Refs & VAR 2020/2021 Discussion

sullydnl said:
It's a good question. It sounds like they're still weighing up bids from several different tech providers but this is what at least one of them was suggesting:

One of the main challenges in the development of an advanced offside technology is the accurate and automated detection of the kick-point. The technology provider informed the group about possible solutions like tracking data from sensor technology or video data from camera systems.

Furthermore, a system has to correctly identify which body part places a player onside or offside. Accuracy tests have shown that human operators tend to pick different body parts for offside lines. Strides have been made in that area as well, with the automated system presented learning to correctly model a player's skeleton. In the future, the developed algorithms of the system should be able to automatically identify which body part placed the player offside and by what distance.

https://www.fifa.com/who-we-are/new...-demonstration-of-advanced-offside-technology

Sounds fancy but I'm sure we'll hear more about the actual accuracy closer to the time.

Still, it should remove the current inconsistencies about which frame is chosen and which parts of the body lines are drawn from. Plus it will apparently be an awful lot quicker, with the VAR getting an alert for offsides in much the same way the ref currently does when the ball crosses the goal-line.

According to Johnson the plan is/was to roll it out for the 2022 world cup, so we won't be waiting too long to see.
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What happens if someone is offside but not involved? Wouldnt the ref get an alert?

I realise im asking a question you probably cant answer.
 
arnie_ni said:
What happens if someone is offside but not involved? Wouldnt the ref get an alert?

I realise im asking a question you probably cant answer.
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From what I've read the VAR would definitely get an alert every time someone is physically offside. Not sure if the ref would too or if they'll use VAR to filter out the irrelevant alerts. Either way the VAR would then have to decide on whether he's interfering in play or not.

Basically it should pretty much be like it is now, except they'll have cut out the couple of minutes delay in actually calculating the offside and they'll be able to consistently measure the moment the ball was played and the parts of the players' bodies they're judging from. In theory, anyway.
 
Has anyone seen or mentioned the Nani red card yet? Just saw it... absolute insanity and incompetence. A near perfect challenge for the ball - gets yellow for it. Then VAR review and he gets red carded instead. Ridiculous.

 
Eli Zee said:
Has anyone seen or mentioned the Nani red card yet? Just saw it... absolute insanity and incompetence. A near perfect challenge for the ball - gets yellow for it. Then VAR review and he gets red carded instead. Ridiculous.

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Nani and ridiculous red cards go hand in hand. If anything VAR is just keeping with tradition.
 
MikeeMike said:
Well maybe we should agree to disagree. If decision is so tight , down to the mm, it is still a mm and can be used to make the decision.
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The margin of error for goal line technology is 3.6mm which you would say is an acceptable tolerence.

The max potential margin of error for and offside call is something like 35cm, that's over a foot in old money or 350mm not far off a 100x that of goal line technology, now that figure is based on the worst possible scenario, but all the calls will have some margin of error some probably quite significant.

I don't know weather they can calculate the margin of error in real time or they can come up with some kind of average, but we cant really rely on the technology to give us the correct decisions if its within the margin of error.

If the margin was only a few mm than there isn't really anything to discuss but clearly it isn't and we a contingency for when the technology is unable to make the correct call.
 
Longshanks said:
The margin of error for goal line technology is 3.6mm which you would say is an acceptable tolerence.

The max potential margin of error for and offside call is something like 35cm, that's over a foot in old money or 350mm not far off a 100x that of goal line technology, now that figure is based on the worst possible scenario, but all the calls will have some margin of error some probably quite significant.

I don't know weather they can calculate the margin of error in real time or they can come up with some kind of average, but we cant really rely on the technology to give us the correct decisions if its within the margin of error.

