To be fair I think that there are more credible sources than Wiki for the player roles/stats and Tuppet is right that he is often being described as Di Stefano before Di Stefano - and all the sources depict him as a complete player who is much more than your usual number 10
Reserves Draft | Downcast 6-7 Tuppet
- Thread starter Moby
- Start date
THE CASE OF BLANCHFLOWER - PART I
Pirlo has a smilar role: deep-lying playmaker.
In order to excel very well against a great team, Pirlo used to need a strong midfield i.e. 2 defensive midfielders (like Gattuso + Seedorf with Milan AC), which is not the case here.
Pirlo has a smilar role: deep-lying playmaker.
In order to excel very well against a great team, Pirlo used to need a strong midfield i.e. 2 defensive midfielders (like Gattuso + Seedorf with Milan AC), which is not the case here.
THE CASE OF MAZZOLA - PART IV
Let's say he has the same positioning of Di Stefano.
So, I'm right to think Mazzola is not famous for being a box-to-box player contrary to some claims.
Let's say he has the same positioning of Di Stefano.
So, I'm right to think Mazzola is not famous for being a box-to-box player contrary to some claims.
V. THE CURIOUS CASE OF DE VECCHI
I know he has a fantastic reputation and he is considered as the best LB in the 1910s by our Italian friends who love words like "Bellisima" 'Moltissimo" or "Migliore".
Let's look at his Honours:
- only 3 titles won (Scudetti: 1914–15, 1922–23, 1923–24)
- 42 caps (0 goal)
At the international level, let's analyse his performances:
Football at the 1912 Summer Olympics he played one match in the main tournament as well as two matches in the consolation tournament at the age of 16
Football at the 1920 Summer Olympics at the age of 24 - Career Peak - elimination en 1/4 contre france - 2 matchs répertoriés
Starting 11: Italy/Egypt
http://www.fifa.com/tournaments/arc...0/matches/round=197010/match=32276/index.html
Starting11: Loss of Italy (1-3) against France
http://www.fifa.com/tournaments/arc...0/matches/round=197011/match=32281/index.html
On the bench: Italy vs Norway
http://www.fifa.com/tournaments/arc...0/matches/round=197017/match=32283/index.html
Starting11: Loss of Italy
http://www.fifa.com/tournaments/arc...0/matches/round=197018/match=32289/index.html
Football at the 1924 Summer Olympics at the age of 28
On the bench: Italy/ Spain
http://www.fifa.com/tournaments/arc...4/matches/round=197022/match=32291/index.html
Starting 11: Italy/ Luxembourg (terrific team)
http://www.fifa.com/tournaments/arc...4/matches/round=197023/match=32301/index.html
On the bench:
http://www.fifa.com/tournaments/arc...4/matches/round=197024/match=32308/index.html
At the International level, no impressive credentials as you can see below
To sum up my modest understanding of this player:
- No videos available: logical because he is a player of the 1910s
- Not always part of the starting 11 of Italy during major tournaments
- Only 3 titles
- A player coming from Italy, the land of superlatives
I wouldn't be surprised that this player is over-rated: this is just my opinion of course based on facts.
Certainly a superior player in an Italian context but I am sceptical about his status of "One of the Greatest Players of All-Time"
I know he has a fantastic reputation and he is considered as the best LB in the 1910s by our Italian friends who love words like "Bellisima" 'Moltissimo" or "Migliore".
Let's look at his Honours:
- only 3 titles won (Scudetti: 1914–15, 1922–23, 1923–24)
- 42 caps (0 goal)
At the international level, let's analyse his performances:
Football at the 1912 Summer Olympics he played one match in the main tournament as well as two matches in the consolation tournament at the age of 16
Football at the 1920 Summer Olympics at the age of 24 - Career Peak - elimination en 1/4 contre france - 2 matchs répertoriés
Starting 11: Italy/Egypt
http://www.fifa.com/tournaments/arc...0/matches/round=197010/match=32276/index.html
Starting11: Loss of Italy (1-3) against France
http://www.fifa.com/tournaments/arc...0/matches/round=197011/match=32281/index.html
On the bench: Italy vs Norway
http://www.fifa.com/tournaments/arc...0/matches/round=197017/match=32283/index.html
Starting11: Loss of Italy
http://www.fifa.com/tournaments/arc...0/matches/round=197018/match=32289/index.html
Football at the 1924 Summer Olympics at the age of 28
On the bench: Italy/ Spain
http://www.fifa.com/tournaments/arc...4/matches/round=197022/match=32291/index.html
Starting 11: Italy/ Luxembourg (terrific team)
http://www.fifa.com/tournaments/arc...4/matches/round=197023/match=32301/index.html
On the bench:
http://www.fifa.com/tournaments/arc...4/matches/round=197024/match=32308/index.html
At the International level, no impressive credentials as you can see below
To sum up my modest understanding of this player:
- No videos available: logical because he is a player of the 1910s
- Not always part of the starting 11 of Italy during major tournaments
- Only 3 titles
- A player coming from Italy, the land of superlatives
I wouldn't be surprised that this player is over-rated: this is just my opinion of course based on facts.
Certainly a superior player in an Italian context but I am sceptical about his status of "One of the Greatest Players of All-Time"
You should read up on Di Stefano to understand that "box-to-box striker" is probably the best way to describe him. He played all over the pitch, which makes his goalscoring record even more impressive. If Mazzola really played like him (like multiple sources say), than the "box-to-box" tag is justified.
Arrow mania!
Personally, I draw a distinction between:
- a versatile forward with a high stamina who moves a lot near the penalty area of the opponent and scores a lot of goals, and a
- "box-to-box midfielder" like Yaya Touré, Vieira, Mendieta, Gerrard, Pogba, Vidal
The point is that Di Stefano was an absolutely unique player. He really was everywhere - and I'm not talking only the final third. He dropped back almost as a libero, moved the ball from the defence, helped to gain the control in midfield, and, on top of that, scored a hell of a lot of goals. If Mazzola was really similar to Di Stefano (which seems to be the case, maybe not in quality, but in style), than there is nothing wrong with Tuppet's description and you're too invested in the FM-esque roles and positions, despite the fact that there are/were players that couldn't be labeled or compared to the modern ones.
