Road Trip Draft II 1st Round: GSTQ vs Gio

[Synco]

I want him to be ready to pounce on space when Passarella is caught out of position. He is way more valuable there for me considering my midfield already has more workrate than the opposition's.

That move makes sense, but how often will Passarella really go gung-ho in one game? (Tbh, I've never been too convinced by this argumentation about liberos.) Müller could still react in those instances and move into these positions, he had the nose for it. I don't see a real need to limit his overall role (especially defensively) in order to catch out Passarella.

Spoiler

Just as a perhaps interesting aside: When Bayern speculated on the opponent being too open, they sometimes chose the more pacy Hoeneß to exploit that. Examples I can think of are the 1973 away game against Dresden and the 1974 final replay against Atletico. From what I've seen, it was a classic Bayern move in the mid-70s.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

That move makes sense, but how often will Passarella really go gung-ho in one game? (Tbh, I've never been too convinced by this argumentation about liberos.) Müller could still react in those instances and move into these positions, he had the nose for it. I don't see a real need to limit his overall role (especially defensively) in order to catch out Passarella.

Spoiler

Just as a perhaps interesting aside: When Bayern speculated on the opponent being too open, they sometimes chose the more pacy Hoeneß to exploit that. Examples I can think of are the 1973 away game against Dresden and the 1974 final replay against Atletico. From what I've seen, it was a classic Bayern move in the mid-70s.

Yea, you are right. Depends on how often Passarella goes gung ho and Muller might as well have opportunities to contribute more deeper. I just didn't give it too much thought and kept it simple assuming Passarella will be given a lot of freedom by Gio

 

[harms]

Didn't know Paul Mcgrath was 5'5

Feck am taller than him

And can we stop using 5'5? Chumpitaz was 1.71 m which is a bit more than 5'7 FFS

Most sources that I’ve seen have him on 168cm. It’s always a problem, I don’t think that there’s a reliable database on players height.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Most sources that I’ve seen have him on 168cm. It’s always a problem, I don’t think that there’s a reliable database on players height.

Hmm, pes stats does say 168. Maybe can compare height alongside some other players in pictures.

That is him with Cruyff who was 5'10. He doesn't look 5 inches shorter to me.

 

[harms]

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

I look at both of those images and don't have an answer to give

 

[Jim Beam]

I look at both of those images and don't have an answer to give

Pictures can be deceiving.

Spoiler

 

[harms]

I look at both of those images and don't have an answer to give

As someone who works with photography for a living, the first one is shit for establishing height because of the point of view. There’s another one with Cruyff from above, which is also not ideal, where Cruyff looks significantly higher.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Pictures can be deceiving.

Spoiler

I'll watch some footage and compare though on Monday when am back on my laptop. This needs to be sorted out

 

[Gio]

That move makes sense, but how often will Passarella really go gung-ho in one game? (Tbh, I've never been too convinced by this argumentation about liberos.) Müller could still react in those instances and move into these positions, he had the nose for it. I don't see a real need to limit his overall role (especially defensively) in order to catch out Passarella.

Spoiler

Just as a perhaps interesting aside: When Bayern speculated on the opponent being too open, they sometimes chose the more pacy Hoeneß to exploit that. Examples I can think of are the 1973 away game against Dresden and the 1974 final replay against Atletico. From what I've seen, it was a classic Bayern move in the mid-70s.

It's a bit silly though when you have a player of Passarella's calibre seen as a frequent liability because he dared to venture forward from time to time. In the current game his overall contribution on and off the ball would make him the most prized defender by a country mile.

 

[Physiocrat]

I'm going for a score draw here. Both teams are very well crafted and will score.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

As someone who works with photography for a living, the first one is shit for establishing height because of the point of view. There’s another one with Cruyff from above, which is also not ideal, where Cruyff looks significantly higher.

I'll take your word for it as I am as ignorant as anyone else on the subject.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

It's a bit silly though when you have a player of Passarella's calibre seen as a frequent liability because he dared to venture forward from time to time. In the current game his overall contribution on and off the ball would make him the most prized defender by a country mile.

I wanted to post this after the game but I think playing Hierro as a full-time CB and Passarella as a DM cum libero in the midfield would have been better. Briegel doesn't end up in a soup, Hierro stays away from Cruyff and Passarella sticks to him full time off the ball.

I suggested this role for Passarella once to @2mufc0 too in one of his games when he faced Cruyff.

 

[Gio]

I wanted to post this after the game but I think playing Hierro as a full-time CB and Passarella as a DM cum libero in the midfield would have been better. Briegel doesn't end up in a soup, Hierro stays away from Cruyff and Passarella sticks to him full time off the ball.

I suggested this role for Passarella once to @2mufc0 too in one of his games when he faced Cruyff.

Yeah, it's a fair shout. Briegel is never in a soup though - his role is very straight forward.

 

[Physiocrat]

Good game lads.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Good game @Gio . Enjoyed the discussion as always.

Really bad draw for the both of us to be honest.

Good game lads.

Cheers mate. Nice to and fro all along.

 

[harms]

I've changed my opinion as the game went — originally I was going to go for Gio, but opted for a draw instead (as the whole Chumpitaz/crosses thing stopped me from going with GSTQ). Good game, both sides were unlucky to face such an opponent this early.

