Rotation…

SamoyedSam said:
Chelsea are doing rotation very well this season but of course it helps having a strong second 11.
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Supporters and pundits everywhere mocked and shit on us all summer for having a big squad and buying so many attacking midfielders. But it has been perhaps THE reason we’ve been doing so well thus far. We can rotate the entire XI sometimes or make sweeping changes like yesterday against Southampton and not have our levels drop in a considerable way.

Everybody has stayed fresh and the competition for places has pushed the players to want to do their best in order to get minutes.
 
If you want to get the squad to buy into your methods, you need them all onside and there's no better way to alienate a big group than to never play them.

People continue to massively overrate our players based on a game or two - Amad starting wouldn't have changed anything yesterday, Arsenal are miles better as a team and individually than Everton and Bodo/Glint. For example, he got the ball after coming on in a great position but got completely shut out and pushed all the way out to the flank. Arsenal are basically Stoke with some better attacking players, they are horrible, physical and aggressive all over the pitch and they gave us next to nothing in terms of genuine chances.
 
Rozay said:
Ah, thanks for clearing that up.
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It's pretty obvious and Amorim himself explained it many times in his what, couple of weeks here. So it's odd to start an entire thread based on such an easily disputed claim. Rotation is not playing people based on whose turn" it is.
 
Rozay said:
Seems that, at least for the time being, our team is being picked based on whose ‘turn’ it is. My take is that Amorim is prioritising laying foundations and training his full squad (as opposed to fewer players) in his methodology over the optimal needs for the 90 mins ahead. Almost like a pre-season, where most of the team is changed at 45 or 60 mins - with the priority being to give everyone a game.

The outcome is that we go to the Emirates tonight and leave Amad on the bench, Rashford who has an excellent record against Arsenal and scored two at the weekend in order to play those who didn’t play last time out. We go to the Etihad in a couple of games, and I must say I’m already a little concerned that the team we put out there will primarily be whose turn it is to play, which could include leaving high performers out.

What are your views on this strategy? I think it will/can yield long term benefit, and is possibly the best way to bring as much of your squad up to speed in the shortest amount of time. One the other hand, I suspect it will also result in games where we might not be giving ourselves our best chance at success.
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Glad Rashford didn't start, that 30 minute disasterclass when he came on showed how poorly suited he would have been in the starting eleven.
 
harms said:
It's pretty obvious and Amorim himself explained it many times in his what, couple of weeks here. So it's odd to start an entire thread based on such an easily disputed claim. Rotation is not playing people based on whose turn" it is.
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He literally said what I also suggested the reason was too. There’s nothing ‘odd’ about a conversation on our rotation, at all.
 
Born2Lose said:
Glad Rashford didn't start, that 30 minute disasterclass when he came on showed how poorly suited he would have been in the starting eleven.
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He’s really regressed as a player, but in a goal-shy team, probably worth putting a player who occasionally kicks the ball in the opponent’s net I reckon. Still, I can never be mad at Rashford being left out these days, generally speaking. He needs to be sold.
 
Dominos said:
5. Ten Hag used to run the same players into the ground every 3/4 days and it was a disaster in this age of hectic football schedules. You need to rotate
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This is imo the most important one. There is still plenty of players playing over 90 minutes a week, but there are much less players getting to 180 match minutes per week. Most teams in much better situation than United have at most 2-3 non-defensive players that can handle this match load for an extended period of time.
 
Everyone entitled to there own opinions and I'm pretty sure the OP will disagree but I'm reading the first sign of negativity towards our new coach. Didn't take long for the rot to set in.
 
I certainly like what I'm seeing given the situation. I do think the team is slowly coming up to speed on what he expects. Kinda like poker, if you're playing correctly, immediate results don't matter (a hard one for the watching fan to swallow, for sure) - it's the long run where you get the payoff. A little pain now should really pay off in the second half of the season. Getting all the players on board by rotating through them all keeps their interest and acclimates them all to the system.
 
