How was that goal disallowed? Was it Rashford‘s foot that wasn’t interfering that ruled it out?
Ronaldo doesn’t press and positions himself wrong to open up the midfield
- Thread starter Bebestation
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This.
J Wilson in the guardian making it all about ronaldo as well its pathetic.
It's all on the manager.
It's all on the manager.
This. 100%
We have been leaking chances for fun forever under Ole. When Ole's key defensive players like Maguire, Shaw, AWB, McFred (McTominay for more specific) struggling for form, it becomes much more obvious since there is no individual excellence to paper over the cracks over flawed system.
It's rich for some posters to keep singling out individual players, but failing to acknowledge that by scapegoating players after player, there is no player left without any fault. So much for overhaul deadwood and squad building if those same posters using that that approach to absolve Ole of his failure as the manager and the coach.
Youtube teaches me all kinds of things lately:
1. Ghosts are real.
2. So is Vampires.
3. Street fighter are racist game.
4. Ronaldo is at fault for making us bad.
I feel like a genius.
1. Ghosts are real.
2. So is Vampires.
3. Street fighter are racist game.
4. Ronaldo is at fault for making us bad.
I feel like a genius.
I don't disagree with anything you've said, but I think it's less about Ronaldo and more the application of him. While he's obviously not at his peak he can still be very effective, and like everything in football you can do anything as long as you tailor the team tactically for balance. I do think it's very noticeable how little Ronaldo does on this front, but it wouldn't have been as much as a problem if your team was set up to accommodate this, rather than the weird Frankenstein like performance yesterday where your players were half heartedly pressing, or pressing overzealously at the wrong time, or doing so completely out of tandem, meaning that the team was disjointed and the backline was often out of shape (at times hilariously so). If you're going to have someone playing his role, the rest of the gameplan needs to be tailored with it in mind.
Also their (the video) bit at the end about Ings I disagree with. He's good at pressing, this season Villa have struggled with getting the right set up and the team working in harmony, but Ings has always been good at this facet of the game, Watkins is struggling this season too in this department and he's brilliant at pressing.
I think the Liverpool game was compounded by Maguire's injury, before then the defense had been ok in terms of goals conceded in the run up to that game, and the sudden loss of Maguire was felt pretty keenly, both in terms of his defensive ability on the pitch and his organisational skills (which is weird to say after yesterday). Doesn't really matter because I fully agree with the point you're making.
Also their (the video) bit at the end about Ings I disagree with. He's good at pressing, this season Villa have struggled with getting the right set up and the team working in harmony, but Ings has always been good at this facet of the game, Watkins is struggling this season too in this department and he's brilliant at pressing.
I think the Liverpool game was compounded by Maguire's injury, before then the defense had been ok in terms of goals conceded in the run up to that game, and the sudden loss of Maguire was felt pretty keenly, both in terms of his defensive ability on the pitch and his organisational skills (which is weird to say after yesterday). Doesn't really matter because I fully agree with the point you're making.
Yeah thought the same.
I can't agree. When handling a team of people the worst thing you can do is focus on trying to improve their weaknesses rather than focus on honing their strengths. Acting as if Ronaldo has something to do with how bad this team performs is like trying to ignore that the streets of Oslo have suddenly been infested with elephants.
The thing is I'm totally willing to accept Ronaldo could be the issue, maybe we just don't have the team capable to support him, or maybe he's lost a bit. But when you sign 3 world class players in the summer and none of them are performing to that level, then you have players like Maguire and pogba who regularly perform well at an international level, but poorly at club level, at a certain point you have to say that it's far more likely it's an issue with the manager, rather than all these players having declined the moment they put on a united shirt
1. Ronaldo never press during his first stint here, nor does he press during his time in Real. Everyone knows it, except you maybe.
2. We are never a pressing team before Ronaldo came here. Is it first time you watch Man Utd? Rashford, Greenwood, Martial are not the type of players who press. Other than Cavani from last seson, only Lingard press years before, but he used to be our most hated player as he does nothing other than pressing.
