Redcafe Sheep Draft - Balu vs Polaroid

Who will win based on all the players at their peak?


  • Total voters
    24
  • Poll closed .
But it wasn't Sammer who marked or kept tabs on Zizou, it was Lambert.

Anyway that wasn't Zizou's best game, should not be taking that as a benchmark.

Zizou at his best wouldn't be contained by Sammer in a 1v1, nevermind in a 2v2 with Sammer and Buchwald v Zizou and Eto'o.
 
Since Balu is not using spoilers for videos, I shall also dispense with them





Incredible player really
 
That would kill the width down the right side, Balu. Muller as you said would need to stay around the penalty area specially if he needs to be in goalscoring positions like you mentions, he cannot do that and provide width at the same time.

This is why 4-2-3-1 was really effective against 5-3-2 and probably what caused it's demise.
Why? In a 4-2-3-1 there's no 2nd striker in the box and teams score, why do I need two of them all the time when no one else does? And there's Effenberg making runs, Scholl and Kroos available around the box as well.

We actually see more and more 3 man defenses in possession in today's game, with the holding midfielder dropping between centerbacks. What killed the strict back fives was, that teams stopped playing 2 strikers, but that's not really a problem with Sammer in the libero role, because he fecking loves to get involved in the midfield battle and isn't uncomfortable stepping forward.
 
I'm convinced with that argument.

What we have done uptill now is more or less established that your team is stronger on the wings, and will create lots of chances down the left and right.

@Balu needs to tell us how his teams will work on the counter to to exploit that centrally. Effenberg, Scholl and Klinsmann haven't even got the ball, yet.
And I won't create anything down the wing? Because Alaba and Hummels aren't a weak link but Reuter + Kohler are?
 
Like I said, formations are fluid and the team will look like a 433 at times, but a 433 with a holding midfielder often still is close to a back 3 with the holding midfielder dropping between the centerbacks and the fullbacks pushing forward. Those formations are never strict. A 532 turns into different formations depending on where the ball is all the time and against your team it will often look like a 433 in possession but the idea behind it is and will always be a 532 here. I wrote a lot about how I plan to attack down the wings, that one short phrase doesn't change that at all.

The fundamental question is, who's on Zidane then? Not Sammer if he is sweeping behind the CBs.
 
Why? In a 4-2-3-1 there's no 2nd striker in the box and teams score, why do I need two of them all the time when no one else does? And there's Effenberg making runs, Scholl and Kroos available around the box as well.

We actually see more and more 3 man defenses in possession in today's game, with the holding midfielder dropping between centerbacks. What killed the strict back fives was, that teams stopped playing 2 strikers, but that's not really a problem with Sammer in the libero role, because he fecking loves to get involved in the midfield battle and isn't uncomfortable stepping forward.
It's you only who wrote Muller would get into goalscoring positions in the game trying to take advantage of Klinsi taking out the CBs, so that only means that he's not out wide proving width.

And that is logical as well, with his intelligence of the game he would be so lethal around the box not hugging the touchline, so effectively there's no width on your right side. And the one that is there on the left is at the risk of leaving Laudrup to be covered by a CB/Effenberg (who is naturally going to bomb forward in a counter).

Seems to be a tight spot for you, tbh.
 
And I won't create anything down the wing? Because Alaba and Hummels aren't a weak link but Reuter + Kohler are?

I guess the difference there is you don't have a winger.

It's Alaba + Bale getting at Reuter.
 
It's you only who wrote Muller would get into goalscoring positions in the game trying to take advantage of Klinsi taking out the CBs, so that only means that he's not out wide proving width.

And that is logical as well, with his intelligence of the game he would be so lethal around the box not hugging the touchline, so effectively there's no width on your right side. And the one that is there on the left is at the risk of leaving Laudrup to be covered by a CB/Effenberg (who is naturally going to bomb forward in a counter).

Seems to be a tight spot for you, tbh.
I guess the difference there is you don't have a winger.

It's Alaba + Bale getting at Reuter.
:lol:

Seriously guys. One says, Müller is always out wide, so I don't have him scoring goals, the other says, he's not out wide, so I'm not a threat on the wing? Have you watched him play? If I attack down the left or through the middle, he will move into central positions. If I attack down the right, he will connect on the right with Reuter or try to run behind Alaba. He's doing exactly that all his career.
 
