Just because you're a good player doesn't mean you're a good coach.
What coaching credentials does he have?
Ridiculous. Rio commanded our backline for the majority of his career instructing inferior players on what to do and where to be etc. in near every game. He makes clear what errors other defenders are making whenever asked on BT sport.
He doesn't have to be an exceptional mind - he just needs to convey what needs to be done for each player (except Varane) to be better at what they do than they currently are.
I'd be curious to see what part of coaching Rio would fail at. He is consummate in what he did as a player, and what he says now when speaking about defending. No heart and passion nonsense, rather, clear, concise instructions and conveyance of thought.
so you're saying get Rene back?
No your first paragraph is way off. Scholes led by example not by instruction, constant hands on coddling throughout a game and certainly shows no capacity to put his thoughts across about midfield in the way Rio routinely does when talking about defence and defending. Rio will state exactly what's gone wrong in the defence from the first juncture to the last, and not only that, he will state what the remedy is at each interval as he's going along, not only displaying his understanding of defending, but on corrective measures to prevent those mistakes, which errs to coaching.All those things you say are true of Scholes, Keane, and all our other failed managers.
It's because he is so clear in what he would do in a situation that I doubt he has the flexibility to adapt to a player who is not him. Down to the details of how close to get to an attacker when defending, which is not going to be the same for every defender. He might want to be touch tight but another player might need 5 yards. Does he see that?
No, you are right when speaking about the specifics of each coach - I'm not arguing against that. What I am arguing against is the notion Rio would be a poor defensive coach when he's shown as a player and a pundit he is right on the money when it comes to seeing the problem and the fixes. He goes as far as to state where players should be to prevent the danger, which is elements of positioning, which the majority of our defenders are dire at. There are not many ex-players we've had who I think would be dab hands at coaching in their respective field, but Rio is about the A1 choice given his exemplary marshalling of inferior players and how he can break defending down to the minutiae as a pundit.Rangnick has brought in his own coaches because they are already familiar with his footballing philisophy, and the next manager will want to do the same. There are different ways of coaching a defence, different methods of defending. If Ten Hag is the next manager he will want coaches who are familiar with his own footballing philosophy so that they are teaching the players the right things to suit the playing style of the team. What does Rio have to do with Rangnick's or Ten Hag's footballing philosophy, that they would consider him over other coaches?
Why would he be perfect out of interest?
Or do you think every top player makes a top coach?
No, you are right when speaking about the specifics of each coach - I'm not arguing against that. What I am arguing against is the notion Rio would be a poor defensive coach when he's shown as a player and a pundit he is right on the money when it comes to seeing the problem and the fixes. He goes as far as to state where players should be to prevent the danger, which is elements of positioning, which the majority of our defenders are dire at. There are not many ex-players we've had who I think would be dab hands at coaching in their respective field, but Rio is about the A1 choice given his exemplary marshalling of inferior players and how he can break defending down to the minutiae as a pundit.
Keegan and daglish were definitely good coaches, just not world class like their playing daysDo world class players even make good coaches? Cruyff and Zidane did it, but very few others. Guardiola wasn't really world class was he? Keegan? Keene? Dalglish?
As far as blocks are concerned, Rio has experience in high lines as well as sitting much deeper for England, it's obviously conjecture to say he'd be seamless at coaching it in the modern game, but the notion some put forth of him being a simple mind or someone to summarily dismiss because he's shown nothing, or is like other former great players as a pundit, is not right. Rio was a defensive lynchpin just as much for his organisational skills and tutelage of those around him as he was for his own individual brilliance. What he says as a pundit and how he says it is a continuation of how he was out on the pitch, for me. He might speak in generic tones for the game as a whole, but he comes alive when talking about any aspect of defending. Granted your first paragraph states there's more to coaching than just that, but he's much further along the line in terms of actions as a player marrying with thoughts off the pitch than any other ex-United-turned-pundit, imo.You said the following: ''I'd be curious to see what part of coaching Rio would fail at.'' So I was trying to point out an area he might fail at were he to coach at united. It may be that he excels coaching burnley defenders in a low block, but fails when trying to coach defenders to play in a Pep, Klopp, Ten Hag, Rangnick system. There is more to coaching than watching match highlights and pointing out mistakes.
