Redcafe Sheep Draft - Balu vs Polaroid

[Balu]

Yes I remember that, Gilmar wasn't it?

Yes, Gilmar was a hero. Kahn's getting old, thought he could still do a job here with 44, but nope, should have picked the 27year old that saved all the penalties today, clearly my fault .

Woah, i did not know that, I came in at 11-10 i think

He even started to talk about reinforcements, that it sucks that Brehme isn't available. 4 votes are nothing really, especially when the game is close, many users often vote for the team that's behind to bring it closer together. I did that as well several times, when I believe the game deserves a draw. Wasn't surprised that it went to penalties in the end.

Great finish for this game.

 

[Moby]

Great discussion, youtube diarrhea, unbelievable penalty drama, best game I have been in! credit to @AldoPaine18 , @Balu and all who contributed

Thanks Pol, glad you enjoyed it.

Good game, @Polaroid

Thanks for the commentary here @AldoPaine18 Sorry, that my Germans fecked it up so badly and it was all over way too early

It was a bit mental when I looked at it, you both chose completely randomly and not with a pattern like it happens at times yet it just kept on matching!

That was a great read. Well done lads! I am slightly questioning my path in life though. A 30 year old man, spending his Friday afternoon sat on his arse at home frantically hitting F5 to keep up to date with an imaginary penalty shoot out...

It's all your fault, you jinxed it when I was 11-7 up .

I really thought it was unlikely for a comeback, though. I also counted anto's one vote. But unlucky for you that some of the fence sitters voted for Pol, perhaps as you said they did so to make it a draw. You have been really awesome in the two drafts you have participated so I hope you keep getting involved till this one goes on.

 

[Balu]

I really thought it was unlikely for a comeback, though. I also counted anto's one vote. But unlucky for you that some of the fence sitters voted for Pol, perhaps as you said they did so to make it a draw. You have been really awesome in the two drafts you have participated so I hope you keep getting involved till this one goes on.

I already asked Anto yesterday to help him organise the next one, because I need a break from participating. I make sure I'll pay you back for your jinxing here

 

[Moby]

I already asked Anto yesterday to help him organise the next one, because I need a break from participating. I make sure I'll pay you back for your jinxing here

Quite the opposite for me, after watching this one from the sidelines I need to get some action so looking forward for the next one. I have anyway started playing one in the meantime in that other forum bigsoccer but that's gonna go real slow. It has 30 odd managers with 72 hour deadlines and all.

 

[Isotope]

Surely proven winner players have more weight than recent players?

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

Great match and a really fun read throughout the match! Really lived up to the hype of the best match of the round.

 

[antohan]

That shootout was mean I wondered why Balu went Kahn over Neuer. Assumed it was just to have more mean faces on his pictograms. Never again now I guess.

Anyhow, despite asking Balu several times about man-marking Zidane and saying I would, I thought he deserved to win for not doing it.

• Would it have been easier to say the opposite? Definitely.
  
• Did he have a good case for not doing it? Yes.
  
• Were his team capable of pulling it off? Sure, risky but doable.
• Would they? I reckon he would have been rewarded, with the players really playing for their manager and Sammer probably having the game of his life.

OK, bit romantic and feck all to do with Pol, but this was tight and it certainly would go down to that decision and whether it worked or backfired. Think it would have worked.

 

[Balu]

It was kinda sweet how you mentioned again and again that I should reconsider it . As if you were trying to say, 'just do it', 'get over yourself', 'you win the game, if you do it', 'don't be stubborn'. Well, I am stubborn, I had a plan for the team early on and wanted to go with it, that's what I did. And I still believe it's the best decision for this game.

 

[Moby]

It was, putting Sammer on one man for the whole game is a waste, given how much influence he can have as a proper libero.

I still don't know why you fired Frings, were you ever planning to use Basler? Frings would have been a good option to come on when you had the lead and close the game, or perhaps would have started as a lot thought it would have been a better option than Kroos.