 

[Physiocrat]

Even though I went for a draw I think it was very well setup for Passarella. I don't see much of an issue for Breigel as if Hierro drops in it's a back 4 with the ball or at worst a back 3 if Zanetti moves into midfield. I would further say you don't need Hierro to drop in to make a back 3 with the ball, Zanetti is balanced so Hierro in front of Briegel and Bergomi is fine. When the ball turns over then Hierro can go to CB to allow Breigel to go to LB proper but that's about it IMO.

In general people think that a libero is much more suspect on the counter than an attacking full back and I just don't see it

The issue with Hierro here was just his lack of mobility, not about his positioning relative to Passarella

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

The issue with Hierro here was just his lack of mobility

Sometimes, I feel too much is being made of this. There are lots of examples of top defenders/defensive midfielders with lack of pace. Positional intelligence, reading of the game beats pace every time and Hierro had lots of it. Unless there is a instruction for Hierro to man-mark a tricky dribbler, I don't think his "lack of mobility" should be a factor.

 

[Physiocrat]

Sometimes, I feel too much is being made of this. There are lots of examples of top defenders/defensive midfielders with lack of pace. Positional intelligence, reading of the game beats pace every time and Hierro had lots of it. Unless there is a instruction for Hierro to man-mark a tricky dribbler, I don't think his "lack of mobility" should be a factor.

I mostly agree with that, it is more being up against Cruyff. I think GSTQ's point about reactive and proactive players is pertinent

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

I think GSTQ's point about reactive and proactive players is pertinent

Didn't want to influence the game, but honestly I thought that was a load of crap. A player who reads the game well is in a position to place himself in the right area to intercept or block a pass before it's made is as predictive as you can get. Calling that a "reactive" attribute is just nonsense.

Maldini's "If I have to make a tackle then I have already made a mistake" is a perfect quote for this. A reactive player is one who relies on pace and tackles to defend. A proactive player relies in intelligence, positioning and reading of game to cut off passing. I recall a video of Gary Neville explaining Carrick's positioning and reading of the game and how cuts off so many attacks from developing that is brilliant to watch. Hierro fits well into that category.

 

[Gio]

Good game @Gio . Enjoyed the discussion as always.

Really bad draw for the both of us to be honest.



Cheers mate. Nice to and fro all along.

And you.

You drafted well, capitalised on the best talent in Holland and Germany and used the FIT card at the right time. Personally happy with what I drafted. Hierro up against Cruyff was a little unfortunate, but when you go for a proactive 4-3-3 based around a strong midfield, it always had to be a progressive player there rather than a grizzly little man-marker.

 

[Physiocrat]

And you.

You drafted well, capitalised on the best talent in Holland and Germany and used the FIT card at the right time. Personally happy with what I drafted. Hierro up against Cruyff was a little unfortunate, but when you go for a proactive 4-3-3 based around a strong midfield, it always had to be a progressive player there rather than a grizzly little man-marker.

In retrospect Stielike would have been a better Spain pick IMO

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

And you.

You drafted well, capitalised on the best talent in Holland and Germany and used the FIT card at the right time. Personally happy with what I drafted. Hierro up against Cruyff was a little unfortunate, but when you go for a proactive 4-3-3 based around a strong midfield, it always had to be a progressive player there rather than a grizzly little man-marker.

Cheers mate.

 

[Gio]

In retrospect Stielike would have been a better Spain pick IMO

Aye. He was top of my list as he’d be a cracking fit but was seduced by Hierro’s superior all round game.

 

[Jim Beam]

About that FIT card though... Give me Zito!!
What's even more annoying, Indy won't play Socrates in his match most likely.

Don't bother, jast talking to myself a bit...

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

About that FIT card though... Give me Zito!!
What's even more annoying, Indy won't play Socrates in his match most likely.

Don't bother, jast talking to myself a bit...

 

[Pat_Mustard]

I'm going for a score draw here. Both teams are very well crafted and will score.

Aye, followed the thread with interest but ultimately couldn't split the teams myself. That was a good debate between the managers with some interesting details getting teased out. Well played @GodShaveTheQueen and @Gio .

 

[Synco]

It's a bit silly though when you have a player of Passarella's calibre seen as a frequent liability because he dared to venture forward from time to time. In the current game his overall contribution on and off the ball would make him the most prized defender by a country mile.

As I said in that post, I'm not really buying into that "liberos are liabilities" stuff. It can make sense to keep a player close to the offside line for potential counters, but I personally wouldn't have done that here for a number of reasons.

In my book, elite liberos were competent readers of the game and looked for the right situations to push up. My historical football knowledge is limited, but I suspect there's a bit of a myth going on about liberos and constant attacking runs. (Not meaning anyone here, just in general.) I wrote this on Beckenbauer a few weeks ago:

His spectacular B2B runs have become somewhat symbolic for his offensive repertoire, but too much in my eyes. I think it overshadows the fact that (in his libero days) he operated as an organizer from deep way more often than as an attacking player.

I've recently watched Passarella in a Superclásico where the same applies. He was quite disciplined & restrained, and mostly played opening passes without venturing forward too much, exception being set pieces.