Riquelme deal sorted

[Dans]

Originally posted by lchk:
<strong>But if we declare ourselves as an elite, we should be at least making some serious bids or attempts to sign these players. And having some success in doing so.</strong><hr></blockquote>

More tosh. Ever stopped to think that Ferguson doesn't want them? You won't be satisfied until United start releasing press releases stating the reasons for not being interested in these potential future stars will you?

 

[lchk]

Originally posted by Murt:
<strong>

What the fuch does anyone here know about either of these two? That they have nice hair cuts and look good in blue? Have you ever seen them play? Bear in mind that their are literally 1000's of promising players in the world and 1000's of clubs chasing them. Every single player that pops up your expecting us to sign and disappointed when we dont sign him. I cant figure out how your a Utd fan, you dont seem to like anything about Man utd</strong><hr></blockquote>

You are truly a great exaggerator aren't you?
When did I ever say we should sign every rising star in the world? Naturally there are some players that we missed out which have disappointed some of us but maybe you think our transfer and scouting policy is perfect.

Basically, in your mind, no criticism of Utd is ever allowed, certainly not from a fellow fan and all messages in this forum has to be sugar-coated.

Yes, I do like Utd but I also know we have faults and I express my opinions on what I believe is a weakness. You on the other hand refuse to acknowledge that we have problem areas and insist that the sun is ever-shining on OT.

<strong>

He impressed no one in the World cup, Liverpool are welcome to him, hes the next Guivarch
</strong><hr></blockquote>

I see you haven't said anything about Mexes.
So if you think Cisse is so shite, who would you prefer as our fourth striker?

<strong>

"Bargain buys anf buying stars", do you think that their is a super store somewhere with players lined up on shelves. 3 or 4 times a yr they have a seasonal sale and sell all these stars on the cheap. </strong><hr></blockquote>

That's what we have been doing from 1990 to 1999.
It's called a transfer policy, not some grocery list.

<strong>

Melllberg is one of 1000's of decent defenders, Aston Villa standard but not Man utd standard
</strong><hr></blockquote>

I happen to think he would offer us quality service at the centre or right side of defence. Of course opinions differ here.

<strong>

He cant even get into the swedish central defensive position. I think your on your own in regretting not signing him
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Then why is he in the swedish national first team?

<strong>

Sharpe, Johnsen, Solskjaer, Sheringham, Fortune, Bosnich, Forlan, Keane, Carroll, Silvestre,
</strong><hr></blockquote>

My point of concern is post-1999, younger players. Keane and co are way back. Fortune? Looks like Fergie doesn't even want to keep him. Would you say that he has been great for us?
Bosnich? Obviously Fergie had other ideas. Mickey? A lot of us still have serious doubts about his capabilities to actually defend. Moreover, he has attitude problems about wanting to play in central defence. Forlan? He hasn't exactly set the world alight at OT has he? Or even scored a goal? Well, he deserves the benefit of the doubt for the time being.

Carroll is one player I would think have shown some promise so yes I agree with you on him. Still no great shakes though.

<strong>

Perhaps you could name for me some of the cheap Maradonna Arsenal & Liverpool have signed over the past two yrs, like what i asked you to do a month ago
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Arsenal - Pires, Anelka
Pool - Hyppia, Babbel, Hamman.

 

[lchk]

Originally posted by Dans:
<strong>

More tosh. Ever stopped to think that Ferguson doesn't want them? You won't be satisfied until United start releasing press releases stating the reasons for not being interested in these potential future stars will you?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Judging by what you said, I pressume we have such "great" stars in our youth teams that the loss of johnsen and irwin and a possible retirement of blanc would pose no problems whatsoever for us?

 

[kemo]

Hyypai is the only bargain you have mentioned.

Hamann was always good just not combatative enough to suit Fergie's idea of a defensive midfield. (Just compare him to Keano, Butt or Ince)

Babbel rejected Fergie aproaches twice. Even in the year we won the treble. He was always a scouser.

Pires rejectd Real to join Arsenal. It is clear he was alaways their fan. And he to wa salways good.
Vierra came to Arsenal when Butt, Beks and Schoels had just broken into our team. I beleive they where even cehaoer than him. Don't you?

After that. Who really has been a bargain. Only Van Nistelrooy. and Hyypia.
We should have paid 50m pounds for Van the man.

 

[Wan]

it is only June Ichk..

 

[Dans]

Originally posted by lchk:
<strong>

Judging by what you said, I pressume we have such "great" stars in our youth teams that the loss of johnsen and irwin and a possible retirement of blanc would pose no problems whatsoever for us?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Whatever gave you that impression? I wasn't commenting on our squad, I was commenting on you.

