The problem for me about most religious debate is that it tends towards discussing what colour of glitter the fairies at the bottom of the garden are sporting on their wings this week. In the end I just want to live in a society free from religious influence instead of which I live in one awash with the stuff.
Religion, what's the point?
- Thread starter TheRedFlag
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran are here to talk about a frustrating 2 points dropped at Crystal Palace. They then discuss the regeneration of Old Trafford. Finally, Nik is joined by special guest Michael Statham from the Football Oranje podcast - who gives us a more in depth look at our EL opposition FC Twente, and then runs through the (many) Dutch connections currently at United.
That's a velociraptor for the love of god!
I can deal with spirituality when it's entirely personal, when it turns into a circle jerk, clusterfeck, control mechanism for the stupid which between them all actively discriminates against virtually everyone I begin to have a problem.
Can't a velocirapter have Rex as his Christian name?
I would prefer a banana split in the desert, but that's me.
Religion give you "hope".
I agree with you that Muslims consider the Quran to be his true miracle. And you seem to agree that the other miracles cannot be used to prove that Mohammed is a prophet. It however hurts his credibility since the nature of those miracles are no different than that of the countless other false prophets/tales that we know of. In other words, Islam is just another religion in the massive family of religions and shows nothing that can give us the impression that it is the true message of some God. You are right, let us focus on Quran since it is something we can study and debate. But we should also study it in the most neutral possible way. Let's not try to find twisted interpretations or metaphors when there is a simple explanation.
The article has been debated some pages ago. After reading the article, it turned out that clay is believed to only have helped form the early forms of cells and transport RNA into them. The true building blocks of humans are amino-acids which were formed due to chemical reactions in a certain set of conditions. (75% of dry body weight). However, let's try to find a simple explanation to the verse. Let's compare it for instance with what other religions said about humans' creation :
Ancient Greeks
http://edweb.sdsu.edu/people/bdodge/scaffold/GG/creationMan.html
Compare this to :
I don't see anything wrong with the translation (tell me if you do). However, do you see how close it resembles the ancient greeks version of humans' creation ? It is far simpler to claim that Quran's authors were inspired by the Ancient Greeks (and others) rather than make the hypothesis of a creator and all what surrounds it.
Two verses :
"والارض مددناها" means the "And the Earth we have spread out". The word مددناها from the verb (madada) means elongate or lenghten. The word "earth" here does not indicate the "ground" but Earth as a planet because the context of this verse is a description of the universe. A few verses before :
Again, if you have any remarks regarding the translation, feel free to tell me so.
The second verse :
سطحت (from Sataha) means level or flatten. Pretty clear translation. Again, the context is a general description of the planet and the sky :
There is not a single mention of a round earth in the Quran which contains a lot of universe description. Again, let us formulate the simplest conclusion. The context of the Quran's apparition is 7th century Arabic peninsula. Hardly the scientific leading region in its time. It is more realistic to claim that those who wrote the Quran ignored the reality of Earth's shape rather than claim that God for whatever reason did not want to reveal the true shape of the Earth.
I'd like to add this here for you. The link I gave you contains the truth about the marriage. I asked the Imam at my mosque today about the age, and he said that it's not plausible or logical that she was 9, based on the evidence. If you would like the evidence, look at the link I posted a couple of pages back. However, I do maintain my stance that I won't disregard the opinions and beliefs of people over 1400 years ago, just because it doesn't fit your standards or my standards. Anyway, off the top of my head, there is one evidence, which more or less debunks this myth that she was 9, which means that you won't consider the Prophet a child molester. In war, I remember I was told that she used to carry the water, or something like that. Children used to never do that, remember it's not allowed in Islam. Most are in agreement that she was a teenager (mid-teens), around 17.
Werewolf, you're wrong. Here's a better summary:
"
Q. Does the Quran say that the Earth is Flat?
Qur’an says that Allah has made the earth for you as a carpet. This gives an indication that the earth is flat. Does this not contradict established modern science?