Pirlo is also a bad comparison to Blanchflower - someone like Xabi Alonso, who is much better defensively and, unlike Pirlo, doesn't need to have a midfield built completely around him, is a better example.
Having congested few days barely have time to sit down and see United. But just had to make that arrow noteI was sure you would participate in this discussion
I never liked too many arrows in a teamsheet unless it's incredibly necessary, but I still think you have the better team here.
Having congested few days barely have time to sit down and see United. But just had to make that arrow note
I never liked too many arrows in a teamsheet unless it's incredibly necessary, but I still think you have the better team here.
Thanks.
IS MY OPPONENT ABLE TO STOP MY DUTCH WINGERS: RENSENBRINK & REP ?
ON MY LEFT
If we exclude BLOKHIN or George Best, RENSENBRINK is probably the best Left-Winger of the 70s. This claim is based on the following achievements:
Netherlands
More information and videos below: https://www.redcafe.net/threads/all-time-reserves-draft-round-of-16.416155/page-36#post-19075491
ON MY RIGHT
If we take the period 60s-70: Rep is one of the top few greatest right-wingers with Lato, Jairzinho, Amancio, Johnstone...
More information and videos below: https://www.redcafe.net/threads/all-time-reserves-draft-round-of-16.416155/page-36#post-19075491
THEY PLAYED TOGETHER AND WERE SUCCESSFUL OVER A PERIOD OF 6 YEARS
My priority was to build a team and make sure all my players play in their natural position and are complementary.
I don't see an offensive strategy as the sum of players with excellent statistics.
1974 WC FINAL
1978 WC FINAL
Suarez is successful with Messi & Neymar. So, it's obvious that my offensive strategy is consistent and has been defined upstream...not to mention the Gerrard-Suarez complementarity.
I try to develop synergies.
ON MY LEFT
If we exclude BLOKHIN or George Best, RENSENBRINK is probably the best Left-Winger of the 70s. This claim is based on the following achievements:
Netherlands
- FIFA World Cup: 1974 (Runner-up), 1978 (Runner-up)
- UEFA European Football Championship: 1976 (Third place)
- Ballon d'Or: 1976 (Runner-up), 1978 (Third place)
- FIFA World Cup Bronze Boot: 1978
- FIFA World Cup All-Star Team : 1974, 1978
- FIFA World Cup Most Assists: 1978
- Onze de Bronze : 1978, 1979
- Belgian First Division top scorers: 1972–73
- UEFA Cup Winners' Cup top scorers: 1975–76
- Belgian Golden Shoe: 1976
- Onze d'Or: 1976
More information and videos below: https://www.redcafe.net/threads/all-time-reserves-draft-round-of-16.416155/page-36#post-19075491
ON MY RIGHT
If we take the period 60s-70: Rep is one of the top few greatest right-wingers with Lato, Jairzinho, Amancio, Johnstone...
More information and videos below: https://www.redcafe.net/threads/all-time-reserves-draft-round-of-16.416155/page-36#post-19075491
THEY PLAYED TOGETHER AND WERE SUCCESSFUL OVER A PERIOD OF 6 YEARS
My priority was to build a team and make sure all my players play in their natural position and are complementary.
I don't see an offensive strategy as the sum of players with excellent statistics.
1974 WC FINAL
1978 WC FINAL
Suarez is successful with Messi & Neymar. So, it's obvious that my offensive strategy is consistent and has been defined upstream...not to mention the Gerrard-Suarez complementarity.
I try to develop synergies.
HISTORY OF THE GAME: HOLLAND 4-1 ARGENTINA - 1974 WC
Rep, Rensenbrink and Perfumo are on the pitch.
The gif shows Rensenbrink who makes Perfumo fall in the ground. Now, you can imagine the damaging impact of the trio Abidal-Rensenbrink-Suarez on my left side.
Below, Rep scored
Rep, Rensenbrink and Perfumo are on the pitch.
The gif shows Rensenbrink who makes Perfumo fall in the ground. Now, you can imagine the damaging impact of the trio Abidal-Rensenbrink-Suarez on my left side.
Below, Rep scored
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A USEFUL GLOSSARY
Central Midfielder - TYPOLOGY
--->>>>> Box-To-Box Midfielder : he operates in both defensive and offensive game, occasionally went forward to support attacking game or even scored by themselves.
--->>>>> Defensive Holding Midfielder : mostly based on the central midfield area, available in ball controlling, vision and passing, must be good in defensive game as well, and classify into 2 positions. Defensive Holding Midfielder and Central Holding Midfielder depend on degree of defensive quality.
--->>>>> Wing-Half : played in semi-side position, had a role to stop both inside-forward and out-side forward of opponent side and support offensive game primarily in central area.
--->>>>> Destroyer : mainly responsible for destroying the game of opponent
Offensive Midfielder - TYPOLOGY
Definition of offensive midfielder covers these position
1. Playmaker : Midfielders who were great as creator and passer but not proficient as support striker.
2. Attacking Midfielder : Opposite to Playmaker, They were much greater in go attacking to support do scores than creator and passer.
3. Playmaking-Attacking Midfielder : The combination between the first and the second choices. MAZZOLA
4. Free-Role/Semi-Side Midfielder : Midfielders who operate running the game in both central and either or both sides of midfield but mostly base on central area.
Central Midfielder - TYPOLOGY
--->>>>> Box-To-Box Midfielder : he operates in both defensive and offensive game, occasionally went forward to support attacking game or even scored by themselves.
--->>>>> Defensive Holding Midfielder : mostly based on the central midfield area, available in ball controlling, vision and passing, must be good in defensive game as well, and classify into 2 positions. Defensive Holding Midfielder and Central Holding Midfielder depend on degree of defensive quality.
--->>>>> Wing-Half : played in semi-side position, had a role to stop both inside-forward and out-side forward of opponent side and support offensive game primarily in central area.
