Remake Draft R16 | Paulscholes18 vs Tuppet

[Ecstatic]

Full backs, As Lahm and Zambrotta were taken thought it would be better to pick a top class attacking LB and a hard tackling RB who's good going forward, instead of two sub standard full backs who can play both lb and rb (Fabio and santon for example)

Midfield Vidal was the only Choice for Netzer's role, looks like we made a mistake going for Veron instead of picking Matuidi for the iron lung role

At first I thought Muller was just a top class poacher that's why I went for Ruud, after watching match footage I now knew he did a lot more off the ball.

Netzer is known for his passing skills & read of the game so Matuidi won't have been a good idea.

Maybe, Pirlo could have been an interesting option.

I'm impressed by the skills of Netzer

 

[paulscholes18]

Netzer is known for his passing skills & read of the game so Matuidi won't have been a good idea.

Maybe, Pirlo could have been an interesting option.

I'm impressed by the skills of Netzer

Meant Matuidi for Wimmer's role

 

[Joga Bonito]

Midfield Vidal was the only Choice for Netzer's role, looks like we made a mistake going for Veron instead of picking Matuidi for the iron lung role

Veron for Netzer and Vidal for Wimmer would have been more ideal imo. Well Matuidi would perhaps have been better for Wimmer as he was also capable of leaving his mark on the left hand channels/flanks too, relative to Vidal who was more centrally oriented.

 

[Ecstatic]

Meant Matuidi for Wimmer's role

I see. Someone with a high work-rate (similar to gattuso) to protect the star Netzer.

 

[Tuppet]

I am actually rather bemused by the criticism of Pirlo in Suarez role and I was thinking that I have secured the perfect replacement for Suarez . I would love to know why do people think he would not make a good replacement. Its not about this game, I am just curious to know if I am over rating Pirlo too much or not understanding Suarez role correctly etc.

Having said that I'll take another stab at justifying him. Its a hard task selling a modern player, and if you have already made your mind about him being a frail static playmaker, then there is not much I can do. But on his peak in his Milan days he was everything you would want a deep-ish playmaker playing for a direct counter attacking side to be - Great passer, direct, great dribbler with plenty of flair, not afraid to shoot from distance and a decent tackler.

To try and explain why Pirlo is a good fit for Suarez, I would use this excerpt from Enigma's excellent post, mostly because he's been very helpful by being specific and concrete on why Pirlo is not a good fit -

Pirlo/Suarez - as mentioned, Pirlo at his best is sitting behind 2 hard working midfielders and having more time on the ball. Suarez is a bit opposite. Pirlo matches Suarez very well in terms of passing, especially the long passes, but falls short in terms of dribble, surging forward, goal scoring threat and also the quick interplay and general position and role on the pitch.

Pirlo being only able to sit behind 2 hard working midfielders, like a static anchor and not surging forward is one of the myths which I would try and contradict. That is not to say that its completely false, its certainly true for example the Euro 2012 Pirlo, but not of the peak Pirlo at all.

Dribbling:
I can not believe anyone saying Pirlo is not a good dribbler, he is an absolutely world class dribbler, and is definitely not inferior to Suarez by any means. I wanted to do some gifs but there are way too many to chose from. Just check this video out, there are turns and flicks and feints to make any AMC proud -




Surging forward:
Ok yeah, Suarez is probably a bit more aggressive and attack minded, which stems from the fact that he was a 1 in 2 scoring attacking midfielder at Barcelona and even after he changed his position to sit deeper he was still a fair bit attacking. Pirlo also had a similar start as an attacking midfielder playing behind the front men, but he really developed into a great hub in the middle of the field and still retained his attacking verve more than say Xavi or Alonso. For example this beauty of a goal -

Or this sweet assist from the edge of the box -

And again there are way to many instances of him surging forward to gif, I would really recommend this video -


Goal scoring threat :
Suarez (for Inter) - 42 goals in 256 appearances.
Pirlo (for Milan) - 32 goals in 284 appearances.

Again Suarez is better but I don't believe this is a significant margin. In any case goal scoring threat would probably be the last reason for selection of deep lying playmaker in a team which has Ronaldo, Tevez, Di Maria and Silva up front.

Quick interplay:
Once again I can gif the hell out of Pirlo's beautiful interplay with his team mates, but if you've seen the videos I posted above I am sure you would agree that he was pretty quick in the interplay. Not Xavi quick again, but we need to remember that its a quick counter-attacking, deep-sitting, pressure-soaking team he is playing for. If you watch any Grande Inter big matches where catenaccio was in full flow, you will find that Suarez's long passing is much better and much more used than his short passing.

