Roulette Draft - R1: Idmanager vs Don Alfredo

[Indnyc]

Idmanager vs. Don Alfredo

vs.

Tactics Idmanager

Formation : 4-3-3
Tactics : Play to our strengths, play an attacking game and dominate the possession.

Attack :
I have a GOAT left winger with a GOAT right winger and a GOAT striker whose skill sets perfectly support what the wingers have to offer. What can go wrong?

Midfield :
The midfield is the star of the team. Its USP being all 3 midfielders are -
1. Great on the ball
2. Great off the ball
3. Good at holding on to the ball and winning the possession battle.

Of course, all 3 are different in their own rights. Its a classic 4-3-3 midfield with -

1. An advanced play maker who won the Ballon Dor playing this same role around a lot of the same players. Scored plenty of goals (1 in 2 at Barca) as well before moving deeper at Inter
2. A B2B powerhouse who was known to be as good at defending as he was at attacking. He was known to score a lot of goals as well for a central midfielder.
3. A DM who made a name for himself in the stylish Ajax and Yugoslavia setups playing both the DM and sweeper roles with equal ease.

Defence :
The defence has 2 great CB's and a full back pair which for the better part of a decade ruled club football along with their Barcelona teammates.

The DM, LB and RB are all capable of bringing the ball out, allowing me to afford two no nonsense CB's.
The LB who had a tendency to tuck in when the RB bombed forward plays into the hands of my other two CB's.

The great Real Madrid CB, played all his glory years in 3 man defenses which is what we will transition to when the RB bombs forward.

The other Uruguayan WC winning CB was quite accustomed to play the role of a RCB which should be perfect to give my right back the freedom he deserves

Tactics Don Alfredo

THE IDEA

Counter-attacking 4231 with an incredibly strong back 6 and fast and skillful game-changers up front

THE TEAM

My defense is marshalled by Daniel Passarella, the best defender in the pool and one of the greatest World Cup winning captains ever. He leads a defense of 4 World Cup winners, every single one of them excelled at the big stage like very few of their peers. Some may think Varane does not fit into this category of All-Time level defenders, but I disagree. France’s World Cup success was based on a great defensive stability and he was their best player.

My midfield consists of two of the best Box-2-Box midfielders ever, Edwards and Tardelli. They possess great physicality, insane work-rate and big talent in quickly transitioning the ball from the back to the front. They are also perfectly suited to covering the flanks if needed.

My offence is built around the King of Rome, Francesco Totti. He is one of the most skilled players ever on a technical level, he could simply do everything. I want him to be the centre piece of my attack, receiving the ball up field, distributing the ball in behind or to the sides and finishing attacks from the edge of the box.

Kaka and Bale are the ultimate counter-attacking weapons to pick out with passes behind the defence. Boniek is the last part of my attack and acts as the enigma of the side. He gives me that unpredictable element; he terrorized defences in Italy, Europe and at the World Cup with his mesmerizing dribbling, movement, shots and passes.

HOW I MATCH UP AGAINST MY OPPONENT

idmanager has very good players on the wings and in central attack. With Bergomi and Cabrini, I have two of the best fullbacks in the draft to take care of them. Furthermore, the Edwards-Tardelli double pivot is the perfect fit for supporting and protecting my defence without giving up the midfield. Passarella is told to stay at the back and defend against Kocsis, together with Varane. They are two excellent headers of the ball with giant leaps, so they should match up well against Kocsis’ aerial threat.

I expect idmanager to have more possession, but I think that he will be mostly harmless through central attacks. My double pivot is well suited to match up against any central threat and he can’t commit too many players forward or he will leave acres of space and big gaps at the back.

This is particularly true for Dani Alves, who will be harassed by Boniek all night when the opposition has the ball. He can’t play his usual “acting as right winger” attacking game, or I will cause big damage down his side.

HOW I WILL SCORE

Totti acts as a false 9 in this side, overloading the centre of the pitch and distributing the ball behind the lines with his incredible passing and hold-up play. Nasazzi and Santamaria have a huge problem to face: Either they follow him into midfield and give up acres of space behind them or they allow Totti to overload my already very strong central/attacking midfield and stretch their formation.

Bale is a huge threat with and without the ball. He can stay at the right byline, prevent Abidal from tucking in and create gaps between his defenders. His next move is crossing inside between Abidal and the CB, running diagonally to drag the CBs with him. While Bale comes inside, Kaka can attack down the right and break through with his dribbling ability and insane speed, with and without the ball.