--->>>>> Destroyer : mainly responsible for destroying the game of opponent
Offensive Midfielder - TYPOLOGY
Definition of offensive midfielder covers these position
1. Playmaker : Midfielders who were great as creator and passer but not proficient as support striker.
2. Attacking Midfielder : Opposite to Playmaker, They were much greater in go attacking to support do scores than creator and passer.
3. Playmaking-Attacking Midfielder : The combination between the first and the second choices. MAZZOLA
4. Free-Role/Semi-Side Midfielder : Midfielders who operate running the game in both central and either or both sides of midfield but mostly base on central area.
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FLORIAN ALBERT AND MAZZOLA: POTENTIAL CONFLICT OF INTERESTS
Once again, I don't deny the high quality of all the 22 players but I analyse the strategy in collective terms.
So, Florian Albert & Mazzola are great players who... are inclined to evolve in the same area on a pitch.
Florian Albert can't be considered as a "pure right-winger" or an 'offensive lateral' in a 4-3-3 system
Ferenc Bene was a machine scorer as a right wing-forwarder
Once again, I don't deny the high quality of all the 22 players but I analyse the strategy in collective terms.
So, Florian Albert & Mazzola are great players who... are inclined to evolve in the same area on a pitch.
Florian Albert can't be considered as a "pure right-winger" or an 'offensive lateral' in a 4-3-3 system
Ferenc Bene was a machine scorer as a right wing-forwarder
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ONLY ONE OF THE 2 SUBS IS A PURE STRIKER AND HE IS PART OF MY SQUAD
LET'S TALK ABOUT VIEIRI... THE MAN WHO COULD STRIKE THE DECISIVE BLOW AT THE END OF THE GAME
I am very delighted to possess him.
I strongly believe in the quality of a partnership Suarez-Vieri.
If I'm successful today, I will continue to be creative and change my philosophy for the next game for many reasons:
- This thread is a big failure in terms of contribution of the viewers
- I don't like to repeat myself so I will recruit 2 new players and introduce Vieiri in the starting 11 !!
LET'S TALK ABOUT VIEIRI... THE MAN WHO COULD STRIKE THE DECISIVE BLOW AT THE END OF THE GAME
I am very delighted to possess him.
I strongly believe in the quality of a partnership Suarez-Vieri.
If I'm successful today, I will continue to be creative and change my philosophy for the next game for many reasons:
- This thread is a big failure in terms of contribution of the viewers
- I don't like to repeat myself so I will recruit 2 new players and introduce Vieiri in the starting 11 !!
MODERN FOOTBALL MEANS 30% OF THE GOALS ARE SCORED FROM SET-PIECES
What if Rensenbrink scored against Argentina - 1978 WC? - PART I
In impossible conditions they reached the World Cup final. But even in their homeland they became second best losers
Later today, not sure about the time, it will be 33 years since Rob Rensenbrink hit the side post and Holland didn’t win the World Cup in Argentina in 1978.
What if?
Some historians believe the World Cup victory allowed the military junta to hold on to power for a couple of extra years. Which would cost the lives of a few more thousands of people. This may be highly speculative.
I imagine Rensenbrink would have re-written not only the story of 1978 but that of the World Cup of 1974 too. The trauma erased there and then. Though Holland would have probably lost it’s status as the “other” football power. The alternative. Become just another World Cup winning nation.
Rensenbrink himself would have been the first outright top scorer to lift the cup. Cruyff would have still been Holland’s greatest but Rensenbrink elevated to a legendary status. Quite rightly too. He was easily one of the top 3-4 forwards in world football back then. In no way inferior to Kempes or Dalglish. But the history of football is about history more than about football.
32 years later, when Arjen Robben was blocked by Casillas I had this strange thought. Do Robben and Sneijder really have the right to succeed where Cruyff and Rensenbrink ultimately failed? About an hour later, when the Dutch collected their losers medals – something they did not do in 1978 for political reasons – this thought had evaporated.
A few years ago I read a story how the members of the 1978 team are forgotten heroes in Argentina. Many of them have had unhappy lives. They are in the shadow of the Maradona team perceived to have won the cup for a democratic country rather than a dictatorship.
But the Dutch 1978 team are the forgotten losers. The 1974 team just complacently gave it away to a German team that won fair and square. The 1978 team overcame enormous adversity. Dealing with Cruyff’s mysterious absence. With a hostile political atmosphere particularly towards liberal Holland. And confronting the least ethical host nation campaign at least since Mussolini’s Italy.
The argentineans altered game times and referees. Engineered match throwing by a Peruvian goalkeeper. Unethically turned up late to the final. The host-friendly refereeing of 1966 or 2002 pale in contrast. A victory that should be considered hardly legitimate.
And still. That brave Dutch team have become the forgotten less glamorous losers.
They were:
Jongbloed,
Krol, Jansen (Suurbier 75), Brandts, Poortvleit
Neeskens, Haan, W. Van de Kerkhof, R. Van der Kerkhof,
Rep (Nanninga 58), Rensenbrink
Coach: Ernst Happel. An Austrian, he would have been the only foreign coach to win a world cup.
http://www.soccerissue.com/2011/06/25/what-if-rensenbrink-scored/
In impossible conditions they reached the World Cup final. But even in their homeland they became second best losers
Later today, not sure about the time, it will be 33 years since Rob Rensenbrink hit the side post and Holland didn’t win the World Cup in Argentina in 1978.
What if?
Some historians believe the World Cup victory allowed the military junta to hold on to power for a couple of extra years. Which would cost the lives of a few more thousands of people. This may be highly speculative.
I imagine Rensenbrink would have re-written not only the story of 1978 but that of the World Cup of 1974 too. The trauma erased there and then. Though Holland would have probably lost it’s status as the “other” football power. The alternative. Become just another World Cup winning nation.
Rensenbrink himself would have been the first outright top scorer to lift the cup. Cruyff would have still been Holland’s greatest but Rensenbrink elevated to a legendary status. Quite rightly too. He was easily one of the top 3-4 forwards in world football back then. In no way inferior to Kempes or Dalglish. But the history of football is about history more than about football.
