Redcafe Sheep Draft - Balu vs Polaroid

[Moby]

The aim of this poll is to decide the winner in this fantasy game contested between two sides assembled through the method of drafting. For the purpose of this game, all players would be considered as being at their respective peaks. I invite all posters to go through the formations, tactics and arguments that will follow in the thread and kindly leave their vote. Thanks.

Balu's tactics

About my team
​

During the 80's and 90's the common formation for German club sides and the nationalteam was a 532. It was played in different variations depending on the players available at the time, but it lead to incredible success for many teams. My team unites key players of those successful clubs side on the pitch, who also found themselves together in the German nationalteam, playing a huge part in the worldcup win in '90 and the Euro win in '96. I have countless proven connections that were crucial to compete on the highest level and I try to show how wonderful versatile that system can be and how it can counter all the other tactics out there.

The most important points to play it successfully:

• Versatile players in defense, who are comfortable covering out wide or stepping into midfield.

Matthias Sammer excelled in that libero position, he will be where he's needed. If the team is up against a lone striker, he joins the midfield battle and has more freedom going forward. Next to him is a perfectly complementary stopper/libero pair of the highest quality in Buchwald and Kohler. That's as great a 3 man defense as you can hope for and they all played together at one point during their career.​

• Workrate in midfield and attack, there's no freedom for anyone here.

You work, you run, you help each other, no questions asked. Müller and Scholl will have an eye on the opposing fullbacks and track them back or drop into midfield, so that the CMs can help out wide. Klinsmann is a one man army upfront in defense, he constantly harassed opposing centerbacks throughout the game and often dropped even deeper to help win back the ball in midfield.​

• Attacking players who drift wide, often overlooked but so crucial.

You need players from midfield to connect with your wingbacks to make sure, they get involved. Scholl and Müller both played central and out wide on both sides in their career. Christian Ziege made countless runs behind the defense to get on the end of Scholl's passes. Stefan Reuter is more cautios, more the playmaker from a deeper position, that's why the wingback pair complements each other so brilliantly. Müller as the 2nd forward making the runs behind the fullback on Reuter's side, while Scholl as the playmaker playing Ziege through, that's the setup out wide and it'll be a danger all game long.​

• A complementary strike partnership upfront

I have no prove for it, but in my opinion Thomas Müller and Jürgen Klinsmann are a match made in heaven. Klinsmann loves to drag oppositions around, fighting it out with 2 centerbacks on his own, while no one is smarter than Thomas Müller in finding those gaps, loosing his marker and getting on the end of a through ball or a cross. He scores goals against anyone, a big game player if I ever saw one.​

• A real threat on the counter

It's a deep setup in defense, so having quick players making smart runs is crucial. Effenberg and Kroos both have a brilliant passing range from deep. Ziege, Scholl and Müller are quick on the counter and Klinsmann's hold up play upfront is perfect for this as well. There's a constant counterattacking threat not only through the middle, but also through the wings.

​

About this game:​

• The midfield battle: Sammer will play a huge part here with only one striker in my opponent's team, he will help to contain Zidane's influence on the game.
• The threat from the wings: Bale will be closely followed, but if he finds space, there's no goalkeeper in the history of the game I would trust more to deny him a goal with one of his long range screamers than Oliver Kahn. He's the Titan, he will keep a clean sheet here. Brian Laudrup might dribble his way past the fullback a few times, but there's always a brilliant centerback waiting to pick him up.
  
• In possession: My team will try to attack on the counter, but is equally comfortable in possession with Kroos moving into the AM position and creating a 433 (Sammer, Effenberg and Kroos in midfield with Scholl and Müller out wide).

A few final words, I hope to find the time to tell a few stories about the lesser known players in my team and a few of the forgotten German club sides of the 80's and 90's. Especially Buchwald and Scholl are often underrated and I'd love to talk about them during the game, so give me a chance to convince you before you vote . Here's also a link to my Player Profiles.