A. 1. Earth made as a carpet
The question refers to a verse from the Qur’an in Surah Nuh:
“And Allah has made the earth for you as a carpet (spread out).” [Al-Qur’an 71:19]
But the sentence in the above verse is not complete. It continues in the next verse, explaining the previous verse. It says:
“That ye may go about therein, in spacious roads.” [Al-Qur’an 71:20]
A similar message is repeated in Surah TaHa:
“He Who has made for you the earth like a carpet spread out; has enabled you to go about therein by roads (and channels)....” [Al-Qur’an 20:53]
The surface of the earth i.e. earth’s crust is less than 30 miles in thickness and is very thin as compared to the radius of the earth which is about 3750 miles. The deeper layers of the earth are very hot, fluid and hostile to any form of life. The earth’s crust is a solidified shell on which we can live. The Qur’an rightly refers to it like a carpet spread out, so that we can travel along its roads and paths.
2. Carpet can also be spread on other than an absolute flat surface
Not a single verse of the Qur’an says that the earth is flat. The Qur’an only compares the earth’s crust with a carpet. Some people seem to think that carpet can only be put on an absolute flat surface. It is possible to spread a carpet on a large sphere such as the earth. It can easily be demonstrated by taking a huge model of the earth’s globe covering it with a carpet. Carpet is generally put on a surface, which is not very comfortable to walk on. The Quran describes the earth crust as a carpet, without which human beings would not be able to survive because of the hot, fluid and hostile environment beneath it. The Qur’an is thus not only logical, it is mentioning a scientific fact that was discovered by geologists centuries later.
3. Earth has been spread out
Similarly, the Qur’an says in several verses that the earth has been spread out.
“And We have spread out the (spacious) earth: how excellently We do spread out!” [Al-Qur’an 51:48]
Similarly the Qur’an also mentions in several other verses that the earth is an expanse:
“Have We not made the earth as a wide expanse” “And the mountains as pegs?” [Al-Qur’an 78:6-7]
None of these verses of the Qur’an contain even the slightest implication that the earth is flat. It only indicates that the earth is spacious and the reason for this spaciousness of the earth is mentioned. The Glorious Qur’an says:
“O My servants who believe! truly. spacious is My Earth: therefore serve ye Me –(And Me alone)!” [Al-Qur’an 29:56]
Therefore none can give the excuse, that he could not do good and was forced to do evil because of the surroundings and circumstances.
4. Earth is geo-spherical in shape
(Apologist argument)
The Qur’an mentions the actual shape of the earth in the following verse:
“And we have made the earth egg shaped”. [Al-Qur’an 79:30]
The Arabic word Dahaha means egg shaped. It also means an expanse. Dahaha is derived from Duhiya which specifically refers to the egg of an ostrich which is geospherical in shape, exactly like the shape of the earth.
Thus the Qur’an and modern established science are in perfect harmony."
Edit - Thought I'd explain #4 argument. Basically it's the apologist argument. The point of the next couple of posts was to show how EASILY it is to twist things without context. That was to show Werewolf how absurd some of his arguments were, given that the context wasn't considered. I decided to go for the generic egg argument that doesn't make sense (to me anyway) because it's something that demonstrates how crucial context is. So anyone who reads my posts debating the egg argument, should note that it was done for a reason, rather than it being my view.
"
Q. Does the Quran say that the Earth is Flat?
Qur’an says that Allah has made the earth for you as a carpet. This gives an indication that the earth is flat. Does this not contradict established modern science?
A. 1. Earth made as a carpet
The question refers to a verse from the Qur’an in Surah Nuh:
“And Allah has made the earth for you as a carpet (spread out).” [Al-Qur’an 71:19]
But the sentence in the above verse is not complete. It continues in the next verse, explaining the previous verse. It says:
“That ye may go about therein, in spacious roads.” [Al-Qur’an 71:20]
A similar message is repeated in Surah TaHa:
“He Who has made for you the earth like a carpet spread out; has enabled you to go about therein by roads (and channels)....” [Al-Qur’an 20:53]
The surface of the earth i.e. earth’s crust is less than 30 miles in thickness and is very thin as compared to the radius of the earth which is about 3750 miles. The deeper layers of the earth are very hot, fluid and hostile to any form of life. The earth’s crust is a solidified shell on which we can live. The Qur’an rightly refers to it like a carpet spread out, so that we can travel along its roads and paths.