32 years later, when Arjen Robben was blocked by Casillas I had this strange thought. Do Robben and Sneijder really have the right to succeed where Cruyff and Rensenbrink ultimately failed? About an hour later, when the Dutch collected their losers medals – something they did not do in 1978 for political reasons – this thought had evaporated.
A few years ago I read a story how the members of the 1978 team are forgotten heroes in Argentina. Many of them have had unhappy lives. They are in the shadow of the Maradona team perceived to have won the cup for a democratic country rather than a dictatorship.
But the Dutch 1978 team are the forgotten losers. The 1974 team just complacently gave it away to a German team that won fair and square. The 1978 team overcame enormous adversity. Dealing with Cruyff’s mysterious absence. With a hostile political atmosphere particularly towards liberal Holland. And confronting the least ethical host nation campaign at least since Mussolini’s Italy.
The argentineans altered game times and referees. Engineered match throwing by a Peruvian goalkeeper. Unethically turned up late to the final. The host-friendly refereeing of 1966 or 2002 pale in contrast. A victory that should be considered hardly legitimate.
And still. That brave Dutch team have become the forgotten less glamorous losers.
They were:
Jongbloed,
Krol, Jansen (Suurbier 75), Brandts, Poortvleit
Neeskens, Haan, W. Van de Kerkhof, R. Van der Kerkhof,
Rep (Nanninga 58), Rensenbrink
Coach: Ernst Happel. An Austrian, he would have been the only foreign coach to win a world cup.
http://www.soccerissue.com/2011/06/25/what-if-rensenbrink-scored/
What if Rensenbrink scored against Argentina - 1978 WC? - PART II
Every sport has its 'what if?' moments, when triumph and disaster are separated by a razor's edge.
What if Jean Van de Velde hadn't chopped his third shot into the Barry Burn at Carnoustie in 1999? Or if heavy rain had not forced Niki Lauda to retire from the 1976 Japanese Grand Prix, allowing James Hunt to snatch the title? In football, the name Rob Rensenbrink immediately sparks the question in the mind of anyone over 40: what if that shot hadn't rebounded off the post?
Rensenbrink's shot at glory came in the 1978 World Cup final in Buenos Aires, as part of the Netherlands' legendary "Total Football" team. In a stadium packed with 71,000 Argentines, speckled with a few hundred Dutch supporters, substitute Dick Nanninga scored a late equaliser to cancel out Mario Kempes' early goal for the hosts. Then came Rensenbrink's moment. As the clock ticked past 90 minutes, the sweeper Ruud Krol hoisted a free-kick from the centre circle towards the edge of the six-yard box.
Rensenbrink drifted in from the left, stuck out a boot and steered the ball beyond the goalkeeper Ubaldo Fillol. The world held its breath - and the ball pinged back off the post, to be lashed away by a defender. In extra time, Kempes struck again, Daniel Bertoni added a third and the rest is history.
At his home in Oostzaan, a commuter town to the north of Amsterdam, the 67-year-old Rensenbrink is remarkably sanguine about what might have been. "Of course it's engraved in my memory," he says. "It'll be there until my dying day. It was an impossible angle, and yet it hit the post. It could just as well have gone in. It wasn't even a shot; it was a touch. I didn't have room to shoot. I just placed it. And it could just as easily have fallen to a team-mate to tuck away, but it wasn't to be. But I don't reproach myself that it didn't go in, because it wasn't a real chance."
Had Rensenbrink scored, and the Dutch held on, he, rather than Kempes, would have finished the tournament as top scorer. Remarkably, four of his five goals came from the penalty spot, including the opener in the 3-2 defeat by Scotland that enabled the Dutch to edge through on goal difference. "We were lucky in the first round against Scotland," he says. "The Scots went 3-1 up with around a quarter of an hour to play and we were worried it would be 4-1. If they scored one more goal, we'd be going home. And then Johnny Rep scored from 25 yards into the top corner."
There are other reasons to ponder what might have happened had Rensenbrink's shot gone in. The 1978 tournament was hosted by General Galtieri's murderous regime, and many observers believed the junta was determined to engineer a home win at any cost. Had the Dutch gone 2-1 ahead, would they have somehow been denied victory? Rensenbrink doesn't think so: "If that ball had gone in, there were only two minutes left; Argentina wouldn't have won," he says. "But I have my question marks: we were set to play the final against Brazil unless Argentina could beat Peru by six goals. And they did it. Something must have happened, because we only managed a 0-0 draw against Peru. They were a good team."
It wasn't the only dubious moment: the start of the final was delayed because the Italian referee objected to a wrist support that the Dutch midfielder Rene van de Kerkhof had been wearing since the opening match against Iran. The Dutch players threatened to walk off the pitch, until the officials compromised and let Van de Kerkhof back on with a different strapping. "He'd worn it throughout the tournament and then suddenly the referee comes along," says Rensenbrink. Yet he dismisses the idea that the Dutch players were unsettled by dirty tricks. "As a player you don't have that feeling; you go out on to the pitch to win and play well. It's only afterwards that you look back and think about it."
Rensenbrink also faced Argentina in the 1974 World Cup, a 4-0 demolition job that featured two goals by Johan Cruyff. "The team of '74 was the best I played in," he said. "Full of top players: Cruyff, Neeskens, Krol, Rep, Van Hanegem."
Rensenbrink came into the reckoning relatively late, mainly because he played in the Belgian league with Anderlecht. Having made his international debut against Scotland as a 20-year-old in 1968 - a 0-0 draw in Amsterdam - he went nearly four years without a cap until he caught the eye of Rinus Michels in a pre-season game against Barcelona. "It was a stroke of luck for me, because we won 2-1 and I scored. Michels was coach of Barcelona, and when he became the national team manager he called me up. All because of that one friendly match."
Rensenbrink was a prolific scorer in Belgium, his mazy dribbles earning him the nickname slangenmens, or "snake-man". He established himself as the first choice on the left wing, with Cruyff playing in the centre. "We were all good footballers," he says. "We didn't look up to each other. People compared me to Cruyff, but I was a different type of player: more technical, more of a dribbler. I never thought of myself as a lesser player than Cruyff."