Since Balu is not using spoilers for videos, I shall also dispense with them
I forgot about that for the first page, I added a spoiler for the video. But I don't mind if we don't use them from here on now. Did we have a rule for that?
 
:lol:

Seriously guys. One says, Müller is always out wide, so I don't have him scoring goals, the other says, he's not out wide, so I'm not a threat on the wing? Have you watched him play? If I attack down the left or through the middle, he will move into central positions. If I attack down the right, he will connect on the right with Reuter or try to run behind Alaba. He's doing exactly that all his career.
And both situations pose problems for you in other parts of the pitch, no?
 
Of course not. Bale moving inside and Alaba overlapping means the marker changes like it does in every game, when do you see a fullback running across the whole pitch against an inverse winger? Müller and Scholl have already dropped into midfield, Buchwald is comfortable stepping out as well with Kohler sticking to Eto'o? It's not like you all of a sudden outnumber me, just because Bale runs into the center.

That was how United conceded against Pedro and Villa. We failed to track Barca's wide forwards making diagonal runs behind/coming into the centre
With Eto'o, Zidane and Redondo there as well, it is entirely plausible there will be openings my team can capitalise on

Depending on the situation. It's a back 3 with a libero/DM player in the middle who reacts to what's happening on the pitch, like it's played a thousand times before. And it's not anyone, it's a Ballon d'Or winning one who actually excelled in exactly that role against Zidane in a CL final.

Nevertheless, he can only be in one place at any one time, you can surround Zidane with defenders and yet not keep him quiet. Leave one pocket of space to Zidane and he can punish you in the blink of an eye
 
And both situations pose problems for you in other parts of the pitch, no?
Why? I really don't understand that? He needs to commit his players in defense as well? It's not like his attacking players can wait upfront and the ball magically appears in their foot when all my players are upfront.

I really don't get the questions here. If I change to regular 433, is it any different then? Is Alaba + Bale then completely destroying Müller + Reuter with Kohler as the covering centerback and Sammer as the defensive midfielder? It makes no sense at all, really. I don't get, I'm completely lost. Alaba making a run forward seems to completely destroy my team while Hummels + Petit covering that side is a rocksolid defense? Reuter playing cautios doesn't help, but Alaba playing crazy attacking isn't a risk?
 
I forgot about that for the first page, I added a spoiler for the video. But I don't mind if we don't use them from here on now. Did we have a rule for that?

No official rule for that.
I use spoilers for the first page out of consideration for the mobile users
 
I forgot about that for the first page, I added a spoiler for the video. But I don't mind if we don't use them from here on now. Did we have a rule for that?

In the last draft. My bad, I didn't follow it either I think (although it was strictly first page so fine from here on).
 
Anyway I think I know what I needed to know. It is probably clear already but I see Pol having the advantage in this tactical battle.

What hasn't been spoken much of yet - and is much bigger issue IMO than this whole width and all - is conceding possession against Zidane and Redondo, who can literally take the piss out of any midfield with their passing and link up, and create numerous chances. With players with end product waiting ahead of them that's one deadly combination, probably the best in this draft in terms of CM-AM when on the ball. Zidane also enjoyed playing with Roberto Carlos and using his surprise overlaps to unlock defenses (Fenomeno's second goal in that OT hat trick a perfect example of how a packed defense was cut open by two players - Zidane and Carlos), and Alaba can provide that.

I'm not a huge fan of Bale but the way he has transformed himself into a matchwinner is commendable. I've watched that transformation live when he visited Gerland, spent the first half doing nothing on the flank, then came inside and after that virtually every touch he took looked a danger. He's been great at Madrid as well.

I think Balu should have kept Frings for a situation like this. Effenberg isn't a DM, and keeping him to mark one man isn't using him well, so in this case you needed a very simple "give him one job, never leave Zidane" job, which Frings would have done, without making Sammer having to make decisions every second on who to mark.

The way I see it, it would be really hard to break down Balu, given the class in his back 5 and the tough mentality, but over the course of the game I expect Zidane and Redondo to conjure up a chance or two catching his defense not ready to cover all bases and you don't get better composure in front of goal than Eto'o's.

Bit sad really as I really like both these teams, but I think this is one of the worst teams Balu could have hoped for, tactically.
 
Why? I really don't understand that? He needs to commit his players in defense as well? It's not like his attacking players can wait upfront and the ball magically appears in their foot when all my players are upfront.