3. McFred is shite midfield pairs regardless
4. Our back four has been shambolic, and this has nothing to do with pressing work from our no.9 from the other end. They just keep making errors inside their own area, and couldn’t defend to save their own arse.
5. Its funny that previous season we need McFred to protect our back four to prevent leaking goals, now we need our no.9 to protect McFred and back four from leaking goals. What next? Set up our team like Southgate England with 7 defensive players in the pitch, plus defensive AM and defensive winger?
2. We are never a pressing team before Ronaldo came here. Is it first time you watch Man Utd? Rashford, Greenwood, Martial are not the type of players who press. Other than Cavani from last seson, only Lingard press years before, but he used to be our most hated player as he does nothing other than pressing.
3. McFred is shite midfield pairs regardless
4. Our back four has been shambolic, and this has nothing to do with pressing work from our no.9 from the other end. They just keep making errors inside their own area, and couldn’t defend to save their own arse.
5. Its funny that previous season we need McFred to protect our back four to prevent leaking goals, now we need our no.9 to protect McFred and back four from leaking goals. What next? Set up our team like Southgate England with 7 defensive players in the pitch, plus defensive AM and defensive winger?
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Some of those players are not worthy of being on the same pitch as Ronaldo, nuff said.
Good point, I think I didn't make the distinction clear in my post.
Obviously, Pogba does quite a bit of running and is quite physical. He's just not very good (by his own admission) in defensive tackles. That's why you pair him up with a Fabinho or a Herrera, who do that for him. I actually think if Bruno was told to be more disciplined, then we'd be better in midfield defensively.
Pogba can still win the ball in the middle of the pitch but you certainly don't sub him on to protect the score.
It's not Ronaldo's fault. Stop this shite. Last season we came back from a goal or two down a billion times, shit at home and the stadiums were empty! You'd think we were some team going guns blazing every time till Ronaldo sucked it all up. Don't get me more angry than I am after losing to those cnuts. We have been shite before and since Ole took over and a few turn around wins here and there masked how inefficient we are as a team. Shite in the league, was shite in the UCL, Europa, the EFL and every other tournament we found ourselves and this season, rinse repeat. We were never on the up. We told ourselves that to overlook how terrible we were progressing as a team under the inept manager that is Solksjaer.
Blaming Ronaldo for the teams poor performances is a very poor excuse indeed. He says that his job is to score goals and that he has been doing.
The person who is definitely to blame is of course the manager. It is up to him to set his team up to make the best use of the whole squad.
I listened to Tuchal a few days ago. And he said his number 1 job was to find solutions to problems. Because every team has problems.
Unfortunately, Ole doesn't even understand the effect, let alone the cause.
And he is not going to change because he is trying to operate at a level way above his capability.
Yeah let‘s blame Ronaldo for the shortcomings of our awful manager.
The buck starts and stops with the manager.
The buck starts and stops with the manager.
Not this shit again. We have been embarrassingly bad in pressing for ages now. It certainly didn't start with CR7. It all goes back to coaching.
Sorry but It's such a superficial assessment and one that seems to being used to explain away people missing last years tactical issues or Ole's incompetence. In a lot of teams including pressing teams the striker is not some madman running around pressing. This is caf fiction.
For a start in those that do you need both wide players to press otherwise it's completely redundant anyway. So Ronaldo running around does not fix this structural problem.
Our 3 behind Ronaldo should be narrower and they should force the ball wide but we prefer to keep them wide, creating bigger gaps.
For a start in those that do you need both wide players to press otherwise it's completely redundant anyway. So Ronaldo running around does not fix this structural problem.
Our 3 behind Ronaldo should be narrower and they should force the ball wide but we prefer to keep them wide, creating bigger gaps.
Mind boggling.
In term of goal conceded, we looked good while Maguire was available and in form; but performance wise, we were not formidable defensively as result showed. Still plenty of game against decent sides in the second half of the season where we conceding chances to opponent for fun in all competition. Milan at home. Against Roma. Even Real Soceidad if not for lack of clinical finishing, didn't lack chances to change the look of the scoreline. Two games vs Everton, in the league and in the Cup were both kinda end to end stuffs. Lost convincingly to Leicester twice. Even when we beat an out of form Liverpool in the Cup, we were there for them to take.