If the margin was only a few mm than there isn't really anything to discuss but clearly it isn't and we a contingency for when the technology is unable to make the correct call.
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Ok. I’m loving this for comedy value if you intended this. If you didn’t then I apologies but would love how they can calculate a margin of error in real time ?
Also where did you get 3.5mm and 35cm figures from ?
The only error I could think of in goal line technology is video frame rate that does not capture 1 frame where ball is over the line.
For offside, 1 frame shows an offside as ball played then offside.
 
sullydnl said:
It's a good question. It sounds like they're still weighing up bids from several different tech providers but this is what at least one of them was suggesting:

One of the main challenges in the development of an advanced offside technology is the accurate and automated detection of the kick-point. The technology provider informed the group about possible solutions like tracking data from sensor technology or video data from camera systems.

Furthermore, a system has to correctly identify which body part places a player onside or offside. Accuracy tests have shown that human operators tend to pick different body parts for offside lines. Strides have been made in that area as well, with the automated system presented learning to correctly model a player's skeleton. In the future, the developed algorithms of the system should be able to automatically identify which body part placed the player offside and by what distance.

https://www.fifa.com/who-we-are/new...-demonstration-of-advanced-offside-technology

Sounds fancy but I'm sure we'll hear more about the actual accuracy closer to the time.

Still, it should remove the current inconsistencies about which frame is chosen and which parts of the body lines are drawn from. Plus it will apparently be an awful lot quicker, with the VAR getting an alert for offsides in much the same way the ref currently does when the ball crosses the goal-line.

According to Johnson the plan is/was to roll it out for the 2022 world cup, so we won't be waiting too long to see.
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GPS only accurate to 30cm
GPS only updates 6x per second
GPS wouldnt work in many stadiums as it needs large angle of clear view to sky

GPS NO. whoever is considering this as a solution needs to be sacked.
 
MikeeMike said:
Ok. I’m loving this for comedy value if you intended this. If you didn’t then I apologies but would love how they can calculate a margin of error in real time ?
Also where did you get 3.5mm and 35cm figures from ?
The only error I could think of in goal line technology is video frame rate that does not capture 1 frame where ball is over the line.
For offside, 1 frame shows an offside as ball played then offside.
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If goal line tech margin of error is 3.5mm with a moving ball and stationary line it stands to reason that an offside with two moving players is going to need a bigger margin of error than 3.5mm. So saying a mm offside is offside is clearly wrong.
 
MikeeMike said:
Ok. I’m loving this for comedy value if you intended this. If you didn’t then I apologies but would love how they can calculate a margin of error in real time ?
Also where did you get 3.5mm and 35cm figures from ?
The only error I could think of in goal line technology is video frame rate that does not capture 1 frame where ball is over the line.
For offside, 1 frame shows an offside as ball played then offside.
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I said I don't no weather they can calculate a real time margin of error, I doubt it to many variables for offside decisions in would imagine.

Sources
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ex...ogy-WRONG-Man-City-Premier-League-Ederson/amp

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.da...-2-4cm-offside-allowed-13cm-margin-error.html


The fact is there are too many variables with offside calls using current technology to have the required accuracy to allow it to deem a player to be on or offside by a couple of cm, yet that is how it is being used.

It's simple really use the technology to its limits to make the decision, where it is unable to make an accurate decision don't use it.
 
Eli Zee said:
Has anyone seen or mentioned the Nani red card yet? Just saw it... absolute insanity and incompetence. A near perfect challenge for the ball - gets yellow for it. Then VAR review and he gets red carded instead. Ridiculous.

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Perfect example of how the problem is those in charge of training the refs and not the technology that the current refs are provided with. This is exactly the type of thing Micheal Oliver would do and then be backed by his peers instead of questioned. They make it up along the way for the most parts and get awarded for it.
 
MikeeMike said:
Ok. I’m loving this for comedy value if you intended this. If you didn’t then I apologies but would love how they can calculate a margin of error in real time ?
Also where did you get 3.5mm and 35cm figures from ?
The only error I could think of in goal line technology is video frame rate that does not capture 1 frame where ball is over the line.
For offside, 1 frame shows an offside as ball played then offside.
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You realise that reality doesn’t happen “1 frame” at a time? Hence there has to be a margin of error.
 