 

[Balu]

Because Kroos makes my team significantly more dangerous in attack and I actually trust Sammer to do a hell of a job there. It's what I wrote about during the last draft, you need to put those all time greats to work instead of giving them protection and backups. That's not how they became great. No one seemed to care about my attacking potential though, not once did anyone answer my questions about how Pol will defend against my team. His back 4 was a mess, imo.

 

[Moby]

Because Kroos makes my team significantly more dangerous in attack and I actually trust Sammer to do a hell of a job there. It's what I wrote about during the last draft, you need to put those all time greats to work instead of giving them protection and backups. That's not how they became great. No one seemed to care about my attacking potential though, not once did anyone answer my questions about how Pol will defend against my team. His back 4 was a mess, imo.

Yeah but they hardly every faced similar quality teams in real either. So to counter that you have to make additions that wouldn't let something hamper their contribution.

I am anyway always in favour of pragmatism over risky stunts. I've lost many a time in these due to that but I wouldn't change doing that, because I give the opposition the deserved respect (at times a bit too much). I don't think I've had a team without two defensive minded players in midfield, because in these drafts the combinations you come up against, your attack would be useless if you cannot stop the opposition from getting on the ball and dominating in the first place.

 

[Balu]

Yeah but they hardly every faced similar quality teams in real either. So to counter that you have to make additions that wouldn't let something hamper their contribution.

I am anyway always in favour of pragmatism over risky stunts. I've lost many a time in these due to that but I wouldn't change doing that, because I give the opposition the deserved respect (at times a bit too much). I don't think I've had a team without two defensive minded players in midfield, because in these drafts the combinations you come up against, your attack would be useless if you cannot stop the opposition from getting on the ball and dominating in the first place.

What do you mean by hardly ever faced similar quality teams? The two teams in this game aren't better than some of the CL teams we see today? And how is a midfield of Sammer, Effenberg, Kroos not defensive minded enough? Especially when I have an outstanding centerback pair, that has to deal with only one striker and therefore can help out on the wing without leaving the striker unmarked? Let's assume I play Frings instead of Kroos, what the feck are Sammer and Buchwald supposed to do, if Frings is on Zidane, Effenberg on Redondo and Kohler on Eto'o?

And I still don't get an answer how he's defending against me with Kroos in the team? Petit + Redondo against Kroos, Effenberg and Scholl in midfield with Klinsmann and Müller terrorising his centerbacks? How is that not a huge huge problem for him? I'm really lost.

The whole game was about: 'You don't man-mark Zidane, you loose'. That's it? That's the only explanation I got here.

 

[Moby]

What do you mean by hardly ever faced similar quality teams? The two teams in this game aren't better than some of the CL teams we see today? And how is a midfield of Sammer, Effenberg, Kroos not defensive minded enough? Especially when I have an outstanding centerback pair, that has to deal with only one striker and therefore can help out on the wing without leaving the striker unmarked? Let's assume I play Frings instead of Kroos, what the feck are Sammer and Buchwald supposed to do, if Frings is on Zidane, Effenberg on Redondo and Kohler on Eto'o?

And I still don't get an answer how he's defending against me with Kroos in the team? Petit + Redondo against Kroos, Effenberg and Scholl in midfield with Klinsmann and Müller terrorising his centerbacks? How is that not a huge huge problem for him? I'm really lost.

The whole game was about: 'You don't man-mark Zidane, you loose'. That's it? That's the only explanation I got here.

I would say Sammer's maximum game would be spent in defense closing any gaps, and holes that are left and organizing the unit. Did not he do the same in 97 final? And left Lambert to give personal attention to Zidane. You did not have anyone to perform that role. As for Kroos I said it earlier in another thread that I much prefer him at AM. Correct me if I am wrong but didn't loew try a double pivot of Bastian and Kroos which was proven to be porous?

And that's exactly the point, Sammer gets the freedom if there's one man on Zidane (Frings) most times and he can concentrate on not letting anything pass through the defense.

And no, you cannot compare any real team to these teams. You are forgetting that we are not just taking a group of players but everyone at their very best. Tell me a real life team who had all time/modern greats in most positions while also each and every one of them being at their peak? It's a completely different level.