Every sport has its 'what if?' moments, when triumph and disaster are separated by a razor's edge.
What if Jean Van de Velde hadn't chopped his third shot into the Barry Burn at Carnoustie in 1999? Or if heavy rain had not forced Niki Lauda to retire from the 1976 Japanese Grand Prix, allowing James Hunt to snatch the title? In football, the name Rob Rensenbrink immediately sparks the question in the mind of anyone over 40: what if that shot hadn't rebounded off the post?
Rensenbrink's shot at glory came in the 1978 World Cup final in Buenos Aires, as part of the Netherlands' legendary "Total Football" team. In a stadium packed with 71,000 Argentines, speckled with a few hundred Dutch supporters, substitute Dick Nanninga scored a late equaliser to cancel out Mario Kempes' early goal for the hosts. Then came Rensenbrink's moment. As the clock ticked past 90 minutes, the sweeper Ruud Krol hoisted a free-kick from the centre circle towards the edge of the six-yard box.
Rensenbrink drifted in from the left, stuck out a boot and steered the ball beyond the goalkeeper Ubaldo Fillol. The world held its breath - and the ball pinged back off the post, to be lashed away by a defender. In extra time, Kempes struck again, Daniel Bertoni added a third and the rest is history.
At his home in Oostzaan, a commuter town to the north of Amsterdam, the 67-year-old Rensenbrink is remarkably sanguine about what might have been. "Of course it's engraved in my memory," he says. "It'll be there until my dying day. It was an impossible angle, and yet it hit the post. It could just as well have gone in. It wasn't even a shot; it was a touch. I didn't have room to shoot. I just placed it. And it could just as easily have fallen to a team-mate to tuck away, but it wasn't to be. But I don't reproach myself that it didn't go in, because it wasn't a real chance."
Had Rensenbrink scored, and the Dutch held on, he, rather than Kempes, would have finished the tournament as top scorer. Remarkably, four of his five goals came from the penalty spot, including the opener in the 3-2 defeat by Scotland that enabled the Dutch to edge through on goal difference. "We were lucky in the first round against Scotland," he says. "The Scots went 3-1 up with around a quarter of an hour to play and we were worried it would be 4-1. If they scored one more goal, we'd be going home. And then Johnny Rep scored from 25 yards into the top corner."
There are other reasons to ponder what might have happened had Rensenbrink's shot gone in. The 1978 tournament was hosted by General Galtieri's murderous regime, and many observers believed the junta was determined to engineer a home win at any cost. Had the Dutch gone 2-1 ahead, would they have somehow been denied victory? Rensenbrink doesn't think so: "If that ball had gone in, there were only two minutes left; Argentina wouldn't have won," he says. "But I have my question marks: we were set to play the final against Brazil unless Argentina could beat Peru by six goals. And they did it. Something must have happened, because we only managed a 0-0 draw against Peru. They were a good team."
It wasn't the only dubious moment: the start of the final was delayed because the Italian referee objected to a wrist support that the Dutch midfielder Rene van de Kerkhof had been wearing since the opening match against Iran. The Dutch players threatened to walk off the pitch, until the officials compromised and let Van de Kerkhof back on with a different strapping. "He'd worn it throughout the tournament and then suddenly the referee comes along," says Rensenbrink. Yet he dismisses the idea that the Dutch players were unsettled by dirty tricks. "As a player you don't have that feeling; you go out on to the pitch to win and play well. It's only afterwards that you look back and think about it."
Rensenbrink also faced Argentina in the 1974 World Cup, a 4-0 demolition job that featured two goals by Johan Cruyff. "The team of '74 was the best I played in," he said. "Full of top players: Cruyff, Neeskens, Krol, Rep, Van Hanegem."
Rensenbrink came into the reckoning relatively late, mainly because he played in the Belgian league with Anderlecht. Having made his international debut against Scotland as a 20-year-old in 1968 - a 0-0 draw in Amsterdam - he went nearly four years without a cap until he caught the eye of Rinus Michels in a pre-season game against Barcelona. "It was a stroke of luck for me, because we won 2-1 and I scored. Michels was coach of Barcelona, and when he became the national team manager he called me up. All because of that one friendly match."
Rensenbrink was a prolific scorer in Belgium, his mazy dribbles earning him the nickname slangenmens, or "snake-man". He established himself as the first choice on the left wing, with Cruyff playing in the centre. "We were all good footballers," he says. "We didn't look up to each other. People compared me to Cruyff, but I was a different type of player: more technical, more of a dribbler. I never thought of myself as a lesser player than Cruyff."
THE THREAD HAS 55 POSTS IF WE EXCLUDE PRESENTATION POSTS including... 38 POSTS BY DOWNCAST
I now regret that I voted, hard to decide between those teams
OSVALDO ARDILES - WHY IS HE AN ARGENTINIAN WORLD-CUP WINNER?
Sometimes in football, doing the simple things can be the hardest. One man who never struggled in that regard was the Argentinian Osvaldo Cesar Ardiles, an intelligent midfielder whose skill and tenacity brought him a FIFA World Cup™ winner’s medal in 1978 and subsequent acclaim in England. There he not only became one of the symbols of a successful Tottenham Hotspur side during the early and mid '80s, but he helped pave the way for foreign players coming to the English league. FIFA.com traces the eventful past of this globe-trotting Argentinian and finds a man with ambition still burning today.
Memorable moments
Born on 3 August 1952 in Bell Ville in the province of Cordoba, Ardiles got his first taste of professional football with Instituto de Cordoba in 1973, the club’s first ever season in the Argentinian top flight. The following year he moved to fellow Cordoba side Belgrano, but it was only after his switch to Huracan in 1975 that his career really began to take off.
Though not the most arresting player physically, being slim and just 1.69m, he more than made up for it with his astute play in the centre or right side of midfield, where he proved himself as adept at breaking up play as he was in instigating it. “My position was a little hard to define: half of my job was to create, the other half to defend. I wasn’t a wide-man like the type you see today, but rather a pure midfielder who you rarely saw in either area. My task was to free up the playmaker to give him the time and space to create,” he tells FIFA.com in an exclusive interview.
