Refs & VAR 2020/2021 Discussion

Statue of Limitations said:
Today was a good advertisement for VAR.
Some big decisions, all made correctly.

If they can just keep getting it right, nobody can have any complaints.

Didn't understand Walton's "lowering of the bar" comment though.
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Yeah it had a really good day.

Only a minor thing, but if you're checking incidents like that White tackle for a possible red card anyway I don't see why you can't rescind the yellow when replays show it wasn't a foul.
 
I enjoyed that but can't help thinking the overall effect on the game is a negative one. In a game there are so many moments that were ignored previously that can now be justified as a penalty.
 
I like that the decisions went against Liverpool but I still dislike and will dislike VAR - especially the tiny offsides and the penalties for handballs and slight contacts. Its changed the game too much imo
 
100 said:
I enjoyed that but can't help thinking the overall effect on the game is a negative one. In a game there are so many moments that were ignored previously that can now be justified as a penalty.
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It needs to be down to the ref unless it's "clear and obvious". That distinction should be made by a panel of refs and neutral ex pros who can encourage the match day ref to review the decision.
 
marktan said:
I like that the decisions went against Liverpool but I still dislike and will dislike VAR - especially the tiny offsides and the penalties for handballs and slight contacts. Its changed the game too much imo
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They were always pens and offsides though? There was as many wrongly ruled offsides and blatant dives as correct decisions.
 
Statue of Limitations said:
Today was a good advertisement for VAR.
Some big decisions, all made correctly.

If they can just keep getting it right, nobody can have any complaints.

Didn't understand Walton's "lowering of the bar" comment though.
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I agree with you: the point of VAR is to get decisions right. I always thought that "obvious error" stuff was nonsense and used as an excuse to not make the ref look wrong
 
SuperiorXI said:
It needs to be down to the ref unless it's "clear and obvious". That distinction should be made by a panel of refs and neutral ex pros who can encourage the match day ref to review the decision.
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It is down to the ref though? He isnt being overruled anymore
 
marktan said:
I like that the decisions went against Liverpool but I still dislike and will dislike VAR - especially the tiny offsides and the penalties for handballs and slight contacts. Its changed the game too much imo
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the problem there isn't VAR - it's the handball law
 
100 said:
I enjoyed that but can't help thinking the overall effect on the game is a negative one. In a game there are so many moments that were ignored previously that can now be justified as a penalty.
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You're being swayed by the Bias BT commentary.

They make a huge deal out of things that go against the narrative they want. If they were positive about VAR and said "well done good decision" and moved on everybody would support it.

Instead they will bad mouth it and say it's the wrong decision even when it isnt.

They were screaming bloody murder when Bruno's penalty got over turned even when it was clearly the wrong decision to give it etc.
 
They seem to be more willing to overturn penalty decisions now than they were at the start of the season. Which I think is a good thing if they stick with it rather than reverting back to not doing so again in a few weeks. The inconsistency between different parts of the season is annoying.

In this case though Robertson kicked the player without making any contact with the ball, so seems pretty hard to argue with really. You're not supposed to do that.
 
SuperiorXI said:
Forgive me I've not seen it. Provided that criteria is met then it's fair.

Inconsistency is inevitable as some variables are human opinions.
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Refs are called over to the sidelines this season. The ref looked at the replay for about 1.3 seconds and immediately gave the pen. It isnt even an arguable decision, its just because VAR was used which is insane
 
I dont think that line they drew for salah offside goal was a correct one. How can they choose defenders right standing leg, and ingore his left hip or shoulder?
 
Adam-Utd said:
You're being swayed by the Bias BT commentary.

They make a huge deal out of things that go against the narrative they want. If they were positive about VAR and said "well done good decision" and moved on everybody would support it.

Instead they will bad mouth it and say it's the wrong decision even when it isnt.

They were screaming bloody murder when Bruno's penalty got over turned even when it was clearly the wrong decision to give it etc.
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Agree with your view of BT but thinking long term. Penalties having a greater affect on the game is a negative thing and that's what VAR will lead to - it's something that puts me off the likes of Basketball.

The actual issue is the award of a penalty is often not in line with the foul committed. Human error/inability to see everything was a natural filter to penalties being called all the time. You can justify about 2-3 penalties a game with the introduction of VAR.
 
It's the rules and interpretation behind VAR that's really irritating and inconsistent. Too much is being made of the slightest contact and too many penalties are being awarded.

Alan Shearer would probably have another 60 career goals if VAR had been around in his time.
 