My attack has a huge flexibility and constant movement between them, dragging defenders all over the place, creating confusion and mismatches. Boniek is the ultimate movement player, he can pop up all over the attack and do severe damage. Bale can even show up at the left to expose Dani Alves running up the field.

EVERYTHING IMPORTANT IN SHORT FORM

1) My defense is very well suited against idmanager’s attackers

2) If he stays deep with his defenders, my attackers will do big damage with dribbles between the lines, especially against someone like Alves. Santamaria is also not the best fit to defend against nimble dribblers.

3) If he stays compact in the middle, I can play passes in behind and Kaka and Bale will be unstoppable during my counter attacks.

4) I back my side to grab a goal or two through set-pieces, with Passarella one of the best ever to score from set pieces and Bale’s outstanding free-kick ability.

 

[Indnyc]

Good luck @idmanager and @Don Alfredo

 

[Don Alfredo]

@idmanager good luck!

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

@Indnyc put the pics side by side (Delete all spaces between)

 

[Indnyc]

@Indnyc put the pics side by side (Delete all spaces between)

I tried doing it but the pictures are different sizes and it doesn't come side by side

Edit: Never mind. It's done

 

[idmanager]

@idmanager good luck!

Good luck to you too mate and thanks @Indnyc for setting this up (and right on time ).

 

[idmanager]

Came across this beautiful piece on Sir Stanley Matthews from one of @Tuppet 's old games.

Sir Stanley Matthews

​

He told me that he used to play for just 20 pounds a week. Today he would be worth all the money in the Bank of England. - Gianfranco Zola

The man who taught us the way football should be played - Pele

He was my first hero and still would be my hero if he was here today. It was an absolute pleasure to stand and watch him play. - Sir Bobby Charlton

I grew up in an era when he was a god to those of us who aspired to play the game. He was a true gentleman and we shall never see his like again. - Brian Clough

In his moments he would tear a man apart, tear a team apart. - Sir Matt Busby

Stanley Matthews is a perfectionist, and when he gets the ball he refuses to pass it just for the sake of passing it. He wants his colleagues to move into position, to get away from opponents into the right position for the pass that will bring a goal. If no one moves, Stan will hold the ball until everyone is in position. And no one can hold a ball like Stan. He has uncanny control, and looks quite happy when three or four men are around him. - Tommy Lowtown

Finney was the more consistent all-rounder, but no one mesmerised defences like Matthews on his day - Maurice Edelstone and Terence Delaney

The first ballon d'or winner was one of the finest dribbler of all time, dubbed as the Wizard and the Magician, he is considered the greatest pure right winger along with Garrincha. Most fans have seen footage of him when he was on the very tail end of his career. At or near the physical peak of his career, Sir Stan was unleashed lightning on the pitch. Even in his Fourties he was turning top-flight calibre defenders inside-out on a weekly basis for both club & country.

Place in history​

One of the criticism people about Sir Stan is his lack of goals, that is because he played as a right-winger in the Chapman style W-M. He was supposed to stay out wide, drop back, make himself available, roast his marker, and get in pin-point crosses, all of which he was VERY good at. There were plenty of players who could bang in 20+ goals a season back then, but VERY few could set people up like Sir Stan. He was very much a playmaker in the team playing as outside right in W-M, and the right winger feeding near post crosses to the number 9 is the key attacking move in this formation. Matthews was probably the best ever at both setting up and delivering the final ball in this key connection.

Another complaint is his lack of trophies and the biggest reason was the English league system of that time. He played for a local club in the era before Johnny Haynes & Jimmy Hill broke the max wage. Why go to a big club like Arsenal or Chelsea, live away from what you were used to and be under all that pressure for the purposes of glory-hunting when you got paid exactly the same amount for staying right where you wanted to ? The likes of Coke & Nike also weren't handing out seven figure endorsement deals to plug their cola or trainers if you happened to play for a big club. Let's face it: a big reason why top players make a beeline for big clubs is in order to "ring the register" in the modern era. No such avenues or temptations existed for top players in Sir Stan's day & playing for England, which was the highest level of play, Sir Stan was dynamite on the pitch.

More than anything else though, he was an entertainer of the highest quality. Fo 20 or so years he was the biggest draw in English football, and its said that he used to draw 10,000 extra fans when playing on away ground, while filling his own ground with 22K faithfuls. In an era without TV or commercials income, he was an insanely important asset for his team.

Ballon D'or​

His Ballon D'or is considered honorary by some fans, in that its given to him for some sort of lifetime achievement award. But thats quite far from the truth. The Ballon D'or was awarded like always by a panel of voters with Sir Stanley receiving 47 points over Di Stefano receiving 44, Kopa 33 and Puskas 32 points. The voting might be considered contentious like it was in many other years, but it wasn't an honorary award.

