Roulette Draft - SF: 2mufc0 vs Tuppet

[Indnyc]

2mufc0 vs. Tuppet

Vs.

Tactics 2mufc0

Formation 4-3-3

I have built the team based on the Dutch totaalvoetbal philosophy from the beginning. Would like to clarify that I am not trying to replicate a specific team in the past, however I have tried to stay true to the spirit of the theme by picking technically good players who are able to interchange, were hard workers for the most part, and comfortable on the ball...both vertically and horizontally. To add, the starting 11 consists of 6 Dutch players who have vast amount of experience in the principles of the team, and even the non-Dutchies were either lauded for their overall skill-set or had experience in Dutch inspired setups (like Stoichkov at Barcelona).

With regards to reinforcements I welcome the top left back available in the pool now that Maldini is blocked and Facchetti unavailable - The Encyclopedia, Nilton Santos. This also allows me to bolster the central areas with Krol shuffling over and reprising his Ballon D'Or 3rd sweeper role in the heart of defense.

Defence

Starting at the back Van der Saar commands the box an excellent goalkeeper as well as being great on the ball, his distribution is up there with the best. At the centre of the defence Krol comes in as the ball playing centre back, his interceptions and passing will be instrumental in building from the back and launching quick counters. Campbell partners him as the athletic and robust stopper able to cover for him - ideal blend of ice and fire, and Sol's uncompromising skill-set will be helpful against the physicality of Riva and his proficiency in the air - allowing Krol to mop the floor.

Nilton comes in at left back and Carlos Alberto takes up the opposite full back position, both are able to play-make from the wings and provide support for the wingers. Both are also watertight defensively, providing the cover required when defending. As a testament to their greatness, they were elected to the World Team of the 20th Century, which is probably the highest honour out there:

Midfield

At the base of the midfield is Argentinian/Italian maestro Luis Monti, not only a great DM and marker, but also a perceptive passer of the ball to more advanced players - here he's tasked with putting the brakes on Zidane, a tough job but doable, especially considering Zizou wasn't the fastest athlete and Monti's profile as a disruptor. To the left of him is van Hanegem the consummate Dutch box-to-box play-maker in the midfield looking to pick up the ball and play the attackers through. To add, he was also a battler and will engage in individual duels off-the-ball as required. Gullit is the third midfielder and has the most license to attack, picking the ball up from deep positions he will cause havoc running at the opposition defence and making those off the ball runs into the box. I think overall the midfield is well structured with each playe knowing his specific tasks, and being proven at a great level in said tasks - while also being proficient in multiple phases as an all-rounder.

Attack

Bergkamp is the central play making striker in the team, with his intelligent movement he will drag the opposition defenders around creating gaps for the other attackers to exploit, he will also be in and around the box getting in positions to score.

Stoichkov comes in on the left flank, a player who is well versed in the totaalvoetbal philosophy, he provides that extra goal threat that Keizer lacked while also offering a great deal of creativity as a darting wide attacker.

On the right wing is Robben who provides direct dribbling threat and will love to interchange with Bergkamp alongwith Gullit and Stoichkov. Worth special mention are passes from deep by Krol, Monti, Nílton, Van Hanegem - allowing the attackers to use the collective pace and evasiveness around Bergkamp to get behind the opposition defence. Additionally, Bergkamp's ability to latch onto long balls and create magic like he did vs Argentina in the 98 world cup will come in handy in claustrophobic situations.

Thoughts on the game

In my opinion both teams are fairly strong at this stage of the tournament as expected and it could very well come down to specifics or minor organisational details.