Team Balu

Team Polaroid

​

Polaroid's tactics

Click here for brief player writeup & videos

My team lines up in a modern 4-2-3-1 formation. Neuer in goal, Hummels as stopper, Rio as covering defender completes the central defensive trio. Alaba as attacking left-back combines with Bale for a potent & rapid one-two punch. Gallas and B. Laudrup line up on the opposite flank. Although Laudrup puts in as much if not more defensive work than the typical winger, the defensive solidity of Gallas gives Laudrup the luxury of complete freedom to express his imagination and fantasy. Zidane-Redondo-Petit is a dream midfield trio oozing with pure class, complementing each other for the perfect balance of creativity and industry, flair and control. Eto'o the goalscorer extraordinaire, completes the XI. Although Eto'o was incredibly adept at making his own chances, he does not have to do so in this team with the quality service from Zidane-Laudrup-Bale-Redondo-Petit-Alaba providing gilt-edged goalscoring opportunities by the truckloads. Such a ruthless deadly predator will feast to his heart's galore.

 

[Polaroid]

Wow I feel like the lazy student here

 

[Balu]

And I feel like a bully . At least I didn't make endless tactic picture comic strips like last time .

 

[Ish]

Outdone on the tactics board

 

[Polaroid]

As Aldo rightly pointed out, squads are not everything. Managerial skill and effort counts as much. Balu is outstanding in that aspect.

 

[sajeev]

@Polaroid need more details from you. right now Balu is winning my vote

 

[Balu]

I don't really care that much about the opponent, it's more about telling a story about my team. That's why I went with a theme again, it's much more fun this way and it makes those write-ups pretty easy. Anyway, have a meeting now, I'm back in about an hour.

 

[Gandalf Greyhame]

@Polaroid - thanks to Balu's in-depth explanation of his team's dynamics, and your lack of it, I can see Balu's team moving in my head if I try hard enough. Whereas when it comes to your bunch, I can only see names on the sheet. You put out the better players, perhaps, but they're disjointed in my head right now. Balu's team will work better as a unit at the start, execute their game plan and grab an early goal. After that, it's all in their hands, as they're set up to counter, and have the players who can do it. So I think you'll lose.

To turn your vote share around, you have to convince me of how you plan to outmatch Balu's defence to get your goals, and get Zidane to crawl out out of their central back 5.

 

[Cutch]

Theres a few things annoying me about Pols side. Not sure if his pairings in centre defence and centre mid have the right blend. Both are very similar to eachother. Redondo should really be on the left but then Petit is a leftie also. Hummels and Ferdinand are probably both the type that excel with a hard ass alongside them. Then we have the out of position Gallas and Brian Laudrup combo on the right that i'm not convinced will link up all that well.

Theres a few current players in there that are a bit difficult to rate as i'm not sure about their all time standing in the game just yet.

Balu's side is harder to fault, and he's done very well to stick to his theme throughout.

 

[antohan]

You could do worse than having Sammer minding Zidane, but then Pol's creation doesn't stop at Zidane. That Redondo pick was a godsend for Pol. Petit was handy, but Redondo is a tier higher than any of the other midfielders on the pitch (and they all are/were excellent players in their own right).

Tight game. Will wait it out on the sidelines hoping to hear more from both managers.

 

[Polaroid]

My thoughts

Since defensively Balu is putting Sammer on Zidane and offensively Sammer is also advancing into midfield, Balu is effectively lining up as 4-3-3 in both defensive and offensive phases

He also has Muller and Scholl tracking the fullbacks

That makes the match-ups pretty straightforward

1. The midfield battle
Zidane-Redondo-Petit vs Sammer-Effenberg-Kroos
Two fabulous midfields going toe to toe
Individual quality aside, I like to think that as a unit, I have slightly better balance there with each player coming together to fit perfectly into an all-rounded unit with complementary functions

2. The wings
Bale vs Reuter, Alaba vs Muller on one flank, Laudrup vs Ziege, Gallas vs Scholl on the other
They will be closely fought battles, the one that is most likely to tilt the battle in my opinion is Laudrup vs Ziege

3. Individual match-winning brilliance
In games as tight as this, where two teams are solidly assembled without obvious flaws, sometimes it is individual match-winning brilliance that decides the game. In this aspect, I favour Eto'o, Zidane, Laudrup, Bale and Redondo

So where is my most likely route to goal?
It could be Laudrup beating Ziege and drawing out Buchwald. That opens up the space for Eto'o who is so quick and sharp. At the same time, Bale attacks the box at pace and Zidane will also be putting Sammer on the backfoot. Not to forget Redondo and Alaba.

Or some inspirational flash of brilliance from Zidane, Eto'o, Redondo, Laudrup or Bale. That is something managers, tactics, analysis machines and statistics can never really account for. Like what Best did to Benfica on their home turf, throwing Sir Matt's instructions out of the window or Nilton Santos at WC 58.