Look at last season as a whole, especially compounding on top of first half of the season where Maguire and Shaw were out of form which we looked as dogshit defensively as right now (much lucky in term of result), overall we had as many shaky games as we did with our better ones. That's not a good sign for team with ambition to challenge for top trophy. You either have good control over the game in term of pressing, possession or containing via conventional defending. So we're just the same in term of shakiness defensively. It's easier to blame DDG and Lindelof back then, but with Varane and DDG back into form, people start to see through the excuse of lack of dominant defensive midfielder.
Imagine thinking that Ronaldo "positions himself wrong" - the guy is one of the best in the business when it comes to movement and positioning.
Think, Ronaldo is not the main problem but him coming has added another problem like side quest in an open world game like red dead or GTA.
Main problem is the way the midfield and defense play and that Ronaldo doesn't take part in tracking back or pressing adds more pressure.
He can score goals every other game as we have decent front players but we will probably start leaking more goals as he is static.
The another problem is however his coordination with greenwood. It looks like Mason is not very happy playing with Ronaldo.
Main problem is the way the midfield and defense play and that Ronaldo doesn't take part in tracking back or pressing adds more pressure.
He can score goals every other game as we have decent front players but we will probably start leaking more goals as he is static.
The another problem is however his coordination with greenwood. It looks like Mason is not very happy playing with Ronaldo.
This whole Ronaldo controversy is so annoyingly binary. It’s all his fault. No it isn’t. It’s all the managers/Maguire’s/Shaw’s fault etc etc etc. The problems started when we signed Ronaldo! No! They were always here!
I think it’s perfectly plausible that we’ve been shite under Ole for ages, that we’ve a load of players playing badly this season AND trying to bed a 36 year old prima donna into a deeply dysfunctional team is making things worse instead of better.
I think it’s perfectly plausible that we’ve been shite under Ole for ages, that we’ve a load of players playing badly this season AND trying to bed a 36 year old prima donna into a deeply dysfunctional team is making things worse instead of better.
Yeah obviously this is just body language but it does seem that way regarding Mason and Ronnie. Doesn’t seem to want to play the Rooney/Tevez role for him and put in the hard yards for the team. Good man-management can only go so far. A cnut like Conte would drop one and that’d be the end of it. Ole probably wants to keep everyone happy but ends up with a crippling, dysfunctional team.
I agree with everything you’ve written, though we probably differ on the importance of Maguire. While he’s not perfect, I think he’s been noticeably better than your other CBs since his arrival. Last season for the PFA team of the year a lot on here argued that Maguire should have been in the team, and while I disagreed I didn't think they were crazy shouts or anything. I think he's had a very heavy schedule over the last couple seasons, and at the moment he looks mentally shocked and was rushed back from injury. I think a fully fit Maguire with a little rest is a different player.
I agree with what you're saying though, there's obviously tactical issues which is leading to issues all over the pitch, and this is the main crux of the issue and has been for some time, even while results and comebacks were papering over things. As for the last bolded part, I'm not sure where this forum stands on them as a consensus atm, but a midfield duo of McTominay and Fred does come with certain issues, it's not even so much not being dominant defensive midfielders but if you're going to play those two you'll have to take their weaknesses into account.
We never really pressed as a team properly before CR7 came so this all seems a bit silly. He is far from the issue of not being able to keep a clean sheet, and the defense and midfield not being able to handle any team that presses them in a coordinated fashion
Ultimately, we were 2v4 in the midfield. Yes Ronaldo tracking their DM (Henderson / Milner) and cutting off the passing angle to him would be a way to add a body in the midfield but do you really want to do that? If so, newsflash, none of the best forwards in the game really do that (Haaland, Lewa, Mbappe, Neymar, Messi etc. etc.). To Ronaldo's credit, once he realized that he failed to cut off the pass to DM he would track back and defend.