Role on pitch:
I am not sure about this one, both are playing the same role, that is of being the primary deep lying playmaker in the team.

Having said all this, I would like to re-iterate that in the tactic we are playing, having long range passing from the deep is probably the most important trait we are looking for. Our team would be pushed back on many instances and in those times we would need an accurate passing outlet to relieve the pressure. Also Pirlo is playing in front of 3 center back + a left back + a tough defensive mid + hard working right winger. If thats not the setting for him to shine, what would ?

Bonus:
We need to compensate for Corso's set piece ability as well. While David silva plays the role well enough in open play, He is no match to God's left foot when it comes to free kicks, Pirlo however is one of the finest set piece taker of our generation and so fulfil that role as well.

Also I don't think it needs to be stressed enough that Suarez is one of the best player of his generation and probably the best Spanish player of all time along with Xavi. When I say Pirlo is similar to Luisto, I mean as similar as you can get within draft pool and in the most relevant characteristics to the tactics.

Ok if you are not convinced so far, I don't think next bit is going to make any difference. But still -

Spoiler: Don't Open Bad Zuzu

Yeah yeah, I am ashamed.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Ok yeah, Suarez is probably a bit more aggressive and attack minded, which stems from the fact that he was a 1 in 2 scoring attacking midfielder at Barcelona and even after he changed his position to sit deeper he was still a fair bit attacking. Pirlo also had a similar start as an attacking midfielder playing behind the front men, but he really developed into a great hub in the middle of the field and still retained his attacking verve more than say Xavi or Alonso.

Pirlo's a briliant pick in the Suarez role IMO. The bolded part occured to me when you first picked him and there's a nice symetry with Suarez's development into a deeper-lying midfielder although its fecking depressing that I'm old enough to remember Pirlo's emergence as an AM...

I'm a fan of Sorin as Facchetti-lite too. He actually had a similar tendency to pop up in centre forward positions rather than hugging the touchline. Plenty of examples here that I'm too lazy to GIF:



On the other side, there's no one better than RVN to replicate Muller's principal attribute, but I'm not a fan of Hummels as Schwarzenbeck, and I can't fathom the decision to play Vidal in the Netzer role.

 

[Ecstatic]

This goal reminds me the 2nd goal of Italy against Belgium yesterday

 

[Ecstatic]

German teams seem to be more difficult to be recreated to be fair.

 

[Enigma_87]

@Tuppet I don't generally agree with Pirlo in Suarez role but you have done excellently to showcase your point and kudos for the effort. I think it's pretty hard to recreate the positions I've mentioned in your team so it will always spur some controversy as those players in that Inter team are pretty unique, but IMO you have done pretty well in terms of the general theme and especially in certain positions.

All in all I think you have an edge here.

 

[Deleted member 101472]

not over but surely congrats to @Tuppet . You are a couple reinforcements away from having arguably the besi side but with it being reverse order I do not see you getting the chance to pick those perfect replacements unfortunately.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Midfield Vidal was the only Choice for Netzer's role, looks like we made a mistake going for Veron instead of picking Matuidi for the iron lung role

You should have just swapped Veron and Vidal. Vidal was not even close to the type Netzer was and Veron would have been a better fit. Vidal would have fit the Wimmer role better imo.

 

[Deleted member 101472]

I am actually rather bemused by the criticism of Pirlo in Suarez role and I was thinking that I have secured the perfect replacement for Suarez . I would love to know why do people think he would not make a good replacement. Its not about this game, I am just curious to know if I am over rating Pirlo too much or not understanding Suarez role correctly etc.

Having said that I'll take another stab at justifying him. Its a hard task selling a modern player, and if you have already made your mind about him being a frail static playmaker, then there is not much I can do. But on his peak in his Milan days he was everything you would want a deep-ish playmaker playing for a direct counter attacking side to be - Great passer, direct, great dribbler with plenty of flair, not afraid to shoot from distance and a decent tackler.

To try and explain why Pirlo is a good fit for Suarez, I would use this excerpt from Enigma's excellent post, mostly because he's been very helpful by being specific and concrete on why Pirlo is not a good fit -


Pirlo being only able to sit behind 2 hard working midfielders, like a static anchor and not surging forward is one of the myths which I would try and contradict. That is not to say that its completely false, its certainly true for example the Euro 2012 Pirlo, but not of the peak Pirlo at all.