As for why would he receive it, in that year - He led Blackpool to second place behind only to Sir Busby's first great United team. England also played some blinders in that time as well: Hammering Spain @ Wembley 4-1 in Nov. of '55 (technically before '56, but I'm sure that it was still fresh in the voters' minds). In May of '56 England also hammered a Brazil XI 4-2 that had many of the future Sweden '58 WC-winners in the line-up while Sir Stan gave Nilton Santos, then considered one of the TOP left-backs around, a torrid time all throughout the match. Later in the same month, England also defeated W. Germany, who were the defending WC-champions, 3-1 on Germany's home turf in Berlin. So, while Di Stefano almost certainly had the better club season, Sir Stan almost definitely had the better year at international level. And in this era, Internationals (even friendly) were the highest level of football.

Videos​

Here's some footage of Sir Stan when he was closer to his physical peak. Remember that the most of the clips will be on around 30 fps speed film, so you'll have to correct for the "live look" in your head as they seem slower than the real action.

Here's Sir Stan in action against Brazil in '56. Watch him getting past Santos practically at will and the quality of his passes, especially his crossing into the box:


This is Sir Stan in action against Spurs in the 6th Rd. of the FA Cup back in March of '48:


Here's Him & Sir Tommy Finney driving a ten man England forward to defeat a Wales XI 1-0 in Nov. of the same year. Pay particular attention to the clips where Sir Stan completely dismantles Wales L-B Alf Sherwood, who was one of the best around:


The redemption for Matthews after on the losing side of 2 cup finals, he was finally the hero at the age of 38, in 1953 cup final against Bolton:


Against Rest of the world XI, squaring against Hanappi who was one of the best around at that time -


Here's another one -


Here is a great profile on Sir Stan with the bits from the likes of Sir Matt Busby, Lofthouse, Mortensen etc - http://spartacus-educational.com/BLACKPmatthews.htm

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

@harms how good was Vasovic as DM? Is that like Sammer playing DM?

 

[Physiocrat]

Initial thoughts. Don Alfredo is under using Passarella but makes a lot of tactical sense. I can also see his front four working very well indeed even though I'm not a Bale fan.

Id has an excellent front 6 but I don't see the point of Alves with Matthews ahead of him. Ideally you wanted an attacking left-back and a more balanced right back as Czibor was more of a roaming winger than Matthews. As such I think Alves attacking input will be lessened.

 

[idmanager]

Id has an excellent front 6 but I don't see the point of Alves with Matthews ahead of him. Ideally you wanted an attacking left-back and a more balanced right back as Czibor was more of a roaming winger than Matthews. As such I think Alves attacking input will be lessened.

Actually, Matthews played a significant amount of his career with Jimmy Armfield, considered the first attacking English full back.
They formed an excellent partnership on the right wing for Blackpool.
They were in fact the first English wing combo that started the overlapping football in the wings.

Here is what Armfield had to say about it on BBC

How Jimmy Armfield was a pioneer for overlapping full-backs
Former Blackpool and England captain Jimmy Armfield explained how he invented the role of the overlapping full-back in the English game.

The move, where the full-back overtakes the winger on the pitch, is a widely used tactic in the modern game.

Armfield, 81, reveals how he came up with tactic with fellow Blackpool and England legend Sir Stanley Matthews.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p05dnjd3

 

[idmanager]

Ideally you wanted an attacking left-back and a more balanced right back as Czibor was more of a roaming winger than Matthews. As such I think Alves attacking input will be lessened.

From what I know, Barcelona in the 50's played 3 at the back and never had an overlapping fullback on the left or right. Czibor almost always run that flank on his own.
Also, he scored a lot of goals as well and in that sense he did like to cut in from time to time.

Coming to Alves, for me, that left hand side of Don is there to be taken.

Passarella for starters always played with a defensive LB. I get the instructions given but that is not his natural instinct.
Then you have Cabrini who run a flank alone in zona mista with an always covering LCB.

On the right side in my team, you then have Matthews, Alves overlapping and then Suarez as the right CM.
I can see my right side having a great game with that unbalanced left side of Don.

 

[Don Alfredo]

Actually, Matthews played a significant amount of his career with Jimmy Armfield, considered the first attacking English full back.
They formed an excellent partnership on the right wing for Blackpool.
They were in fact the first English wing combo that started the overlapping football in the wings.

Here is what Armfield had to say about it on BBC

How Jimmy Armfield was a pioneer for overlapping full-backs
Former Blackpool and England captain Jimmy Armfield explained how he invented the role of the overlapping full-back in the English game.