Rozay said:
I’d be interested to see how we’ve concluded that if these players start two games in a row they are likely to be injured, in that case.
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Sure. If the coach picks a different squad to the one you would prefer it must be down to some random rotation.
 
simplyared said:
Everyone entitled to there own opinions and I'm pretty sure the OP will disagree but I'm reading the first sign of negativity towards our new coach. Didn't take long for the rot to set in.
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:lol: :lol: :lol:

As you say, everyones entitled to their own opinions and my opinion about this post is, that it is very delicate little flower. But if anything, many posters on here have extremely good antennas for negativity so I guess you are onto something
 
Rozay said:
I’m seeing a lot of ‘he said’ m. He has ‘clearly said’ a lot of things - including that ‘we have to train. We will change the team so everyone has an opportunity to train. Those who play cannot train, and the others will train’.

So as I said in my very first post, there is certainly a likelihood, or at least a possibility, that he is treating this period as something of a pre-season and and wants everyone to take turns between playing and training. Which has its merits, as I also pointed out, for the defensive ones like @Squeaky_Bum_Time whose take to my post was ‘our fanbase is hopeless’. The long term benefits are obvious.

In the short term, you would hope Amad plays against City, for example, but there’s nothing to indicate that he necessarily will, even if fit, seeing as the XI doesn’t appear to be picked on how people played last time out. Wouldn’t surprise me if Antony starts instead, for example, just due to sheer rotation and nothing more.
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It’s a case of me reading tons of negative comments as soon as it was clear Amad was not starting, all the way through the game, and then your thread after.

The reaction is not to you only. You unfortunately got an overreaction for me, you’re right.

The gist of what I’m saying is that no one should be surprised, he’s been very open and upfront about it. But you’re disagreeing with him overdoing it essentially, which is a valid opinion.

I think when the games ease off and he’s had a long enough period of time, barring injuries, we’ll see more “usual” rotation of 2-3 players game to game. December won’t be that time IMO.
 
I'm fine with him being cautious about the players fitness. I remember Ole coming in, going ten games unbeaten or whatever it was and then everybody looking dead on their feet afterwards with defeats to relegated teams at OT.
 
Rozay said:
I’m seeing a lot of ‘he said’ m. He has ‘clearly said’ a lot of things - including that ‘we have to train. We will change the team so everyone has an opportunity to train. Those who play cannot train, and the others will train’.

So as I said in my very first post, there is certainly a likelihood, or at least a possibility, that he is treating this period as something of a pre-season and and wants everyone to take turns between playing and training. Which has its merits, as I also pointed out, for the defensive ones like @Squeaky_Bum_Time whose take to my post was ‘our fanbase is hopeless’. The long term benefits are obvious.

In the short term, you would hope Amad plays against City, for example, but there’s nothing to indicate that he necessarily will, even if fit, seeing as the XI doesn’t appear to be picked on how people played last time out. Wouldn’t surprise me if Antony starts instead, for example, just due to sheer rotation and nothing more.
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His rotation isn't sheer rotation though. He is both managing minutes plus training time for the entire squad to learn and practice the system. He is not merely seeking to find a viable first XI as quickly as possible. He is instead attempting to install his ideas squad wide as quickly as possible. Amidst a hectic schedule and minimal training time
 
I really like that he is taking it as preaseason. It is not a big difference if we finish 7th or 10th in the League.

I expect more rotations against Forest. My guess would be that 2 out of Bruno, Dalot, DeLigt and Mazraoui won't start tomorrow.
 
Orc said:
Supporters and pundits everywhere mocked and shit on us all summer for having a big squad and buying so many attacking midfielders. But it has been perhaps THE reason we’ve been doing so well thus far. We can rotate the entire XI sometimes or make sweeping changes like yesterday against Southampton and not have our levels drop in a considerable way.

Everybody has stayed fresh and the competition for places has pushed the players to want to do their best in order to get minutes.
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yes it helps to spend 2 billion on a squad
 
Personally think it's partly giving everyone a chance to show what they can do and get used to the system, but also partly the lack of training and recovery time between the games.

I don't think he thinks most of the squad is fit enough. Mazrouri amd De Ligt. Two players recently from a team where fitness and professionalism demands would have been very high, and Bruno, who's invariably our fittest player, get picked every game.

I also don't think there's many playing well enough to justify saying they're better performers than whoever plays in their place. Mazrouri, Onana and Amad. That's about it...and two of those are getting picked every game
 
I really hope there is a method to the constant rotation and early subs, I can get it in europa league and cup games but we really do need to start seeing a settled 11 in the premier league, I still find it odd that he has benched zirkzee and rashford for two straight games after both getting a brace against Everton?
 