 

[Moby]

And anyway my reason didn't have much to do with Zidane. It was Redondo who was tearing the game apart for me while most of the opposition was busy taking care of Zidane.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

And anyway my reason didn't have much to do with Zidane. It was Redondo who was tearing the game apart for me while most of the opposition was busy taking care of Zidane.

Maybe we should have taken heed of anto's suggestion and voted tactically to tear Redondo/Zidane apart.

 

[antohan]

Maybe we should have taken heed of anto's suggestion and voted tactically to tear Redondo/Zidane apart.

Eh? I didn't suggest we do at all. If Pol lost then someone else would get Redondo and Zidane. E.g. Viva gets Redondo and makes it Redondo-Laudrup, no fecking difference then, is there? My point was the "tactical" vote was to dispose of the German team, yet we weren't doing it. Ergo, that tactical voting is a figment of people's imagination...

I should probably start spelling things out or shutting up

 

[Balu]

I would say Sammer's maximum game would be spent in defense closing any gaps, and holes that are left and organizing the unit. Did not he do the same in 97 final? And left Lambert to give personal attention to Zidane. You did not have anyone to perform that role. As for Kroos I said it earlier in another thread that I much prefer him at AM. Correct me if I am wrong but didn't loew try a double pivot of Bastian and Kroos which was proven to be porous?

And that's exactly the point, Sammer gets the freedom if there's one man on Zidane (Frings) most times and he can concentrate on not letting anything pass through the defense.

And no, you cannot compare any real team to these teams. You are forgetting that we are not just taking a group of players but everyone at their very best. Tell me a real life team who had all time/modern greats in most positions while also each and every one of them being at their peak? It's a completely different level.

You do realise that Juve played with 2 strikers in '97, right? Which changes the role for the libero quite a bit? Of course Kohler + Kree need more help from Sammer against Vieri and Boksic in comparison to Kohler + Buchwald against Eto'o? And Again, it was Sammer, Effenberg + Kroos vs Zidane and Redondo. That's hardly a bad setup with the main goalscorer in the team up against two outstanding centerbacks. Redondo controling the game in midfield doesn't equal goals and it certainly doesn't mean that I won't ever have the ball to create something for my team.

If you believe that Zidane and Redondo needed a DM to mark them out of the game for every game they played in, then you're simply massively overrating single games instead of judging their performances over the years in which they peaked. There's nothing I can do then.

 

[Moby]

You do realise that Juve played with 2 strikers in '97, right? Which changes the role for the libero quite a bit? Of course Kohler + Kree need more help from Sammer against Vieri and Boksic in comparison to Kohler + Buchwald against Eto'o? And Again, it was Sammer, Effenberg + Kroos vs Zidane and Redondo. That's hardly a bad setup with the main goalscorer in the team up against two outstanding centerbacks. Redondo controling the game in midfield doesn't equal goals.

That last sentence is the root of our disagreement and perhaps the difference in perception of Redondo's role. Reason I rate him so highly because for me he's the closest it gets to being a one man midfield, and he regularly did the job of two players in the team. His forward play was scintillating a lot of times, and with his tactical awareness and intelligence which for me is really second to none, him being let to dictate the proceeding equals chances created in my book. It is also tough as hell to take the ball off him in tight situations, which is terrible to deal with because he can find his teammates very accurately even when being close down. Anto said the exact same in his first comment that even if you had done your work needed to handle Zizou, the team's manufacturing of chances doesn't end there, and that's a big factor for me, to have such a world class source as a secondary source to dictate play and make things happen.

Zizou in his career very rarely played with such a midfielder in the same team. He had the likes of Deschamps, Davids, Makelele, Guti, Vieira and Petit over his career and most of those names were there to provide immense energy and workrate that would win the ball back often and hand it to Zidane leaving everything on the forward front to him. And that is why he has such a legacy that despite lacking quality support in terms of creativity from the rest of the team he managed to single handedly come up with chance after chance. Now here he is playing ahead of someone who can continuously do that himself even if not in a obvious way like Zidane does.

I didn't see your team coping up with that combination. You had to give extra attention to one of them which would just mean more space to the other and it was danger either way.