This twin role quickly saw him stand out at Huracan, and it was little surprise when then Albiceleste coach Cesar Menotti called him into the senior squad in 1975 ahead of the FIFA World Cup on home soil three years later. “I learned more from Cesar than anyone else in football. He was an integral part of my development and he imbued me with a playing philosophy that valued the importance of trying to entertain and play good football,” says El Pitón (The Python), a moniker given to him by his brother because he felt “I weaved around the pitch like snake”.
Menotti stood by the midfielder in the build-up to the finals despite calls for his replacement. “I never defended his selection: he earned everything by dint of his character and talent,” the coach would say years later. And it was to be a judicious decision by Menotti, with Ardiles emerging as a key member of the side that triumphed at Argentina 1978, a tournament in which he managed to play all but one game despite carrying an injury throughout.
Breaking down barriers
Such was his impact at the showpiece event that he and fellow international Ricardo Villa were signed by Tottenham Hotspur for a reported £750,000 in what was a groundbreaking transfer at the time. “The idea was to play a few seasons and then return, but we never imagined the impact we would have. It’s said that our success paved the way for more foreign players to come to England, and there is some truth in that. I believe the influx would have happened anyway, but our accomplishments accelerated that process,” he says from his home in England.
Ardiles came to represent a whole era at Spurs, with whom he won the 1981 and 1982 FA Cups (although he would miss the latter final because of international duty) and the 1984 UEFA Cup. Over ten years at the club, ‘Ossie’ as he was affectionately known in England, played 311 times, netting 25 goals – quite a figure for someone “who rarely got into the box”. Today he remains an ambassador for the club and a proud member of the Tottenham Hotspur Hall of Fame.
Ardiles’s popularity in his adopted home hit new heights in 1981 thanks in no small part to his participation in two artistic projects. The first was his appearance in the blockbuster movie Escape to Victory alongside Sylvester Stallone, Michael Caine, Pele and Bobby Moore; and the second was his part in the video Ossie's Dream (Spurs are on their way to Wembley), a cup-final song recorded by the Spurs team alongside folk duo Chas & Dave that reached the dizzying heights of No5 in the nation’s pop charts.
The player’s international career ended when Argentina surrendered their world title at Spain 1982, an episode Ardiles calls “the biggest failure” of his career. After a loan-spell with French side Paris Saint-Germain in 1982/83, coinciding with the conflict between England and Argentina over the Falkland Islands, the player returned to Spurs. In 1987, towards the end of his time in North London, he briefly added the role of caretaker manager to his playing duties “as a favour to the club”.
When he finally bade farewell to White Hart Lane the following year, he enjoyed short spells with Blackburn Rovers and Queens Park Rangers as well as USA outfit Fort Lauderdale Strikers, before returning to England in 1989 to take up a permanent position of player-manager with second-division Swindon Town. “I picked myself for the first two games and then dropped myself (laughs)! Although the functions were compatible, I wasn’t going to play. Going into management made my retirement from playing less traumatic and it was natural transition,” he says.
Today
To date, Ardiles has coached no fewer than 14 teams in places as far flung as Mexico, Argentina, Syria, Israel, Croatia, Japan and Paraguay, where a brief spell with Cerro Porteno in 2008 marked his last managerial position. And while he has only tasted league title success in Japan, he is fondly remembered in his homeland for his time in charge of Racing Club and Huracan, both of which he steered clear of the relegation zone with a brand of entertaining and attacking football.
Nowadays, as well as being kept occupied by his grandchildren, Ardiles is busy in his role as ambassador for England’s bid to host the 2018 FIFA World Cup and that of TV football pundit. For all that, the 58-year-old is still keen to practice what he considers to be his vocation, as he tells us at the end of our interview. “What interests me is coaching. I’m aware that I haven’t had the same success in that field as I had as a player, but it is still my goal to take on the challenge of building a team, then getting it to play well and win things.”
Sometimes in football, doing the simple things can be the hardest. One man who never struggled in that regard was the Argentinian Osvaldo Cesar Ardiles, an intelligent midfielder whose skill and tenacity brought him a FIFA World Cup™ winner’s medal in 1978 and subsequent acclaim in England. There he not only became one of the symbols of a successful Tottenham Hotspur side during the early and mid '80s, but he helped pave the way for foreign players coming to the English league. FIFA.com traces the eventful past of this globe-trotting Argentinian and finds a man with ambition still burning today.
Memorable moments
Born on 3 August 1952 in Bell Ville in the province of Cordoba, Ardiles got his first taste of professional football with Instituto de Cordoba in 1973, the club’s first ever season in the Argentinian top flight. The following year he moved to fellow Cordoba side Belgrano, but it was only after his switch to Huracan in 1975 that his career really began to take off.
Though not the most arresting player physically, being slim and just 1.69m, he more than made up for it with his astute play in the centre or right side of midfield, where he proved himself as adept at breaking up play as he was in instigating it. “My position was a little hard to define: half of my job was to create, the other half to defend. I wasn’t a wide-man like the type you see today, but rather a pure midfielder who you rarely saw in either area. My task was to free up the playmaker to give him the time and space to create,” he tells FIFA.com in an exclusive interview.
This twin role quickly saw him stand out at Huracan, and it was little surprise when then Albiceleste coach Cesar Menotti called him into the senior squad in 1975 ahead of the FIFA World Cup on home soil three years later. “I learned more from Cesar than anyone else in football. He was an integral part of my development and he imbued me with a playing philosophy that valued the importance of trying to entertain and play good football,” says El Pitón (The Python), a moniker given to him by his brother because he felt “I weaved around the pitch like snake”.
Menotti stood by the midfielder in the build-up to the finals despite calls for his replacement. “I never defended his selection: he earned everything by dint of his character and talent,” the coach would say years later. And it was to be a judicious decision by Menotti, with Ardiles emerging as a key member of the side that triumphed at Argentina 1978, a tournament in which he managed to play all but one game despite carrying an injury throughout.