Would he succeed coaching defenders in a modern system, is he good at preparing defenders for the unique challenges faced by each opponent, is he good at adapting to the strengths and weaknesses of each defender? He hasn't demonstrated that he would excel at those things, he needs to take a coaching job and prove himself first, then we will know. You have described Rio as an ''A1 choice'' based on very little evidence.
Why would he be perfect out of interest?
Or do you think every top player makes a top coach?
Rio was a defensive lynchpin just as much for his organisational skills and tutelage of those around him as he was for his own individual brilliance.
Second paragraph's bolded: he exemplified this as a player, and until Vidic arrived, he had nobody on his level of understanding or organisation to help him marshall the backline. He made his full-back as well as defensive partners' lives as easy as they could be with how he aided them and their games;
but my point of view is coming from the credentials of a CB of his generation, who was a masterful organiser as a player
All of our midfielders must have been wearing earmuffs when Carrick was talking then!you could just as easily flip that....he doesn't have to be a good coach but he probably sees certain things that he could share with the players and help them out that a coach might not
when you're a guy that was as good as Rio or Vida, they have this natural instinct to read things that can't be taught but certainly can be passed along
So Rio had said that if Manchester United asked him, he would happily become a coach at the club.
This has got me thinking.
Given how bad our defending has been for years now, why haven't United reached out to Rio or Vidic even and got them in as defensive coaches?
It again seems shortsighted by the club to let such talents walk away and yet they hire a set piece coach who has a record of 100 plus set pieces and no goals.
His initial woes when being chided by Keane etc. and had concentration issues are not what he went on to become, which is why I stated at the point he went on to be world class; it wasn't just his individual game that went through the roof, but also his organisation and on the pitch nurturing of those around him. He was vital in developing our right full-backs as well as doing the best by/for his CB partner.You're stating this with such conviction but I never saw this at all in Rio's game. If anything, Rio struggled with his own concentration, let alone organising everyone else.
The pairings Rio had with Silvestre and Brown were extremely disorganised, lacked cohesion and were not at all solid. The strength of those defences was their athleticism to make up for poor positioning and lapses in concentration.
Similarly, Rio's partnership with Evans was also disorganised and significantly weaker than Vidic/Evans.
Based on the fact that Vidic/Rio was by far the most organised defence of Rio's United career, Vidic/Evans played the majority of the clean sheet record when Rio/Evans was poor and when Fergie chose Vidic as club captain ahead of Rio, is it not possible that Vidic was the one who organised the defence?
And maybe Rio talks a better game in retirement than he actually played?
Keegan and daglish were definitely good coaches, just not world class like their playing days
Anceloti was thee backbone of a generational Millan team , he wasn't really the standout ayer from that squad so I I wouldn't really call him world class but you make a case I suppose
Puskas had a decent coaching career and so did di estefano and there are bunch others as well ( trapotoni, conte, cesare Maldini, zagallo, Beckenbauer etc etc ) , so yeah there's a lot of decent ones out there
Well he did almost win the premier league, overall not great as a manger but very decentKeegan was a bit like Ole? A cheering P E Teacher?
His initial woes when being chided by Keane etc. and had concentration issues are not what he went on to become, which is why I stated at the point he went on to be world class; it wasn't just his individual game that went through the roof, but also his organisation and on the pitch nurturing of those around him. He was vital in developing our right full-backs as well as doing the best by/for his CB partner.
Rio had some solid runs of the above before Vidic even got here, but the likes of Silvestre could not maintain that output and reverted to type, which can't be blamed on Rio.