The move, where the full-back overtakes the winger on the pitch, is a widely used tactic in the modern game.

Armfield, 81, reveals how he came up with tactic with fellow Blackpool and England legend Sir Stanley Matthews.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p05dnjd3

That is some cracking research mate

I still think you would fare better with a more defensive right back on that side. You simply don't need Alves in attack when Matthews can do all the things he does and that is your defensively weaker side as well, with Suarez being much more attacking than Pirri on the other side.

 

[idmanager]

That is some cracking research mate

I still think you would fare better with a more defensive right back on that side. You simply don't need Alves in attack when Matthews can do all the things he does and that is your defensively weaker side as well, with Suarez being much more attacking than Pirri on the other side.

I have addressed my rationale behind it in a post above mate

 

[Don Alfredo]

From what I know, Barcelona in the 50's played 3 at the back and never had an overlapping fullback on the left or right. Czibor almost always run that flank on his own.
Also, he scored a lot of goals as well and in that sense he did like to cut in from time to time.

Coming to Alves, for me, that left hand side of Don is there to be taken.

Passarella for starters always played with a defensive LB. I get the instructions given but that is not his natural instinct.
Then you have Cabrini who run a flank alone in zona mista with an always covering LCB.

On the right side in my team, you then have Matthews, Alves overlapping and then Suarez as the right CM.
I can see my right side having a great game with that unbalanced left side of Don.

I disagree with the left side being vulnerable.

In the op, I assigned Boniek to keep tabs on Alves. He follows him to an extent to limit his influence in midfield and when Alves goes full gung-ho, the space behind him is there for the taking, with Suarez not being the midfielder you want to cover for Alves on the side.

I don't get the criticism of my left side at all. The only other LB who is clearly better than Cabrini defensively is Maldini, and maybe Krol but not by much. He is positionally astute, he is physical, he has insane stamina and defending is in his blood. Of course he was an attacking presence in his career and I also want him to bring the ball out of the back to start the counter. That doesn't mean that he can't defend well here next to the best CB in the draft.

I would understand your take if it was Marcelo next to Passarella, who would go gung-ho on every occasion and is potentially a weak point defensively, but here you just have a LB and CB who are both very good on the ball and clearly instructed to be part of a solid back 6 to get the ball and start the counter.

Plus I even have Duncan Edwards on that side, who has been forgotten it seems. He is perfect in that role of protecting the defense, covering the side if needed and start the counter immediately with his great abilities on the ball.

 

[Indnyc]

From what I know, Barcelona in the 50's played 3 at the back and never had an overlapping fullback on the left or right. Czibor almost always run that flank on his own.
Also, he scored a lot of goals as well and in that sense he did like to cut in from time to time.

Coming to Alves, for me, that left hand side of Don is there to be taken.

Passarella for starters always played with a defensive LB. I get the instructions given but that is not his natural instinct.
Then you have Cabrini who run a flank alone in zona mista with an always covering LCB.

On the right side in my team, you then have Matthews, Alves overlapping and then Suarez as the right CM.
I can see my right side having a great game with that unbalanced left side of Don.

I would disagree that it is unbalanced. Edwards should be a good cover when Cabrini gets caught out of position and Passarella can easily cover as well. It's not as if both Cabrini and Passarella are going to be out of position at the same time unless Don Alfredo is chasing the game and committing everybody forward.

I do like your right side though especially Suarez on that side. Matthews and Alves may be an overkill but i can't decide if i like it or not.. Alves has generally given his best performances when he has a wide forward cut inside so he can overlap which is slightly different to the role here

 

[P-Nut]

@Don Alfredo needs a playmaker somewhere in there. Kaka worked best with Pirlo being the main playmaker and neither Edwards or Tardelli can provide that same platform.

 

[idmanager]

In the op, I assigned Boniek to keep tabs on Alves. He follows him to an extent to limit his influence in midfield

Firstly, if you have assigned Boniek to keep tabs on Alves, that breaks your setup in the attack completely.
The idea behind Spaletti's Roma where Totti played the false 9 role was on counters when Totti came deep, he had the wide players to quickly setup onto the goal.
Assigning any defensive duties on Boniek or Bale is simply suicidal for your system with the role Totti is playing.

with Suarez not being the midfielder you want to cover for Alves on the side.

Wait, why do I need my playmaker to cover for Alves. Nasazzi is perfect foil when Boniek cuts in and if he manages to beat Alves. That is how it worked at Barca as well with Puyol donning that role. Why does every setup need a MF to support a fullback?

The only other LB who is clearly better than Cabrini defensively is Maldini, and maybe Krol but not by much.