Dribbling:
I can not believe anyone saying Pirlo is not a good dribbler, he is an absolutely world class dribbler, and is definitely not inferior to Suarez by any means. I wanted to do some gifs but there are way too many to chose from. Just check this video out, there are turns and flicks and feints to make any AMC proud -




Surging forward:
Ok yeah, Suarez is probably a bit more aggressive and attack minded, which stems from the fact that he was a 1 in 2 scoring attacking midfielder at Barcelona and even after he changed his position to sit deeper he was still a fair bit attacking. Pirlo also had a similar start as an attacking midfielder playing behind the front men, but he really developed into a great hub in the middle of the field and still retained his attacking verve more than say Xavi or Alonso. For example this beauty of a goal -

Or this sweet assist from the edge of the box -

And again there are way to many instances of him surging forward to gif, I would really recommend this video -


Goal scoring threat :
Suarez (for Inter) - 42 goals in 256 appearances.
Pirlo (for Milan) - 32 goals in 284 appearances.

Again Suarez is better but I don't believe this is a significant margin. In any case goal scoring threat would probably be the last reason for selection of deep lying playmaker in a team which has Ronaldo, Tevez, Di Maria and Silva up front.

Quick interplay:
Once again I can gif the hell out of Pirlo's beautiful interplay with his team mates, but if you've seen the videos I posted above I am sure you would agree that he was pretty quick in the interplay. Not Xavi quick again, but we need to remember that its a quick counter-attacking, deep-sitting, pressure-soaking team he is playing for. If you watch any Grande Inter big matches where catenaccio was in full flow, you will find that Suarez's long passing is much better and much more used than his short passing.

Role on pitch:
I am not sure about this one, both are playing the same role, that is of being the primary deep lying playmaker in the team.

Having said all this, I would like to re-iterate that in the tactic we are playing, having long range passing from the deep is probably the most important trait we are looking for. Our team would be pushed back on many instances and in those times we would need an accurate passing outlet to relieve the pressure. Also Pirlo is playing in front of 3 center back + a left back + a tough defensive mid + hard working right winger. If thats not the setting for him to shine, what would ?

Bonus:
We need to compensate for Corso's set piece ability as well. While David silva plays the role well enough in open play, He is no match to God's left foot when it comes to free kicks, Pirlo however is one of the finest set piece taker of our generation and so fulfil that role as well.

Also I don't think it needs to be stressed enough that Suarez is one of the best player of his generation and probably the best Spanish player of all time along with Xavi. When I say Pirlo is similar to Luisto, I mean as similar as you can get within draft pool and in the most relevant characteristics to the tactics.

Ok if you are not convinced so far, I don't think next bit is going to make any difference. But still -

Spoiler: Don't Open Bad Zuzu

Yeah yeah, I am ashamed.

That first video of Pirlo, 47 seconds

 

[Deleted member 101472]

@Tuppet watching your video, i'm not sure if I even know the difference, but would you say that dribbling and beating a man are the same? When I think of dribbling I picture the Utd version of Ronaldo or Messi, taking many touches of the ball but advancing pretty far with the ball. That video of Pirlo, most of the clips are one specific sway/touch to beat his man. In many ways its significantly more effective and a much more efficient way of dribbling, I just don't know if it falls under "pure" dribbling.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

You should have just swapped Veron and Vidal. Vidal was not even close to the type Netzer was and Veron would have been a better fit. Vidal would have fit the Wimmer role better imo.

Yes, this would have been the big one for most voters, I think.

There were problems elsewhere too, but that was the big one.

Vidal would have worked well enough in the Wimmer role (having the engine, not least, which is very important) - but the main problem is that it's a clear case of mistaken identity, so to speak, with Veron being a plausible candidate for the Netzer role but a downright poor fit for Wimmer.

Oh well - nuff said about that. I'm sorry if I've come across as overly negative here - but it seems like the manager actually agrees with most of the criticism, and has taken it the right way.

Tuppet got kind of an easy ride here, since most of the criticism was about his opponent's choices: He'll be under more scrutiny in the next round, I'll bet.

 

[Ecstatic]

any excuse to post this goal, but this guy in the future may be a not bad shout for Facchetti

Umtiti is a central defender and I would be surprised to see him excellent as a LB imho

 

[harms]

Had problems seeing the formations yesterday so didn't vote Would've probably gone for Tuppet anyway. Vidal - Veron should've been switched and scholes' CB pairing is weird.

During the drafting I questioned Pirlo's pick, but after some thought I couldn't find a better replacement for him (Iniesta is an interesting shout though). Even if there is a notable difference in their work ethics, he justifies his pick with similarities on the ball

 

[Deleted member 101472]

Umtiti is a central defender and I would be surprised to see him excellent as a LB imho

He has spent a fairly large part of his young career as a left back. This is speculation at its greatest ( saying he could get anywhere near Facchetti) but he's an extremely talented defender. Has a fair repetoire of excellent goals ( mostly coming from left back position) and some decent cross assists too.