Walton “referee in the context of the game and in the moment of the game, and not forensically analyse it”
 
They’re in the BT studio saying it was a penalty but it shouldn’t have been given because var shouldn’t have been asked to get involved because it wasn’t a clear and obvious error by the match referee. Mental gymnastics to create an issue. . The decision in the end was correct. Getting Correct decisions should be the main concern, not how it was attained
 
100 said:
Agree with your view of BT but thinking long term. Penalties having a greater affect on the game is a negative thing and that's what VAR will lead to - it's something that puts me off the likes of Basketball.

The actual issue is the award of a penalty is often not in line with the foul committed. Human error/inability to see everything was a natural filter to penalties being called all the time. You can justify about 2-3 penalties a game with the introduction of VAR.
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I think we just have to accept this is the way it is now.

Football has been modernized and things that used to be borderline decisions no longer exist, it's going to fall on 1 side or the other and you just have to hope your team gets the rub of the green.

Today in that Pool game they got every decision right so I don't see why this is a VAR issue. If it was the other way around they'd be praising it for spotting a clear infringement missed by the ref in full speed.
 
I think the direction VAR is going is damaging for the game. The biggest problem is that they are referering a game that is increasingly disconnected to the game that everyone else is watching. And this is very bad for the sport.

I think they have a big problem with them having no idea how to administrate "clear and obvious". Mainly in that they have no idea how and when they should be limiting themselves in this regard. What we have instead is a backroom staff replaying and reviewing every potential goal or penalty situation to feck from all angles, while the game on the pitch has moved on minutes ago.
And the second problem is toe nails and zits being judged offside, again relying on evidence that doesn't reflect what our eyes are seeing even with video review.

Remove the lines from offside review. If it isn't clear and obvious on 'regular' video review, don't rule it. In cases of uncertainty, go back to the rule of letting the decision favour the attacker.
And while we're at it, install two screens on each sideline and let the linesmen perform the offside review after goals scored. It annoys the feck out of me having these faceless cowards deciding the game hidden away from the actual game.

The two offsides in Brighton Liverpool are good examples. The first one is so miniscule it is impossible to determine with the naked eye even on video review without putting down lines and hoping you froze at the right frame. Shouldn't have been called. The second one against Mane wasn't caught in real play, but was clear and obvious on review. Right call and good use of VAR that no one could object to.

Let the ref, and maybe the captains to a limited degree, demand a video review and then have the ref run over and perform the review himself immediately. Rather that than this BS where we are all waiting around while we are waiting for some backroom faceless men rotating the angles, rewinding back and forth and zooming in on skin pores to find something that absolutely no one in the stadium or on tv caught on first viewing.

They are attempting a level of precision that no one has asked for and no one really wants and is increasingly disconnected from the game everyone else is actually watching.
 
B20 said:
I think the direction VAR is going is damaging for the game. The biggest problem is that they are referering a game that is increasingly disconnected to the game that everyone else is watching. And this is very bad for the sport.

I think they have a big problem with them having no idea how to administrate "clear and obvious". Mainly in that they have no idea how and when they should be limiting themselves in this regard. What we have instead is a backroom staff replaying and reviewing every potential goal or penalty situation to feck from all angles, while the game on the pitch has moved on minutes ago.
And the second problem is toe nails and zits being judged offside, again relying on evidence that doesn't reflect what our eyes are seeing even with video review.

Remove the lines from offside review. If it isn't clear and obvious on 'regular' video review, don't rule it. In cases of uncertainty, go back to the rule of letting the decision favour the attacker.
And while we're at it, install two screens on each sideline and let the linesmen perform the offside review after goals scored. It annoys the feck out of me having these faceless cowards deciding the game hidden away from the actual game.

Let the ref, and maybe the captains to a limited degree, demand a video review and then have the ref run over and perform the review himself immediately. Rather that than this BS where we are all waiting around while we are waiting for some backroom faceless men rotating the angles, rewinding back and forth and zooming in on skin pores to find something that absolutely no one in the stadium or on tv caught on first viewing.

They are attempting a level of precision that no one has asked for and no one really wants and is increasingly disconnected from the game everyone else is actually watching.
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I am more concerned about the behaviour of your manager than the use of VAR. Standing there applauding sarcastically at the 4th official for a stonewall penalty is ridiculous
 
The two offsides showcase in a perfect way why VAR is useful. The second one wasn't even marginal, there was clear daylight between Mane and the last defender. But let's go one more time because some people have difficulties in grasping the gist of it: Being offside is like being pregnant, either you are or you're not. If they choose not to check it because it was a close call, a goal will stand that it shouldn't have stood. A goal, you know, the reason why 22 players kick the ball on the pitch. Can't get more clear and obvious than that, really.
 