That is not true by any stretch of imagination. How about Fachettit/Schnellinger/Nilton for starters? Cabrini was known for his attacking output and that is what made him a great in that position. I am not calling him a nut or to be Marcelo, but you have to remember who he is dealing with. Its Stanley fecking Matthews who ran rings around greats like Nilton Santos on his day.

but here you just have a LB and CB who are both very good on the ball and clearly instructed to be part of a solid back 6 to get the ball and start the counter.

I am sorry mate, but I don't think you can build a solid back 4 when you are playing on the counter with Passarella and Cabrini on one side in a 4 man defense. Unless of course, you completely remove their attacking instincts and call them second best to just Maldini and Figueroa. Passarella in fact was always suspect to leaving gaps and needed covering throughout his career.

Plus I even have Duncan Edwards on that side, who has been forgotten it seems. He is perfect in that role of protecting the defense, covering the side if needed and start the counter immediately with his great abilities on the ball.

The whole point of Suarez on the right is to keep Edwards busy. If he goes out helping Cabrini, Suarez is free to run riot.
Lets not forget Passarella is assigned to Kocsis. I am not sure how he covers for Cabrini and helps out against Kocsis. Surely he cant help defend stopping the cross coming in from Matthews and winning the header from Kocsis both on his own?

 

[idmanager]

Edwards should be a good cover when Cabrini gets caught out of position and Passarella can easily cover as well. It's not as if both Cabrini and Passarella are going to be out of position at the same time unless Don Alfredo is chasing the game and committing everybody forward.

Just replied to this

The whole point of Suarez on the right is to keep Edwards busy. If he goes out helping Cabrini, Suarez is free to run riot.
Lets not forget Passarella is assigned to Kocsis. I am not sure how he covers for Cabrini and helps out against Kocsis. Surely he cant help defend stopping the cross coming in from Matthews and winning the header from Kocsis both on his own?

Matthews and Alves may be an overkill but i can't decide if i like it or not.. Alves has generally given his best performances when he has a wide forward cut inside so he can overlap which is slightly different to the role here

You have to remember that Alves played with Sanchez on the right too.

Also, the thing with Matthews is, he is depicted as a go out wide, cross, rinse, repeat sort of a winger, but he actually like to come in a lot and be the primary playmaker for his team as well. Its unfortunate in drafts that people tag players in certain way that Matthews can just go out wide and cross, Kocsis is a great header of the ball, so lets forget everything else that was great about him and his finishing with the feet. Not everyone does it, but it is a well observed pattern.

 

[idmanager]

@Don Alfredo needs a playmaker somewhere in there. Kaka worked best with Pirlo being the main playmaker and neither Edwards or Tardelli can provide that same platform.

I was about to come to this next.

There is a clear lack of a playmaker in midfield except for Totti who is playing as false 9.
Also, with Cabrini and Passarella in their limited roles, the counter attacking system begs someone like Alonso from the deep who can ping in those long balls.
Sure, Tardelli and Edwards were B2B but besides having their hands full usually, they cant be expected to play the role of someone like a Alonso or Carrick who can quickly open up a tight well organized defense.

 

[Indnyc]

Just replied to this

You have to remember that Alves played with Sanchez on the right too.

Also, the thing with Matthews is, he is depicted as a go out wide, cross, rinse, repeat sort of a winger, but he actually like to come in a lot and be the primary playmaker for his team as well. Its unfortunate in drafts that people tag players in certain way that Matthews can just go out wide and cross, Kocsis is a great header of the ball, so lets forget everything else that was great about him and his finishing with the feet. Not everyone does it, but it is a well observed pattern.

I get what you are saying and though unfair to bucket people into specific roles, people view players doing what they do best.

Beckham for example drifted inside and helped the midfield quite a bit but is always remembered for his crosses only.. Which of course is unfair..

Matthews/ Alves can work and I don’t disagree with that but is it bringing out the best in both of them is a question mark for me

 

[Physiocrat]

@Šjor Bepo You did a video on Armfield recently, how do you think he compares to Alves as a right-back?

 

[idmanager]

My defensive shape on the counters.
You can see how Boniek and Bale are easily taken care of by Abidal and Nasazzi two very good matches.

 

[idmanager]

Matthews/ Alves can work and I don’t disagree with that but is it bringing out the best in both of them is a question mark for me

Well, that is fair enough. He will obvioyusly be more gung ho when someone like Messi is ahead of him.
But yes, he can still be very good here in attack just like Jairzinho and Carlos Alberto were.
We cant give all 11 players their ideal setup
Also, someone like Matthews allows Alves to be less gung ho and be better prepared and covered defensively.