• I have arguably the best DM in the pool (in the absence of Rijkaard, Desailly and Varela) to patrol the areas where Zidane will operate - which should slow him down considerably in theory. On the other hand, Gullit might be afforded more freedom as both Robson and Keane liked to get forward as box-to-box players (for reference Butt was used alongside the latter in big European matches). That might allow Gullit to exploit positional lapses to greater degree. And if extra attention is paid to Gullit the opposition might not be able to extract the best out of Robson and Keane (who also have to support Zidane).
• I feel that my team boasts a great collective defensive ethos, especially in attack: Stoichkov is proven to be a more collective-based player than Dzajić given his exploits in a team-oriented approach at Barcelona, Robben's peak at Bayern had him tracking back to support Lahm under Heynckes, and to top it off Gullit was much more robust and dedicated than Zidane off-the-ball, which should theoratically translate into less pressure on my central midfield and defense, as well as the fullback areas.
• Van der Sar was a superior keeper to Maspoli (should count for something or at least negate whatever spin is put on Campbell).
• Clear ideology and consequently team chemistry with a bunch of players who are great fits for a totaalvoetbal system, which will likely create a more cohesive structure. 7 of the 11 players were mentioned individually in the Build around Cruyff thread, which is like the ultimate totaalvoetbal test (Stoichkov, Gullit, Van Hanegem, Krol, C. Alberto, N. Santos and Van der Sar): https://www.redcafe.net/threads/all-time-best-team-built-around-johan-cruyff.441084/. And as further proof for commitment to the ideology, subs like Koeman and Jansen are mentioned too.

Tactics Team Tuppet

Tactic Explanation

2mufc0 has created more or less a perfect 4-3-3 based on false 9 and I don't think I can fault player quality he has on show. So it got me thinking what would be the best way to stop a false 9 formation. I think one of the big problem playing against a good false 9 formation is the imbalance the striker creates by retreating in the midfield, leaving no one to mark in defense while overloading the midfield.

To counter it we could either
1- play a double pivot with a deep line, the 2 DMs along with 2 CB squeeze the space for the false 9 to operate and leaves team with no presence up front. Its a fairly negative tactic but quite successful.
2 - Allow one of the CB to follow the False 9 in the midfield. For this to work you need a CB who is an excellent marker while being good enough with the ball to play in midfield and start a few attacks. I settled on this approach as Mcgrath is almost exactly the defender that I want for this to work. The fact that he was played in DM position many times for his country is a bonus.

How is this going to work in midfield -
Mcgrath is man marking Bergkamp in this game. He would pick him up whenever he crosses the half way line and try to dampen his impact as much as possible. Mcgrath has done some stellar marking jobs, his performance against Baggio with Ireland is stuff of legends. His best performance in United shirt probably come in FA cup 1985 win. The relatively inexperienced McGrath had the unenviable prospect of marking former Young player and player of the year Andy Gray. McGrath ended up with the man of the match award, after his heroics in defense once Kevin Moran was sent off. United went on to win the game 1-0 thanks to Norman Whiteside's injury time winner.
Keane as LCM is responsible for tracking Gullit (RCM) while Robson is the all purpose, all action link up man, helping Keane & Mcgrath when defending, moving the ball forward when attacking.

Defense -
In defense since there is no consistent presence of a reference striker, Blanc acts as a free sweeper. He would be sweeping the loose balls behind my midfield. But probably most importantly his passing from deep is going to be a critical factor in my attack. Blanc was a quite brilliant and ambitious passer and he would be given freedom to ping some long balls onto Dzajic/Zidane/Jairzinho quite often. The fact that he was imperious in air and a formidable defender are some very nice bonus to have.

Bossis & Djalama Santos are two of the greatest defensive minded fullbacks in football. And are quite at home facing two wide forwards who almost always cut in. Djalma has played almost this exact role in 1958 world cup final, while Bossis is comfortable playing anywhere on the defensive line. They are both very fast defender and capable of keeping pace with the two forwards in case an incisive Bergkamp ball comes from midfield.

Attack -
My attack is pretty straightforward. In Dzajic & Jairzinho I believe I have the best wing combination of the draft.They compliment each other quite perfectly, with Dzajic's creativity & dribbling and Jairzinho's runs toward goal and finishing. While attacking my wingers would either receive ball from a long deep pass (from either Blanc or Mcgrath) and try to take on the opposing fullbacks or if the attack has more of a buildup with Keane - Robson - Zidane, they would provide runs behind the opposing defense for a defense splitting pass from Zidane.

Most important part of my attack is IMO the best player in the draft Zidane. He is the primary playmaker of the team and would look to constantly feed the front three with his exceptional passing. He is likely to face a marking job himself from Monti, but I would conjecture that peak Zidane is unlikely to be stopped by him. Monti's famous marking job came against Sindelaar in world cup 1934. Sindelaar was a stylish dribbler like Zidane but thats where similarities end. While the paper man was startlingly slight Zidane was a physical player who is very unlikely to be intimidated by physicality of Monti. The game is also being played in modern setting and its unlikely his antics would go unpunished.