Breaking down barriers
Such was his impact at the showpiece event that he and fellow international Ricardo Villa were signed by Tottenham Hotspur for a reported £750,000 in what was a groundbreaking transfer at the time. “The idea was to play a few seasons and then return, but we never imagined the impact we would have. It’s said that our success paved the way for more foreign players to come to England, and there is some truth in that. I believe the influx would have happened anyway, but our accomplishments accelerated that process,” he says from his home in England.
Ardiles came to represent a whole era at Spurs, with whom he won the 1981 and 1982 FA Cups (although he would miss the latter final because of international duty) and the 1984 UEFA Cup. Over ten years at the club, ‘Ossie’ as he was affectionately known in England, played 311 times, netting 25 goals – quite a figure for someone “who rarely got into the box”. Today he remains an ambassador for the club and a proud member of the Tottenham Hotspur Hall of Fame.
Ardiles’s popularity in his adopted home hit new heights in 1981 thanks in no small part to his participation in two artistic projects. The first was his appearance in the blockbuster movie Escape to Victory alongside Sylvester Stallone, Michael Caine, Pele and Bobby Moore; and the second was his part in the video Ossie's Dream (Spurs are on their way to Wembley), a cup-final song recorded by the Spurs team alongside folk duo Chas & Dave that reached the dizzying heights of No5 in the nation’s pop charts.
The player’s international career ended when Argentina surrendered their world title at Spain 1982, an episode Ardiles calls “the biggest failure” of his career. After a loan-spell with French side Paris Saint-Germain in 1982/83, coinciding with the conflict between England and Argentina over the Falkland Islands, the player returned to Spurs. In 1987, towards the end of his time in North London, he briefly added the role of caretaker manager to his playing duties “as a favour to the club”.
When he finally bade farewell to White Hart Lane the following year, he enjoyed short spells with Blackburn Rovers and Queens Park Rangers as well as USA outfit Fort Lauderdale Strikers, before returning to England in 1989 to take up a permanent position of player-manager with second-division Swindon Town. “I picked myself for the first two games and then dropped myself (laughs)! Although the functions were compatible, I wasn’t going to play. Going into management made my retirement from playing less traumatic and it was natural transition,” he says.
Today
To date, Ardiles has coached no fewer than 14 teams in places as far flung as Mexico, Argentina, Syria, Israel, Croatia, Japan and Paraguay, where a brief spell with Cerro Porteno in 2008 marked his last managerial position. And while he has only tasted league title success in Japan, he is fondly remembered in his homeland for his time in charge of Racing Club and Huracan, both of which he steered clear of the relegation zone with a brand of entertaining and attacking football.
Nowadays, as well as being kept occupied by his grandchildren, Ardiles is busy in his role as ambassador for England’s bid to host the 2018 FIFA World Cup and that of TV football pundit. For all that, the 58-year-old is still keen to practice what he considers to be his vocation, as he tells us at the end of our interview. “What interests me is coaching. I’m aware that I haven’t had the same success in that field as I had as a player, but it is still my goal to take on the challenge of building a team, then getting it to play well and win things.”
Downcast looks a bit more solid with the help of Pluskal imo.
Sorry guys and @Downcast for not being able to contribute, could not get a wi fi signal at all. I'll try and answer some questions now.
I'll wait for Tuppet's feedback before making my decision on this one as it's fair to see his response to downcast arguments above.
On Mazzola issue -
Dunno how to put it any better than how it is put already. But you can call his position whatever name you want to give, playmaker or attacking midfielder or box to box etc. The point was to compare him with Gerrard for defensive contribution and there is ample evidence that Mazzola's defensive output was great. Also Gerrard's defensive know how is over rated anyway, he has massively underperformed whenever he's been called to defend meaningfully, yes he would fly in with some tackles but I don't see that as any advantage over Mazzola who is as complete a player as it gets.
On Midfield three -
There is no doubt that with Pluskal and Ardiles Downcast midfield is better in ball winning department. But I don't think I lack anything in that department. If anything I find Downcast's midfield combo less balanced as there is no proper playmaker to control the game. He is far too dependant on his attack to do magic, while my team should be able to control the game much better. Holding possession better and creating more chances.
On my attack vs Downcast defense -
So far the debate has been centerd on my defense vs his attack, but I am wondering what's downcast's stratagey to counter 2 of the greatest goal scorers in history and one of the greatest Argentine left winger.
Especially when my opponent is playing high defensive line against one of the history's fastest player in Bican.
On the subs:
Yeah sure your substitute is a pure striker, mine is Thomas freaking Muller I don't even want to start listing his accomplishments, but I feel totally safe, that if in a crunch game we need a goal, Muller is much more likely to score that than pretty much anyone else in the game today.
Dunno how to put it any better than how it is put already. But you can call his position whatever name you want to give, playmaker or attacking midfielder or box to box etc. The point was to compare him with Gerrard for defensive contribution and there is ample evidence that Mazzola's defensive output was great. Also Gerrard's defensive know how is over rated anyway, he has massively underperformed whenever he's been called to defend meaningfully, yes he would fly in with some tackles but I don't see that as any advantage over Mazzola who is as complete a player as it gets.
On Midfield three -
There is no doubt that with Pluskal and Ardiles Downcast midfield is better in ball winning department. But I don't think I lack anything in that department. If anything I find Downcast's midfield combo less balanced as there is no proper playmaker to control the game. He is far too dependant on his attack to do magic, while my team should be able to control the game much better. Holding possession better and creating more chances.
On my attack vs Downcast defense -
So far the debate has been centerd on my defense vs his attack, but I am wondering what's downcast's stratagey to counter 2 of the greatest goal scorers in history and one of the greatest Argentine left winger.
Especially when my opponent is playing high defensive line against one of the history's fastest player in Bican.
On the subs:
Yeah sure your substitute is a pure striker, mine is Thomas freaking Muller I don't even want to start listing his accomplishments, but I feel totally safe, that if in a crunch game we need a goal, Muller is much more likely to score that than pretty much anyone else in the game today.