Why I wanted Alves desperately was to get the best out of Kocsis. Even if the wingers are marked out by any opponent, there should always be more options to ping crosses to him in the box.

 

[Tuppet]

Just replied to this





You have to remember that Alves played with Sanchez on the right too.

Also, the thing with Matthews is, he is depicted as a go out wide, cross, rinse, repeat sort of a winger, but he actually like to come in a lot and be the primary playmaker for his team as well. Its unfortunate in drafts that people tag players in certain way that Matthews can just go out wide and cross, Kocsis is a great header of the ball, so lets forget everything else that was great about him and his finishing with the feet. Not everyone does it, but it is a well observed pattern.

He was a creative winger and was playmaking in that sense but with all the footage that I've watched of Matthews I never even once saw him playing any passing game with an overlapping player. Its the same with Garrincha, they get the ball and its in a black hole, it doesn't matter if they cut in or not, they would not pass the ball. They would receive the ball dribble, dribble, cross (or shoot in Garrincha's case much less in Matthews). So Alves might run all he wants to provide overlap he is not getting the ball if its with Matthews.

Also Armfield might have been a pioneer in 50s he is still a long long way off from Alves as an attacking full back, who is very attacking even from today's standards.

Apart from this I can't really find any fault in your team, really clean tactically and would be very hard to beat.

 

[idmanager]

He was a creative winger and was playmaking in that sense but with all the footage that I've watched of Matthews I never even once saw him playing any passing game with an overlapping player. Its the same with Garrincha, they get the ball and its in a black hole, it doesn't matter if they cut in or not, they would not pass the ball. They would receive the ball dribble, dribble, cross (or shoot in Garrincha's case much less in Matthews). So Alves might run all he wants to provide overlap he is not getting the ball if its with Matthews.

Also Armfield might have been a pioneer in 50s he is still a long long way off from Alves as an attacking full back, who is very attacking even from today's standards.

Apart from this I can't really find any fault in your team, really clean tactically and would be very hard to beat.

To be fair, Matthews and Armfield played together at the latter end of Matthews' career.
Also the art of overlapping was just developing. Football hadn't reached a stage where fullbacks were going gung ho.

We cant fault Maththews and Garrincha for playing the football of their eras

But that doesnt mean if they were players of today with the same skillsets, they wouldnt have appreciated an overlapping out ball.
These are players who will be marked by mutiple players and have to be tackled crazily to get an hold off.
In all all time draft with so many greats around, it would definitely not make their job straight forwards.
You get a couple of players to mark Matthews and his out ball suddenly takes so many players out.
We need to look these players in modern tactics and think if they would have appreciated it. I would like to think so.

Also, thanks for the compliment on the team.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

@Šjor Bepo You did a video on Armfield recently, how do you think he compares to Alves as a right-back?

From what i read and from that one game you could watch of Armfield(mind you, Matthews didnt play there) he was bombing that right flank pretty often, id say from what i saw he went up more often then Nilton for comparison.
Never watched Matthews though so cant really say much on that topic....

 

[idmanager]

Keeping the tactical side of things aside, I would definitely like to question how people compare my attackers to Don's individually.

For me, Kocsis/Czibor/Matthews/Suarez all are easily a tier above Bale/Kaka.
Boniek and Totti are two players I rate well and think they belong in an all time draft, but even those two would definitely fall behind Kocsis and Matthews for me.
Suarez also has a Ballon Dor but I like Totti well enough to treat him in the same tier alonside him.

 

[Indnyc]

Keeping the tactical side of things aside, I would definitely like to question how people compare my attackers to Don's individually.

For me, Kocsis/Czibor/Matthews/Suarez all are easily a tier above Bale/Kaka.
Boniek and Totti are two players I rate well and think they belong in an all time draft, but even those two would definitely fall behind Kocsis and Matthews for me.
Suarez also has a Ballon Dor but I like Totti well enough to treat him in the same tier alonside him.

I can't disagree too much with this. Though i do think Kaka belongs in an all time draft at least for the first round

 

[idmanager]

I can't disagree too much with this. Though i do think Kaka belongs in an all time draft at least for the first round

Oh I dont disagree at all with him featuring. In fact, you might have seen my appreciation for him in the draft thread as well when he was picked
That of course, still places him at least one if not two tiers below.

 

[Don Alfredo]

@Don Alfredo needs a playmaker somewhere in there. Kaka worked best with Pirlo being the main playmaker and neither Edwards or Tardelli can provide that same platform.