VAR is the best thing that happened to football since the backpass rule, it will get even better with time.
 
Var is moving the professional game even further away from the sport millions play at a competitive amateur level every weekend around the world. There are penalties being given every week that you would be laughed at for claiming on a Saturday or Sunday morning, and combining VAR with absurd hand ball interpretations is creating something that is having a huge impact on the balance of the game.

One bonus will be its possible impact on the tedium of stat glorification and GOAT lists. When guys are getting 40+ goals a season with 20 pens those are numbers are going to be historically anomalous, and might lead to looking at the game beyond numbers.
 
TheRedDevil'sAdvocate said:
The two offsides showcase in a perfect way why VAR is useful. The second one wasn't even marginal, there was clear daylight between Mane and the last defender. But let's go one more time because some people have difficulties in grasping the gist of it: Being offside is like being pregnant, either you are or you're not. If they choose not to check it because it was a close call, a goal will stand that it shouldn't have stood. A goal, you know, the reason why 22 players kick the ball on the pitch. Can't get more clear and obvious than that, really.
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I agree that the second one shows why VAR is good but the bold text simply isn't true for VAR offsides like the first one... Its more like your most likely might be offside, but you also might well not be.
 
Annihilate Now! said:
I agree that the second one shows why VAR is good but the bold text simply isn't true for VAR offsides like the first one... Its more like your most likely might be offside, but you also might well not be.
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The point is that whether it's marginal or not, getting an offside decision wrong (especially now that we have the technology to double-check it) is a clear and obvious error by the officials in the sense that it can alter the whole course of the game. That's why they're being checked in the first place, because as far as the offside rule is concerned, there is absolutely no room for subjectivity and interpretation. There was room for error, in situations that were very close, but now there are no excuses. Managers and pundits should really stop whinging about it.
 
TheRedDevil'sAdvocate said:
The point is that whether it's marginal or not, getting an offside decision wrong (especially now that we have the technology to double-check it) is a clear and obvious error by the officials in the sense that it can alter the whole course of the game. That's why they're being checked in the first place, because as far as the offside rule is concerned, there is absolutely no room for subjectivity and interpretation. There was room for error, in situations that were very close, but now there are no excuses. Managers and pundits should really stop whinging about it.
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It amazes me how people can’t grasp the concept of a margin of error. Offsides aren’t black or white. There has to a margin of error using the current technology. They’re relying on video footage with a finite framerate. And fractions of a second make a big difference when you’re trying to calculate the precise moment the ball leaves somebody’s foot and where two players are in relation to each other when moving in opposite directions. That creates a margin of error. It has to.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
It amazes me how people can’t grasp the concept of a margin of error. Offsides aren’t black or white. There has to a margin of error using the current technology. They’re relying on video footage with a finite framerate. And fractions of a second make a big difference when you’re trying to calculate the precise moment the ball leaves somebody’s foot and where two players are in relation to each other when moving in opposite directions. That creates a margin of error. It has to.
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They have said that they have the technology to make the right call even with the finest of margins. The last time Klopp was complaining about it in the Everton game, there were people (at least in my part of the world, Liverpool supporters too) who explained why VAR made the right call even though the picture looked deceiving to the naked eye. Just say you don't like VAR and its usage in football instead of trying to find a stick to beat it with, whether you are a manager, a pundit or a fan. And in the case of the managers of the big clubs which are very well used to get these marginal calls in their favour nine times out of ten, allow me to sense a certain amount of dishonesty and arrogance in their cries.
 
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The amount of irrational talk this thing brings out of people is amazing. The pundits and the expert all agree that it’s a penalty by the letter of the law, but then they say “it should be refereed in the context of the game”; as if there were some context in which a penalty isn’t a penalty because of what, other decisions that went before that, one team dominating, protests from players?

You could imagine all these things influencing decisions previously, but Shirley - these are the things that we want out of the game.

Right now it’s just people bending over backwards to criticise VAR under any excuse. Trite like ‘This wouldn’t have been given in my day’ will suffice as analysis.

I was thinking of the whole chicken and the egg thing about media and public opinion, because there was a very vocal minority against it before a ball was even kicked, so the pundits and presenters could have just picked it up. Regardless of who influenced whom first though, there’s a very cynical agenda at work, because this stuff really riles some folk up, and you don’t mind riling people up as a tv presenter. Controversy is great for viewership, get some more outrage from the audience, talking points never dry up. You don’t want some sensible person explaining that there’s nothing to get outraged about and ruining it for everybody.