 

[Tuppet]

@Tuppet watching your video, i'm not sure if I even know the difference, but would you say that dribbling and beating a man are the same? When I think of dribbling I picture the Utd version of Ronaldo or Messi, taking many touches of the ball but advancing pretty far with the ball. That video of Pirlo, most of the clips are one specific sway/touch to beat his man. In many ways its significantly more effective and a much more efficient way of dribbling, I just don't know if it falls under "pure" dribbling.

So IMO this is basically the difference in the way playmaker dribble and goal scorer dribble. I guess the idea is that the closer to goal you go starting from deep positions, the more people you have to beat. So playmakers like Pirlo, Xavi etc would beat a player or two and then try to find another player to pass. While I think there is no fundamental difference technically in the way say Pirlo beat a player to say someone like Messi beats a player, but I think the objective is different. Pirlo/Xavi are IMO trying to create space for themselves by beating the player to play a perfect pass, while likes of Messi and Ronaldo are beating the players to move the ball forward and get as close to goal as possible, where they can shoot or play a final pass.

These are all generalizations though, and heavily depends on the style of team and individual players. Then there are advanced playmakers like Zidane and Iniesta who would do both. Suarez probably fall in this category.

Alright coming back to Pirlo's dribbling issue and surging forward to attack, here's an interesting snippet from 2012/13 (sadly Squawka does not have stats before that) -

Here you can see the difference in much more static (defensively better) playmaker Carrick and Pirlo, esp in Successful Take ons (Which I understand is number of time you dribbled past),which is about 5 times more than Carrick and twice as much as Xavi. He is much closer to Iniesta than say Carrick or even Xavi and this is peak (UEFA Europe's best player) Iniesta. Earlier Pirlo was even more progressive.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Suarez was always bound to be one of the harder players to remake imo. For what it's worth, I would say he is a fine blend of both Xavi and Iniesta - a top notch playmaker and a versatile, industrious and skillful package. There is no doubt about his playmaking prowess and he's one of the greatest ever to set foot on the pitch imo, but it was his all-round game which set him apart from his standard playmaking contemporaries.

I've written several comprehensive posts (more like love letters given he's a favourite of mine) extolling his all-round game and tactical nous, but yeah he is truly a phenomenal player no doubt.

During the drafting I questioned Pirlo's pick, but after some thought I couldn't find a better replacement for him (Iniesta is an interesting shout though). Even if there is a notable difference in their work ethics, he justifies his pick with similarities on the ball

Agreed with this, and I have at times unfavourably compared Pirlo with Suarez when people 'just' made out the Spaniard to be a limited playmaker etc. Ultimately though, it's pivotal to recreate Suarez's sheer quality of the ball and Pirlo does the trick. Think Veron might have been a slightly better and a more dynamic pick myself but Pirlo is a good enough as it stands.

Btw I recall you posting the youtube link for the 1964 final between USSR and Spain somewhere but can't find it now. I downloaded that match but don't have it with me right now.

 

[Ecstatic]

He has spent a fairly large part of his young career as a left back. This is speculation at its greatest ( saying he could get anywhere near Facchetti) but he's an extremely talented defender. Has a fair repetoire of excellent goals ( mostly coming from left back position) and some decent cross assists too.

He is an excellent defender. Barcelona won't have Marquinhos so seems to very interested in acquiring him according some reports.

@Tuppet I am now OK for Pirlo.

@paulscholes18 Next time you will be successful

 

[Ecstatic]

Suarez was always bound to be one of the harder players to remake imo. For what it's worth, I would say he is a fine blend of both Xavi and Iniesta - a top notch playmaker and a versatile, industrious and skillful package. There is no doubt about his playmaking prowess and he's one of the greatest ever to set foot on the pitch imo, but it was his all-round game which set him apart from his standard playmaking contemporaries.

I've written several comprehensive posts (more like love letters given he's a favourite of mine) extolling his all-round game and tactical nous, but yeah he is truly a phenomenal player no doubt.



Agreed with this, and I have at times unfavourably compared Pirlo with Suarez when people 'just' made out the Spaniard to be a limited playmaker etc. Ultimately though, it's pivotal to recreate Suarez's sheer quality of the ball and Pirlo does the trick. Think Veron might have been a slightly better and a more dynamic pick myself but Pirlo is a good enough as it stands.

Btw I recall you posting the youtube link for the 1964 final between USSR and Spain somewhere but can't find it now. I downloaded that match but don't have it with me right now.

@Joga Bonito

 

[paulscholes18]

Congratulations @Tuppet

 

[Joga Bonito]

@Joga Bonito

Cheers.