Riva is the purest goal scorer on the pitch and one I believe could be the difference maker. While there are many players in 2mufc0's team that can come up with a goal when needed, none of them have the pure goalscoring prowess of Riva who was 3 time top scorer of a catenaccio driven Serie A. Riva was very fast (started as left winger and played there many times) and strong in the air with a fabulous link up game.

Overall Its really tight, but I think I have advantage in -
1. Bergkamp is very important part of 2mufc0's attack as I believe he is the main source of creativity in his team. Mcgrath is perfect to take him out of the game and starve the team with a major source of goals.
2. Midfield - Kean - Robson has extra bit of movement, work ethic and aggression.
3. Zidane - Best player on the pitch IMO and one who would make a difference in the game.
4. Luigi Riva - The best goal scorer on the pitch. A complete forward who would provide a constant presence in the opposition penalty area pinning the defense back and creating space for Dzajic / Jairzinho / Zidane.

 

[Indnyc]

@2mufc0 @Tuppet good luck

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Ooh, a tough call. Good matchup!

 

[2mufc0]

Good luck @Tuppet .

Interesting tactic with McGrath on Bergkamp, but personally i think man marking is suicide against total football. When a player man marks he normally leaves space behind and total football is about players finding and running into space and passing the ball quickly to exploit spaces. Stoichkov and Gullit will enjoy making runs into the areas McGrath will be vacating.

Also Bergkamp is interchangeable with the others in the front line, so will be dragging McGrath all over the pitch.

Also i don't see Keane and Robson dropping into the CB position to help out ( have they ever done this role?).

 

[Tuppet]

Good luck @Tuppet .

Interesting tactic with McGrath on Bergkamp, but personally i think man marking is suicide against total football. When a player man marks he normally leaves space behind and total football is about players finding and running into space and passing the ball quickly to exploit spaces. Stoichkov and Gullit will enjoy making runs into the areas McGrath will be vacating.

Also Bergkamp is interchangeable with the others in the front line, so will be dragging McGrath all over the pitch.

Also i don't see Keane and Robson dropping into the CB position to help out ( have they ever done this role?).

Best of luck to you too mate.

A singular man marking is almost a never a suicide against any team. Even Cruyff the OG of Total football got man marked by Vogts in 74 final. I don't think Bergkamp is interchangeable with other players at all, his skill is the keys to the creativity in the final third. Also there is a clear plan to deal with other players. Stoichkov when attacking is obviously picked up by the RB in Djalma Santos and Gullit is responsibility of Keane & Robson midifield.

And ofcourse they did dropped in the same line as CB all the time. Look at any odd Keane or Robson compilation and you'll see them at the same as CBs when defending, its nothing special really, all the DMs do that. Here is an example where Keane is on the tail end of his career and mostly defending against Bergkamp, look yourself how often he is dropping deep in CB line -

 

[Tuppet]

Dragan Dzajic vs Carlos Alberto - Quickly wanted to touch on this. While Alberto is obviously a great defender, Dzajic made a career out of bamboozling great defenders be it Vogts, Camacho, Burgnich or Moore, and Alberto was no different. In an era where Brazil was playing with peak Pele and rest of his 70s entourage (Rivelino, Tostao, Gerson, Alberto) the only way lowly Yugoslavia could match them was brilliance of Dzajic.

This game ended up 3-3 between Brazil & Yugoslavia and again Dzajic shone probably the brightest, directly against Alberto as left winger he scored one and assisted one while twisting Alberto -

 

[Physiocrat]

@Tuppet I really like the setup and it makes perfect sense. One question, you state Bergkamp is the key for their creativity but have you a plan for van Hanagem?

 

[2mufc0]

Best of luck to you too mate.

A singular man marking is almost a never a suicide against any team. Even Cruyff the OG of Total football got man marked by Vogts in 74 final. I don't think Bergkamp is interchangeable with other players at all, his skill is the keys to the creativity in the final third. Also there is a clear plan to deal with other players. Stoichkov when attacking is obviously picked up by the RB in Djalma Santos and Gullit is responsibility of Keane & Robson midifield.