Totti is the one distributing the ball to my attackers behind the lines, will post more on that later. Any playmaker would have not been up to the job Edwards and Tardelli have to do here, which is cover space, win the ball and start the counter. I am not playing possession football, that is why I don‘t need a playmaker from central midfield like Kroos to control the game. Plus I have defenders who are very good on the ball, not your usual defenders who just hoof it up.

My defensive shape on the counters.
You can see how Boniek and Bale are easily taken care of by Abidal and Nasazzi two very good matches.

For you to play possession football, you simply have to push up your formation or it is just passing the ball around the back. Have a look at Bayern, Barca, etc all the dominant teams from today. They push up their CBs to the halfway line to connect their players when attacking. Also Dani Alves and Pirri in your half makes no sense, this is supposed to show a situation where it changes from your attack to my attack, they have to be further forward to have any kind of impact. Where you put Alves is where Philip Lahm would be, but not him.

Keeping the tactical side of things aside, I would definitely like to question how people compare my attackers to Don's individually.

For me, Kocsis/Czibor/Matthews/Suarez all are easily a tier above Bale/Kaka.
Boniek and Totti are two players I rate well and think they belong in an all time draft, but even those two would definitely fall behind Kocsis and Matthews for me.
Suarez also has a Ballon Dor but I like Totti well enough to treat him in the same tier alonside him.

I am not a fan of comparing attack vs attack cause they don‘t compete with each other. It is my attack vs your defence and your attack vs my defence, where I am excellent.

My attack has two underrated players in Kaka and Bale and I expected that, but I will just say that they will profit massively from the type of counter attacking football I will execute. You have no defender who can catch Bale or Kaka when Totti puts them through, they are simply too fast. Also you said Bale is against Abidal, but I specifically said Kaka is drifting to the right to break through with his dribbling.

I agree if you would have said they are much worse than your players in possession football, but in terms of counter attacking football, they are two of the most dangerous ever.

Bale especially has a massive recency bias against him, with his injury record and being in the shadow of Ronaldo. Now that Ronaldo is gone, he scored 3 goals in 3 games for Real. He will be appreciated much more in the future because of his achievements. He scored the winning goal in 2 CL finals (outshined Cristiano in 2014 and 2018 final) and he led Wales to their best ever result, placing Top4 in the Euros. He also has 2 Player of the year awards in England without playing for a side capable of winnig the title.

I am on the train now and train wifi is not working so just a quick response. Will comment more in detail later.

 

[idmanager]

Totti is the one distributing the ball to my attackers behind the lines, will post more on that later. Any playmaker would have not been up to the job Edwards and Tardelli have to do here, which is cover space, win the ball and start the counter. I am not playing possession football, that is why I don‘t need a playmaker from central midfield like Kroos to control the game.

Err, I was talking of a deeper play maker to launch those quick counters. Totti will never be that deep in your system.
The ball reaches the other end quicker through a long pass than a B2B midfielder carrying it, which is essential for a counter attacking system.
Or else, you are giving too much time for the opposition to organize themselves.

For you to play possession football, you simply have to push up your formation or it is just passing the ball around the back. Have a look at Bayern, Barca, etc all the dominant teams from today. They push up their CBs to the halfway line to connect their players when attacking

Ah, finally someone makes this point. Was waiting for it to happen.
Dominating possession is not the same as playing possession based football. Probably the most common misunderstanding I have seen among drafters.
Even Mourinho's Manutd dominates possession in some games depending on the opposition. Does it mean we are playing possession based football?

You are playing a reactive counter attacking game, while I am playing an an attacking game with lots of good passers to hold onto the ball in the midfield. Why would my possession stats not be better than yours?
Are you saying you will have more than 50% of the posssession playing counter attacking football?

 

[Physiocrat]

From what i read and from that one game you could watch of Armfield(mind you, Matthews didnt play there) he was bombing that right flank pretty often, id say from what i saw he went up more often then Nilton for comparison.
Never watched Matthews though so cant really say much on that topic....

Thanks for the info

 

[idmanager]

My attack has two underrated players in Kaka and Bale and I expected that

Underrated? How? Don't tell me you rate Bale at par with Robben? He simply hasnt had a career like him. One overhead kick in a UCL final doesn't change that he has never reached his potential

You have no defender who can catch Bale or Kaka when Totti puts them through, they are simply too fast.

Where does speed come into picture when Abidal, Vasovic , Santamaria and Nasazzi are staying back? Bale and Kaka will have to beat them to have a shot, not beat them for pace in a race.

Bale especially has a massive recency bias against him, with his injury record and being in the shadow of Ronaldo.