Longshanks said:
I said I don't no weather they can calculate a real time margin of error, I doubt it to many variables for offside decisions in would imagine.

Sources
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ex...ogy-WRONG-Man-City-Premier-League-Ederson/amp

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.da...-2-4cm-offside-allowed-13cm-margin-error.html


The fact is there are too many variables with offside calls using current technology to have the required accuracy to allow it to deem a player to be on or offside by a couple of cm, yet that is how it is being used.

It's simple really use the technology to its limits to make the decision, where it is unable to make an accurate decision don't use it.
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So what's the alternative? Revert to linesmen (who are many times less accurate than VAR) making those cm calls instead? Because those marginal calls weren't invented by VAR and the wouldn't disappear once you stop using VAR.

People sometimes seem to be under the impression that pre-VAR linesmen just shrugged their shoulders whenever there was a tight decision and always played advantage to the attacker, which simply isn't the case. In reality they were often ruling players offside in situations where it was literally impossible for them to know with any degree of accuracy if the player was actually offside. They just made the most accurate call they could. Presumably people are mistaking the increased scrutiny of offsides brought by VAR with the creation of offside calls they think never existed before.

We see it even now in a lot of the marginal offsides people blame VAR for, which are actually originally called on the pitch by the linesman. If VAR isn't there those offside calls don't magically dissappear. We also see it in leagues where they weren't allowed to use calibrated lines, where linesman didn't stop making the sort of narrow offside calls that infuriated fans. Y'know, the sort of calls that before VAR regularly saw linesmen get described as blind because the player was "clearly" onside.

Or you could opt for the margin of error the Dutch league are using, which is fine but opens up another avenue of complaints when seemingly wrong decisions are allowed to stand because they weren't quite wrong enough.
 
Annihilate Now! said:
Probably should start a new thread for this year.

So, how was that penalty for Liverpool allowed to stand? Are we going to assume that the VAR ref simply didn't know the rules i.e it's not a handball of it deflects off yourself onto your own hand...

If so, that's a bit shit.
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How do you know the arm was not out deliberately?

If the ref thinks its deliberate they can rule it, even at close proximity.

I think its bonkers so many people think a natural position is your arms out like wings, yet mysteriously its different when not in your own boxes having to block crosses and shots. Why is there so many more handballs in boxes than in midfield?
 
Stactix said:
New tactic this season just smash the ball into players hands from inches a way.
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Try that when hand is behind back where it should be or down side of body.

Defenders just need to learn to stop trying to block shots with arms/hands. Its a culture change that is needed.
 
Fox_Chrys said:
How do you know the arm was not out deliberately?

If the ref thinks its deliberate they can rule it, even at close proximity.

I think its bonkers so many people think a natural position is your arms out like wings, yet mysteriously its different when not in your own boxes having to block crosses and shots. Why is there so many more handballs in boxes than in midfield?
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Doesn't matter :

"So a handball will not be awarded if the ball touches a player’s hand/arm directly from their own head/body/foot or the head/body/foot of another player who is close/nearby."

https://www.premierleague.com/news/1263332

Also as for the bold part, it's because defending in the box is more desperate... You have more blocks of shots/more sprinting to close down /get back... So naturally the arms will move out more when you're sprinting /stopping quickly etc.

Also VAR doesn't look at handballs out of the box so there isn't the opportunity to give them like there is in the box
 
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Pogue Mahone said:
You realise that reality doesn’t happen “1 frame” at a time? Hence there has to be a margin of error.
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VAR does happen 1 frame at a time. As I said, if “ONE” frame shows the ball over the line , then it is a goal. No margin of error.
If , a frame shows an offside then it is an offside. What is so difficult to grasp here ?
 
sullydnl said:
So what's the alternative? Revert to linesmen (who are many times less accurate than VAR) making those cm calls instead? Because those marginal calls weren't invented by VAR and the wouldn't disappear once you stop using VAR.

