How good was Sanchis at his best @antohan? I only really seen him towards the end of his career but had thought he was more of a sweeper, no? Was he always first choice for Spain?
Redcafe Sheep Draft QF1 - Edgar Allan Pillow vs VivaJanuzaj
- Thread starter Moby
- Start date
Can't actually go to sleep, bloody can I? 
Effenberg is out of equation here as you don't want Ballack running free to the box. Alonso long balls are better in counters than Effenberg imho.
Effenberg is out of equation here as you don't want Ballack running free to the box. Alonso long balls are better in counters than Effenberg imho.
The void is out wide where Branco and Amoros have to defend 2 vs 1 all game. I agree that if Sammer plays in the midfield that central area has no issues and is instead very strong.
Sammer in the defence=The wide areas are covered
Sammer in the midfield=The central areas are covered
The issue is not in Sammer, quite the contrary he is the strength. But the offensive 5 in front of him that lacks defensive cover for the wing-backs(RM/LM job) as well as the work-rate and defensive brilliance.
There is only so much one man can do.
Anyhow I will avoid posting more about it, it really seems like I am more against EAP's side than I am as I am answering to quotes all the time. EAP's side is outstanding whenever they have possession that is pretty clear!
The best German team to play 532 was that 1972 team - which I am in no way suggesting is similar to this - and they played with Muller and Netzer which is surely comparable to Rui Costa and Baggio. The rest of the team are hard workers.
Games aren't usually one sided in terms of - one team dominates possession while the other counters, unless it's a powerhouse team against a significantly weaker side, or one side is based only on possession. I've shown how will I defend against you when you are in control, and how I will counter it. Some parts of the matches I will have possession and you will need to find ways to counter my CMs, and I don't think you want Ballack to try to take on Effenberg when I have the ball, that will be a real problem for you as Effenberg is better offensively than Ballack is defensively. In these parts, Effenberg's effect will be brilliant.
@Annahnomoss don't avoid posting, I was against both EAP and Brwned, and since you're a neutral it doesn't matter to which side your comments leaning towards, if you're a neutral you are being fair...
@Annahnomoss don't avoid posting, I was against both EAP and Brwned, and since you're a neutral it doesn't matter to which side your comments leaning towards, if you're a neutral you are being fair...
As EAP asked me too I will revisit this thread later tonight and respond to some of the questions posed. If any of them are not answered for the next few hours it is not because the team is ill-equipped to do so or the management is unable to devise some sort of complex tactic to deal with these "problems", it's just because I'm busy doing other stuff.
Wimmer is missing and is replaced with Alonso who won't by any means provide that same work-rate and defensive leg work.
Held, Grabowski and Honess were attacking, but had the LM/RM roles covered defensively so the full-backs weren't destroyed and left alone to handle the opponents full-back/winger combination.
The biggest difference is of course that Germany at the time also had a vastly superior individual quality against most, if not all teams too. Imagine a real team with All-time legends like Beckenbauer, Breitner, Müller in the same team with the likes of Schwarzenbeck/Hoeness etc around.
I get your point but at the same time I can't see how it in any means extends to this match and your teams tactics. I am by no means an expert on the side so if you have a different view on it then I'll be happy to hear it.
There hasn't been enough discussion on whether or not Baggio/Rui/Sheva can have a magical night or not.
'72 was pretty much a 433 with Netzer dropping deep into defense to collect the ball? Not entirely sure about all games, but with Vogts injured, it usually was a back 4 of Breitner, Schwarzenbeck, Beckenbauer and Höttges with a midfield 3 of Wimmer, Netzer and Hoeness. I don't think I've ever seen it called a 532. Why do you think it was a 532?
Müller's workrate is underrated, imo, Netzer was a lazy bastard though, no doubt, but he did help defend a bit in those games.
I was going to say the same thing, I checked that in the last draft when I was planning on using Beckenbauer as a back three sweeper but it was a back four for Germany in the Euros I think.
Brwned knows this himself actually because I remember him writing some great posts on that '72 side with Beckenbauer as a CB in a back four. It was in the decades draft IIRC, so I think he's just got mixed up there.
