Religion, what's the point?

Uzz said:
Yes, you can see water as a gas. It's called steam. We used to run trains on it.
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No it's not, steam is a mix of liquid water and gas water. you can't see gas water, if it was the case you would be able to see Air when the humidity is not 0%.

And you are right about the other part i made a mistake, i shouldn't have used this sentence, i wanted to say that you cant observe god.

Edit: try to act in civil ways, i haven't called anyone ridiculous in here.
 
Shark said:
It was my niece' Christening last week and I must say, I found the ceremony in the Church quite difficult to sit through as somebody who dislikes religion with a passion. The thing is, my brother isn't even religious, but his partner who I never witnessed doing anything to do Christianity beforehand called the shots on it. I just don't understand why, in 2015 people still allow themselves to be fed the rubbish that priests of a blatantly corrupt organisation spout out. It does my head in.
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I really don't think the majority of people get their child christened to hope they grow up going to church and loving God. Neither me or my daughters mother are religious, but we still got our daughter christened. It's the same with the majority of my friends who have children. I think these days it's more of a family and friends day out to celebrate the birth of your child more so than celebrating your child becoming a Christian.
 
JPRouve said:
No it's not, steam is a mix of liquid water and gas water. you can't see gas water, if it was the case you would be able to see Air when the humidity is not 0%.

And you are right about the other part i made a mistake, i shouldn't have used this sentence, i wanted to say that you cant observe god.

Edit: try to act in civil ways, i haven't called anyone ridiculous in here.
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I didn't call you ridiculous, I called your argument ridiculous.

Ok, so let's change the goalposts. You can't observe God. I can once again list 100s of things we also can't observe but we believe they exist. But we believe them on good faith of the scientist that theorised it, or whatever.

Now, that same faith people use to believe in all these other things, people also use to believe that there is a God. That is literally all I'm saying.

PedroMendez said:
Comparing religious faith with knowledge about air. Nice one.

:lol:
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Now, if you followed my argument from my first post to this one, you'll realise that's not what I'm saying. I'm just using the opposer's own logic to try and prove the existence of something that we all know exists. But they can't.
 
Momochiru said:
Don't you know? There is no mention of gasses in the bible. He shouldn't need to believe in gas and he is exercising his freedom not to believe in them.
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I've asked you to describe to me twice now what air feels like and you haven't because you can't. This shows that your argument is nothing but (and here's the joke coming up) hot air!
 
Uzz, if coming from atheism, having nobody around you to influence your decision and having no prior knowledge of the things you were researching and your research into the Abrahamic God and evidence to the contrary (dinosaurs, biology, physics, evolution etc) led to you believing that God must exist I'd think you were mental, I'd also think that your research was flawed.
 
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Uzz said:
Ok, so from observations, some people believe that rather than coincidence, or happenstance, there was a Creator. Or even a finger that prodded the events that led to the Big Bang.
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Otherwise known as argument from ignorance, which has been debunked many times.
 
Maxii said:
I really don't think the majority of people get their child christened to hope they grow up going to church and loving God. Neither me or my daughters mother are religious, but we still got our daughter christened. It's the same with the majority of my friends who have children. I think these days it's more of a family and friends day out to celebrate the birth of your child more so than celebrating your child becoming a Christian.
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You're probably right, but IMO there's far more sane ways to celebrate the birth of your child.
 
Uzz said:
I didn't call you ridiculous, I called your argument ridiculous.

Ok, so let's change the goalposts. You can't observe God. I can once again list 100s of things we also can't observe but we believe they exist. But we believe them on good faith of the scientist that theorised it, or whatever.

Now, that same faith people use to believe in all these other things, people also use to believe that there is a God. That is literally all I'm saying.



Now, if you followed my argument from my first post to this one, you'll realise that's not what I'm saying. I'm just using the opposer's own logic to try and prove the existence of something that we all know exists. But they can't.
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All scientific theories (not every day language use of the word theory) are testable and make falsifiable predictions. No one takes a scientific theory on faith, a good theory is backed my a vast body of evidence. It can be improved upon or discarded all together depending on what we observe or the results we get from tests/experiments.

Air for example we know is there because we breath it. It causes resistance to things falling. We might not be able to see it but we can see it's effect/impact. Gravity. We can't see that, but we see its effect.

Thats the difference to blind faith of a god that many people have.
 