2. Carpet can also be spread on other than an absolute flat surface
Not a single verse of the Qur’an says that the earth is flat. The Qur’an only compares the earth’s crust with a carpet. Some people seem to think that carpet can only be put on an absolute flat surface. It is possible to spread a carpet on a large sphere such as the earth. It can easily be demonstrated by taking a huge model of the earth’s globe covering it with a carpet. Carpet is generally put on a surface, which is not very comfortable to walk on. The Quran describes the earth crust as a carpet, without which human beings would not be able to survive because of the hot, fluid and hostile environment beneath it. The Qur’an is thus not only logical, it is mentioning a scientific fact that was discovered by geologists centuries later.
3. Earth has been spread out
Similarly, the Qur’an says in several verses that the earth has been spread out.
“And We have spread out the (spacious) earth: how excellently We do spread out!” [Al-Qur’an 51:48]
Similarly the Qur’an also mentions in several other verses that the earth is an expanse:
“Have We not made the earth as a wide expanse” “And the mountains as pegs?” [Al-Qur’an 78:6-7]
None of these verses of the Qur’an contain even the slightest implication that the earth is flat. It only indicates that the earth is spacious and the reason for this spaciousness of the earth is mentioned. The Glorious Qur’an says:
“O My servants who believe! truly. spacious is My Earth: therefore serve ye Me –(And Me alone)!” [Al-Qur’an 29:56]
Therefore none can give the excuse, that he could not do good and was forced to do evil because of the surroundings and circumstances.
4. Earth is geo-spherical in shape
(Apologist argument)
The Qur’an mentions the actual shape of the earth in the following verse:
“And we have made the earth egg shaped”. [Al-Qur’an 79:30]
The Arabic word Dahaha means egg shaped. It also means an expanse. Dahaha is derived from Duhiya which specifically refers to the egg of an ostrich which is geospherical in shape, exactly like the shape of the earth.
Thus the Qur’an and modern established science are in perfect harmony."
Edit - Thought I'd explain #4 argument. Basically it's the apologist argument. The point of the next couple of posts was to show how EASILY it is to twist things without context. That was to show Werewolf how absurd some of his arguments were, given that the context wasn't considered. I decided to go for the generic egg argument that doesn't make sense (to me anyway) because it's something that demonstrates how crucial context is. So anyone who reads my posts debating the egg argument, should note that it was done for a reason, rather than it being my view.
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Haha ! I admit that this is the first time I have heard such an explanation ! This is even more far-fetched than anything else. So those 7th century people were dumb enough to not understand/comprehend that the Earth is round, but they are smart enough to know that the Earth has several deeper layers some with very hot fluids ? Why do you keep on asking those people different levels of sophistication depending on how far-fetched you need your interpretations to be in order to hide the inaccuracies ? There is no mention of a crust in the Quran. When people talk about carpets the first thing that come in their minds is a flat one, not one covering a spherical shape.
You are mistaking the superficy with the shape. A very small planet could be characterized as "not very wide" and a very big planet could be characterized as "wide". Those properties are orthogonal. The keyword here is "spread out". In some of those verses, the original arabic version uses also "bed" as an image. All of these conjure up images of a flat Earth which is certainly what those 7th century people in the Arabic desert thought.
Oh I was waiting for this one ! Here comes the Arabic lesson :
The word "Dahaha" is not derived from "Duhiya". The vast majority of verbs and nouns in Arabic are derived from roots that contain 3 consonants (very few of 4 or 5 consonants). These consonants are called the original letters (Al Horouf al asliya). Starting from the root, you can form words/verbs by adding new letters. For example the word for library is "Maktaba" which comes from the root "Kataba"
First of all the word "Duhiya" does not even mean the egg of an ostrich. Here is what the book "Lisan Al Arab" has to say about it :
Now, what is the root of Duhiya ? It is Daha (دَحَا) which various Arabic dictionaries define as :
Al Qamoos Al Muheet
Al Waseet
"It is easier to fool people than to convince them they have been fooled" -Mark Twain
How true that is.
How true that is.
What defines a religion? Isn't it just an ideology, a collection of beliefs which you accept based on faith.
I have already agreed (even suggested) to remove all the 'mambo jumbo' from this discussion so, why the unnecessary remarks?.