There doesn't need to be discussion about can Baggio/Rui Costa/Shevchenko maybe having a magical night or not, because they can't in the tactics employed to them.
I am not talking about Laudrup's magic either because he's influence will be reduced by Sammer Ballack & Alonso. I don't need to just show videos of his amazing abilities simply to show, because it's less relevant at this match.
Anyway, This is really frustrating, I'm getting slaughtered here with 90% of the voters not bothering to say why I'm losing it, and there is no contradiction for any neutral voter or the managers themselves in regard of which areas can Baggio/Shevchenko/Rui Costa can exploit with my inserted tactics of extremely narrow defense.
This goes to show how many people are really looking only at players on the match and how few are really paying attention to tactics that managers spend hours building and arguing.
At least I'm losing to a really good team. Well done EAP & Brwned.
And no, I'm not taking this too seriously it's all good. Just a tad frustrated that I get no comments on my counter tactics.
I am not talking about Laudrup's magic either because he's influence will be reduced by Sammer Ballack & Alonso. I don't need to just show videos of his amazing abilities simply to show, because it's less relevant at this match.
Anyway, This is really frustrating, I'm getting slaughtered here with 90% of the voters not bothering to say why I'm losing it, and there is no contradiction for any neutral voter or the managers themselves in regard of which areas can Baggio/Shevchenko/Rui Costa can exploit with my inserted tactics of extremely narrow defense.
This goes to show how many people are really looking only at players on the match and how few are really paying attention to tactics that managers spend hours building and arguing.
At least I'm losing to a really good team. Well done EAP & Brwned.
And no, I'm not taking this too seriously it's all good. Just a tad frustrated that I get no comments on my counter tactics.
Well this one is over.
I think the problem with Baggio-Sheva was already established after drafting? Generally in a diamond(or in a magic square) where two strikers play up top, you really don't need a striker to drop deep. It is better to have someone who can stretch the defense by moving out wide at times. Sheva can do that but not here where he will be required to provide a presence in the center. As Viva pointed out, that will mostly allow his full backs to crowd the center even more.
And I do give Baggio credit but if he is working his magic then Costa not so much. Dunno it is just me but I never rated Costa that highly anyway. Just checked, he has 4 goals for Milan in 120 games. That is notoriously low.
I think the problem with Baggio-Sheva was already established after drafting? Generally in a diamond(or in a magic square) where two strikers play up top, you really don't need a striker to drop deep. It is better to have someone who can stretch the defense by moving out wide at times. Sheva can do that but not here where he will be required to provide a presence in the center. As Viva pointed out, that will mostly allow his full backs to crowd the center even more.
And I do give Baggio credit but if he is working his magic then Costa not so much. Dunno it is just me but I never rated Costa that highly anyway. Just checked, he has 4 goals for Milan in 120 games. That is notoriously low.
His best days were at Fiorentina in those times he was rivalling Zidane as the best playmaker in the league.
Aye he was better at Fiorentina and linked up well with Batistuta, Chiesa and Balbo. Oozed class but maybe lacked a wee bit of end product to compare favourably to some of the other great no10s of his era.
He was up there with the greatest 10's of his era no doubt, by many accounts he was at times better than Zidane in the mid 90's. I don't think there was much wrong with his end product either, he laid countless assists on the plate for Shevcenko and Batistuta, Zidane wasn't that much more productive than him tbh, in fact there goal ratios in Italy were pretty similar. Its Zidane's international performances that catapulted him onto the next level.
No, it's more a "player lifecycle" thing than a competence issue. Sanchís was a CB but also played in midfield, so it's not surprising that with age and losing pace/stamina but gaining experience/reading of the game he got used more often as a sweeper. He was excellent, certainly better than Lucio and arguably the best on the pitch after Maldini, but not that great/irreplaceable that he would justify being so high maintenance.