The one not to be underrated - Felix Loutsau
In all this talk of great wingers in Downcast's squad, lets not forget that I am sporting one of the greatest on my squad. Felix Loustau is rightly known as one of Argentina's greatest wide players. A key member of the famous la maquina, Loustau has scored 101 goals in 365 appearances and 10 goals in 28 Argentina appearances. His career unfortunately coincided with the war period and he did not get the chance to perform at world cup stage, so the only way to judge his international credentials is in continental competitions and what credentials they are. Consecutive 3 Copa America wins with him scoring an impressive 4 goals from outside left position in the 1947 Copa America. Winner of 8 Argentina Permier division, "The Chaplin" was known for his incredible dribbling, crossing and acceleration.
some links on him (Mostly in spanish or french) -
http://elpais.com/diario/2003/01/07/agenda/1041894008_850215.html
http://edant.clarin.com/diario/2003/01/06/d-01301.htm
In all this talk of great wingers in Downcast's squad, lets not forget that I am sporting one of the greatest on my squad. Felix Loustau is rightly known as one of Argentina's greatest wide players. A key member of the famous la maquina, Loustau has scored 101 goals in 365 appearances and 10 goals in 28 Argentina appearances. His career unfortunately coincided with the war period and he did not get the chance to perform at world cup stage, so the only way to judge his international credentials is in continental competitions and what credentials they are. Consecutive 3 Copa America wins with him scoring an impressive 4 goals from outside left position in the 1947 Copa America. Winner of 8 Argentina Permier division, "The Chaplin" was known for his incredible dribbling, crossing and acceleration.
some links on him (Mostly in spanish or french) -
http://elpais.com/diario/2003/01/07/agenda/1041894008_850215.html
http://edant.clarin.com/diario/2003/01/06/d-01301.htm
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On the Albert - Mazzola issue -
At no point have I claimed that Albert is playing as a right winger or right wing forward. He is playing as a creative secondary striker which his best position. Its not uncommon for brilliant creative support strikers to drift wide esp when they are pacey and great dribblers like Albert. Your own Suarez does it all the time in Barca. Now Mazzola can run into Albert all the time, or he can follow the instructions leave the goal scoring to the front three and work his socks off in the midfield while ofcourse making runs to box. As game's one of the greatest legend I would bet my bucks on him doing exactly this in the current situation.
At no point have I claimed that Albert is playing as a right winger or right wing forward. He is playing as a creative secondary striker which his best position. Its not uncommon for brilliant creative support strikers to drift wide esp when they are pacey and great dribblers like Albert. Your own Suarez does it all the time in Barca. Now Mazzola can run into Albert all the time, or he can follow the instructions leave the goal scoring to the front three and work his socks off in the midfield while ofcourse making runs to box. As game's one of the greatest legend I would bet my bucks on him doing exactly this in the current situation.
Finally I just want to note that while Downcast has kept saying that he is playing the orange way, kept posting formations for the Netherlands, I don't think he has players to pull it off. Some of the most vital cogs in that total football machinery are replaced by much inferior versions. The results (esp against Perfumo's Argentina) were mostly the product of the genius of Cruyff, Neeskens, Krol & Van Hanegem. There is a lack of technical ability in the middle of the park for Downcast's squad to pull the total football off convincingly.
On Free kicks -
On Free kicks -
I like both teams to be fair. Downcast trio is excellent, so is Tuppet one, but the former gets the edge for me because it's a proven combo and I feel Suarez is more complete striker than Bican.
Next - Blanchflower is a deep lying playmaker but will need to do a lot of defending against Downcast midfielders. I think Downcast have the edge there in terms of ball wining. Gerrard will have a huge role here however to get the ball to the attackers, but having in mind the quality 3 there he will have a lot of options, I think Downcast shades here for me as well.
Tuppet's defensive line however is better than Downcast and he has a tactical advantage IMO in terms of style as he well noted a high line is something you'd like to be up against when you have Bican as a forward.
It's real tough game but Downcast team just shaded it for me.
Next - Blanchflower is a deep lying playmaker but will need to do a lot of defending against Downcast midfielders. I think Downcast have the edge there in terms of ball wining. Gerrard will have a huge role here however to get the ball to the attackers, but having in mind the quality 3 there he will have a lot of options, I think Downcast shades here for me as well.
Tuppet's defensive line however is better than Downcast and he has a tactical advantage IMO in terms of style as he well noted a high line is something you'd like to be up against when you have Bican as a forward.
It's real tough game but Downcast team just shaded it for me.
Nonsense. Would you question if Xabi Alonso or Scholes played in a 2 man midfield? Pirlo was a very specific case when Milan were experimenting with 4-3-2-1 (Kaka and Rui Costa ahead) and needed more steel in the middle. Making that an extrapolation for all DLPs is just weird.
I just think your 4-3-3 system requires - in theory - that Albert has to stay on the wing most of the time.
So, sorry if I am wrong, but I have the feeling he is looking for a freedom of movement like Mazzola.
We can't compare the style of play of Albert with Suarez: 2 very different players.
- Total football means: Hard pressing. That is why all my midfielders were chosen to win the battle midfield. Mazzola is not famous for his defensive activity
- Pluskal has to break the link Mazzola & Bican
- Hulshoff has to mark Bican and De Boer as a sweeper has to cover him
- My wingers will do the defensive job as they did between 1974 and 1978. Unlike Albert, they don't like to move in the middle of the park.
Congrats @Tuppet
I was split on this one. Very even match. Downcast's midfield was well set up to mostly contain Tuppet's. The Mazzola/Bican axis always looked tasty though, especially with Bican's sheer pace. And Tuppet made some great acquisitions there, not only in Mazzola, but others like Lousteau, Perfumo, Olsen. At the other end I fancied Rensenbrink to create some problems for Leandro and Suarez's aggressive pressing to limit Olsen's contribution on the ball. Fair play to Downcast for some heavy-duty posting here.
Thanks mate, as the score reflected it was a really close game which could have gone anywhere. Also thanks for carrying this thread all by yourself when I went awol.
Agreed, even if the colour coding was a fecking eyesore
. He was unlucky to lose after such a good effort in the match thread, and I think he nailed the hard pressing aspect of his tactics and the composition of his defence very well.