Amino:
I can't answer the Amino Acid thingy as I am almost illitrate in the field, sorry.
Greek Mythology:
1. How would he (Mohammad) know about it? The closest 'knowledge' to him was from the Jews and Christians. The only way, from history, I can guess is if he came across it in the Levant as a trader and even then someone must have told him about it and then he must have brought that person back with him to teach him what.. Latin? or whatever language that book was written in at the time. He was illiterate in his own language.
2. Also they (Ancient Greeks) may have had a messenger? Muslims believe that God sent messengers to many places and not just the ME.
"والارض مددناها" means the "And the Earth we have spread out":
Thanks. I know in this instance it's Earth and not ground just from the word above. There are other verses (hint: Night and Day) but let's try and look at this one. If I'm standing and looking at the horizon, how does the earth appear? spread out right? Now if you do the same thing at any point on earth it would still look spread out right? Why is that?
This is only possible if the earth was round. If you keep walking straight you'll come back to the same point. And if you stop along the way and look ahead, it would still appear spread out at any point of that straight line. But, if the earth was a cube or triangular in shape, you will always reach an edge/endpoint and hopefully not fall off.
So yes the Arabian peninsula wasn't a beacon of knowledge and wisdom at that time and maybe so today. But almost straight after with the aid of this book changed many aspects of human life.
Have we done evolution yet? Or is there more fun to be had?
Page 59 is where Danny tried to claim that the Quran is compatible with evolution.
Sorry for the remarks but I was (and I still am) under the impression that you were considering the Quran to be the true message of some God and Mohammed to be his genuine messenger. However, if we agree that Islam is just another religion and if you want to discuss its impact on the Arabs, I will leave the supernatural part out of the discussion.
No need to be sorry if this discussion can push you to read more on the scientific version of creation.
First thing is this version of creation was not only present in ancient Greek mythology. You can find it also in early Mesopotamian religions such as the Assyro-Babilonian, the Canaan or the Sumerian religions. It really is a common theme among religions worldwide.
Also, it is not impossible that Muhammad may have learnt a thing or two from the Greeks. One of his companions was Al Harith Ibn Kalada who was an Arab physician and who studied medicine in Gundeshapur (Persia) where many Greek philosophers fled the religious persecution of the Byzantine empire.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Harith_ibn_Kalada
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academy_of_Gondishapur
As for your second point, the Greeks did not have a messenger. At least not as in Abrahamic religions. Ancient Greeks had a significantly different view of religion (polytheism,...) so I doubt God sent them any messenger.
The Night and Day verse shows one thing : God (or the guy who wrote the Quran) did not know about people living in the poles.
If you are walking the earth would not appear to be spread out because you would see things gradually popping up in the horizon due to the curvature of the Earth. However, let see what Allah has to say about it (I will let you make your own conclusions):
Sure it changed many aspects of human life for the Arabs living in the Arabian peninsula and for those who would later suffer from the violent religious expansion of Islam as for any other imperialist religion. Saying that the Quran wasn't influential would be lying, saying that it brought something new to the table would be lying too.
Bold.
Well that defence appears to be a lie dealt with half way down in the second link.
There isn't any controversy about her age really, just that now we know better it makes for difficult reading and it is impossible to defend morally. It begs the bigger question how can we know better than someone who spoke to god about such matters?
Take a look at this with regards to your early puberty defence and let me know what you think.
1st link
http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Aisha_Age_of_Consummation
Or from the link provided by the poster above re other attempts to deny the undeniable truth.
"2nd link
http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Refutation_of_Modern_Muslim_Apologetics_Against_Aishas_Age
I actually had this response typed out earlier, but wanted to post the article first, to see if you understood the linguistics and so on. Well...
We all know the Earth is not flat and is round, more spherical in shape. I don't know why you responded to the Greek part, as it wasn't really relevant, and it did say "may", which respects possibility.
First off, Dahaha has a couple of meanings, one of which happens to be expanded, which is also scientifically true.
Yusuf Ali:
[079:030] And the earth, moreover, hath He extended (to a wide expanse);
Dr. Munir Munshey:
[079:030] And after that, He spread out the earth.