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The Man Himself said:
I won't disagree about your personal experiences nor will I go asking everyone to turn atheist. It is every individual's choice. If you find mental peace through religion and as long as you don't forcefully enforce on others, it is OK. My point was, the religious institutions are not always working with best intent but have ulterior motives and I gave example for that. You overlooked or avoided the example. I was not saying that all people who are religious are fraud but one can't trust the institutions which in name of God promise to work towards 'better society' but carry out other activities backstage which are not right. Of course, not all are like that but one can't blindly trust a religious institution to make world a better place. If one trusts his own rational mind, and everyone does it, world can still be a better place to live.
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I don't force anything, i don't feel the need to defend my god, if he's almighty he can do that for himself, if he's not almighty, he need not be defended.

You're blaming the institutions, and I do agree and have seen first hand many hypocrites in every religion, or probably every human being (even atheist) just as much as I see human being doing good things.

And speaking about indoctrination, we are all indoctrined by something, or else we would have become a mindless zombie. Atheism, religions, political belief, philosophy is all part of doctrine. Your believe that god does not exist is a doctrine.

The point i'm trying to make is that as a human being living in a society we all have our own perception and off course "believe"

The Muslims believe in their qoran, I believe in my God, you believe in whatever you want to believe, but you believe in something, even if that something is a theory that "god do not exists"

Now I don't claim that I am right, or you are wrong. Nobody have seen the creation of man, nor the big bang, nor monkey turns into humans, but we all believe in something that can't be 100% scientifically proven. The history might have been a hoax afterall, Pharaoh could have been a fiction, the pyramids could have been created by the aliens. Your belief and my belief and everyone else's believe can't be proven beyond doubts. Herein lies the crux of the matter between Islam and Other beliefs, because everyone feels that their belief is the "truth". You and I are bound by something to restrain from forcing our belief on others, just like those terrorist are bound by something (which ever that is) to force their religion on everyone... that or kill them.

in the simplest form, a believe of something you believe. If you believe in rational, in science, in norms, that is your belief, some happens to believe man with beard, some believes in aliens, some believes in nothing, but nothing is also something, in a way that if you believe "nothing matters after our death" is also a believe.

Therefore, in short, every man have their own religion.
 
Rudie said:
Nobody is born an atheist, just like nobody is born a Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, Jew etc. There are no Christian, Muslim, Jewish children in the world just Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Scientology parents who indoctrinate their kids with their misguided ideologies.
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Everyone is born atheist.
 
Sky1981 said:
ing the institutions, and I do agree and have seen first hand many hypocrites in every religion, or probably every human being (even atheist) just as much as I see human being doing good things.
And speaking about indoctrination, we are all indoctrined by something, or else we would have become a mindless zombie. Atheism, religions, political belief, philosophy is all part of doctrine. Your believe that god does not exist is a doctrine.
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Care to explain why a lack of belief in a god is a doctrine?
 
Just saw a post about religion on the Charlie Hebdo thread and wanted to ask a question. Doing it here since i did not want to go off topic. The posts in queston are quoted below.

Sultan said:
I Quote

"In Islam obedience to the law of the land is a religious duty. The Qur'an commands Muslims to remain faithful to not only Allah and the Prophet Muhammad (saw), but also the authority they live under:

O ye who believe! obey Allah, and obey His Messenger and those who are in authority over you (Ch.4: V.60).

Any country or government that guarantees religious freedom to followers of different faiths (not just Islam) must be owed loyalty."
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Hamadovich86 said:
Thanks but its actually Surra 4 Verse 59 not 60. And the translation your provided is somewhat misleading this is the Pickthall translation:

O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the messenger and those of you who are in authority; and if ye have a dispute concerning any matter, refer it to Allah and the messenger if ye are (in truth) believers in Allah and the Last Day. That is better and more seemly in the end.

This implies that muslims have to obey those who are in authority from among them so surely this cannot be applied to non muslim authorities.
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I am not trying to incite anything or cause any issues.

If it is indeed the case that muslims should not obey any non islamic / non sharia laws of other countries (read democracy) how do you expect to live and survive there?

I have no clue about the teachings of quran but from seeing people like Sultan and my friends, i know surely that they practise islam in good faith and always try to be good humans first. By that reasoning i do believe that islam is a peaceful religion.

But as i said, if you do not want to obey the democratic laws of the country then why do so many people go to foriegn lands and cause trouble and want sharia laws implemented there? This is what i find absurd and want to understand the reasoning behind it.