Maguire, Lindelof wouldn't step up from their defensive line, they're comfortable there. Firmino dropped into midfield as false 9 with Keita, Henderson and Milner effectively making 4 against Fred / McT. Bruno was being his usual headless chicken self and chasing the CBs, wing backs, whoever had the ball.
Ultimately it comes down again to Ole / team not knowing how to set up a pressing system.
Maguire, Lindelof wouldn't step up from their defensive line, they're comfortable there. Firmino dropped into midfield as false 9 with Keita, Henderson and Milner effectively making 4 against Fred / McT. Bruno was being his usual headless chicken self and chasing the CBs, wing backs, whoever had the ball.
Ultimately it comes down again to Ole / team not knowing how to set up a pressing system.
Tifo videos really need to feck off.
Club brought in a player who doesn't suit the type of play the manager wanted. If he wasn't Ronaldo I think people would be more critical of the acquisition.
That said, the manager isn't adapting his style to the tools he has, which is exacerbating the problem. And this isn't the only issue with Utd at present, it's part of the overall larger set of issues.
That said, the manager isn't adapting his style to the tools he has, which is exacerbating the problem. And this isn't the only issue with Utd at present, it's part of the overall larger set of issues.
I love that people can try and pin our atrocious defending on our centre forward. If Ronaldo not pressing is the issue (at 36!) then we're playing the wrong bloody system. Particularly as Rashford and Greenwood are both pretty average/bad at it as well.
If you want to press, pick players who are good at pressing. If you want to play the players who aren't good at pressing then play a more direct, counter attacking style. It's not rocket science.
If you want to press, pick players who are good at pressing. If you want to play the players who aren't good at pressing then play a more direct, counter attacking style. It's not rocket science.
the entire teams positioning has been bad going back to Jose. LVG set us up positionally well but football was horrendous. It's a fundamental issue. Players can only play as much as they are coached, you can have insane ability but if you are not coached into playing as a team and know where when and how your team mates move nothing is going to happen.
You can see the pattern in our goals. There is not cohesion or pattern in how and when we score. Usually it's individual play or Bruno. A coaching team + Manager needs to know how to setup the team knowing what the players can and cannot do.
You can see the pattern in our goals. There is not cohesion or pattern in how and when we score. Usually it's individual play or Bruno. A coaching team + Manager needs to know how to setup the team knowing what the players can and cannot do.
I think the lack of collective teamwork/pressing is exposing the negatives around Ronaldo too much. In a properly drilled/coached team with collectively good press, I believe fitting in Ronaldo is not an issue.
I wonder how well these "fantastic" Ole transfers will be viewed in a few years time.
I wonder how well these "fantastic" Ole transfers will be viewed in a few years time.
It's tactic. Ole trying to fit in all these attackers without balance. The way Ronaldo plays no 9 beside the final phase of attack is more like someone like Henry. He likes to drift to wide area, to lose the CB marking. Which means it's perfectly fine to give Greenwood a role of CF like what Wenger did with Henry and young RvP. Ole instead shunt Greenwood outwide, negating to a certain extend his forward ability, while leaving AWB to cover the entirely flank, which he can't.
For a 4-3-3 and it's variation in the midfield, you must have great full backs who can cover the flanks. One may not be as great attacking wise, but he can at least not trembling when receiving passes like AWB. Trying to play Ronaldo more rigidly in the front 3, with 2 wide forwards, adding to Bruno who is given freedom instead of playing as midfielder just further unbalancing the team. Yes the team was unbalanced before Ronaldo.
Ronaldo arrival compounded the issue (while solving a big issue elsewhere), but he's not the issue itself. The issue itself is lack of tactic and good coaching.
Ronaldo even at his best was like this. He's always lacking in term of contribution in defensive duty, but his great managers didn't have issue with it as his key contribution elsewhere matters much more in the bigger picture. Static is the never word to associated with Ronaldo. If he's static, then 90% of CF would be would be stature. He is as alive as everyone in attacking phase. He's more focusing in movement off the ball, and picking moment now than picking up the ball and dribbling like in the past.
