From a purely neutral viewpoint it surely mirrors religious belief?
Religion, what's the point?
- Thread starter TheRedFlag
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I've just lost interest in, and respect for, religious people in general. I've given up trying to convince them of anything. It isn't even that religious people are unintelligent... that's clearly not the case. It's merely that they have ring-fenced their religion as a part of their thinking that cannot be challenged (although most pretend to be open minded). And it's not like it isn't clear cut. There is no serious debate to be had. The more I learn about the world, the more I realise that. To me, it is equivalent to someone standing up in a physics class and proclaiming that the sun revolves around the earth. You would, of course, briefly explain that all the evidence suggests otherwise and perhaps give some examples, but if they remained convinced you were wrong, you would no longer take them seriously at all. As far as I can tell, the views of the Abrahamic religious texts are significantly more detached from reality than this, and I am not obliged to respect idiocy when scientific information is so readily available.
I personally don't believe that mainstream religion has any place in a modern society.
I wonder if they realise how utterly ridiculous they look when talking about a serious subject while caked in make up and wearing stripper heels. Is it Fox News policy to only hire this sort of woman, by the way? Because they all look the fecking same.
It's just painful to read through all the overgeneralizations. I actually agree with your previous post re. personal and institutional religion (i.e. there's a world of difference between let's say traditional Catholicism and the simplicity of the teachings of Jesus Christ). Fact is people typically judge religion only by it's abuse and completely disregard the positive changes that religious people have made. It's simply a one sided picture which more than often does not correspond with reality.
Well that's clearly frustrating and I'm sorry that this has been you only experience you've had with religious people. But surely you understand that you cannot make this assumption that all religious people are like that because I can provide you with tons of examples that would go against everything you've mentioned previously. I've found that the students I was studying with at university were extremely open minded and ready to discuss any subject. There are so many religious people (I'm talking about Christians, to be clear) who are completely comfortable with their doubts. Not everything is answered and spelled out.
Not sure if Christianity is compatible with open-mindedness.
Also not sure how a religious person can be "completely comfortable" with their doubts. There has to be some cognitive dissonance.
Also not sure how a religious person can be "completely comfortable" with their doubts. There has to be some cognitive dissonance.
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I don't mind at all how they look, but it's what come comes out of their gobs that makes me cringe.
On that point I read this book over the holidays
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Unapologetic-everything-Christianity-surprising-emotional/dp/0571225225
http://www.theguardian.com/books/2012/sep/14/unapologetic-christianity-francis-spufford-review
I personally disagree with the main thrust of the book, as it happens. But what should come across clearly is that, for some anyway, faith isn't a simple binary choice between blind faith or total rejection. He speaks at length about doubt and the lack of evidence etc.
What is his conclusion about what we should do about ideas were the evidence is lacking and the validity doubted?
Thanks guys. Jsut a little something I had to get off my chest.
I'm guessing, that's probably true. That's why the more brainwashed the person is, the bigger the emotional response to people who point out the problems in their religion. Religion has become ingrained into their identity and they simply cannot accept it if someone else rejects or maybe even criticizes their religion. After all, if that criticism is true, then what becomes of their identity? It all falls apart.
This is why trying to rationalize with a religious person won't work. Why despite a hundred years of scientific enlightenment, you will still see people denying the age of the earth, denying evolution, etc. You have to tackle the emotional/psychological aspect before you tackle the facts. I've seen friends who are doctors who can honestly tell me that creationism is true, evolution is a lie, humans used to live for hundreds of years, etc etc. I cringed everytime he talks about that stuff, but what can I do? He's one of my closer friends and he is really dependent on his faith. He once tried to evangelize to me and had an emotional response when I responded by pointing out the problems in his religion. lol. I guess I simply don't know how to deal with people's emotions. I kinda suck at that.
Sometimes a good rant has to be acknowledged.
But I don't find myself in full agreement with the quote that you approvingly quoted, wherein it was stated:
Well said. The sad thing is that it doesn't matter what you say; Religious people are blissful in their ignorance. I think most of them realise they're wrong but can't let go, which is the most pathetic thing I guess. The irony is that the most widespread religions, Islam and Christianity, are actually probably the worst. I think the world would be a much better place without the kind of people who follow the mainstream religions. They just hold society back.
Of the small sample of "religious people" on Earth that I have ever gotten to know somewhat well -- a few thousand, I suppose -- out of the 5 billion total or so that I suspect can be described as "religious people", most of them truly believe in the basic architecture of their religions and are very nice people and make the world a pretty decent place to live.
We focus a lot of our attention on bad actors -- Catholic priests who rape little boys, imams who issue fatwas that lead to death and destruction, fundamentalist Christians who take your cash and scare the crap out of you -- but the worshippers are generally pretty decent people. They work, raise children, coach youth basketball teams, fundraise for local charities, pay taxes, contribute to their communities and so on. These are good things.