And I agree that it is not like they will have clear cut chances and all. In the post where I summarized my reason to vote for Pol, I clearly mentioned that despite players like Redondo and Zidane seeing so much of the ball, given your defensive class, connection and mentality, you will hold out quite well for most part of the game but it will still be a couple of chances that Eto'o wouldn't miss. It would be the narrowest of wins.

 

[Balu]

You're simply massively overrating the attacking players in comparison to the defenders. Kohler at his peak shut better players than Eto'o out, Buchwald as well. I have a spare man there in defense with Buchwald as well, if Kohler is on Eto'o.

From the start you dismissed brilliant defensive performances against worldclass attackers as a 'bad day'. It's just ridiculous. The gap between his midfield and mine isn't as big as between his defense and mine, especially if we look at how they would work as a unit. But yeah, let's agree to disagree here.

 

[Moby]

You're simply massively overrating the attacking players in comparison to the defenders. Kohler at his peak shut better players than Eto'o out, Buchwald as well. I have a spare man there in defense with Buchwald as well, if Kohler is on Eto'o.

From the start you dismissed brilliant defensive performances against worldclass attackers as a 'bad day'. It's just ridiculous. The gap between his midfield and mine isn't as big as between his defense and mine, especially if we look at how they would work as a unit. But yeah, let's agree to disagree here.

That goes for all players man. Eto'o has also unlocked tight defenses in big games. His goal changed the course of the game in 09 CL final against a defense that had set domestic records in PL few months ago.

Talking about difference between his defense and your defense in the same breath as difference between his midfield and your midfield doesn't really make sense. Both midfields are up against each other so obviously the difference between them would taken into direct account. His defense could be worse than yours, and surely is, but if your attack isn't getting enough chance to attack them then what's the point?

 

[Balu]

That goes for all players man. Eto'o has also unlocked tight defenses in big games. His goal changed the course of the game in 09 CL final against a defense that had set domestic records in PL few months ago.

Talking about difference between his defense and your defense in the same breath as difference between his midfield and your midfield doesn't really make sense. Both midfields are up against each other so obviously the difference between them would taken into direct account. His defense could be worse than yours, and surely is, but if your attack isn't getting enough chance to attack them then what's the point?

Why? You still haven't commented once about how his midfield defends against Sammer, Effenberg, Kroos, Scholl. All you say is that Redondo runs the midfield, big deal, he gets 55% possession or whatever. My players aren't mugs, you know, they unlocked tight defense time and time again. They actually played brilliant football against Real with Redondo quite often. Bayern put 4 past Real twice in the CL in 99/00, won 3 out of 4 games against them. Effenberg looked pretty much the better player in those games and he's surrounded by clearly superior players here, for example a peak Sammer instead of a 40 year old Matthäus. You make it sound like Pol is going to have Barca like possession here and starves me off the ball, fecking nonsense. It's an open game, it always was with Zidane and Redondo, they weren't possession crazy, they wanted to play football. How will I don't get chances here?

Müller and Klinsmann have unlocked tight defenses in big games as well. Remember Klinsmann's game against the Netherlands? And there are countless more examples.

Have you seen how many goals in big games Müller scored in recent years? Bale is far far away from something comparable so far in his career, as talented as he may be. Have you watched Kroos control the game against Real in the CL semifinals 2 years ago, when Schweinsteiger wasn't fit at all, that was far more impressive than the hyped up Arsenal game 2 weeks ago. And he has gotten better since.

 

[Moby]

Why? You still haven't commented once about how his midfield defends against Sammer, Effenberg, Kroos, Scholl. All you say is that Redondo runs the midfield, big deal, he gets 55% possession or whatever. My players aren't mugs, you know, they unlocked tight defense time and time again. They actually played brilliant football against Real with Redondo quite often. Bayern put 4 past Real twice in the CL in 99/00, won 3 out of 4 games against them. Effenberg looked pretty much the better player in those games and he's surrounded by clearly superior players here, for example a peak Sammer instead of a 40 year old Matthäus. You make it sound like Pol is going to have Barca like possession here and starves me off the ball, fecking nonsense. It's an open game, it always was with Zidane and Redondo, they weren't possession crazy, they wanted to play football. How will I don't get chances here?