Selective stats at its best right now to blame Ronaldo. He would be ranked similar even in his peak if you look at pressing stats. They however conveniently not mentioning distance covered, print number stats, which would easily distinct a lazy forward if they don't believe in the eye test (see Martial case)
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Look at these pressure stats
Rashford
Greenwood
Let's compare them with players who are part of a team that plays a similar formation to United
Sane
Gnabry
Ronaldo will never work with Greenwood and Rashford but both need to up their work rate regardless of the striker they're playing with because these stats for such young players are abysmal and hurting the team.
Rashford
Greenwood
Let's compare them with players who are part of a team that plays a similar formation to United
Sane
Gnabry
Ronaldo will never work with Greenwood and Rashford but both need to up their work rate regardless of the striker they're playing with because these stats for such young players are abysmal and hurting the team.
Football players are instructed by managers to play in a particular way and in a particular position.
If the results are not as intended, the conclusions are rather simple:
- player is not good enough/doesn't listen to the coach
- coach's instructions were poor
This is not another let's bash Ole post, but I think Ronaldo can follow some simple instructions he's given, considering he played 1K+ games in his career.
If the results are not as intended, the conclusions are rather simple:
- player is not good enough/doesn't listen to the coach
- coach's instructions were poor
This is not another let's bash Ole post, but I think Ronaldo can follow some simple instructions he's given, considering he played 1K+ games in his career.
Just my 2 cents.
If anyone has been paying attention to how football evolved in the last ten years then they'd notice the pure poachers are basically extinct. A central forward now generally is tasked with much more than just scoring. And they're critical in basically any team that want to employ the modern approach. Basically no top team in Europe plays with a pure poacher anymore. Even Chelsea fans are having a discussion wherether signing Lukaku is a good idea. And Lukaku does press and run much more than Ronaldo.
Many here want us to embrace the current modern football, and yet many wish us to keep a 37 yo pure poacher. Worse thing some even expect us to make that pure poacher thrives in a modern system. That's simply not gonna work guys.
If anyone has been paying attention to how football evolved in the last ten years then they'd notice the pure poachers are basically extinct. A central forward now generally is tasked with much more than just scoring. And they're critical in basically any team that want to employ the modern approach. Basically no top team in Europe plays with a pure poacher anymore. Even Chelsea fans are having a discussion wherether signing Lukaku is a good idea. And Lukaku does press and run much more than Ronaldo.
Many here want us to embrace the current modern football, and yet many wish us to keep a 37 yo pure poacher. Worse thing some even expect us to make that pure poacher thrives in a modern system. That's simply not gonna work guys.
I'm still surprised the lads at Tifo are still fecking about on YouTube when they could be managing PL football clubs and raking in millions.
Thanks for this stats.Look at these pressure stats
Rashford
Greenwood
Let's compare them with players who are part of a team that plays a similar formation to United
Sane
Gnabry
Ronaldo will never work with Greenwood and Rashford but both need to up their work rate regardless of the striker they're playing with because these stats for such young players are abysmal and hurting the team.
It shows what I wrote a post above.
We have an unbalanced team. More shoot first forwards than providing forwards, and to make matter worse, Ole decided to fit them all in when fit on top of a bad midfield and wip defense.
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Ronaldo fanboys in full defense mode. 
Great video. Don't know why people keep saying "Ronaldo isn't the issue" etc, of course he isn't one player can't be the sole reason, but he is a decent part of it. No amount of stats can change that, I know "Stat Andies" will come full force with numbers.
Great video. Don't know why people keep saying "Ronaldo isn't the issue" etc, of course he isn't one player can't be the sole reason, but he is a decent part of it. No amount of stats can change that, I know "Stat Andies" will come full force with numbers.
We are not in 2010 but in 2021 when opponents work differently. Yes, individual quality still decides matches - but it is a connection between team effort and this indivual quality that is important to really be the deal. Problem is that at the end you look at all this superstars and if they make their goals all is fine and they are the heroes. Nobody then really values if they do something for the team effort or not.
OP didn't blame Ronaldo. Just pointed out his unwillingness to press is a weakness, which is true. Some of you act like a bunch of weirdos when a player you like is criticized.