And ofcourse they did dropped in the same line as CB all the time. Look at any odd Keane or Robson compilation and you'll see them at the same as CBs when defending, its nothing special really, all the DMs do that. Here is an example where Keane is on the tail end of his career and mostly defending against Bergkamp, look yourself how often he is dropping deep in CB line -

Nice vid mate, just had a look and i don't see him filling in as a CB here at all , granted he's playing deep but he's in front of the two centre backs all the time - and i don't think this is the version of Keane you are playing? Also that United defensive system is not comparable to what you are doing here, so don't think its comparable. Similar to Vogts, that was a different setup too with Bonhof stepping back to fill in for him, from the RB position.

 

[2mufc0]

@Tuppet I really like the setup and it makes perfect sense. One question, you state Bergkamp is the key for their creativity but have you a plan for van Hanagem?

I'm glad you brought that up as i was about to make a separate post about it, Bergkamp is clearly not the only creative player, Monti, WVH, Gullit are all great play makers, then you have the wide forwards Stoichkov and Robben along with goal threat also provide creativity.

 

[idmanager]

No weaknesses in either team but Tuppet wins the tactical battle for me.

Blanc could have been considered a weakness against a pacy false 9 if he had skipped his marker Mcgrath, but Bergkamp seems to be well handled here.

Only thing I disagree with in Tuppet's write up is that Djalma was not very fast from what I have seen.

Bossis & Djalama Santos are two of the greatest defensive minded fullbacks in football. And are quite at home facing two wide forwards who almost always cut in. Djalma has played almost this exact role in 1958 world cup final, while Bossis is comfortable playing anywhere on the defensive line. They are both very fast defender and capable of keeping pace with the two forwards in case an incisive Bergkamp ball comes from midfield.

To be fair Riva against Krol and Campbell is well handled too and 2mufc0's fullbacks are great too, but Tuppet manages to overload the midfield for me both with versatile 2 sided players.

The game should have been final.

 

[2mufc0]

Dragan Dzajic vs Carlos Alberto - Quickly wanted to touch on this. While Alberto is obviously a great defender, Dzajic made a career out of bamboozling great defenders be it Vogts, Camacho, Burgnich or Moore, and Alberto was no different. In an era where Brazil was playing with peak Pele and rest of his 70s entourage (Rivelino, Tostao, Gerson, Alberto) the only way lowly Yugoslavia could match them was brilliance of Dzajic.

This game ended up 3-3 between Brazil & Yugoslavia and again Dzajic shone probably the brightest, directly against Alberto as left winger he scored one and assisted one while twisting Alberto -

I wouldn't say that's peak Alberto, i always think it's unfair on defenders when 1 a single game or in some instances a single incident means the attacker is better. Like that R9 getting the better of Nesta clip.

If it was over several games you would probably have a point, but anecdotal evidence shouldn't be enough.

 

[2mufc0]

No weaknesses in either team but Tuppet wins the tactical battle for me.

Blanc could have been considered a weakness against a pacy false 9 if he had skipped his marker Mcgrath, but Bergkamp seems to be well handled here.

Only thing I disagree with in Tuppet's write up is that Djalma was not very fast from what I have seen.



To be fair Riva against Krol and Campbell is well handled too and 2mufc0's fullbacks are great too, but Tuppet manages to overload the midfield for me both with versatile 2 sided players.

The game should have been final.

I don't see how he will overload the midfield? Zidane won't be dropping back to defensive work like Gullit would.

And with McGrath pushing forward Stoichkov or Robben vs Blanc won't end well for him at all.

 

[Tuppet]

@Tuppet I really like the setup and it makes perfect sense. One question, you state Bergkamp is the key for their creativity but have you a plan for van Hanagem?

I'm glad you brought that up as i was about to make a separate post about it, Bergkamp is clearly not the only creative player, Monti, WVH, Gullit are all great play makers, then you have the wide forwards Stoichkov and Robben along with goal threat also provide creativity.

When I say Bergkamp is the key, I was trying to make a distinction between final third creativity and deep playmakers / goalscoring forward vs a number 10 or a false 9 providing creative impetus. In my team that role is filled by Zidane and in 2mufc0's team its Bergkamp. While Van Hanagem was a great passer in his midfield role, playing almost as a metronome he was not someone constantly beating people and playing final balls. I am basing this on his role here in midfield which is same as his role in the 74 Dutch team where almost all the creativity from the game was gone once Cruyff got stifled.

As for plan, Van Hanagem would usually be picked up by Robson who would harass him with his work rate and aggression.