It’s also funny how the ‘no technology’ people forgot all about one of their previously most dearly held views - that they are against it because “it would kill the discussion down at the pub” and we just can’t have that. Well, on current evidence, they should be chuffed, it has all turned out for the best.
 
Michael Owen and Owen Hargreaves were of the opinion that refs should look at replays at full speed and not in slow motion. According to them, every tackle looks worse in slow motion.
 
cjj said:
That's not really a black and white thing. Poor analogy, for anyone who has had experience of both sides.
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It really is. I'm not talking about the difficulty of the decision for the naked eye but the letter of the law. If any part with which a goal can be scored is behind the last defender, the player is offside. It's not like a penalty decision where you can argue whether the contact has caused the fall or the attacker is milking it. And they are using it because they claim they have the technology to get the offside decisions correct. So getting wrong is clear and obvious, thus it qualifies for check by VAR.

Another thing about Klopp or whoever is that they protest about it when, in truth, they don't know if the linesman would have raised the flag of not. They assume that it would have stayed down in any case. That's not true either.
 
Pundits should just stop talking about VAR because they just look stupid. And i don't know why they are talking about it this much.
If VAR shows that it is offside then it is offside. If Var clearly shows a foul then it is a bloody foul.

Now stupidity reached another level. Now they don't deny is decision right or wrong. Now they argue about should VAR warn ref on his wrong decision. Basically, lets allow mistakes in football.
Fuming here

Edit: from now on i will akways finish my posts here; VAR is the best thing ever introduced in football
 
TheRedDevil'sAdvocate said:
It really is. I'm not talking about the difficulty of the decision but the letter of the law. If any part with which a goal can be scored is behind the last defender, the player is offside. It's not like a penalty decision where you can argue whether the contact has caused the fall or the attacker is milking it. And they are using it because they claim they have the technology to get the offside decisions correct.

Another thing about Klopp or whoever is that they protest about it when, in truth, they don't know if the linesman would have raised the flag of not. They assume that it would have stayed down in any case. That's not true either.
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I agree with the first para.
With regards to the bold bit. You do come to know if the linesman thinks it was offiside or not as they do show what they think by raising or not raising the flag after the phase of play ends. Today in both cases didn't so without VAR the goals would have (wrongly) stood
 
TheRedDevil'sAdvocate said:
It really is. I'm not talking about the difficulty of the decision but the letter of the law. If any part with which a goal can be scored is behind the last defender, the player is offside. It's not like a penalty decision where you can argue whether the contact has caused the fall or the attacker is milking it. And they are using it because they claim they have the technology to get the offside decisions correct.

Another thing about Klopp or whoever is that they protest about it when, in truth, they don't know if the linesman would have raised the flag of not. They assume that it would have stayed down in any case. That's not true either.
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You've missed the point of what I'm saying. "Being pregnant" is a poor analogy as isn't a black or white thing.

A better (less crass) analogy would be to say that offside is like days of the week. There an exact point (00:00) where a day ends and beings and the definition sticks even down to femtoseconds.
 
kiristao said:
I agree with the first para.
With regards to the bold bit. You do come to know if the linesman thinks it was offiside or not as they do show what they think by raising or not raising the flag after the phase of play ends. Today in both cases didn't so without VAR the goals would have (wrongly) stood
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The Mane header wasn't flagged by the linesman? Yikes. That one wasn't even particularly close.
 
sullydnl said:
The Mane header wasn't flagged by the linesman? Yikes. That one wasn't even particularly close.
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Don't think it was as the Liverpool players were all celebrating. It's precisely because of such obvious errors that VAR was brought in.
 
Statue of Limitations said:
Today was a good advertisement for VAR.
Some big decisions, all made correctly.

If they can just keep getting it right, nobody can have any complaints.

Didn't understand Walton's "lowering of the bar" comment though.
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I'm a fan of VAR (technology, not the current implementation) but the Salah one is difficult to tell if it was offside or not. The equipment they have is not accurate enough to say whether or not these millimetre offside calls are onside or offside. Problems include: which frame does the player release the ball and where the lines connect to the players. The implementation is very unscientific and doesn't make much sense at the moment.
 
Sigma said:
I'm a fan of VAR (technology, not the current implementation) but the Salah one is difficult to tell if it was offside or not. The equipment they have is not accurate enough to say whether or not these millimetre offside calls are onside or offside. Problems include: which frame does the player release the ball and where the lines connect to the players. The implementation is very unscientific and doesn't make much sense at the moment.
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How would you make it more scientific?
 
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