Müller and Klinsmann have unlocked tight defenses in big games as well. Remember Klinsmann's game against the Netherlands? And there are countless more examples.

Have you seen how many goals in big games Müller scored in recent years? Bale is far far away from something comparable so far in his career, as talented as he may be. Have you watched Kroos control the game against Real in the CL semifinals 2 years ago, when Schweinsteiger wasn't fit at all, that was far more impressive than the hyped up Arsenal game 2 weeks ago. And he has gotten better since.

It doesn't really work like that. You keep picking single games to prove your point, by that logic everytime someone picks Hagi in a draft he should automatically win against a team that has Redondo because he got the better of him in that WC game? Or everytime someone has Redondo he would win against a team with Keane in it? Or everytime someone has Torres he would automatically get a goal against a team with Vidic in it? That was a different game, this is different. Everything from tactics to personnel to each and every circumstance is different, so I don't see the point of bring it up again and again.

If you doubt Redondo's class and quality over his career, bring that up. That's completely your opinion and a lot more valid than individual performances. Can't Pol dig up games where CMs worse than Redondo overshadowed Effenberg at his peak? Sahin overshadowed Schweinsteiger in 10/11 season when Dortmund won 3-1, there's no end to these and they mean nothing.

Back to this game, the amount of percentage is hardly relevant. Barca had more percentage against Bayern, what did they do? They lost 7-0 over two legs. The important point is two players who bring insane intelligence and decision making and also top quality ability on the ball would have the ball for a lot of time in the match, and it would be enough to get a couple of chances past your great defense. Whereas your strategy is dependent counters which I don't see having the same impact. Your players are no mugs but are also not in the same league as Zidane and Redondo when it comes to quality on the ball.

Your counters depend on your wingbacks a lot who don't have the license to go forward because of his wide players. If you do you will shoot your own foot by inviting 2v2s and 3v3s. Secondly, he has incredible pace in his defense which would be useful against counters being even less effective. Thirdly, in Rio Ferdinand he has someone who played a high line for most of his career and pulled it off against the paciest players. Watch Liverpool vs United at Anfield in 07/08 season, the season where Torres was unstoppable and came third in ballon d'or. Rio matched his pace and tracked him everytime he made a run. If there's a CB who wouldn't be troubled by pace it is Rio. And lastly, don't forget that there are two DMs shielding the defense and one of them is an exceptional reader of the game, much like Rio, and it would be very difficult to catch them off guard, which is essential for counters.

I understand your frustration, we have all been there. I have played drafts for over 5 years and most times when I build a team I believe that it is good enough to come over anyone. It is natural to feel that way because you have a particular vision and you get players to execute that and in your eyes they can get a result against anyone.

 

[Balu]

Wtf? I'm trying to argue that the gap isn't as big as you make it sound, that's the point. You paint Redondo as that superhuman, perfect player and ignore a bad match-up, you ignore the type of teams he excelled against and the type of teams he struggled against. Of course that plays a huge role, you're just ignoring all the context and focus on what you liked about the player and big him up in a way that is simply unfair towards my players. I said before that Redondo is the better player as Effenberg, no doubt about that. The gap isn't that big though and it certainly won't lead to me not creating anything.

Back to this game, the amount of percentage is hardly relevant. Barca had more percentage against Bayern, what did they do? They lost 7-0 over two legs. The important point is two players who bring insane intelligence and decision making and also top quality ability on the ball would have the ball for a lot of time in the match, and it would be enough to get a couple of chances past your great defense. Whereas your strategy is dependent counters which I don't see having the same impact. Your players are no mugs but are also not in the same league as Zidane and Redondo when it comes to quality on the ball.