The problem with him was the sort of shit everyone hates about Real. He was a leading light in this whole dressing room cancer thing of theirs whereby players got managers sacked, managers got hired to get rid of certain players, but player power usually prevailed... Tonnes of managers tried get rid of him, and failed miserably. Capello tried to expose him by playing him as a fullback, but as the pressure started getting to him he ended up having to give in and play him in the centre of defence... It's no coincidence he is the one with the Marca column dealing with fan mail
Unfortunately for him, he couldn't have the same sort of shit going for the NT. You have to remember until recently the problem with Spain was Real or Barca. Well, in 1992 Clemente came in, chose the emerging Barca generation with Pep, Amor, Sergi, Ferrer, and got shot of Sanchís and Butragueño in the process.
Went for EAP. Great players in the position he needs them most.
I'm surprised at the gap. I like VivaJ's side but maybe the Chelsea theme in defence is costing him dearly. It's actually Traitor that doesn't quite sit right with me. I can see the point, but would be far more convinced by Effenberg and Rumpelstiltskin.
I can't see that midfield holding him out and, as I said, Mufasa holds the key to this game. Think he would have a blinder here and it is precisely his workrate that prompts me to prefer Rumple on that side. The shit they would get up to together and linking up with Laudrup... feck me, feck Ponytail, it's just pure sex.
I am surprised by the gap as well. EAP has a team worthy to win it, even though I still prefer Viva's, but the gap is not indicative of how close the match should be at all IMO. It's been like that in almost all draft games which is a shame IMO
To be fair though, I don't think it's Terry Carvalho holding him back. It's a very solid defence. The issue for me is that VvJ has great attacking players coming up against a brilliant defence. Both teams are good, but for me the more likely team to break the defence down is EAP. Ballack and Alonso brings so much technical ability in the middle, and Sammer provides the defensive cover needed for his team to make up some of the defensive liabilities of said midfield. Maldini is also a massive plus point
Didn't see that one coming. We've all been warned now, no one try this again!
Well, putting it down to Gallas at RB was mischief
Carvalho has been OKish before, so it must be Captain Lionheart? Or the mobile phone black hole. There's only one thing worse than playing for Chelsea and it's playing away when everyone would love a piece of what you have at home.
Rumple should be playing
Absolutely right. To be honest I'm not sure who I was thinking of and I'm too tired to figure out which German side it was. Regardless, I just think it's ridiculous how people have such rigid views on how teams set up and how formations have to be utilised. To use a more modern example, that wonderful Croatian side in 1998 played in pretty much the same way. Prosinecki and Boban in midfield, Stanic playing just behind Suker...the same criticisms aimed at Ballack could be aimed at Prosinecki and the same criticisms of playing playmaker like Rui Costa in behind a striker who drops off the #9 could be aimed at Stanic and Boban. If I had the time I could find plenty more examples. More than one way to skin a cat and all that.
I'm not really sure what you're saying here. Both Baggio and Shevchenko pulled out wide regularly and naturally and were very threatening from there, and both were threats in behind. You seem to have acknowledged that with Shevchenko (and of course it was abundantly clear when he played alongside the opposition striker Crespo in his Ballon d'Or winning season) but somehow it seems to be an issue with Baggio? I find that bizarre, to be honest. Baggio's two goals against Bulgaria in what is one of the most famous knockout performances of modern history came by doing exactly those two things. The dozens of "Baggio's greatest goals" videos show him doing exactly that again and again.
It can't be just me that is bemused that Baggio is being tagged as someone who simply dropped into midfield like a Zidane or Rui Costa-style #10 rather than the wonderfully rounded attacker who could cause havoc in any area of the attacking third. I mean, I really don't think there's any need to point out that Baggio's dribbling from wide positions could be devastating if the opposition is intent on crowding out the central areas but if people really need evidence of Baggio's ability (and willingness) to get in behind then look no further than how he slips in behind one of the strongest defences in Europe and pulls off one of the most remarkable touches you'll ever see.
As for the Rui Costa comment, if you read comments at the time of Zidane's move to Madrid you can see that he was extremely highly rated:
I'm not trying to suggest that Zidane was inferior to Rui Costa or even that that was a widely held opinion at the time because it wasn't, but the vast majority would acknowledge he was at the very least on the level below him and in some areas - like passing - he was superior.
