lifting.
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That makes sense, I'll take back my comment on him playing in midfield 2. Don't know why I remember it that way.
Gio said:
On the other McGrath tracking Bergkamp leaving Blanc and Bossis isolated against the onrushing Gullit and Robben.
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Would like to mention that we still have Keane who as defensive midfielder would mostly track Gullit but yeah I see the point there. I would also mention that for all the awesomeness of Gullit (and he was amazing) relying on him as the main goalscoring outlet is sort of underwhelming. At his peak his goalscoring is not really anything to write home about (38 goals in 125 games in Milan).
 
Another player I would like to do a quick right up about before I go to to bed is Jairzinho. Sadly he didn't really ever faced Nilton Santos as they played for same club and country teams otherwise we might had a better idea of how that duel would go. Still Jairzinho would at least have given Santos some trouble given that Jair was a great dribbler. I am not sure about others but I always felt that Jairzinho was a bit like a striker playing as a wide forward who mostly affect the game with his off the ball runs and finishing. However watching more of 70s WC games focusing on him and his other clips, its actually did not turn out to be true at all. Jairzinho obviously had great physical gifts with his speed and athleticism and that has taken away the fact that like most Brazilian players he was really really good with the ball on his feet.

First a quick stat - Jairzinho was Brazil's most consistent and successful dribbler in 1970 world cup. In a team filled with to brink with technical players where Defensive midfielders like to beat people for fun, and with teammates like Rivelino & Pele, Jairzinho was their most consistent threat. Infact in the history of world cup only one player has completed more dribbles than him in a single world cup and that dude is Maradona.

Code: 
 Top 10 most successful dribbles in a single world cup since 1966 -
53 Maradona 86
47 Jairzinho 70
46 Messi 14
43 Kempes 78
35 Eusebio 66
34 Messi 10
34 Donadoni 94
34 Cruyff 74
34 Robben 14
31 Gascoigne 90

And ofcourse we all know that he scored in every game, so it wasn't really empty showboating.

Then checkout this wonderful goal, weaving through the defenders to score a beauty -


His finishing was stone cold -


Pace & physicality -


Like any winger he could deliver a great cross and could hug the touchline. He was hardly the type of forward who has to cut inside at every opportunity. At Botafogo he was being groomed as Garrincha's successor and he did try to emulate him, although he was obviously a different type of player.

While he was not Garrincha, he was not very far from him either. In any country other than Brazil, Jairzinho would be a venerated legend. His six goals in six games in 1970 would have caused some fantastic articles to be penned. But playing for what is often considered the finest team in the tournament’s history actually diminishes Jairzinho’s standing. He competes for the limelight with fabled teammates like Pele, Gerson, Rivelino, Carlos Alberto and Tostao, even if none of them matched his scoring feats.  

“When people talk about the greatest forwards in history, they never remember him,” Tostao, the centre-forward who was Jairzinho’s teammate at the 1966 and 1970 World Cups, tells ESPN FC. “It seems that he was only a forward that had his moment under the sun just during the 1970 World Cup, but he was much more than that.

“Jairzinho was a bit like Neymar, playing from the side to the centre and striking with precision. He had speed, strength and a lot of skill. When we played him a long ball, he was spectacular. He bumped, gained his space with his body, and still managed to shoot with skill.” 

His six goals in Mexico were delivered through a wide range of finishes, from the delicate chip in the 2-1 win against Romania that followed a surging run past three defenders, to a power drive that beat England goalkeeper Gordon Banks -- something Pele had failed to do with a header earlier.

Very interestingly he and the whole 1974 Brazil side is blamed for world cup 74 performance, but was it really bad ? They reached semi final and got beaten by an iconic Dutch 74 team that would have given the golden Brazil 70s team a run for their money.

Outside of the national team he carved out a pretty good career for himself. He won the Copa Libertadoros for Cruziero in 74 in a very strong era for south america, with the likes of Figueroa, Pele, Tostao, Chumpitaz, Cubillas, Rivellion, Zico playing in various different south american teams. He won multiple leagues and cup titles and finished with a very impressive career.

Overall A technically brilliant, physical specimen who had great work ethic, who can dribble, cross and finish. Who never had any problems co existing with any other superstars in the team and is someone who can play the support role to the perfection. There are not too many forwards like Jairzinho and he should be rated as one of the very best.
 
Alright, unlocking — carry on. :)
 
MJJ said:
What happened?
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I'm not at liberty to divulge all the minor investigative details in public forum — but simply put, @Tuppet got too greedy and left too big of a trail with his secondary-accounts. Incredible how he managed to keep the charade going for so long, the lad was practically ¼th of the entire Redcafe draft community if you include Newbie drafts! The middle boggles... :eek:
 
Invictus said:
I'm not at liberty to divulge all the minor investigative details in public forum — but simply put, @Tuppet got too greedy and left too big of a trail with his secondary-accounts. Incredible how he managed to keep the charade going for so long, the lad was practically ¼th of the entire Redcafe draft community if you include Newbie drafts! The middle boggles... :eek:
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:lol: it's amazing the amount of effort some put into winning these things for internet glory.

That's amazing.
 
MJJ said:
:lol: it's amazing the amount of effort some put into winning these things for internet glory.