Why does everyone ignore the winning the ball back part. It doesn't matter if Zidane and Redondo are better on the ball, when my team is clearly superior in defending. You again ignore, how he gets the ball back, how he prevents me from scoring. This game is nothing like the Barca - Bayern tie. Why am I solely reliant on counters? I have the ball, how does he win it back? Is Zidane playing pressing against Effenberg and Sammer? Who's tracking Scholl? Is Gallas coming inside or is Petit on him, and if he is, who's on Effenberg and Kroos? Is Alaba coming inside or does he have an eye on Müller's movement? Saying Zidane and Redondo are better on the ball is completely irrelevant for all that. No one ever answered those questions.

I understand your frustration, we have all been there. I have played drafts for over 5 years and most times when I build a team I believe that it is good enough to come over anyone. It is natural to feel that way because you have a particular vision and you get players to execute that and in your eyes they can get a result against anyone.

I'm not frustrated about the game. I don't give a feck about winning really, if that was the case, I would have played the game differently. I enjoy discussing this, that's why I continue to answer. I'm sticking up for my players here, because they are underrated and deserve way more credit than you give them in comparison and because I believe that your idea of how the game would play out is completely wrong. That doesn't mean, I believe I deserve to win this game, I believe a draw with penalites is a fair result, so I'm good with that.

Also don't forget, you started the discussion here after the game by asking me about Frings :P. I was done with this game yesterday.

 

[Moby]

Wtf? I'm trying to argue that the gap isn't as big as you make it sound, that's the point. You paint Redondo as that superhuman, perfect player and ignore a bad match-up, you ignore the type of teams he excelled against and the type of teams he struggled against. Of course that plays a huge role, you're just ignoring all the context and focus on what you liked about the player and big him up in a way that is simply unfair towards my players. I said before that Redondo is the better player as Effenberg, no doubt about that. The gap isn't that big though and it certainly won't lead to me not creating anything.



Why does everyone ignore the winning the ball back part. It doesn't matter if Zidane and Redondo are better on the ball, when my team is clearly superior in defending. You again ignore, how he gets the ball back, how he prevents me from scoring. This game is nothing like the Barca - Bayern tie. Why am I solely reliant on counters? I have the ball, how does he win it back? Is Zidane playing pressing against Effenberg and Sammer? Who's tracking Scholl? Is Gallas coming inside or is Petit on him, and if he is, who's on Effenberg and Kroos? Is Alaba coming inside or does he have an eye on Müller's movement? Saying Zidane and Redondo are better on the ball is completely irrelevant for all that. No one ever answered those questions.


I'm not frustrated about the game. I don't give a feck about winning really, if that was the case, I would have played the game differently. I enjoy discussing this, that's why I continue to answer. I'm sticking up for my players here, because they are underrated and deserve way more credit than you give them in comparison and because I believe that your idea of how the game would play out is completely wrong. That doesn't mean, I believe I deserve to win this game, I believe a draw with penalites is a fair result, so I'm good with that.

Also don't forget, you started the discussion here after the game by asking me about Frings :P. I was done with this game yesterday.

But every player in the history of the game has had bad games. At all levels. I am not trying to imply that it is impossible that Redondo would not impact the game or for that matter Effenberg would have a better game, it is possible of course. But the higher probability is that Redondo would stamp his authority like he used to do usually. I gave the Messi example earlier. Would you criticize him in a draft game if he's supposed to be at his peak but comes against a team that functions the same way Chelsea did? I never would.

Your defending is superior which is acknowledged when I say that even a combination such as Redondo and Zidane would only manage to break it a couple of times with a finisher like Eto'o.

Who's tracking Scholl? He has two DMs. It would take me back where I said Redondo spent his career doing the job of two players and that is one of the biggest reason he is rated so highly. Redondo was also an expert in tactical fouling - another tool against counters. Those two DMs compliment each other and I would take that pair ahead of yours, and his pair is against Scholl while yours is against Zidane.

And I don't think your players were underrated, as the result of the voting clearly shows. You don't have any traditional vote winner in your team comparable to Zidane or Redondo for that matter. So surely your players were rated correctly otherwise how else would you have gotten all those votes?

It is okay if you disagree with my assessment of the game. At the end of the day we are both talking in completely hypothetical terms and no one can claim to say anything for certain.