 

[Raoul]

Originally posted by lchk:
<strong>

Arsenal - Pires, Anelka
Pool - Hyppia, Babbel, Hamman.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Anelka is the only one of the above list who was young and look at him now. Fact is, Arsenal, Liverpool, United, Real Madrid etc - they all don't sign the best young starlets, but go for bigger name establish players first and allow the younger players to develop at 2nd rate clubs. That's the new model by which all big clubs will operate in the future. Internal youth systems will take a back seat to big name signings.

 

[antohan]

Originally posted by lchk:
<strong>Perhaps I am a little harsh on Forlan but 16 starts and no goals has already given the scousers something to poke fun at us.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

OK, so the moment the scousers are presented with a point to make against us you will turn against the player in question. fecking great supporter you are.

Furthermore, you want our scouts to spot future Maradona's well before the rest, i.e. prospects, or gambles -whatever the odds. Yet, you expect them to set the world alight immediately after they step into OT. Otherwise they are no good and the basis for scouser jokes so we should regret our gamble and get rid of him. I think it is people with the same mindset as you which are holding us back from exploring talent.

 

[Raoul]

BTW Ichk, give this Forlan bashing a rest shall we. You obviously haven't seen much of him pre-United, so you dont know what he's capable of.

 

[antohan]

Originally posted by lchk:
<strong>
Both of them haven't exactly ... set a few pulses racing have they?
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Wrong again, Taibi DID!

 

[giggzy]

forget pre united.. Forlan;s impressed me at OT!! great touch, good passing abilty and decent pace... he looks a good prospect.

 

[Raoul]

Originally posted by giggzy:
<strong>forget pre united.. Forlan;s impressed me at OT!! great touch, good passing abilty and decent pace... he looks a good prospect.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Not good enough for Panic Buyer. He wants more young, daftly cheap, previously unheard of players who score hat tricks every time out.

 

[kemo]

Forlan is the bomb imo. Next season when he scores more like the cracker vs the lions of teranga (a.ka.a Senegal) Europe will tremble <img src="graemlins/angel.gif" border="0" alt="[Angel]" />

 

[antohan]

Originally posted by Raoul:
<strong>

Not good enough for Panic Buyer. He wants more young, daftly cheap, previously unheard of players who score hat tricks every time out. </strong><hr></blockquote>

The exact description of Mario Habler, a young German prospect I picked up for 200K in the 97-98 season for Juventus. He scored over 150 goals over 3 seasons, including 7 in one game to Lazio.

CM2 of course. Never found one like him again

 

[ShAoLiN_ChRoNiC]

Originally posted by Raoul:
<strong>

Fact is, Arsenal, Liverpool, United, Real Madrid etc - they all don't sign the best young starlets, but go for bigger name establish players first and allow the younger players to develop at 2nd rate clubs.

Internal youth systems will take a back seat to big name signings.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Actually Liverpool and Arsenal sign very few big name players. Real Madrid have a recipe for success for the future which consists of world class superstars and home grown talent (about 50/50).

Youth systems taking a back seat will see the downfall of football so lets hope your wrong there (look at Italy).

As for Cisse and Mexes - these two are incredible players, I wont hear a bad thing about them. Both would be smash hits in any league in the world. And I HAVE seen them play. Mexes impresses me just as much if not more than Rio has these last few games. Think of Blanc with Rio's pace, strength and technical ability. This guy was flicking balls over sliding tackles and playing neat passes to midfield etc. Not showing off, but just mega-cool and collected. He has to come here, Rio or not, Mexes is "DA BOMB".

Cisse is just dynamite. You can see that in 10 seconds for France. He made an immediate impression where Trez and Henry were pathetically quiet. We're talking about Prem and Serie A top scorers made to look less than ordinary. I'm not judging from 10 seconds, but from those snippets for France you can see his potential and quality right away. Thats all you need to see.

Whats worrying is how easily we let players slip away. Ferdinand was available 18 months ago for half the price, Fergie was in for Joe Cole but we lost out there too, Thuram, Sol Campbell, Lizarazu etc etc.

It seems we can only sign players when they really have their heart set on here or no big teams are interested. I'm worried that we'll let Mexes and Cisse slip away too. Particularly to that fox Houllier. He signs his players much earlier than anyone else. By the time people were after Le Tallec and Pongolle, they were already under his thumb and deals were done. Same has happened with Diouf.