 

[Tuppet]

I wouldn't say that's peak Alberto, i always think it's unfair on defenders when 1 a single game or in some instances a single incident means the attacker is better. Like that R9 getting the better of Nesta clip.

If it was over several games you would probably have a point, but anecdotal evidence shouldn't be enough.

Its not meant to be the end word on the subject. It is peak Alberto though, the clip was more to show the awesomeness of Dzajic than any particular weakness of Alberto.

 

[2mufc0]

Blanc could have been considered a weakness against a pacy false 9 if he had skipped his marker Mcgrath, but Bergkamp seems to be well handled here.

Robben getting into a central position on the counter and Ramos isn't even a slow defender, vs Blanc =carnage

 

[Physiocrat]

When I say Bergkamp is the key, I was trying to make a distinction between final third creativity and deep playmakers / goalscoring forward vs a number 10 or a false 9 providing creative impetus. In my team that role is filled by Zidane and in 2mufc0's team its Bergkamp. While Van Hanagem was a great passer in his midfield role, playing almost as a metronome he was not someone constantly beating people and playing final balls. I am basing this on his role here in midfield which is same as his role in the 74 Dutch team where almost all the creativity from the game was gone once Cruyff got stifled.

As for plan, Van Hanagem would usually be picked up by Robson who would harass him with his work rate and aggression.

Ah ok, that makes more sense

 

[Tuppet]

Robben getting into a central position on the counter and Ramos isn't even a slow defender, vs Blanc =carnage

I could have actually picked A really fast defender like Vierchowod here, but Blanc is covered by 3 fast defenders and his passing is a very valuable asset here. I am actually planning on Robben to cut inside which is why I picked Bosssi over Cabrini. Unlike the clip above in a counter my fullback is not going to be caught up field because he is not instructed to attack. Now Robben could ofcourse have an insane run and beat Bossis, beat Blanc, beat any cover there is and score and you can't really plan against an insane individual goal. But then again the same could be done by Dzajic (Who actually did it against Alberto) or Jarizinho or Riva who lest we forget is the best striker on the pitch and really the only one providing a constant threat in the opposition penalty box.

 

[2mufc0]

When I say Bergkamp is the key, I was trying to make a distinction between final third creativity and deep playmakers / goalscoring forward vs a number 10 or a false 9 providing creative impetus. In my team that role is filled by Zidane and in 2mufc0's team its Bergkamp. While Van Hanagem was a great passer in his midfield role, playing almost as a metronome he was not someone constantly beating people and playing final balls. I am basing this on his role here in midfield which is same as his role in the 74 Dutch team where almost all the creativity from the game was gone once Cruyff got stifled.

As for plan, Van Hanagem would usually be picked up by Robson who would harass him with his work rate and aggression.

While Bergkamp drops deep Gullit will step up and provide all the things Zidane does, but a bit more with his direct dribbling.

So Keane is covering for McGrath when he's following Bergkamp around and Robson on WVH that leaves Gullit as the free man.

 

[2mufc0]

I could have actually picked A really fast defender like Vierchowod here, but Blanc is covered by 3 fast defenders and his passing is a very valuable asset here. I am actually planning on Robben to cut inside which is why I picked Bosssi over Cabrini. Unlike the clip above in a counter my fullback is not going to be caught up field because he is not instructed to attack. Now Robben could ofcourse have an insane run and beat Bossis, beat Blanc, beat any cover there is and score and you can't really plan against an insane individual goal. But then again the same could be done by Dzajic (Who actually did it against Alberto) or Jarizinho or Riva who lest we forget is the best striker on the pitch and really the only one providing a constant threat in the opposition penalty box.

If your full backs are not attacking that makes my teams job of dealing of 2 of your biggest threats much easier and also I would agree with ID that Djalma wasn't that fast, not faster than Stoichkov anyway.

 

[Tuppet]

Great debate so far @2mufc0 , I'll be out for sometime, feel free to post, I'll answer when I am back online.

Before leaving just wanted to share some stuff on Riva. Its easy to forget the legendary striker in my team in the endless parade of fanatstic players both our teams have. But Riva was brilliant, an amazingly complete forward. Here's some ways he can punish a team -

Pace -

Heading -

Long Shots -

Perfect overhead kick -

Really Riva as a peroper number 9 with the service of Zidane / Dzajic /Jairzinho could be the major difference between the two teams.