 

[Annahnomoss]

I agree with Aldo. In my eyes people rated Balu's players perfectly fair and Polaroids players got underrated quite a bit. Balu is great at the tactical write up and participating in the threads which I think were the reason that this turned in to a draw.

The sheep draft ventures away from "Managing your team" to a game more similar to Bingo. Well Polaroid got Bingo with Redondo and Zidane and he basically has two first picks.

 

[Balu]

I gave the Messi example earlier. Would you criticize him in a draft game if he's supposed to be at his peak but comes against a team that functions the same way Chelsea did? I never would.

Messi is in my opinion a bad example, but I believe certain teams and certain players often struggled against a certain type of teams and that should count, yes. Bad luck, if you draw an opponent who built a side that plays that way. If I was up here against a Italian side, build around an idea of football that time and time again knew how to beat German teams, then that should play a huge role, even if my team had overall superior players.

If you just look at who had overall a better career, then fair enough, doesn't make sense to me though, because it takes away a huge part of what makes the game in reality so exciting and I don't see any reason why it shouldn't be reflected in these fantasy draft games. There's quite simply a reason, why Bayern has won 12 and lost only 6 out of 20 games against Real, while we won only 1 and lost 6 out of 10 games against Milan. Those clubs play different styles and when they face each other it showed time and time again, what worked and what didn't. I said it before, the great German club sides and the nationalteam rarely looked bad against Galactico teams, you really can fight that with classic German traits. We struggled massively against brilliant organisation and effectiveness though, that's why we never beat Italy in a competitive game.

 

[Moby]

Messi is in my opinion a bad example, but I believe certain teams and certain players often struggled against a certain type of teams and that should count, yes. Bad luck, if you draw an opponent who built a side that plays that way. If I was up here against a Italian side, build around an idea of football that time and time again knew how to beat German teams, then that should play a huge role, even if my team had overall superior players.

If you just look at who had overall a better career, then fair enough, doesn't make sense to me though, because it takes away a huge part of what makes the game in reality so exciting and I don't see any reason why it shouldn't be reflected in these fantasy draft games. There's quite simply a reason, why Bayern has won 12 and lost only 6 out of 20 games against Real, while we won only 1 and lost 6 out of 10 games against Milan. Those clubs play different styles and when they face each other it showed time and time again, what worked and what didn't. I said it before, the great German club sides and the nationalteam rarely looked bad against Galactico teams, you really can fight that with classic German traits. We struggled massively against brilliant organisation and effectiveness though, that's why we never beat Italy in a competitive game.

It's somewhere in between though, and for me things change from one game to another absolutely enormously. And probably emphasize on that a lot higher then others and that is why I absolutely detest stats of any kind. You mentioned a span of 20 games, now I obviously haven't watched all of them but I can say for certain that you cannot label 20 different football matches with one general approach, even if there were similarities. I respect the individuality of a football game and consider that so many things change that even if you failed against one tactic yesterday, you can overcome it the next day with the same team because it's not the same game and everything changes. I understand what you are saying and it is completely valid. But for me I generally don't like this rigid thought process which makes your thinking a lot more narrow minded than it should be because it makes you think in 0s and 1s, I mean, like you said, because you have seen a particular team/club fail to perform at his best against a particular tactic, you have that image in mind and you are predicting something that hasn't happened based on that. While in reality, it bears absolutely no connection.

I don't know if all that makes any sense to you but that's how I generally think. You would be thinking why am I saying all this when earlier I was saying how 5-3-2 was countered by 4-2-3-1 and what not, but that's why I said the solution is somewhere in the middle. While you obviously need references to make a judgement, you shouldn't let that completely govern the judgement. I mean in your example, it is clear that Madrid didn't do that well against Bayern over the years but would I say that in a game that's gonna happen now between two teams resembling those two clubs when they met each other, is it absolutely necessary the same will repeat? Given every single detail is completely different?

 

[Moby]

You know what, nevermind. I have gotten too pedantic and mathematical.