I believe that Ruben is close to identifying his "first XI" (if there is such a thing as first eleven in modern football). The line-up that started yesterday is pretty close the first team from all the players available in our squad. There are a couple of changes I would like see in that line-up moving forward to nail down our best 'best XI'. Once that happens I hope Ruben uses this set of 14-15 players to start all our premier league games and rotate the squad for Europa and other cup fixtures. This is what I would like to see used in the premier league from here on:

Onana
Maz Yoro Maguire/Shaw
Amad Ugarte Mainoo Martinez/Dalot
Bruno Garnacho
Hojlund/Zirkzee
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I hope that he tries to perfect the system with those players in the league. There are going to be more growing pains, for sure. With more training, better fitness and honing of the system I think we'll start to see positive results along with performances pretty soon.
 
He needs to find the best players out, best positions out, best combinations of players, get the squad fit, get the squad motivated, train them in a new system, get them thinking the way he needs then to on thr pitch. I don't think this is done in any other way than what he is doing. The whole squad needs to be involved and rotated until it starts to click. Then you'll see the first 11 start to settle.

Hes come in at a time that's difficult. Not like he's taken over a title challenging squad. I'd imagine we won't see the full effect till next season, but we'll see progression until then.
 
I think its nonsense. You needa settled team to build consistency. No other big teams does this. Yeah they might change one or two but generally they have a settled first 11.
 
UpWithRivers said:
I think its nonsense. You needa settled team to build consistency. No other big teams does this. Yeah they might change one or two but generally they have a settled first 11.
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He's new, this is the type of thing you do in preseason and first games of the season but he doesn't have that luxury unfortunately but it still needs to be done. He has to know who's who and then build from there. I don't mind it, at Sporting he knew his team and they played a settled 10 or 11 each game and that will come in time but he needs that time.
 
devilsadvoca8 said:
He's new, this is the type of thing you do in preseason and first games of the season but he doesn't have that luxury unfortunately but it still needs to be done. He has to know who's who and then build from there. I don't mind it, at Sporting he knew his team and they played a settled 10 or 11 each game and that will come in time but he needs that time.
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I disagree that's what needs to be done.Pre-season is completely different. Its done for fitness and results dont matter. Sure there will be more changes than usual but it's too much. What does he learn from a different front 3? Do we have to play every combination possible so he can see which ones work together? Even if there are 6 possibilities for the front 3 - there are more. The number of permatations are endless. Then even if he tries every possibility is one game enough to test that theory? Then does that front 3 work with the midfield and how many permutations is that? Then the defence. He will need about 5 seasons to try every permutation.
It's a stupid theory. Play what you think is your best 11 over 3/4/5 plus games and change one or 2 here and there. That first 11 will grow much quicker and understand his tactics at a much faster rate than tinkering every week and in every game.
 
UpWithRivers said:
I disagree that's what needs to be done.Pre-season is completely different. Its done for fitness and results dont matter. Sure there will be more changes than usual but it's too much. What does he learn from a different front 3? Do we have to play every combination possible so he can see which ones work together? Even if there are 6 possibilities for the front 3 - there are more. The number of permatations are endless. Then even if he tries every possibility is one game enough to test that theory? Then does that front 3 work with the midfield and how many permutations is that? Then the defence. He will need about 5 seasons to try every permutation.
It's a stupid theory. Play what you think is your best 11 over 3/4/5 plus games and change one or 2 here and there. That first 11 will grow much quicker and understand his tactics at a much faster rate than tinkering every week and in every game.
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Generally for fitness but not just that with new managers. They need to assess the squad and know what they are dealing with. Pre Season helps with that but he doesn't have that. Besides you forget he's having to do this while also having a heavily dense fixture list and playing every 3 days.
 
devilsadvoca8 said:
Generally for fitness but not just that with new managers. They need to assess the squad and know what they are dealing with. Pre Season helps with that but he doesn't have that. Besides you forget he's having to do this while also having a heavily dense fixture list and playing every 3 days.
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This doesn't make any sense. Which manager has ever done this? Its not a thing. Its some kind of fan theory nonsense. He can figure out the players without having to try a million combinations
 
Manager has explained 1) getting to know his team 2) some players are not able to play full 90 minutes.
 
Do we not need a cup team and a Premier league team over the next few month or two to get some stability, we have enough depth to qualify through the europa league first phase.
 
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