Again, how? Injuries or no injuries, he has simply not fulfilled his potential at Madrid. If not for that UCL final goal, most would have declared his Madrid stint a failure. Forget Ronaldo, do you think he has even had a career like Robben's?

I am on the train now and train wifi is not working so just a quick response. Will comment more in detail later.

Sure mate. I will hold onto further 1 on 1 arguments till you are back

 

[idmanager]

Thanks for the info

Mind me asking what decided your vote? Surely not just the Alves' attacking potential not being utilized to the maximum.
Asking just to see if I can change your mind since I dont see many neutrals around anyways till now.

 

[Indnyc]

I’ll wait for Don to explain his tactics a bit more before voting.

 

[Physiocrat]

Mind me asking what decided your vote? Surely not just the Alves' attacking potential not being utilized to the maximum.
Asking just to see if I can change your mind since I dont see many neutrals around anyways till now.

I can see Don's back 4 and double pivot being very hard to break do. Cabrini was good defensively and Bergomi was excellent. I also think whilst someone like Xabi Alonso would be a good fit Passarella and Edwards have a good enough passing range to get the ball forward well enough. I think the biggest mismatch is Boniek on Alves - I've never rated Alves' defensive ability. Also Totti and Kaka will provide a very different threat for your CBs than they've faced. That's not to say they couldn't do a good job, I just see Totti and Kaka linking really well.

 

[idmanager]

I can see Don's back 4 and double pivot being very hard to break do. Cabrini was good defensively and Bergomi was excellent. I also think whilst someone like Xabi Alonso would be a good fit Passarella and Edwards have a good enough passing range to get the ball forward well enough. I think the biggest mismatch is Boniek on Alves - I've never rated Alves' defensive ability. Also Totti and Kaka will provide a very different threat for your CBs than they've faced. That's not to say they couldn't do a good job, I just see Totti and Kaka linking really well.

Appreciate explaining your vote.

I will of course, leave you with this video of Alves on Ronaldo over the last decade. His attacking credentials take away his defensive work rate which is very underrated. If he was that big a liability, Ronaldo would have scored a couple of goals in every classico. I have posted enough times about Nasazzi being ideal to cover Boniek, so will not keeping playing the same tune. Cheers.



Regarding Nasazzi and Santamaria not having played with the players of the likes of Totti and Kaka -

Totti here is playing a false which is similar to what most pre warCF's like Sarosi/Pedernera/Sindelar/Hidegkuti(post war) played. I don't think that is correct.

Also, direct fast players like Kaka existed back in the day as well if that is what you meant. Kaka for me doesn't have any special unique skills to set him apart from one era to another. Sure he was quick and can dribble, but if you are saying players were not like that back in the day, I will disagree.

 

[Physiocrat]

Appreciate explaining your vote.

I will of course, leave you with this video of Alves on Ronaldo over the last decade. His attacking credentials take away his defensive work rate which is very underrated. If he was that big a liability, Ronaldo would have scored a couple of goals in every classico. I have posted enough times about Nasazzi being ideal to cover Boniek, so will not keeping playing the same tune. Cheers.



Regarding Nasazzi and Santamaria not having played with the players of the likes of Totti and Kaka -

Totti here is playing a false which is similar to what most pre warCF's like Sarosi/Pedernera/Sindelar/Hidegkuti(post war) played. I don't think that is correct.

Also, direct fast players like Kaka existed back in the day as well if that is what you meant. Kaka for me doesn't have any special unique skills to set him apart from one era to another. Sure he was quick and can dribble, but if you are saying players were not like that back in the day, I will disagree.

I'll take a look at the Alves video. Nasazzi could have played against a false 9 (although it wasn't that common IIRC), I think it less likely for Santamaria. When I mentioned Kaka he isn't much different to players back then, I was just thinking of him and Totti as a combo being different rather than Kaka himself.

 

[idmanager]

I think it less likely for Santamaria. When I mentioned Kaka he isn't much different to players back then, I was just thinking of him and Totti as a combo being different rather than Kaka himself.

The 50's was all about the false 9 coming deep and the two inside forwards making darting runs in which started with the Hungarians, then Real Madrid followed suite and you would see its traces all across Europe.

Take the 1958-59 European Cup final for example

 

[Physiocrat]

@idmanager

Much of the Alves video had Barca double teaming Ronaldo. That said Alves does do pretty well with his recovery speed defending on the counter. That said he does resort to early fouls a bit and Boniek is a much better dribbler than the Real Ronaldo.

With respect to false 9age Nordahl was Milan's target man for much of the time and John Charles played there for Juve. False 9age was more common than I originally made out but I don't think it was quite as common as you seem to suggest