 

[Balu]

Not sure what samplesize do you want? The difference of the alltime greats usually is dependent on 3 or 4 games in their career. Zidane isn't up there because of his consistency, but because he delivered a few times in the biggest games of all. Did Zidane control the match against Leverkusen in '02? feck no, he scored a beauty of a goal. Was that his trademark throughout his career? Certainly not.

Take Maradona's hand of god goal away, his incredible solo goal just 3 minutes after when half of the England team was still shocked about the injustice of that decision would have never happened, yet it defined his career and made him the greatest of all time. If the Netherlands in the final in '74 played their best football, they would have won, yet loosing the game defined that team and Cruyff in the comparison to the other greats. Football was always about small samplesizes, about delivering when it counts, not about outplaying most teams.

What I described actually adds another dimension, when we compare these fantasy teams full of top players at their peak, one that plays a crucial part in winning and loosing games in reality. I don't need stats to back that up, everyone who watched football in the 80's and 90's probably agrees with me against what type of football German teams struggled and against what type of football we excelled. It's really not a small samplesize at all .

You know what, nevermind. I have gotten too pedantic and mathematical.

. I thought that's one of the best football discussions I had in quite a while actually. That's what I wanted to talk about when I put my team together. feck winning or hypothetical winning, I don't care. Talking about why we could time and time again surprise teams despite being the underdogs on paper was the plan here from the start.

 

[Theon]

I think these drafts have developed a very strange tendency recently in which they really overdo the '3-5-2 doesn't work against one striker' idea. Very annoying, it's nowhere near as simple as that and some of the greatest teams have successfully dominated that way.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Take Maradona's hand of god goal away, his incredible solo goal just 3 minutes after when half of the England team was still shocked about the injustice of that decision would have never happened, yet it defined his career and made him the greatest of all time. If the Netherlands in the final in '74 played their best football, they would have won, yet loosing the game defined that team and Cruyff in the comparison to the other greats. Football was always about small samplesizes, about delivering when it counts, not about outplaying most teams

Very interesting take! Would Ghiggia be forgotten if not for 1950 WC? Why is Baggio still a GOAT despite his WC goofup? Maldini had a career spanning 3 decades.

It's different scales for different players. I'm not sure on small sample is the difference theory. I think the overall impact throughout their career is more important than a couple fancy games.

Difficult to type with phone in a pub after a couple of pints. Worth a debate, I'm sure.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

I think these drafts have developed a very strange tendency recently in which they really overdo the '3-5-2 doesn't work against one striker' idea. Very annoying, it's nowhere near as simple as that and some of the greatest teams have successfully dominated that way.

I'm a big proponent of that theory, but it's not a one rule fits all. It depends. If you have creative midfielders and great fullbacks no reason it should fail. I was just reading on Sammer my latest pick who had great success after his team switched to 3-5-2. But then your team is better off designed to counterattack. Playing 3-5-2 with Silva /Dunga is not optimal.

 

[Theon]

You're thinking of Cutch there chief

 

[Fergus' son]

I'm sure I voted for Balu in this one?!

 

[Balu]

I'm sure I voted for Balu in this one?!

I was surprised you voted against me without any comment . Saw your vote for Pol during the game, maybe you misclicked?

 

[Balu]

Very interesting take! Would Ghiggia be forgotten if not for 1950 WC? Why is Baggio still a GOAT despite his WC goofup? Maldini had a career spanning 3 decades.

It's different scales for different players. I'm not sure on small sample is the difference theory. I think the overall impact throughout their career is more important than a couple fancy games.

Difficult to type with phone in a pub after a couple of pints. Worth a debate, I'm sure.

There's a difference between being one of the greats or standing out between them, imo. Few games decide that.

 

[Fergus' son]

I was surprised you voted against me without any comment . Saw your vote for Pol during the game, maybe you misclicked?

Think I did! Wrote a comment as to why I voted for you too which also didn't make it!

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

I'm sure I voted for Balu in this one?!

that would've changed everything!

 

[Moby]

The drama in this game just doesn't end.

 

[Balu]

Probably would have just meant, that Aldo had started his jinxing 2 votes earlier and I would have lost anyway. I still blame Aldo, all his fault