 

[Tuppet]

If your full backs are not attacking that makes my teams job of dealing of 2 of your biggest threats much easier and also I would agree with ID that Djalma wasn't that fast, not faster than Stoichkov anyway.

Yeah make of it what you will. It would make defending against my wingers easier for sure, but my fullbacks are not attacking, that would be suicidal. However I would point out that Dzajic in particular was an old school winger who never really needed an overlapping fullback.

Djalma was plenty fast, I mean he wasn't faster than Gento but fast enough. More importantly he was just the very best in defensive fullbacks. And his tactical nous against opposing wingers got him to two world cup all star teams. He wasn't faster than Skoglund but he dominated him all the same.

 

[harms]

Monti, WVH, Gullit are all great play makers

I know that there are sources that tells us that he was not just a brute and he could also make a pass, but surely it's not enough to put him in the same sentence as van Hanegem (or name him a playmaker for that matter).

 

[harms]

I wouldn't say that's peak Alberto, i always think it's unfair on defenders when 1 a single game or in some instances a single incident means the attacker is better. Like that R9 getting the better of Nesta clip.

If it was over several games you would probably have a point, but anecdotal evidence shouldn't be enough.

Dzajic's whole career (mostly international for obvious reasons) was filled with exceptional performances against top defenders — including this one against Carlos Alberto. I'd say that the burden of proof is on you, why do you think that he'll be able to stop him this time? I'd get it if it would've been a one off like Brian Laudrup against Maldini (a bit harsh on Laudrup, but I needed an example of a winger that didn't always dominate top opposition).

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

I'd have swapped Keane to face van hanegem, and Robson has more attacking opportunities.

I see Gullit being the difference maker in this game through.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

I think the man marking on Bergkamp from a CB plays into the total football tactic's advantage. Its quite a bit different from 1974 final when you had a RB man marking Cruiff who liked to drift left. That still left two, Swarz-Kaiser, in the center with Bonhof in front. That's a lot more balanced than man marking Bergs with a CB which is inevitably going to leave Blanc alone. Also I think the front line of Stoichkov and Robben is more deadly than Rensenbrink-Rep. And Gullit is a unique player who presents a unique challenge trying to deal with him. I just see the CB man marking leaving too much space for Gullit, WvH, Stoichkov and Robben to exploit.

 

[2mufc0]

Dzajic's whole career (mostly international for obvious reasons) was filled with exceptional performances against top defenders — including this one against Carlos Alberto. I'd say that the burden of proof is on you, why do you think that he'll be able to stop him this time? I'd get it if it would've been a one off like Brian Laudrup against Maldini (a bit harsh on Laudrup, but I needed an example of a winger that didn't always dominate top opposition).

Just to be clear I think he's the best winger in the draft and I won't claim it will be easy to keep him quiet,- he will have his moments, but Tuppet has already said his full backs are not attacking so I can afford to have one of my midfielders shuffle accross and double up on him. Then not to mention Alberto him self who was a great athlete and ranked as one of the finest RBs of all time, which helps in trying to limit his threat.

 

[2mufc0]

I know that there are sources that tells us that he was not just a brute and he could also make a pass, but surely it's not enough to put him in the same sentence as van Hanegem (or name him a playmaker for that matter).

I can agree he's not on the same level but offers playmaking from the deep with long balls and starting attacks.

The main point I was trying to make is that the teams playmaking isn't reliant on Bergkamp, in fact I will go as far as saying all of my players are capable of some degree of playmaking. Maybe not so much Campbell - but he was decent on the ball too.

 

[Moby]

Two excellent teams with great talent on show.

Went with Tuppet as I see him comfortably winning the midfield battle. 2mufc's midfield is great in terms of ability but for me it lacks the same amount of urgency and desire to win the game as the opposition. Keane and Robson at their absolute prime will definitely bully the opposition for most of the game, harass them into making errors and have a bit too much drive and determination in making things happen in attack, and they will do for 90 minutes with the same intensity. While 2mufc's midfield could go in and out of the game which would lead to critical game changing spells for Tuppet.