People sometimes seem to be under the impression that pre-VAR linesmen just shrugged their shoulders whenever there was a tight decision and always played advantage to the attacker, which simply isn't the case. In reality they were often ruling players offside in situations where it was literally impossible for them to know with any degree of accuracy if the player was actually offside. They just made the most accurate call they could. Presumably people are mistaking the increased scrutiny of offsides brought by VAR with the creation of offside calls they think never existed before.

We see it even now in a lot of the marginal offsides people blame VAR for, which are actually originally called on the pitch by the linesman. If VAR isn't there those offside calls don't magically dissappear. We also see it in leagues where they weren't allowed to use calibrated lines, where linesman didn't stop making the sort of narrow offside calls that infuriated fans. Y'know, the sort of calls that before VAR regularly saw linesmen get described as blind because the player was "clearly" onside.

Or you could opt for the margin of error the Dutch league are using, which is fine but opens up another avenue of complaints when seemingly wrong decisions are allowed to stand because they weren't quite wrong enough.
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The Dutch system would work, perhaps we could adapt it and say where we are using 'linesman call' we allow the linesman to look at the replay/freezeframe with no lines drawn to give them a chance to change there mind. It's not a question of decisions being wrong enough it's a question of the accuracy of the technology.

Whatever we do, there will always be complaints from those that end up on the wrong side of a tight call.
 
MikeeMike said:
VAR does happen 1 frame at a time. As I said, if “ONE” frame shows the ball over the line , then it is a goal. No margin of error.
If , a frame shows an offside then it is an offside. What is so difficult to grasp here ?
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Because if you took it back slightly further - where the foot and ball are still in contact with each other, it may be onside.

Just because the technology can't get to that frame doesn't mean that moment hasn't existed in real time.

That coupled with the fact that VAR relies on human operators to manual pinpoint lines on people (and thus two different officials may select two different points) means there is clearly a margin for error on both the time frame selection and the offside lines... Especially now that "t-shirt lines" have to be guessed.
 
Annihilate Now! said:
Because if you took it back slightly further - where the foot and ball are still in contact with each other, it may be onside.

Just because the technology can't get to that frame doesn't mean that moment hasn't existed in real time.

That coupled with the fact that VAR relies on human operators to manual pinpoint lines on people (and thus two different officials may select two different points) means there is clearly a margin for error on both the time frame selection and the offside lines... Especially now that "t-shirt lines" have to be guessed.
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There is a frame when player passing contacts the ball for the pass. If in this frame an offside is detected by drawing the lines. It is offside. Again it is simple.

If any frame shows the whole ball over the line then it is a goal. Quite an easy concept.

You seemed to be now dissecting the technology and bringing in new concepts. “T shirt lines have to be guessed”?
 
MikeeMike said:
There is a frame when player passing contacts the ball for the pass. If in this frame an offside is detected by drawing the lines. It is offside. Again it is simple.

If any frame shows the whole ball over the line then it is a goal. Quite an easy concept.

You seemed to be now dissecting the technology and bringing in new concepts. “T shirt lines have to be guessed”?
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The ball being over the line for a goal is a different concept entirely... Because that's a either/or thing. With an offside because the time of contact between foot and ball occurs over multiple milliseconds, one still frame cannot account for all of these milliseconds - and the framerate isn't high enough to account for them either... And because football is so fast and people move at speed, a player maybe turn from onside to offside during those milliseconds.

As for the bold, t-shirt lines do have to be guessed. It's another reason why the technology isn't 100 %accurate and there is a margin for error (along with the frame rate not being high enough)

This is something that has been discussed an accepted by actual referees I should probably add.
 
Annihilate Now! said:
The ball being over the line for a goal is a different concept entirely... Because that's a either/or thing. With an offside because the time of contact between foot and ball occurs over multiple milliseconds, one still frame cannot account for all of these milliseconds - and the framerate isn't high enough to account for them either... And because football is so fast and people move at speed, a player maybe turn from onside to offside during those milliseconds.