Regarding Evans, history re-writes it so that he was always the player he left as instead of acknowledging that he came into the team and was a superb organiser in his own right being just as culpable for the defensive run we went on as Vidic. Evans came in a prodigious talent who had been a revelation for the unders before making his full-time leap. He was a revelation for a period of time before his confidence got knocked.
Vidic was a great organiser in his own right and once he arrived, Rio no longer had to coddle a defensive partner in any way, which is obviously different gravy to the discussion at hand. Your point about us becoming the world's best when Vidic and Rio were in their pomp is somewhat removed from what I'm talking about as my frame of reference is helping and carrying vastly inferior players in the best way possible, which Rio was a beacon for, imo.
No, I don't think Rio talks a better game than he played. His views and the way he talks about defending are congruent with him being exceptional at it as a player. He breaks down the what, how and why and offers remedies as soon as he's asked to. For me, he's sharp as a tack when talking about his field of expertise, and I'm not saying he's some all-knowing genius with regard to the rest of the game as he does give mindless soundbites when not talking about defending.
Pretty much.As mentioned previously in the Thread, I would imagine that RIO would regurgitate SAF methods and theory (as that’s what he has known and what he has had success with) as opposed to having genius ideas on how to get the best out of players.
I’d rather a new bona fide Defensive coach.
RF doesn’t do himself any favours on TV.
As much as Robbie Savage does.
We can go back and forth on this for pages, but at a fundamental level, we really disagree on the core components as Rio, to my eyes, proved himself time and again as an organiser and nurturer of inferior players around him - from your assessment, Rio has no place in such a discussion, which I'm not going to win you over on. You've got Rio down as a 'more talented version of Silvestre and Brown', which is a position I am disinclined to dissuade you from. You're also essentially saying Rio was a moments player and not one who earned the right to be called the very best in the world in his position, which may have been right in his fledgling years, but is not applicable to the player he went on to become at his peak.I agree. Silvestre's inability to maintain a high level of performance can't be blamed on Rio. But equally, it does counter your argument that he could elevate the level of those he played beside.
In reality, the reason Vidic was such a huge improvement in defence was his consistency. Rio was a more talented version of Silvestre and Brown. A fantastic athlete, excellent one on one defender but inconsistent, error prone and likely to lose concentration.
I always found Rio's European performances to be better than his league performances because the size of the occasion seemed to focus him more.
On nurturing the full backs, I actually saw this differently. In the United defence, I always felt Fergie needed to play a more defensive player at right back to balance the defence. It was partly to counter Evra's offensive nature at left back, so the right back was always a "safer" player.
Fergie was more comfortable having Vidic exposed on the left than Rio on the right. He was really reluctant to play Rafael at right back because it opened that side of the defence. Having a Brown/O'Shea/Jones/Smalling at right back also helped aerially as teams were less likely to pepper United's right side of defence with high balls.
On Evans, you are disputing my point by noting what a good organiser he was. Why then was the defence so disorganised when he partnered Rio? Evans' best performances came alongside Vidic who made him look a much better defender than he actually was.
Rio was an outstandingly talented defender. He had all of the talent you could want and on his day was a rolls royce of a defender. But his day wasn't anywhere near as often as nostalgia has many believe.
He's an excellent media personality who is articulate and manages his reputation exceptionally well. I'm sure many former players understand the basics of defending in the same way. They most likely don't have the forum or ability to articulate it that as Rio does.
There's a huge leap from that to organising a team defensively at the elite level, which involves all 11 players, not just the defenders.
it's obviously conjecture to say he'd be seamless at coaching it in the modern game
He should tell that to his mate Scholesy.https://metro.co.uk/2022/05/09/rio-...rangnick-from-giving-interviews-16612848/amp/
Thank feck no one is asking Rio anything.
In some way, I agree that things should be done without public knowing everything but we have gone past that line because of behaviour of our players. So we need more honesty.https://metro.co.uk/2022/05/09/rio-...rangnick-from-giving-interviews-16612848/amp/
Thank feck no one is asking Rio anything.