I imagine what really gets under our skin, we secularists (on the basis of the currently known evidence, we all came from a Big Bang and all corporeal matter will all end eventually up as cosmic dust) just can't stand the sight of people praying to a god that we know very likely does not exist and submitting to an artificial authority in the name of that god. But I'm not yet convinced that on the the weight of the evidence that religion has done more harm than good. We know about the harm, but we should not deny the good.
Religious people may be blissful in their ignorance, but even ignorance truly can be bliss and bring bliss to others. And for many, the horror of waking up to the abyss may be too much for them to bear. For most of us, as Lucretius rightly suspected, the realization that there is no afterlife and that we are just a composition of particles temporarily formed into an organic mass, could unleash passions that are even more destructive than the destruction caused by the imposition of religious dogma. For Lucretius himself, this realization was liberating, but very few of us can think like Lucretius.
But even an extraordinary thinker like Lucretius believed in the existence of gods of some kind and even his mind led to strange conclusions about the physical world. Secularists have to be careful not to let their own passion, their anti-religious sentiment, take their mind too far astray from day to day observations about the benefits of religion, not just its vices.
Ah, I was just acknowledging the compliment and giving thanks.
As for your point, I see your point of view. Most religious people are ..... people ....
Although, for me, I see them as neither better nor worse than any other joe off the street. Religious or otherwise.
That's how I see it too. Most of us suffer from our delusions (myself included), religious and nonreligious people alike.
The real shame is not religion itself, but the hypocrisy of some religious leaders and the crimes committed in the name of whatever god.
The sad thing is it actually does correspond with reality more often than not. And what are those positive changes religious ppl have made that you speak of?
I see no change whatsoever. Or has f.e. Christianity moved on from what their doctrine was saying 100 years ago? As far as the position of women, homosexuals, prevention and so on and so on it has not.
Unfortunately, even those with seemingly benign religious opinions usually hold some pretty disgusting views. To take Christianity as an example, the fundamental principle that man is born in sin and is inherently wicked is, at least to me, an abhorrent one.
Then you have the more overt stuff like the homophobia and the subjugation of women.
I see where you're coming from, and believe me I am the least prejudicial person you will find on an individual level. Nevertheless I reserve the right to my opinion that religious people (of the Abrahamic faiths) as a whole are an anchor to society's progress.
Actually, part of the problem is that religion itself is prone to abuse.
Blind faith + zero questioning = vast powers with no checks = prone to abuse.
It is no coincidence.
I wonder how many of these experts on the evil of religion have been into an inner city church in one of the deprived parts of Manchester and spoken to the people that attend? These aren't bible bashing homophobic misogynists. Many of them are people who have been systematically marginalised their whole lives with no family or friends, who quite literally have no one else in their lives they can be with. They come together in that community because there is no other community that will accept them.
When people say churches do no good, I'm always minded to ask them what exactly they do to help others.
When people say churches do no good, I'm always minded to ask them what exactly they do to help others.
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I'd be interested in finding out what exactly do you consider to be the purpose or the goal towards which 'society' (which one?!) is expected to progress? And how does Christianity 'as a whole' is hindering this progress?
I don't know if this is some new, fun, post-modern discipline to judge religion by its abuse only. It's certainly not helpful in understanding the different dynamics on how Christianity works on the local level. As you rightly say, I have a feeling most of the fiercest critics here on the Caf haven't even visited a church recently nor are they familiar what churches are actually doing 'in real life'. Just one example to share, over the harvest and Christmas period there was such an amazing involvement from church goers across different denominations in collecting money, food, sleeping bags, and working with local charities in supporting their work with the homeless. Many churches have incredibly strong volunteer groups who actively work in the local communities, providing any sort of support needed. One of the churches I have visited is opened two-three times a week offering soup and also providing respite care for toddlers. I personally know of several volunteers who have committed in working in Africa and South America- needless to say the number of Christian organisations that work around the world in different fields, i.e. providing medical and educational support, is staggering. I was working with one Christian charity during the war in Yugoslavia, organising logistics for the delivery of goods in and out of Sarajevo- at that time this was the only organisation allowed to go in and out, accepted by all three war parties. Tons of other examples. And then to read such moronic statements by enlightened secularists how 'religion poisons everything', it's just a slap in the face for all the hard working Christians who literally don't give two shits about politics but are driven by the compassion and care for their fellow human beings.
You do know that being a Christian isn't a prerequisite to helping out others? That isn't to say I'm going to ignore all the good (no matter how big or small it is) that's done in the name of religion.