Agree with that. But then Zidane for all his elegance and genius is another whose goals return doesn't quite stack up when he starts getting compared with the greatest of all time. There's been quite a lot of revisionism where Zidane has moved above players who were outperforming him for large parts of the late 1990s/early 2000s.
Maybe the Euro winning team in '80 ? That's probably our most entertaining 532 side. Though even that often looked like a 433, depending on how you want to call Rummenigge's position/role.
I didn't say anything against it earlier because it made no sense to me and I had no time to explain why it made no sense to me, truthfully. If you're giving Baggio space out wide to run into then he'll gladly drift out there, pick the ball up and drive straight at the defence. As one of multiple very obvious examples...
I can do this for every one of those three. Anyone who watched much of that Crespo-Shevchenko partnership could attest to how dangerous Shevchenko was when pulling wide and he was a superb strike partner for Crespo simply because he was such a rounded attacker. He was a very good dribbler with a great footballing brain and if you give him space to drive at the defence then you're in danger of seeing him let rip from 30 yards as it flies into the top corner. I don't think many people would argue against Shevchenko being the biggest threat from distance in this game and he's got more than enough quality on the ball to use that space and that initial head of steam to drive at your defence, beat a man or two and let rip from distance. Rui Costa likewise was very adept at drifting out to either wing, using his to beat a man or two and then creating something from there. A large portion of his games at Milan came from an inside right position in fact. Instead of spending another paragraph droning on and on about something that (to me) goes without saying, I'll just post a simple video:
If you think that is unrepresentative of his comfortability and influence from a wide position then feel free to watch any other video of him at Milan. He was more than capable of doing damage from a wide position. The only reason Rui Costa was played as a #10 rather than deeper central playmaker (where he started in his early career, notably for the Portuguese side that won the u20 WC (?)) was because of his exceptional close control and his ability to glide past players at will. He had the passing range, the awareness and the ability to control the tempo of the game that would have seen him excel as a centre mid but his dribbling was better utilised elsewhere. And his dribbling here is being put to good use if he's being given space out wide to exploit it. On top of that he had a beautiful cross (as evidenced above, or here from the opposite wing to the same target, or in various other clips).
Honestly, lads, I can't believe I've had to spend 20 minutes talking about how adept these three were at exploiting that space out wide. As far as I'm aware neither me nor EAP have said anything untrue about any of the opposition players and if anything I'd be more inclined to talk about how good the Nedved-Laudrup combination could be or how disappointed I am that Modric was so underrated in the previous game that he had to be dropped but instead here we are defending what I would call bizarre criticisms/suggestions.
EAP has more flair players, with solid defensive midfield and defence. I see Baggio alone could dominate that final third, and adding to that with the pace and cleverness of Shevchenko, who himself is capable dropping deep.
Rui Costa would help the midfield, as he's one of those hardworker AMs ala Maradona who fancy to get involved in the game. I can see the trio of Baggio-Rui Costa-Shevchenko to work interchangeably.
And also the presence of Alonso make it doable to create devastating counter-attack, as Baggio and Shevchenko have pace and skill to exploit any gap.
Rui Costa would help the midfield, as he's one of those hardworker AMs ala Maradona who fancy to get involved in the game. I can see the trio of Baggio-Rui Costa-Shevchenko to work interchangeably.
And also the presence of Alonso make it doable to create devastating counter-attack, as Baggio and Shevchenko have pace and skill to exploit any gap.
Jeez.. this is what you yourself posted in the draft thread
Unless I read that wrong, you basically concede here that Sheva and Baggio are not an ideal partnership. Even go on to mention yourself that Sheva won't get to perform his natural role and would have to just provide a presence upfront for others. I mention something similar and it is a bizarre criticism!
Anyway not my match up so I will leave it be. Carry on.
Unless I read that wrong, you basically concede here that Sheva and Baggio are not an ideal partnership. Even go on to mention yourself that Sheva won't get to perform his natural role and would have to just provide a presence upfront for others. I mention something similar and it is a bizarre criticism!