Transliteration:
[079:030] Waal-arda baAAda thalika dahaha
Arabic (from right to left):
79:30 والارض بعد ذلك دحاها
Sher Ali:
[079:030] And the earth, along with it, HE has spread forth.
Shakir:
[079:030] And the earth, He expanded it after that.
Pickthall:
[079:030] And after that He spread the earth,
Sale:
[079:030] After this, He stretched out the earth,
Muhammad Al-Hilali & Muhsin Khan:
[079:030] And after that He spread the earth;
Palmer:
[079:030] and the earth after that He did stretch out.
Arberry:
[079:030] and the earth-after that He spread it out,
Khalifa:
[079:030] He made the earth egg-shaped.
Rodwell:
[079:030] And afterwards stretched forth the earth, -
Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, said the following Hadith (saying):
Narrated Abu Huraira: "I heard Allah's Apostle saying, "I have been sent with Jawami al-Kalim (i.e., the shortest expression carrying the widest meanings), and I was made victorious with awe (caste into the hearts of the enemy), and while I was sleeping, the keys of the treasures of the earth were brought to me and were put in my hand." Muhammad said, Jawami'-al-Kalim means that Allah expresses in one or two statements or thereabouts the numerous matters that used to be written in the books revealed before (the coming of) the Prophet. (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Interpretation of Dreams, Volume 9, Book 87, Number 141)"
The hadith above is for those who wonder why the Qur'an isn't simple. Imagine, over 1400 years ago, the Prophet (PBUH) telling people, who wanted to kill him, that the Earth was egg-shaped? They would want his head cut off. The Arabic word dahaha also falls into the category above, as it has multiple meanings, one of which is egg. There are many dictionaries that regard "dah" as circular in shape, which you seemed to have missed.
Dr. Zaghlool Al-Naggar, one of the top seven Geologists in the World, said about the "dahaha" in question:
الدلالة اللغوية لدحو الأرض
(الدحو) في اللغة العربية هو المد والبسط والإلقاء, يقال دحا) الشيء( يدحوه)( دحوا) أي بسطه ومده, أو ألقاه ودحرجه, ويقال دحا) المطر الحصي عن وجه الأرض أي دحرجه وجرفه, ويقال: مر الفرس( يدحو)( دحوا) إذا جر يده علي وجه الأرض فيدحو ترابها و(مدحي) النعامة هو موضع بيضها, و(أدحيها) موضعها الذي تفرخ فيه.
Evidence of "dahu" (ALL these meanings apply to Earth). The "basic" translation of this is that "dahu" in Arabic means to extend or even out. The "daha" can mean evened out, extended, or Allah "threw" it and rolled it out. Remember this: "The rain daha the stones from the face of the earth", which means rolled it and washed it away. So, as you can see, it means to extend, roll, even out, or causing to become egg-shaped. Also: "It is also said: "The horse passed by yad'hu dahwan," which means he is beating his foot on the ground and yad'hu its sand. Also, the ostrich's mad'hi means its laying of its eggs, and "ad'hiha" is the nest where its chicks are born." More importantly, I can't believe you quoted a translation that says ostriches don't have nests. Really?
Also:
According to: (and many more)
"1. Lisan Al-Arab dictionary [1] , Book 2, Pages 215-218.
2. Lisan Al-Arab dictionary [1] , Book 8, Pages 236-238.
3. Al-Muheet dictionary [2], Page 1179.
4. Al-Muajam Al-Waseet dictionary [3], Pages 272-274.
5. Al-Mawrid dictionary Arabic-English section [4], Page 537.
6. Arabic-English dictionary the Hans Wehr dictionary [6], Page 273.
Daha دحا means:
دحا (daha): دفعه و رمى به (dafa'aahu wa ramaa bih) Caused it to move, pushed it, or threw it.
ويقذفون من كل جانب دحورا ولهم عذاب واصب (The Noble Quran, 37:8-9) And they're cast away from every side, repulsed, for they are under a perpetual penalty.
دحا الصبي المِدحاةَََ أي دفع الصبي المِدحاةَََ Daha the boy the rolling toy, means the boy pushed the rolling toy.
دحرجَ (dahraja): to roll, roll along, to roll down.