Also how can a holy book be so open to misinterpretation that what one person sees the message of peace and the another a reason to kill?

Just honest queries.

@Hamadovich86 since you rebutted sultan's claim. If you can please explain what you mean by believing that muslims should not obey non islamic laws.
 
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Sky1981 said:
I don't force anything, i don't feel the need to defend my god, if he's almighty he can do that for himself, if he's not almighty, he need not be defended.

You're blaming the institutions, and I do agree and have seen first hand many hypocrites in every religion, or probably every human being (even atheist) just as much as I see human being doing good things.

And speaking about indoctrination, we are all indoctrined by something, or else we would have become a mindless zombie. Atheism, religions, political belief, philosophy is all part of doctrine. Your believe that god does not exist is a doctrine.
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Just to explain a simple analogy to you: A lack of belief in leprechauns, Santa Claus, fairies, etc, does not constitute a doctrine. Why does a God?
 
Maxii said:
I really don't think the majority of people get their child christened to hope they grow up going to church and loving God. Neither me or my daughters mother are religious, but we still got our daughter christened. It's the same with the majority of my friends who have children. I think these days it's more of a family and friends day out to celebrate the birth of your child more so than celebrating your child becoming a Christian.
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In Ireland its to get your kid into a school.
 
bishblaize said:
What's also remarkable is that a book that's been largely discredited by academia continues to be held in such high esteem.
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It's discredited as anthropology, its research and content allow you to draw your own conclusions.
 
Sky1981 said:
And speaking about indoctrination, we are all indoctrined by something, or else we would have become a mindless zombie. Atheism, religions, political belief, philosophy is all part of doctrine. Your believe that god does not exist is a doctrine.
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Atheism is a belief system like abstinence is a sex position, not collecting coins is a hobby, etc.

There's no inherent doctine in atheism, the word exists only in response to theism.
 
ravi2 said:
That isnt true. I know both children and teachers who have been turned away for religious reasons.
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Not legally. If they have they should have taken it further. I'm an atheist, teaching in a Catholic school where we have children from many different faiths. Schools can not turn away a child based on their religion.
 
RexHamilton said:
Why? No school can or would turn a child away because of their faith or lack thereof.
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Catholic schools can discriminate against your unbaptised child by allowing baptised children ahead of them in the waiting lists. Education in this country is a sham.
 
RexHamilton said:
Why? No school can or would turn a child away because of their faith or lack thereof.
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They aren't turned away but most of the schools are still run by the church, so baptised children get "first dibs" as such. Meaning non-baptised children have difficulty finding schools.
 
Witchking said:
Just saw a post about religion on the Charlie Hebdo thread and wanted to ask a question. Doing it here since i did not want to go off topic. The posts in queston are quoted below.

I am not trying to incite anything or cause any issues.
If it is indeed the case that muslims should not obey any non islamic / non sharia laws of other countries (read democracy) how do you expect to live and survive there?
I have no clue about the teachings of quran but from seeing people like Sultan and my friends, i know surely that they practise islam in good faith and always try to be good humans first. By that reasoning i do believe that islam is a peaceful religion.
But as i said, if you do not want to obey the democratic laws of the country then why do so many people go to foriegn lands and cause trouble and want sharia laws implemented there? This is what i find absurd and want to understand the reasoning behind it.
Also how can a holy book be so open to misinterpretation that what one person sees the message of peace and the another a reason to kill?

Just honest queries.
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It truly is a very vocal minority of Muslims that seem to be fecking it up for everyone else, the terrorists kill far more Muslims than they do any other religion.
When I lived in Trinidad, there was a coup in 1990 and Muslims stormed Parliament and took it over for a week or two, they managed to let the hostages go and got free by signing an amnesty.... eventually their leader became the biggest drug dealer on the island. I just think bad folks use the religion for their own purposes.
 
RexHamilton said:
Not legally. If they have they should have taken it further. I'm an atheist, teaching in a Catholic school where we have children from many different faiths. Schools can not turn away a child based on their religion.
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Ive seen teachers not get the job in Canada and the USA because of their perceived lack of faith and in the third world I know students who didnt get into preferred high schools because of their perceived lack of faith.
It happens more than you think.
 