We have a good chance with Mexes, Guy Roux seems to want Mexes at OT. But Cisse looks dead in the water for some reason. We're not even mentioned in reports anymore.

 

[Raoul]

Originally posted by ShAoLiN_ChRoNiC:
<strong>

Actually Liverpool and Arsenal sign very few big name players. Real Madrid have a recipe for success for the future which consists of world class superstars and home grown talent (about 50/50).
</strong><hr></blockquote>

The point I was trying to make is that the likes of Henry, Pires etc weren't exactly unheard of young starlets. They were established players when they were bought by the Arse.

 

[giggzy]

well... Henry had a big rep before he went to Arsenal..many clubs chased after his signature including Real..but Juve won the race.

Pires was no spring chicken when Arsenal bought him... i think he's around 28 now... (????)


currently..others such as...Riquelme, D'allasandro, Saviola, Cisse etc have got great potential.. and most clubs around the world know this... for this reason, they won't come cheap....

 

[Murt]

Originally posted by lchk:
<strong>

Arsenal - Pires, Anelka
Pool - Hyppia, Babbel, Hamman.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Pires cost 10 million or so and was a world cup winner. Hardly an unknown rough diamond.

Anelka was good business for Arsenal, bad news for everyone else he went to. Solskjaer came to Man Utd around the same time as Anelka, who would you have preferred us to sign, Anelka or OGS?

Hyppia, similar signing to Ronny Johnsen just a yr or two later.

Babbel, again hardly an unknown, Man utd tried to sign him in 1998 (you probably missed this as you were a Gooner back then )or so but he refused as he wanted to go on a Bosman, Fergie snubbed him after that & rightly so.

Hamman, crap player, not Man Utd quality, came to Pool from Newcastle for 8 mill, not a rough diamond, no one shedded a tear when pool got him and ill be shedding tears if pool manage to get 10 million off Real for a player who makes David Batty's square balls look like 40 yard wing switching passes.


Face it inch, your in dreamland.

Your not expecting us to sign the 1000's of players that are available because you have that much of a grasp on reality that you know a squad of 50 or so is the limit. Still everytime someone else signs a half decent footballer like Mellberg (a centre back who Sweden deem to much of a pansy for the cb position) youcringe and wish we had signed him instead.
Stick to the Championship manager.

 

[giggzy]

[[Pool - Hyppia, Babbel, Hamman.]]

Hyypia yes... he has been a great purchase.. However, Babbel and Hamman are hardly top drawer and both have been German internationals for many years... only FOOL would class them as rough diamonds or world class players bought on the cheap...


sigh.

 

[lchk]

Originally posted by Murt:
<strong>

Pires cost 10 million or so and was a world cup winner. Hardly an unknown rough diamond.

Anelka was good business for Arsenal, bad news for everyone else he went to. Solskjaer came to Man Utd around the same time as Anelka, who would you have preferred us to sign, Anelka or OGS?

Hyppia, similar signing to Ronny Johnsen just a yr or two later.

Babbel, again hardly an unknown, Man utd tried to sign him in 1998 (you probably missed this as you were a Gooner back then )or so but he refused as he wanted to go on a Bosman, Fergie snubbed him after that & rightly so.

Hamman, crap player, not Man Utd quality, came to Pool from Newcastle for 8 mill, not a rough diamond, no one shedded a tear when pool got him and ill be shedding tears if pool manage to get 10 million off Real for a player who makes David Batty's square balls look like 40 yard wing switching passes.


Face it inch, your in dreamland.

Your not expecting us to sign the 1000's of players that are available because you have that much of a grasp on reality that you know a squad of 50 or so is the limit. Still everytime someone else signs a half decent footballer like Mellberg (a centre back who Sweden deem to much of a pansy for the cb position) youcringe and wish we had signed him instead.
Stick to the Championship manager.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I don't play CM murt so stop your annoying references to that number-crunching game

It's not just about unknown diamonds, look at the pongelle and le tallec examples - every coach heard about their abilities but that sly fox Houllier stepped in and snapped them up before we did. Fergie himself has stated that these are the two best young prospects in the world and he did make a move for them.

I am not saying we have never gone looking for new rising stars or more experienced players in the mould of a Hyppia who would shine at a bigger stage - like you mentioned, we have done that on several occasions with the purchases of Irwin, Solksjaer, Johnsen, Cantona too many to mention.

It's just that since the treble season we haven't been doing as well as we should be in acquiring starlets and bargains. Bear in mind that we have a restricted budget so we HAVE to play this promising youngster/bargain buy kind of game.

Hope you get my drift this time.