ا (daha): و في حديث أبي رافع: كنت أُلاعب الحسن و الحسين, رضوان الله عليهما, بالمداحي, هي احجار أمثال القِرصة
In the Hadith of Abi Rafiaa': I used to play with Al-Hasan and Al-Hussein, may Allah Almighty be pleased with them, with AL-MADAAHI, which means STONES that look like AL-QIRASAH.
دحا (daha): المداحي هي احجار أمثال القِرصة Al-madaahi are stones that resemble AL-QIRASAH."
There is more, but that should do it. Re Carpet section:
Yusuf Ali:
[020:053] "He Who has, made for you the earth like a carpet spread out; has enabled you to go about therein by roads (and channels); and has sent down water from the sky." With it have We produced diverse pairs of plants each separate from the others.
Transliteration:
[020:053] Allathee jaAAala lakumu al-arda mahdan wasalaka lakum feeha subulan waanzala mina alssama-i maan faakhrajna bihi azwajan min nabatin shatta
Arabic (from right to left):
20:53 الذي جعل لكم الارض مهدا وسلك لكم فيها سبلا وانزل من السماء ماء فاخرجنا به ازواجا من نبات شتى
"According to: (and many more)
1. Lisan Al-Arab dictionary [1] , Book 2, Page 790.
2. Al-Muheet dictionary [2], Page 303.
3. Al-Muajam Al-Waseet dictionary [3], Page 889.
4. Al-Mawrid dictionary Arabic-English section [4], Page 1132.
5. Al-Mawrid dictionary English-Arabic section [4], Page 227.
6. Arabic-English dictionary the Hans Wehr dictionary [6], Page 928.
Yes, مهد (mahd) does mean to spread out. But it also means:
مهد (mahd): و مَهْدُ الصبي هو موضعه الذي يُهيّأ له و يُوَطّأ لينام فيه the mahd of the baby is the place that is prepared for him, and is rocked back and forth يُوطّأ to put him to sleep.
ممهّد (mumahhad): Balanced in temperature:
و ماء ممهّد: لا حار و لا بارد Water that is mumahhad means that the water is neither cold nor hot.
مهد (mahd): cradle. It is said: من المهد إلى اللّحد from cradle to grave."
I've done a lot of research, and if that doesn't sort out your query, then I don't know what will. I have quoted dictionaries, too, as opposed to the article I originally gave you. And again, this proves the terminology is at an advanced level in the Qur'an, it isn't meant to be simple, which is why I laughed when people think it's literally a carpet, or what was even more funnier when someone translated thamarat to fruit.
Sorry, mate, but I can't debate with someone who has linked me to another paedophile argument, which has been destroyed many times. It's so lazy. All I'll say is... Look at the first link I posted as a reply to you and start calculating the years in between events, then it will all make sense.
Thank goodness that we have the major secular world governments collecting personal data from the entire population so they can save us from this dangerous religion bollocks. Plus they do it so gently you don't even know about it. Unlike those J-Witnesses banging on my door and asking me directly in my face all sorts of personal questions. No words to describe how dangerous they are.
And the world record for irrelevance goes to....
Mihajlovic!
A truly stellar performance. (But at least funny).
Mihajlovic!
A truly stellar performance. (But at least funny).
This Mihajlovic fella is a bit annoying. Repeatedly coming here and making some irrelevant comments with the same (no) point.
Really ?
What are you talking about ? What Greek part ?
The word "dahaha" is a verb which root is "dahaa" which means "to spread out". It does not mean "egg" ! It is not even a name ! It's a verb to which we appended the last "ha" to refer to the Earth. Do you know your Arabic ?
Show me where "dah" is regarded a circular shape ?
Concerning your translations, only one translates "dahaha" as "made egg-shaped" and that's Khalifa. Alright, let's see who this guy is :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rashad_Khalifa
Didn't you stress the need to rely on muslim scholars who have studied years of Islamic education ? But let's continue...
Well, this escalated quickly, we are on another level of bullshit here... Sure you still want to rely on his claims ?
The vast majority of the scholars consider that word to mean spread out and that's what the Quran means. It is compatible with the view of the universe back then (at least one) and it is compatible with the hadith (see the one about Du AlQarnayn in one of my posts above).