Big-Red said:
They aren't turned away but most of the schools are still run by the church, so baptised children get "first dibs" as such. Meaning non-baptised children have difficulty finding schools.
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That is exactly what happens...first dibs goes to your own kind.
 
RexHamilton said:
Not legally. If they have they should have taken it further. I'm an atheist, teaching in a Catholic school where we have children from many different faiths. Schools can not turn away a child based on their religion.
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it can definitely be used as part of the selection criteria. In England anyway dunno bout Ireland.
 
Trigg said:
All scientific theories (not every day language use of the word theory) are testable and make falsifiable predictions. No one takes a scientific theory on faith, a good theory is backed my a vast body of evidence. It can be improved upon or discarded all together depending on what we observe or the results we get from tests/experiments.

Air for example we know is there because we breath it. It causes resistance to things falling. We might not be able to see it but we can see it's effect/impact. Gravity. We can't see that, but we see its effect.

Thats the difference to blind faith of a god that many people have.
Click to expand...

I agree with what you're saying, but you have to understand, with nearly all theories, there is a certain liberty that needs to be adopted, and a degree of faith that needs to be taken.

In a set of man made conditions, we can say that x results in y. That's fine.

Let's take string theory-there is no way we can prove its existence. We can postulate and the brightest and best minds of our generation can provide evidence that supports this theory. And that's fine, and I agree with that. But there is a part of it which we can not say, irrefutably, that it exists. So, this belief that it exists, even without that final iota of information to confirm it 100% is similar to people's belief in God.

To say it is a blind faith is condescending and ignorant.
 
Shark said:
Catholic schools can discriminate against your unbaptised child by allowing baptised children ahead of them in the waiting lists. Education in this country is a sham.
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Big-Red said:
They aren't turned away but most of the schools are still run by the church, so baptised children get "first dibs" as such. Meaning non-baptised children have difficulty finding schools.
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As I said, no school in Ireland can legally do that. If it has been done it, the parents should have taken further. There are schools who tried to introduce Catholics First policies, but those policies are illegal.

ravi2 said:
Ive seen teachers not get the job in Canada and the USA because of their perceived lack of faith and in the third world I know students who didnt get into preferred high schools because of their perceived lack of faith.
It happens more than you think.
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Sorry, I can't speak for Canada as I know nothing of the situation there. I thought you were also speaking about Ireland.
 
Witchking said:
Just saw a post about religion on the Charlie Hebdo thread and wanted to ask a question. Doing it here since i did not want to go off topic. The posts in queston are quoted below.







I am not trying to incite anything or cause any issues.

If it is indeed the case that muslims should not obey any non islamic / non sharia laws of other countries (read democracy) how do you expect to live and survive there?

I have no clue about the teachings of quran but from seeing people like Sultan and my friends, i know surely that they practise islam in good faith and always try to be good humans first. By that reasoning i do believe that islam is a peaceful religion.

But as i said, if you do not want to obey the democratic laws of the country then why do so many people go to foriegn lands and cause trouble and want sharia laws implemented there? This is what i find absurd and want to understand the reasoning behind it.

Also how can a holy book be so open to misinterpretation that what one person sees the message of peace and the another a reason to kill?

Just honest queries.
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Thanks for posting this here. Keep in mind the quote there from the quran doesnt actually say "hey dont obey those infidels!" I asked the lad the provide me the source so I can judge for myself. I wasnt trying to use it as a means to say that Muslims dont/shouldnt obey the laws in non Muslim countries.

On to your remark, there are definite instances where the Quran is really vague and unclear about things heck the actual instructions of how to pray are not their and prayer is one of the main pillars of the religion i.e if you dont pray even if you profess full submission to Allah theres no heaven for you! On the other hand there are some really clear cut verses that are not being applied in all Muslim countries e.g if you catch a thief, chop his right arm off.

The so called moderates of the Muslim world pick and choose what they wish to believe which is not a bad thing but they wont actually admit to doing this. I just hope the day comes that the majority of Muslims disregard jihad (not the inner kind thats fine) as well as all other idiotic non civilised things.
 
Hamadovich86 said:
Thanks for posting this here. Keep in mind the quote there from the quran doesnt actually say "hey dont obey those infidels!" I asked the lad the provide me the source so I can judge for myself. I wasnt trying to use it as a means to say that Muslims dont/shouldnt obey the laws in non Muslim countries.