Anyway not my match up so I will leave it be. Carry on.
It may well have been that but I don't particularly associate that 1980 side with playing a 532...in fact I don't really associate that Germany side with anything except Hrubesch's goals in the final and Schuster running the show. That 1980 side is a decent set-up to address Cutch's concern about whether Sanchís' is all that comfortable playing with Sammer as he is often regarded as a sweeper himself, because for a couple of years Sanchís played alongside Uli Stielike in defence - another German midfielder/sweeper. Sammer is a much more mobile, dominant, powerful kind of sweeper/libero but Stielike was a very clever player with plenty of spacial awareness and he essentially occupied the same role.
I agree. The narrow defence and the accompanying graphic didn't convince me at all to be honest. Voting for EAP on account of slightly more individual quality and a coherent tactical approach.
Jeez.. this is what you yourself posted in the draft thread
Unless I read that wrong, you basically concede here that Sheva and Baggio are not an ideal partnership. Even go on to mention yourself that Sheva won't get to perform his natural role and would have to just provide a presence upfront for others. I mention something similar and it is a bizarre criticism!
Anyway not my match up so I will leave it be. Carry on.
Do you really see that as a similar comment/criticism? They're miles apart, for me. If someone here is saying that Shevchenko is not at his absolute best here because he will have to do more of the running and have less freedom to express himself then I can have no complaints. If you're saying they're not the ideal partnership, I agree. However it's your justification for why that is the case is what is baffling to me. It makes no sense. I don't know how anyone could think that about Baggio. None of what I said in there touches on Baggio being able to play out wide or get in behind..in fact it alludes to the exact opposite. I'd rather we ignore this game for one moment I'd love to hear why it is you think that Baggio stretching the defence either in behind or out wide is out of his comfort zone.
Very surprised at how one sided this is, VJ's side is way better than the voting suggests.
Told you Viva, that Chelsea defense is a cancer on this forum.
feck John Terry
Chelsea players are a canceer. Makelele/Essien in my game.
The defense..
My chelsea spine in the CL draft.
We can't deal with teams that beat us comfortably...
It is the Lionheart without a doubt.Well, putting it down to Gallas at RB was mischief
There's only one thing worse than playing for Chelsea and it's playing away when everyone would love a piece of what you have at home.
Carvalho is the only likable bloke from that back 4 and that gets some sort of credit but not nearly enough for the class he displayed.
Cole is someone who would be hated but still most accept that he was a world class player.
There's nothing for Terry but abuse with the minor-est of minorities giving him any credit.
Less said about Gallas the better. His antics at Arsenal didn't do him any favours. He was a good CB at his prime though, and made an excellent partnership with Thuram at the 06 WC.
While also comfortably boring the shit out of everyone.
Essien and Makelele have gotten due credit IMO. Not together perhaps but otherwise both are rated well. Lampard, Terry, Drogba, Carvalho are just terrible to have.
While also comfortably boring the shit out of everyone.
Essien and Makelele have gotten due credit IMO. Not together perhaps but otherwise both are rated well. Lampard, Terry, Drogba, Carvalho are just terrible to have.
I think that counts for most domestic players to have played in the PL in the last 10 years, the best bet seems to be going with players who played abroad 20 or so years ago, because even if they aren't better than current players, they're romantic and you can 'sale' them better.
Right now, as for this graphic...
First of all I'd just like to say that Nedved outpacing Amoros is just never going to happen which changes the entire makeup of the attack. For anyone who doubts that, just have a look at his wonderful recovery and superbly timed tackle here. And I say this as a true Nedved lover - he is by a distance the first person I would want to add to our team. In this case Nedved is facing up to Amoros with Alonso blocking off the space and cutting out the passing angle to Laudrup while Sammer is marshalling the whole movement of the unit and keeping a close eye on Laudrup and Crespo, judging the threat of the opposition and moving across to close the space off and contain the attack depending on how it develops. It wouldn't be a simple case of Sammer is stepping into midfield and cancelling out Laudrup as some people have alluded to in this game. That's not how the team is set up and that is not how the game would play out. I could make a similar graphic with Baggio drifting out wide on the left in between midfield and fullback with Rui Costa out wide right with the ball at his feet and Shevchenko pulling onto the back post as Rui Costa shapes up to either play an inch-perfect cross or thread a lovely ball through to Baggio to shimmy and shift and work himself a bit of space outside the box to then curl one in or slot it through to Shevchenko as he slips in behind Terry. I could do that. I just don't think it adds anything to the game because the game is so fluid and people are so aware of this that it won't show anything resembling reality. Unless it's catenaccio against an old-fashioned W-M then you won't be able to accurately represent anything that would take place in this game...and even then it would be a stretch.