One of the top seven Geologists in the World ? Who did the ranking ? How did they do it ? What does that even mean ?
First of all the guy is a Geologist, so again not really your typical Muslim scholar. Also, he seems quite biased to me. And full of bullshit too...:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zaghloul_El-Naggar
You know that there is a contradiction between even out and roll right ? You can say that "The rain daha the stones" means "The rain removed the stones" and that would make sense because if you want to even out some place, you would remove the stones and such. But the jump between remove/throw and roll is absolutely baseless. That's not only far-fetched, that's just a plain contradiction. There is a difference between throwing something and making it egg-shaped. You take your quotes from people who clearly have an agenda and who try to twist the definitions to suit their claims. I gave you definitions taken from approved dictionaries who specifically refer to the usage in the Quran/Hadith as meaning "to spread out". You will just have to accept it.
Some of those mean throw/push which I have discussed earlier.
The last two ones show that again you don't know what you are quoting. Do you know what "AL-QIRASAH" mean ? They are "disks". And guess what ? Those are spread out and are circular in 2 dimensions, not 3. You know, something like this ...
That's spread out, and looks like a Qurs (singular of Al-Qirasah).
And again to show that you don't know what you are quoting :
Remember my discussion on Arabic roots. Well this is one of those that have four consonants. And guess what ? This has nothing to do with "Dahaha" which comes from the root "Daha". Those are different roots, different meanings.
I don't know what you are trying to prove here. So you took the word "mahd" and tried to find as many explanations as you can and you chose to ignore the ones which seem to suit the verse. "Mahd" means the place that is prepared for the baby and that place should be even out so the first two defitions are compatible. The one which seems to stick out is "mumahhad". Again, do you know your Arabic ? "Mumahhad" is what we call a "Mafuul bih". You can turn each verb, starting from the root, to refer to the object on which the action is done. The word which you have as a resul is called "Mafuul bih". "Mumahhad" here refers to anything on which the verb "mahada" can apply. It could be temperature, it could be the earth, it could be anything else. "Mumahhad" does not mean literally "balanced in temperature". When you use is with water (ماء) it can have that meaning. It's like if you are saying that "prepared" means "balanced in temperature" just because you can say "prepared water" which can mean in some context "balance it in temperature".
I think you should review the way you approach these things. You seem so biased that you don't see how far-fetched your explanations are.
Werewolf, you're trying to twist things, just like you based your views on Islam on the society you were brought up in, so all Muslims are bad people. I can speak fluent Arabic, I find it a bit insulting that you think you know more about Arabic, but you clearly don't. I already explained the linguistics and how words have more than one meaning, yet after ALL that evidence, you still can't see how black and white your view is? I even quoted Khalifa (to show I am not biased, and I find it funny you have to show me who he is through a Wikipedia page), who is not right in the head. Maybe Abbsta or Sultan can add anything I haven't, but as far as I'm concerned, I provided a very good argument. You're just being silly now... You do know that it was Muslims who introduced the concept of the Earth being round in Europe, right? So that basically nullifies your argument, and if you don't believe this, then look at the words, and if you still don't believe this, look at the multiple meanings, and if you still don't believe this, then change the subject because we are not going to go anywhere...This is a problem not only with the Quran but also with some of the Biblical texts. In my view there really wasn't ever an intention for the ancient writers to explain any detailed, scientific aspects of the world at the time of their writings. Interpreting today's discoveries into those ancient writings is just not helpful as people are desperately stretching the text into something that it was never meant to say in the first place. All Biblical books, and I believe the same to be true for the Quran, were written for the readership of that time (and probably a foreseeable number of future generations). The NT message of ultimate restoration and the 'kingdom of God' concept, for example, certainly implies an event taking place in 'the future', this doesn't take away from the fact, however, that the concern of the respective authors was primarily directed toward the current audiences where point blank proofs of any scientific phenomena were simply irrelevant.
Really ? Show me where I was wrong then. Because so far, you are the one who has shown himself to be quite ignorant in the matter.
And I showed you how every single one of them either agreed with me, was completely wrong or was just plain dishonesty.