On to your remark, there are definite instances where the Quran is really vague and unclear about things heck the actual instructions of how to pray are not their and prayer is one of the main pillars of the religion i.e if you dont pray even if you profess full submission to Allah theres no heaven for you! On the other hand there are some really clear cut verses that are not being applied in all Muslim countries e.g if you catch a thief, chop his right arm off.

The so called moderates of the Muslim world pick and choose what they wish to believe which is not a bad thing but they wont actually admit to doing this. I just hope the day comes that the majority of Muslims disregard jihad (not the inner kind thats fine) as well as all other idiotic non civilised things.
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The Bible and Bhagavad Gita both have crazy shit in them, you can cherry pick madness from any religious text but Islam seems to have not evolved like the rest of the religions...for whatever reason.
 
Hamadovich86 said:
Thanks for posting this here. Keep in mind the quote there from the quran doesnt actually say "hey dont obey those infidels!" I asked the lad the provide me the source so I can judge for myself. I wasnt trying to use it as a means to say that Muslims dont/shouldnt obey the laws in non Muslim countries.

On to your remark, there are definite instances where the Quran is really vague and unclear about things heck the actual instructions of how to pray are not their and prayer is one of the main pillars of the religion i.e if you dont pray even if you profess full submission to Allah theres no heaven for you! On the other hand there are some really clear cut verses that are not being applied in all Muslim countries e.g if you catch a thief, chop his right arm off.

The so called moderates of the Muslim world pick and choose what they wish to believe which is not a bad thing but they wont actually admit to doing this. I just hope the day comes that the majority of Muslims disregard jihad (not the inner kind thats fine) as well as all other idiotic non civilised things.
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Thanks for the reply. Want i really want to know is this. Does the common man (muslim) believe that sharia is required for europe, usa,india or any democratic country for that matter for him to be a good muslim?

No democratic country stops you from practising your religion. You can freely visit your mosques, pray at home, celebrate all festivals.Then why the need to opt so such a old law with such high disregard to human rights?

And since you say that the Quran is sometimes vague, why take it as the complete truth and follow it blindly?

Again, these are serious queries i have and i do not intend to spark off any voilent debates. Just trying to understand why there is a need to force the sharia law in countries which have no plan ever to go that road.
 
Witchking said:
Just saw a post about religion on the Charlie Hebdo thread and wanted to ask a question. Doing it here since i did not want to go off topic. The posts in queston are quoted below.







I am not trying to incite anything or cause any issues.

If it is indeed the case that muslims should not obey any non islamic / non sharia laws of other countries (read democracy) how do you expect to live and survive there?

I have no clue about the teachings of quran but from seeing people like Sultan and my friends, i know surely that they practise islam in good faith and always try to be good humans first. By that reasoning i do believe that islam is a peaceful religion.

But as i said, if you do not want to obey the democratic laws of the country then why do so many people go to foriegn lands and cause trouble and want sharia laws implemented there? This is what i find absurd and want to understand the reasoning behind it.

Also how can a holy book be so open to misinterpretation that what one person sees the message of peace and the another a reason to kill?

Just honest queries.

@Hamadovich86 since you rebutted sultan's claim. If you can please explain what you mean by believing that muslims should not obey non islamic laws.
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Hi buddy,

I've tried to answer the question in the other thread. It's actually not a good idea to be debating a religion or even politics when emotions are running high with what's happened over the last few days. Understandable really.
 
Uzz said:
I agree with what you're saying, but you have to understand, with nearly all theories, there is a certain liberty that needs to be adopted, and a degree of faith that needs to be taken.

In a set of man made conditions, we can say that x results in y. That's fine.

Let's take string theory-there is no way we can prove its existence. We can postulate and the brightest and best minds of our generation can provide evidence that supports this theory. And that's fine, and I agree with that. But there is a part of it which we can not say, irrefutably, that it exists. So, this belief that it exists, even without that final iota of information to confirm it 100% is similar to people's belief in God.

To say it is a blind faith is condescending and ignorant.
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String Theory is a theoretical framework really, it makes very few falsifiable predictions hence its not really accepted as a theory in the same way relativity or evolution is for example.

Science doesn't have faith. If if you believe something to be true, you test it and if those test show that it isn't correct then you change/amend their 'beliefs' based on those findings.

I think believing in a deity is done so with blind faith in my opinion. Sorry if that offends (this is a hollow apology I admit), but remember, offence is taken not given.
 
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