I just had to contest this point so that it would refute any suggestion that VJ came up with some rock-solid tactical plan that the opposition couldn't defend against so instead decided to ignore it altogether. Or that VJ lost the game simply because he lacked the star quality to win votes despite having the much more cohesive, coherent, thoughtful system and setup. Let's not go down that route. I don't think the loss should be this convincing but there are no key flaws here that he can exploit that are being overlooked by thoughtless voters or anything of the sort.
My Team steals the ball and going on counter:
One of my midfielders/full backs takes the ball, spreads it wide, in this graph - to Nedved, who outruns Amoros with his pace and on the account that he is facing the opponent's goal while Amoros needs to turn around, Laudrup is being watched by only Sammer leaving a situation of Laudrup-Nedved-Crespo(and sometimes Sanchez) against Maldini-Sammer-Sanchis(and sometimes Xabi if he stays deep, because he doesn't have pace to get as quickly as needed to stop this).
First of all I'd just like to say that Nedved outpacing Amoros is just never going to happen which changes the entire makeup of the attack. For anyone who doubts that, just have a look at his wonderful recovery and superbly timed tackle here. And I say this as a true Nedved lover - he is by a distance the first person I would want to add to our team. In this case Nedved is facing up to Amoros with Alonso blocking off the space and cutting out the passing angle to Laudrup while Sammer is marshalling the whole movement of the unit and keeping a close eye on Laudrup and Crespo, judging the threat of the opposition and moving across to close the space off and contain the attack depending on how it develops. It wouldn't be a simple case of Sammer is stepping into midfield and cancelling out Laudrup as some people have alluded to in this game. That's not how the team is set up and that is not how the game would play out. I could make a similar graphic with Baggio drifting out wide on the left in between midfield and fullback with Rui Costa out wide right with the ball at his feet and Shevchenko pulling onto the back post as Rui Costa shapes up to either play an inch-perfect cross or thread a lovely ball through to Baggio to shimmy and shift and work himself a bit of space outside the box to then curl one in or slot it through to Shevchenko as he slips in behind Terry. I could do that. I just don't think it adds anything to the game because the game is so fluid and people are so aware of this that it won't show anything resembling reality. Unless it's catenaccio against an old-fashioned W-M then you won't be able to accurately represent anything that would take place in this game...and even then it would be a stretch.
I just had to contest this point so that it would refute any suggestion that VJ came up with some rock-solid tactical plan that the opposition couldn't defend against so instead decided to ignore it altogether. Or that VJ lost the game simply because he lacked the star quality to win votes despite having the much more cohesive, coherent, thoughtful system and setup. Let's not go down that route. I don't think the loss should be this convincing but there are no key flaws here that he can exploit that are being overlooked by thoughtless voters or anything of the sort.
It's not much with other players. Chelsea is hated a lot more than others. Most accuse them of "buying the league" and playing some really boring football, which is still going on. In reality, those combos would get you a win like they used to but not here.
It's not the same with other I think. Arsenal players are rated well (Vieira, Henry, Bergkamp, etc). Liverpool never had anyone apart from Gerrard who wouldn't get much credit here for obvious reasons.
And anyway, Serie A from 80s to late 90s and early 00s had teams filled with the best players in the world. PL only started to match that somewhat in mid 00s but still never reached that level and La Liga had most superstars during that time. It's not to do with being romantic or anything, but PL had very few players in comparison which would be considered at the same level.