 

[lchk]

Originally posted by Raoul:
<strong>

Not good enough for Panic Buyer. He wants more young, daftly cheap, previously unheard of players who score hat tricks every time out. </strong><hr></blockquote>

Nonsense raoul

I just pointing out the fact that we haven't been as successful as pool for instance in building our squad with talented youth and cheaper players who turn out good.

Is there anything wrong with that?

 

[lchk]

Originally posted by giggzy:
<strong>forget pre united.. Forlan;s impressed me at OT!! great touch, good passing abilty and decent pace... he looks a good prospect.</strong><hr></blockquote>

What about the goals - the most important criteria for strikers?

You'll get the dippers laughing at you on this one

 

[lchk]

Originally posted by giggzy:
<strong>forget pre united.. Forlan;s impressed me at OT!! great touch, good passing abilty and decent pace... he looks a good prospect.</strong><hr></blockquote>

What about the goals - the most important criteria for strikers?

You'll get the dippers laughing at you on this one

 

[usual_suspect]

don't you think the fact houllier is french gave him a HUGE headstart on pongolle and le tallec? same thing applies to cisse and mexes...it's a lot easier to find players when they're playing in your backyard. if you're a young, french-speaking player, odds are you want to go somewhere where the manager speaks french. plus, in a lot of cases, it's not actual liverpool/arsenal scouts who reccomend players, but rather associates of the manager. look at diouf...he's @ lens, a club houllier used to manage, and who's current general manager was houllier's right-hand man up untill last year. obviously, houllier had the inside track. i think the hiring of the portuguese assistant manager is in part meant alleviate this problem...

 

[usual_suspect]

btw - just looking at the last 5 buys of ferguson, wenger, and houllier...

ferguson:
- forlan (7.5m)
- blanc (free)
- rvn (19m)*
- veron (28m)
- carroll (2.5m)
TOTAL = 57m


houllier:
- xavier (1m)
- baros (3.2m)
- dudek (4.8m)*
- kirkland (9m)
- riise (4m)*
TOTAL = 22m

wenger:
- wright (5m)
- inamoto (4m)
- jeffers (10m)
- van brockhorst (8.5m)
- campbell (free)*
TOTAL = 27.5m


106.5m = total spending last year

...the funny thing is, only 4 players in that entire list really played excelled this season(*), at a total cost of 27.8m! thus, the other 78.7m has yet to show a serious return on investment. kinda scary, don't ya think???

 

[usual_suspect]

...and as for riquelme, he would have never gotten a work permit to play in england.

 

[lchk]

Originally posted by usual_suspect:
<strong>don't you think the fact houllier is french gave him a HUGE headstart on pongolle and le tallec? same thing applies to cisse and mexes...it's a lot easier to find players when they're playing in your backyard. if you're a young, french-speaking player, odds are you want to go somewhere where the manager speaks french. plus, in a lot of cases, it's not actual liverpool/arsenal scouts who reccomend players, but rather associates of the manager. look at diouf...he's @ lens, a club houllier used to manage, and who's current general manager was houllier's right-hand man up untill last year. obviously, houllier had the inside track. i think the hiring of the portuguese assistant manager is in part meant alleviate this problem...</strong><hr></blockquote>

You are most certainly correct in your analysis.

Yes, queroz would be of great help in these matters

But it worryingly highlights the fact that our scouts and "associates" have not been too successful in this aspect have they?

 

[lchk]

Originally posted by usual_suspect:
<strong>btw - just looking at the last 5 buys of ferguson, wenger, and houllier...

ferguson:
- forlan (7.5m)
- blanc (free)
- rvn (19m)*
- veron (28m)
- carroll (2.5m)
TOTAL = 57m


houllier:
- xavier (1m)
- baros (3.2m)
- dudek (4.8m)*
- kirkland (9m)
- riise (4m)*
TOTAL = 22m

wenger:
- wright (5m)
- inamoto (4m)
- jeffers (10m)
- van brockhorst (8.5m)
- campbell (free)*
TOTAL = 27.5m


106.5m = total spending last year

...the funny thing is, only 4 players in that entire list really played excelled this season(*), at a total cost of 27.8m! thus, the other 78.7m has yet to show a serious return on investment. kinda scary, don't ya think???</strong><hr></blockquote>

Which goes to show that spending vast amounts of cash on players isn't enough

Mindset and ability to fit into the team is just as important as skills

 

[Wan]

Originally posted by lchk:
<strong>

What about the goals - the most important criteria for strikers?

You'll get the dippers laughing at you on this one</strong><hr></blockquote>

the goals will come...