Would extend that to the two cerebrals on show. As good as Bergkamp was, Zidane was easily the better big game player and with the platform behind him, he is easily far more reliable than Bergkamp here in terms of delivering the killer blows. Bergkamp's port folio cannot match Zidane's heroics in 2000 Euro, 2006 WC and their CL runs, which are the biggest stages. Think Zidane is again being undersold a bit, he's one of the best players on the pitch and one of the greatest ever for that position, so in terms of the main creative glue for both the teams, he is obviously a far bigger threat and will swing it here 95 times out of 100.

 

[2mufc0]

Two excellent teams with great talent on show.

Went with Tuppet as I see him comfortably winning the midfield battle. 2mufc's midfield is great in terms of ability but for me it lacks the same amount of urgency and desire to win the game as the opposition. Keane and Robson at their absolute prime will definitely bully the opposition for most of the game, harass them into making errors and have a bit too much drive and determination in making things happen in attack, and they will do for 90 minutes with the same intensity. While 2mufc's midfield could go in and out of the game which would lead to critical game changing spells for Tuppet.

Would extend that to the two cerebrals on show. As good as Bergkamp was, Zidane was easily the better big game player and with the platform behind him, he is easily far more reliable than Bergkamp here in terms of delivering the killer blows. Bergkamp's port folio cannot match Zidane's heroics in 2000 Euro, 2006 WC and their CL runs, which are the biggest stages. Think Zidane is again being undersold a bit, he's one of the best players on the pitch and one of the greatest ever for that position, so in terms of the main creative glue for both the teams, he is obviously a far bigger threat and will swing it here 95 times out of 100.

Desire - not something that can be gauged tbh, every footballer goes out there with he desire to win. You make out as though Keane and Robson won every game they played, football isn't that simple. From what i read about Monti he was a big personality too and WVH was a scrapper too. Then you have Gullit, one of the most determined footballers ever.

As for the second point, Zidane should be compared with Gullit (as they are both the attacking midfielders in their respective teams, so the Bergkamp comparison is pointless.

And to be honest i would put Zidane and Gullit on a similar level but Gullit slightly edges it for me.

 

[2mufc0]

If you're currently sitting on the fence, one place where you can say i have a clear advantage is in the goalkeeping position.



Also a good read here, talks about his career and lead upto signing for United and THAT penalty save:

Van der Sar believes that, although he may not have a strong academic background or years and years of business experience on his CV, his two decades in the game give him invaluable insight into how to run a club. Particularly this club, where he played with distinction from 1990-99, lifting four Eredivisie titles, three Dutch Cups, the UEFA Cup and the Champions League, beating Milan in 1995.

https://www.fourfourtwo.com/feature...d-away-anelkas-penalty-i-felt-i-was-separated

 

[Moby]

Desire - not something that can be gauged tbh, every footballer goes out there with he desire to win. You make out as though Keane and Robson won every game they played, football isn't that simple. From what i read about Monti he was a big personality too and WVH was a scrapper too. Then you have Gullit, one of the most determined footballers ever.

As for the second point, Zidane should be compared with Gullit (as they are both the attacking midfielders in their respective teams, so the Bergkamp comparison is pointless.

And to be honest i would put Zidane and Gullit on a similar level but Gullit slightly edges it for me.

Zidane is the creative head of his team and Bergkamp is yours, based on that the discussion should be how to nullify them to break down the flow of attack. With all due respect to the Dutchman, he's far easier to contain than Zidane, especially in a big game environment and for me he will win the game here with Keane and Robson constantly providing him the platform to shine. Desire and determination can easily be gauged. Just watch Keane's display vs Juve in 1999 for example. All many of Robson's displays going in as underdogs against the like of Barca and driving his team to victory through sheer desire for every second of the game. It's literally what sets these two players apart.

As for the last line, completely different players with different roles that they played.

 

[2mufc0]

Zidane is the creative head of his team and Bergkamp is yours, based on that the discussion should be how to nullify them to break down the flow of attack. With all due respect to the Dutchman, he's far easier to contain than Zidane, especially in a big game environment and for me he will win the game here with Keane and Robson constantly providing him the platform to shine. Desire and determination can easily be gauged. Just watch Keane's display vs Juve in 1999 for example. All many of Robson's displays going in as underdogs against the like of Barca and driving his team to victory through sheer desire for every second of the game. It's literally what sets these two players apart.

As for the last line, completely different players with different roles that they played.