You quoted Khalifa because he happens to have been mentionned by the guy from which you copied pasted that post
First of all it would not nullify my argument. Just because I happen to know something does not mean my ancestry knew it too.
But again you are wrong, first sentence in Wikipedia :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spherical_Earth#Islamic_world
I think you have reached your limit here.
No, I mentioned Khalifa because he is not biased, remember the guy has got a problem in his head. I also didn't copy and paste my post. My friend is one of the writers for the answering-Christianity website, and he gave me the bits I needed. I didn't really need to explain the definitions, hence I used the quotation marks, but the hadith and some of the quotes, I had to use my own head and I was helped by my friend, too. Thirdly, you're wrong again. Where did I say Muslims created it? Oh, wait, I didn't. I said they introduced it, as it was alien in Europe, and it basically goes against everything you said. These Muslims read the verses above and by your logic, they should have never investigated it. I believe the only person who has reached the limit is you. But, wait:
I find it funny that your hate for Islam seems to grow daily. I don't mind people who don't like religion, period. But people like you, who generalise and marginalise religious people and so on, make me wonder what your motive is really. The funniest bit is when I said we could be made of clay, yet you said "we could", not "we are". You're not open-minded enough, but most of the others in this thread are, which is refreshing.
I like this Werewolf fella.
OK, so I don't get your argument at all now. If you look back in the thread you quoted the offending text. It purports to be from the girl herself and is recited from a source you have brought into the thread. Sahih Bukhari, Volume 7, BK 62, No. 64 and 65. Is this source wrong then?
Which link are you saying I should look at?
I wonder in general what to make of someone quoting sources which make specific claims when they appear to support his view but then dismisses those sources when they also make claims which directly refute other opinions.
I'll find it again for you, mate. Like I said, I asked my Imam, who knows more than me and you regarding the subject and he gave me a very good explanation. WikiIslam isn't a good source at all, just to let you know.
Either that or the writers could not forsee the scientific revolution/advances that would happen in the world and that would prove their rudimental explanations wrong which is incompatible with an all-knowing God. Islam for instance says that Quran is suitable everywhere and for every era until the end of time. That's quite a strong claim.
I agree with you that the respective authors' concern was primarly directed towards the current audiences. However, it seems that in order to convince those audiences to trust their words, they had to claim some pretty strong claims about the origins of humans and such (because a religion has to play also that role of answering those intriguing questions) and they were inevitably wrong because the knowledge at the time was pretty limited. The Abrahamic religions should be studied as influencial religions that produced influencial texts that have shaped modern human thought and not as the true words of some God.
Do you even know what you are talking about ? Is Greece in South America ? Islamic astronomers inherited the idea from traditional Greek astronomy (from Europe, you know ?), ideas from the likes of Aristotle and Ptolemy who theorized a spherical Earth way before Islam even appeared.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spherical_Earth#Christian_world
So yeah, Muslim astronomers got inspired from Greek astronomers and extended the knowledge which then transfered back to Europe. The idea was still there in Europe based on the Greeks' works and on other people's works (see the article for more details).
And you know what Muslim scientists did ? They just did not mix between religion and science. When they studied the world, they left religion alone as they knew it was not compatible with a rigorous scientific method. In many ways, they were more clever than you.
Again, you do nothing but talk nonsense without pointing out where I was wrong. I showed you how every single one of your claims was biased or wrong. And I am the one who is not open-minded enough...
Imagine that, an imam would provide an apologetic response to any criticism/negative review of the Qu'ran. No different than a cardinal/priest would for Catholics, or a pastor/preacher would for dozens of Christian sects.
It's also why I don't care much for religious scholars, biased in their research. Try debating a theology major from Liberty, nearly made my head explode multiple times.
It's also why I don't care much for religious scholars, biased in their research. Try debating a theology major from Liberty, nearly made my head explode multiple times.
Here come the insults again from Werewolf. The funny thing is, scientists are smarter than you and I, so that "insult", if you want to call it that, was a bit redundant. Funnily enough, I said Muslims introduced it, which doesn't mean they created it - YOU are deciding to twist things yet again, so it's not surprise. I have been open-minded and I said previously that I respect everyone's views, regardless of how absurd they are. I am open-minded because I consider the multiple definitions of words, or morals in society a while ago, for example.