As for the bold, t-shirt lines do have to be guessed. It's another reason why the technology isn't 100 %accurate and there is a margin for error (along with the frame rate not being high enough)

This is something that has been discussed an accepted by actual referees I should probably add.
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What are you talking about. The offside call is when the foot contacts the ball. It isn’t any of the frames (or milliseconds). It is first frame where contact is seen. Frame rate is 50/second. so one frame (20 millisonds window) will show contact. If at this point (frame) the offside is seen then offside.

As I said, I cannot see what is hard to understand. By your argument, if we had 1000 frame per second technology, you would be arguing about smaller margins of error? I simply dont understand the issue.

I do hate VAR in a sense that it has killed enjoyment of a goal celebrations due to excessive delays in making decisions. But you cannot “apply common sense” or “advantage to attacker” or “margins of error” because if you do then we get back to a biased scenario and teams complaining about wrong calls.
 
MikeeMike said:
What are you talking about. The offside call is when the foot contacts the ball. It isn’t any of the frames (or milliseconds). It is first frame where contact is seen. Frame rate is 50/second. so one frame (20 millisonds window) will show contact. If at this point (frame) the offside is seen then offside.

As I said, I cannot see what is hard to understand. By your argument, if we had 1000 frame per second technology, you would be arguing about smaller margins of error? I simply dont understand the issue.

I do hate VAR in a sense that it has killed enjoyment of a goal celebrations due to excessive delays in making decisions. But you cannot “apply common sense” or “advantage to attacker” or “margins of error” because if you do then we get back to a biased scenario and teams complaining about wrong calls.
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Read this thread



It isn't 100% accurate... That's my point.
 
MikeeMike said:
What are you talking about. The offside call is when the foot contacts the ball. It isn’t any of the frames (or milliseconds). It is first frame where contact is seen. Frame rate is 50/second. so one frame (20 millisonds window) will show contact. If at this point (frame) the offside is seen then offside.

As I said, I cannot see what is hard to understand. By your argument, if we had 1000 frame per second technology, you would be arguing about smaller margins of error? I simply dont understand the issue.

I do hate VAR in a sense that it has killed enjoyment of a goal celebrations due to excessive delays in making decisions. But you cannot “apply common sense” or “advantage to attacker” or “margins of error” because if you do then we get back to a biased scenario and teams complaining about wrong calls.
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Let's imagine the attacking player is travelling at 10mph, 10 mph is 4.5 meteres per second, if the camera works at 60 frames per second then if we divide 4.5 by 60 that will tell us how much a player has moved in between the frames, the answer is 0.075m or 7.5cm.

We have no idea at what point contact was made with the ball inbetween the frames so the margin of error if the attacking player is travelling 10mph is 7.5cm, so how can we give the player offside if the technology shows them to be only 5cm offside?

Also remember that the defending player is also moving which brings in another margin of error and we really cant be sure that the lines are perfect because we dont have a perfect camera angles to be accurately able to line everything up.
 
Longshanks said:
Let's imagine the attacking player is travelling at 10mph, 10 mph is 4.5 meteres per second, if the camera works at 60 frames per second then if we divide 4.5 by 60 that will tell us how much a player has moved in between the frames, the answer is 0.075m or 7.5cm.

We have no idea at what point contact was made with the ball inbetween the frames so the margin of error if the attacking player is travelling 10mph is 7.5cm, so how can we give the player offside if the technology shows them to be only 5cm offside?

Also remember that the defending player is also moving which brings in another margin of error and we really cant be sure that the lines are perfect because we dont have a perfect camera angles to be accurately able to line everything up.
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I am going to just say politely, I cannot understand your logic at all. You want to introduce a margin of error for a system that picks a frame down to a 60th (120th in 2021] of a second and triangulates using multiple cameras ? So if we consider your “margin of error is 7.5cm” and a player was was shown to be 1cm onside (VAR) what is the call ?