Yeah you're right that Tuppet will look to play through Zidane, but that's not the case in my team, the whole point of the system is to have several play makers throughout, there isn't a traditional focal point as such, but the main central playmakers in the final third will be Bergkamp and Gullit. Also Zidane is facing a dedicated DM patrolling his areas while there is no one for Gullit.

 

[Tuppet]

@2mufc0 there is really no difference in goalkeepers at all. Here is the rep sheet of my GK -

1. World cup winner against one of the most attacking Brazil team keeping the likes of Zizinho / Ademir out to silence the Maracana.
2. Six league titles with Penarol.
3. Ranked sixth greatest SA keeper of the century by IFFHS voting.
4. Reached world cup semifinal again in 1954.

So I am not really seeing the difference you are portraying between our keepers. If anything Maspoli has a more impressive resume.

 

[2mufc0]

@2mufc0 there is really no difference in goalkeepers at all. Here is the rep sheet of my GK -

1. World cup winner against one of the most attacking Brazil team keeping the likes of Zizinho / Ademir out to silence the Maracana.
2. Six league titles with Penarol.
3. Ranked sixth greatest SA keeper of the century by IFFHS voting.
4. Reached world cup semifinal again in 1954.

So I am not really seeing the difference you are portraying between our keepers. If anything Maspoli has a more impressive resume.

I would have to disagree with that, if i copy pasted VDS achievements here it would fill the screen. Edwin played successfully at several clubs in the toughest leagues and has good international tournaments. Not saying your keeper is no good but imo Edwin is better.

 

[Moby]

but the main central playmakers in the final third will be Bergkamp and Gullit.

Your tactics say otherwise:

Gullit is the third midfielder and has the most license to attack, picking the ball up from deep positions he will cause havoc running at the opposition defence and making those off the ball runs into the box.

Bergkamp is the central play making striker in the team,

Which makes complete sense as well as the false 9 is usually tasked with the playmaking duties in attack and has runners behind him, and I find your assignment completely fine and bring the best abilities of Gullit and Bergkamp. In any case, neither of those two are as good a playmaker as Zidane.

 

[2mufc0]

Your tactics say otherwise:




Which makes complete sense as well as the false 9 is usually tasked with the playmaking duties in attack and has runners behind him, and I find your assignment completely fine and bring the best abilities of Gullit and Bergkamp. In any case, neither of those two are as good a playmaker as Zidane.

Yes central playmaking striker he's not the AM like Zidane.

Guess we have to agree to disagree. Personally on his day Gullit is more devastating imo.

 

[Moby]

Personally on his day Gullit is more devastating imo.

I was talking specifically about the playmaking ability, not overall.

I don't really remember Gullit playing with another playmaker in attack, at his peak he had Marco who is a proper #9, and Gullit had a clearer role in attack as the SS or AM in terms of his attacking duties with little conflict. In this team you have Bergkamp as your playmaker who will be seeing more of the ball while Gullit's off the ball ability would be more useful as you need the runners around your false 9. I personally don't think there's any attacking role where Gullit wouldn't be great, but here it's quite specific and difficult compare that to his absolute peak years.

 

[2mufc0]

I was talking specifically about the playmaking ability, not overall.

Oh yeah i can agree with that.

I just think Gullit's off the ball movement and dribbles from deep as the free man will cause havoc here.

 

[Tuppet]

I would have to disagree with that, if i copy pasted VDS achievements here it would fill the screen. Edwin played successfully at several clubs in the toughest leagues and has good international tournaments. Not saying your keeper is no good but imo Edwin is better.

You can fill up the the screeen with VDS achievements but I doubt any one of them is as impressive as arguably one of the greatest underdog victory in world cup history. FWIW VDS is probably better just by the virtue of being a more modern keeper but in the terms of their resume and achievements there is hardly anything between them.

 

[2mufc0]

You can fill up the the screeen with VDS achievements but I doubt any one of them is as impressive as arguably one of the greatest underdog victory in world cup history. FWIW VDS is probably better just by the virtue of being a more modern keeper but in the terms of their resume and achievements there is hardly anything between them.

I think that's factually incorrect, i couldn't find much on Maspoli apart for his WC exploits.

Here's VDS trophies, accolades & records, i think it's highly unlikely Maspoli won anything as close. Happy to be proven wrong if you have a source.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edwin_van_der_Sar#Honours_and_awards