I really don't get the questions here. If I change to regular 433, is it any different then? Is Alaba + Bale then completely destroying Müller + Reuter with Kohler as the covering centerback and Sammer as the defensive midfielder? It makes no sense at all, really. I don't get, I'm completely lost. Alaba making a run forward seems to completely destroy my team while Hummels + Petit covering that side is a rocksolid defense? Reuter playing cautios doesn't help, but Alaba playing crazy attacking isn't a risk?

I've lost track of much of the argument at this point. You are right people don't doggedly follow a man to the end of the earth unless instructed to. I'm still concerned though about the whole Sammer thing (which is effectively what was behind the 4-3-3 statement Pol made, which I also assumed was correct). So you don't have a man on Zidane specifically? He's left to joint team effort subject to where he goes? It's plausible, but very ballsy if you ask me.
 
Why? I really don't understand that? He needs to commit his players in defense as well? It's not like his attacking players can wait upfront and the ball magically appears in their foot when all my players are upfront.

I really don't get the questions here. If I change to regular 433, is it any different then? Is Alaba + Bale then completely destroying Müller + Reuter with Kohler as the covering centerback and Sammer as the defensive midfielder? It makes no sense at all, really. I don't get, I'm completely lost. Alaba making a run forward seems to completely destroy my team while Hummels + Petit covering that side is a rocksolid defense? Reuter playing cautios doesn't help, but Alaba playing crazy attacking isn't a risk?

Not really and that is not because of the formation, if you want to implement that you would need to make a case for dominating possession and having most of the ball in the game which I don't see happening against his midfield. Playing on the counter, this setup is better but unless you concede width almost completely you will be exposed quite a lot, and without which you would not be able to counter as well as you want to.

As I said, A proper DM instead of Kroos would have made things better.
 
I've lost track of much of the argument at this point. You are right people don't doggedly follow a man to the end of the earth unless instructed to. I'm still concerned though about the whole Sammer thing (which is effectively what was behind the 4-3-3 statement Pol made, which I also assumed was correct). So you don't have a man on Zidane specifically? He's left to joint team effort subject to where he goes? It's plausible, but very ballsy if you ask me.
The whole 532 or 433 part was a bit confusing by me, I agree with that. However, it's not like Sammer does need to make decisions all the time. He has Kohler and Buchwald in defense behind him, those are hardly mugs who can't deal with a lone striker, even if it's Eto'o. Sammer is free to help out whereever he needs to be and I clearly stated that he will mainly help to contain Zidane. That's not necessarily a man marking job that sees him dragged all over the pitch, but he's there, no doubt.
 
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I distrust Assistant Managers in this now, in the next one I am flying solo, I got hung out to dry by KM.

Hey that's unfair. I told you I'm working fifteen hour shifts here :(
 
Not really and that is not because of the formation, if you want to implement that you would need to make a case for dominating possession and having most of the ball in the game which I don't see happening against his midfield. Playing on the counter, this setup is better but unless you concede width almost completely you will be exposed quite a lot, and without which you would not be able to counter as well as you want to.

As I said, A proper DM instead of Kroos would have made things better.
I disagree, especially against his team. It's also weird, that you say I'm easily conceding possession. My midfield is full of players who are strong on the ball and it's not that easy to win the ball back with Sammer, Effenberg, Kroos and Scholl there. I don't mind him having a bit more of the ball, but I don't feel significantly dominated here at all, that's clearly over the top. If it was a 100% counterattacking setup, yes, then I needed Frings more than Kroos, but then I would look rather toothless in possession. Here I can see me causing him all sorts of problems in possession. It sounds like I'm outnumbered in the middle and can't create shit through the wings despite him not having two strong defensive fullbacks at all, Alaba certainly isn't one. That makes no sense, not the slightest.
 
:lol:

Seriously guys. One says, Müller is always out wide, so I don't have him scoring goals, the other says, he's not out wide, so I'm not a threat on the wing? Have you watched him play? If I attack down the left or through the middle, he will move into central positions. If I attack down the right, he will connect on the right with Reuter or try to run behind Alaba. He's doing exactly that all his career.

Not sure really, it sounds to me like both posts were saying you lacked that consistent threat on the flanks - not at all surprising because you don't have wingers and he does. You have the tougher defence though of course with the extra man.

I don't see your fullbacks making up that deficit in terms of numbers - Bale + Alaba is a great offensive flank and I can see Reuter being pretty occupied there.
 