That's amazing.
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He even played impossible draft as Tuppet and Charly. In a way you have to admire such a level of commitment. :lol:
 
This is really tight. I'm thinking it would be a draw at the moment. I can see both teams scoring. Zidane will have a good game but so will van Hanagem and Stoichkov and Robben.
 
Physiocrat said:
This is really tight. I'm thinking it would be a draw at the moment. I can see both teams scoring. Zidane will have a good game but so will van Hanagem and Stoichkov and Robben.
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Unfortunately like Zidane previous team juventus, this one got banned for match fixing too.
 
Jim Beam said:
He even played impossible draft as Tuppet and Charly. In a way you have to admire such a level of commitment. :lol:
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I see your impossible draft and raise you the 5th sheep draft :lol:

1. Edgar Allan Pillow
2. Pat_Mustard
3. 2mufc0
4. mazhar13
5. Gio
6. Enigma
7. Indnyc/crappy
8. Skizzo
9. idmanager
10. Invictus/Ecstatic
11. harms
12. oneniltothearsenal/shrike
13. P-Nut0712
14. Tuppet
15. Lord SInister/Charly
16. prath92/KM
 
Here's Charly and Shrike screwing Onenil and Lord Sinister :lol:

ROUND THREE, TURN ONE: RESULTS

1. Edgar Allan Pillow - FAIL (Marco van Basten)
2. Pat_Mustard - van Hanegem PASS
3. 2mufc0 - Eusebio PASS
4. mazhar13 - Edwards PASS
5. Gio - FAIL (Elias Figueroa)
6. Enigma - FAIL (Marco van Basten)
7. Indnyc/crappy - FAIL (Marco van Basten)
8. Skizzo - Johnstone PASS
9. idmanager - Dzajic PASS
10. Invictus/Ecstatic - FAIL (Elias Figueroa)
11. harms - FAIL (Marco van Basten)
12. oneniltothearsenal/shrike - FAIL (Elias Figueroa)
13. P-Nut0712 - Nilton Santos PASS
14. Tuppet - FAIL (Marco van Basten)
15. Lord SInister/Charly - FAIL (Elias Figueroa)
16. prath92/KM - Banks PASS

ROUND FOUR, TURN ONE: RESULTS

1. Edgar Allan Pillow - FAIL (Marcel Desailly, Didier Deschamps)
2. Pat_Mustard - FAIL (Romario, Adoni Zubizarreta)
3. 2mufc0 - FAIL (Romario, Adoni Zubizarreta)
4. mazhar13 - PASS (Sandor Kocsis, Zoltan Czibor)
5. Gio - FAIL (Romario, Ronald Koeman)
6. Enigma - FAIL (Rivaldo)
7. Indnyc/crappy - FAIL (Lothar Matthaus, Andreas Brehme)
8. Skizzo - FAIL (Lothar Matthaus, Andreas Brehme)
9. idmanager - PASS (Fernando Redondo, Clarence Seedorf)
10. Invictus/Ecstatic - FAIL (Rivaldo)
11. harms - FAIL (Marcel Desailly)
12. oneniltothearsenal/shrike - FAIL (Romario, Ronald Koeman)
13. P-Nut0712 - FAIL (Marcel Desailly, Didier Deschamps)
14. Tuppet - FAIL (Lothar Matthaus, Andreas Brehme)
15. Lord SInister/Charly - FAIL (Romario, Ronald Koeman)
16. prath92/KM - PASS (Denis Irwin, Paul Ince)


ROUND FOUR, TURN TWO: RESULTS

1. Edgar Allan Pillow - FAIL (Alessandro Nesta, Jaap Stam)
2. Pat_Mustard - PASS (Matthias Sammer, Ruben Sosa)
3. 2mufc0 - PASS (Gianluigi Buffon, Fabio Cannavaro)
5. Gio - PASS (Hristo Stoichkov and Fernando Couto)
6. Enigma - PASS (Philip Lahm and Mario Gómez)
7. Indnyc/crappy - FAIL (Liam Brady, Marco Tardelli)
8. Skizzo - PASS (Neymar, Dani Alves)
10. Invictus/Ecstatic - PASS (Ronaldinho, Gianluca Zambrotta)
11. harms - PASS (Branko Zebec, Vladimir Beara)
12. oneniltothearsenal/shrike - FAIL (Liam Brady, Marco Tardelli)
13. P-Nut0712 - FAIL (Alessandro Nesta, Jaap Stam)
14. Tuppet - FAIL (blocked teammate) (Rivaldo)
15. Lord SInister/Charly - FAIL (Liam Brady, Marco Tardelli)


I can go on, but you get the drift :lol::lol::lol:
 
Jim Beam said:
:lol: The way it was going, it would end up as Tuppet against 2 or 3 others (with Tuppet as their AM).
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He had played one newbie draft final all by himself. It was decided by penalties :lol:
 
harms said:
He had played one newbie draft final all by himself. It was decided by penalties :lol:
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:lol: That is the weirdest thing I have read on here in a long time.

Manipulating votes? Fecking over other managers in the sheep draft? Rolling the dice for yourself? You can at least see the misguided rationale behind it, by wanting to win way too much.

But playing against yourself in a newbie draft? I mean come on:lol:
 
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