Just imagine showing a freeze frame in stadiums showing a screenshot with player 1cm onside and then giving offside
 
MikeeMike said:
I am going to just say politely, I cannot understand your logic at all. You want to introduce a margin of error for a system that picks a frame down to a 60th (120th in 2021] of a second and triangulates using multiple cameras ? So if we consider your “margin of error is 7.5cm” and a player was was shown to be 1cm onside (VAR) what is the call ?

Just imagine showing a freeze frame in stadiums showing a screenshot with player 1cm onside and then giving offside
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The call is whatever the original onfield decision was. If its 120fps in 2021 than that will halve the margin of error but there will still be one.

It's not introducing a margin of error, it's already there we currently ignore it and go with whatever the technology says resulting in a paradox where we are disallowing goals that the linesman never flagged for and may not actually be offside but were disallowing them anyway .

The linesman should make the decision first and foremost and the technology used within its limits to rule out any genuine mistakes anything so tight that the technology can offer us no accuracy should be left as is.
 
Longshanks said:
The call is whatever the original onfield decision was. If its 120fps in 2021 than that will halve the margin of error but there will still be one.

It's not introducing a margin of error, it's already there we currently ignore it and go with whatever the technology says resulting in a paradox where we are disallowing goals that the linesman never flagged for and may not actually be offside but were disallowing them anyway .

The linesman should make the decision first and foremost and the technology used within its limits to rule out any genuine mistakes anything so tight that the technology can offer us no accuracy should be left as is.
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Ok. So you are saying if, after VAR review , the video frame chosen shows <7.5cm then officials decision stands ?

But, they are told not to flag until passage of play complete. If a goal scored they go to VAR to check offside. In this case they can’t revert to decision as they have been told not to flag.

For me, I hate VAR , and the only way offside decisions ( minutes delay) will stop becoming a farce is to have technology like goal line where Ref gets Onside/Offside indication within seconds.
 
In the Nations League, Alvaro Morata had a goal disallowed that might have been allowed if VAR had been in use. Didn't matter in the end as Spain played so well and won easily.
 
Shame that there's feck all focus on how this is being handled.

Essentially it's an admittance that he's done a piss poor job, to the point that they won't let him referee Liverpool matches, yet other clubs are stuck with the twat
 
UncleBob said:
Shame that there's feck all focus on how this is being handled.

Essentially it's an admittance that he's done a piss poor job, to the point that they won't let him referee Liverpool matches, yet other clubs are stuck with the twat
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Yep, no other team in the league would get away with it either, ref had a poor game tough shit. Dangerous precedent for the FA to set.
 
Isn't the Jesus 'handball' not a handball according to the new rules? Mike Dean literally points to the spot that is now considered to not be handball and yet gives a handball.
 
kiristao said:
Isn't the Jesus 'handball' not a handball according to the new rules? Mike Dean literally points to the spot that is now considered to not be handball and yet gives a handball.
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What new rule?

Where are people suddenly pulling this sleeve nonsense from? Nowhere in the laws does it say anything about this.

Is this just another completely made up rule by media like the whole “daylight” bullshit which was also never a rule?
 
limerickcitykid said:
What new rule?

Where are people suddenly pulling this sleeve nonsense from? Nowhere in the laws does it say anything about this.

Is this just another completely made up rule by media like the whole “daylight” bullshit which was also never a rule?
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That was the explanation given for an Arsenal (I think) handball that was not given.
 
limerickcitykid said:
What new rule?

Where are people suddenly pulling this sleeve nonsense from? Nowhere in the laws does it say anything about this.

Is this just another completely made up rule by media like the whole “daylight” bullshit which was also never a rule?
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Its definitely a new rule and that's why Bamford was offside the other week. Its been posted in this thread

Edit
 
kiristao said:
That was the explanation given for an Arsenal (I think) handball that was not given.
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Explanation from who?

Its not in the laws nor is is mentioned anywhere in the guidelines for refs. Some commentator mentioning it sometime doesn’t make it a rule.

It’s made up nonsense in the pile with all the daylight crap.
 
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