I've lost track of much of the argument at this point. You are right people don't doggedly follow a man to the end of the earth unless instructed to. I'm still concerned though about the whole Sammer thing (which is effectively what was behind the 4-3-3 statement Pol made, which I also assumed was correct). So you don't have a man on Zidane specifically? He's left to joint team effort subject to where he goes? It's plausible, but very ballsy if you ask me.

The fundamental question is, who's on Zidane then? Not Sammer if he is sweeping behind the CBs.

Million dollar question that
 
I disagree, especially against his team. It's also weird, that you say I'm easily conceding possession. My midfield is full of players who are strong on the ball and it's not that easy to win the ball back with Sammer, Effenberg, Kroos and Scholl there. I don't mind him having a bit more of the ball, but I don't feel significantly dominated here at all, that's clearly over the top. If it was a 100% counterattacking setup, yes, then I needed Frings more than Kroos, but then I would look rather toothless in possession. Here I can see me causing him all sorts of problems in possession. It sounds like I'm outnumbered in the middle and can't create shit through the wings despite him not having strong defensive fullbacks at all. That makes no sense, not the slightest.
Well we would need to disagree there. All your players are good on the ball - and it would sound terribly cliched but I need to give credit where it's due - Zizou and Redondo would dominate the strongest of midfields in possession, and I don't doubt that for a second. Again, that sounds terribly boring because it looks like I am looking at big names but more than the names it is the specific ability of both of them to control the game like very, very few others. Redondo all by himself absolutely schooled Keane and Scholes - a treble winning midfield duo - in that 2000 CL game. I won't pretend I'm not getting a bit romantic here but it's easy to do so with a player like Redondo and that is what makes him so great, that he not only has the ability to shield the defense brilliantly but also the ability to dictate everything that goes on in the game.

If it wasn't for Passarella and his retarded strict rules that he would have probably been a World Cup hero as well, and deserved at least one shot to avenge the horrible outing against Romania in 94. Argentina and the bullshit manager is a sad story. From that nonsense by Passarella to Pekerman's genius idea of subbing Riquelme against you guys to the greatest of them all, Maradona not even taking Cambiasso and Pupi! :mad:

Anyway, I do think deciding the share of possession in this game is sort of out of your hands. You can harry those two all you want, but there's a reason why Sir Alex was fascinated by "El Principe" and was forced to wonder if he had magnet in his boots...
 
Forgiven, we'll pick ourselves up turn our attentions to the next one, we were unlucky.

No way did we deserved to lose by such a big margin. Most of the footie fans are too pretentious these days.
 
Million dollar question that
I answered that:
The whole 532 or 433 part was a bit confusing by me, I agree with that. However, it's not like Sammer does need to make decisions all the time. He has Kohler and Buchwald in defense behind him, those are hardly mugs who can't deal with a lone striker, even if it's Eto'o. Sammer is free to help out whereever he needs to be and I clearly stated that he will mainly help to contain Zidane. That's not necessarily a man marking job that sees him dragged all over the pitch, but he's there, no doubt.
 
It seems like a lot of key players for Balu are being underrated here (Reuter & Ziege, Buchwald, and we've heard nothing about Scholl or Klinsmann) while having more familiar faces is working a treat for Pol.

In my mind one team is clearly better, but the other has Zidane and Redondo. Which is why I find it odd Sammer is focused on a covering job rather than on minimising Zidane's impact. Redondo's you can leave to the joint hard work of the midfield, but not Zidane's.
 
I answered that:

Thanks Balu, so it is Kohler and Buchwald behind Sammer and Sammer is mainly on Zidane
In that case if either one of my wingers beat your fullbacks say Laudrup vs Ziege, it will leave Eto'o one on one in the centre and Zidane advancing with Sammer backpedalling
 
Thanks Balu, so it is Kohler and Buchwald behind Sammer and Sammer is mainly on Zidane
In that case if either one of my wingers beat your fullbacks say Laudrup vs Ziege, it will leave Eto'o one on one in the centre and Zidane advancing with Sammer backpedalling
Well, yeah, I've said that from the start. If I'm loosing the game because Ziege with Buchwald helping out and Kohler covering Eto'o isn't good enough to defend, then so be it. That's hardly a weak defensive setup for me. It's also not Sammer alone on Zidane with all my other players watching you score. Again, that's not how football works.
 
I am also curious if people here rate Brian Laudrup. Euro 92 was memorable for that Danish fairy tale. Last minute replacements... who would have thought they would win it, especially without Michael