On the other hand, we do have higher ups in America who's trying to force creationism into schools, push anti-LGBT/abortion laws, etc. In the name of their religion. Not to mention countless people who live in the closet about their atheism/homosexuality because they might be committing social suicide if they do so.
If you want to state the good that's come out of religion, I can state the bad, too. Ultimately arguing the positive/negative aspects of religion will not get us anywhere. What I can say, though, is that believing that the Earth is 6000 years old and there was a global flood where a 500 year old man built a giant wooden boat and lived there for 7 months is ridiculous.
On the other hand, we do have higher ups in America who's trying to force creationism into schools, push anti-LGBT/abortion laws, etc. In the name of their religion. Not to mention countless people who live in the closet about their atheism/homosexuality because they might be committing social suicide if they do so.
If you want to state the good that's come out of religion, I can state the bad, too. Ultimately arguing the positive/negative aspects of religion will not get us anywhere. What I can say, though, is that believing that the Earth is 6000 years old and there was a global flood where a 500 year old man built a giant wooden boat and lived there for 7 months is ridiculous.
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Excellent post. All over the world, a good number of those 'religious' people are quietly going about their lives whilst actually helping out at the sharp end. My own church has some wonderful people who give so much of their own time (and money) to help those in most need. We provide a free food service 5 days a week for anyone who knocks on the door - the food is either donated by church members or bought with their financial contributions and the service has been running for 12 years now. We get homeless people, people with drug and alcohol addiction, people in B&B accommodation, families who are struggling, people who have just arrived from other countries. I know for a fact that it keeps some folk going, as we see the same faces day after day. Every other church around us also does charitable work in the local community.
It's just one small example, there are hundreds (thousands) more. And the people who do the most for others say the least, in my experience. The kindness of strangers is quite breathtaking at times.
That's all well and good, but are you/they really only doing that stuff because you think your God has told you to? If so, I don't see what's moral about it. That's not an admirable reason for helping others, in my opinion.
Which is more moral: Helping the poor simply because you think your God/religion has mandated it, or doing it because you genuinely want to help your fellow human beings with no other agenda?
And the countries that are the most secular with the highest number of atheists/non-believers are largely the ones that give the most in foreign aid. Imagine that.
Nothing is mandated. Nobody is forcing you to do anything. Your view is completely contrary to the Judeo-Christian theology.
I do a little to help because I believe in helping people who haven't even got the basics, when I have more than enough. I have always thought that way and I know I'm not alone in that. My parents were not religious at all but they were kind and giving. I was brought up that way, I suppose. It's nothing to do with feeling that God wants me to do it, it's the right thing for anyone to do.
I don't think you can equate Government foreign aid with individual participation in charitable work. We all contribute to foreign aid through our taxes and I'm happy to do so (and will vote accordingly), but it takes zero effort for me to do that. I do a small amount for charity, work-wise (just three or four hours a week) and I donate money, which for me is the easy bit. However, when I arrived at our parish house the other day someone had already been with a big vat of soup for us to give out, which they had taken the trouble to make themselves at home and bring before they went to work. That's the sort of charity that takes a bit of effort.
Thanks, no need to state the bad that's come out of religion, it's been done to death and with great passion over the past hundred pages of this thread.
If that's is the case then what has religion got to do with helping people? As you have stated, non religious as well as religious people are often charitable. With all of the negatives religion brings, and the positives being negated by the fact that non religious people act in the same way, what is the advantage of having a religious population over an atheist one?
The pope gets a really nice wardrobe.
You're assuming then that there are no negatives to an atheist population?
I think from a theist perspective your question can only be adequately answered if you start with the premise that there actually exists a relational, super-natural intelligent agency (God).
The pope doesn't get a nice wardrobe?
I don't dispute that there are many people who are willing to give time and money, religious and non-religious. I'm just saying that many churches base much of their pastoral activity on giving local hands-on help with no strings attached, and that they all seem to have a good number of people who are willing to lend a hand. As churches are situated at the heart of so many little communities, that makes a difference.
We don't ask people if they are Catholic before we give them food - it's not a case of helping your own. It's just help, with no strings attached.
Ken Ham is speaking at a church near me. I haven't decided whether I want to go to Is Genesis Relevant in 2015? or One Race, One Blood. The latter sounds more ominous so I'm leaning towards that.
People like Ken Ham is why we can't have nice conversations.
I read a sample of the one race one blood book on his website. Wow. When people equate him with religion it's easy to understand where all the anger comes from.
Oh and then there is the friendly Westboro Baptist church, and that lovely pastor who thought it's a fantastic idea to burn the Koran.
The cynic in me would say it's good marketing.
Wait a minute, this woman knew her baby died due to the disease and yet she kept going on giving birth to six more children who also all died?!