Spoiler

[spoiler/]

 

[antohan]

Then we have the out of position Gallas

Eh? Weren't you the one moaning about him being underrated when you played him, err, at RB?

I agree Balu's side is more coherent while Pol's works but seems more reliant on individual moments of brilliance. It's a tough call there because that's precisely the sort of thing that could get a coherent and efficient German side undone!

 

[antohan]

I hadn't actually read that from Pol but yeah, we seem to agree individual brilliance is a big factor for him.

 

[Gandalf Greyhame]

My thoughts

2. The wings
Bale vs Reuter, Alaba vs Muller on one flank, Laudrup vs Ziege, Gallas vs Scholl on the other
They will be closely fought battles, the one that is most likely to tilt the battle in my opinion is Laudrup vs Ziege

3. Individual match-winning brilliance
In games as tight as this, where two teams are solidly assembled without obvious flaws, sometimes it is individual match-winning brilliance that decides the game. In this aspect, I favour Eto'o, Zidane, Laudrup, Bale and Redondo

I agree Balu's side is more coherent while Pol's works but seems more reliant on individual moments of brilliance. It's a tough call there because that's precisely the sort of thing that could get a coherent and efficient German side undone!

That, for me, has tipped things back into balance. Muller has too many tasks on hand, and there will be plenty of moments when Alaba gets past him. After that it's up to Bale-Petit to get the ball to Zidane/Eto, and I see individual brilliance making it through.

@Balu - you have to convince me that your overloaded right flank can bear the pace, power and precision that Polaroid has on his left.

 

[Balu]

Eh? Weren't you the one moaning about him being underrated when you played him, err, at RB?

I agree Balu's side is more coherent while Pol's works but seems more reliant on individual moments of brilliance. It's a tough call there because that's precisely the sort of thing that could get a coherent and efficient German side undone!

I'd say that tactical brilliance usually is what German teams struggled with the most. We did fine against a lot of those individual brilliance teams. Hell, Bayern beat that Galactico Real team time and time again, that's probably more than enough proof. We struggled against cohesive Italian defending with quick counterattacks, because you can't beat that with hard work. Individual brilliance is something, that you can beat, stick with the man, annoy them throughout the game, often enough that worked in important games and discipline is key against those players, I have that a lot.

 

[Cutch]

Eh? Weren't you the one moaning about him being underrated when you played him, err, at RB?

I was complaining about him being underrated defensively, as the thinking was he'd be tore a new one which was very unlikely. Plus he had the rest of the Chelsea back 4 alongside him in that particular game which I thought should count for something.

He's no weaklink for sure, but still not ideal playing him at RB.

 

[antohan]

I'd say that tactical brilliance usually is what German teams struggled with the most.

You mean like Giggs at right wing and Beckham in central midfield?

 

[Balu]

That, for me, has tipped things back into balance. Muller has too many tasks on hand, and there will be plenty of moments when Alaba gets past him. After that it's up to Bale-Petit to get the ball to Zidane/Eto, and I see individual brilliance making it through.

@Balu - you have to convince me that your overloaded right flank can bear the pace, power and precision that Polaroid has on his left.

Reuter surely won't struggle against pace? Can't think of a better fullback to cover Bale's pace, especially when he's playing a more cautios role here in this game.

He was known for his speed on the field (100 m in 11.2 s), a quality that resulted in his nickname "Turbo".[2]

From his wiki page.

I'm not sure what you mean with Müller having too many tasks on hand? There are still CMs in my team, who can cover the wing as well and Kohler covered out wide in a back 3 all his life. With only one striker in the box, Buchwald can stay with Eto'o (he's perfectly suited to cover against his movement and pace). That Sammer, Kohler, Reuter connection is proven for Germany and for Dortmund on the highest level. Individual quality and perfect understanding with years of experience together and hardworking attacking players to help out as well.

 

[Polaroid]

This reminds me
We were relatively poor as a team on that night but with match-winners like Ole...

Spoiler

[spoiler/]

 

[Balu]

You mean like Giggs at right wing and Beckham in central midfield?

I blame it on Matthäus, always have. Idiot. I won't sub off Sammer in the 90th minute and leave a disorganised defense behind, definitely not.

 

[Polaroid]

You mean like Giggs at right wing and Beckham in central midfield?

I was just thinking about that game!! see my post above

 

[Balu]

My thoughts

Since defensively Balu is putting Sammer on Zidane and offensively Sammer is also advancing into midfield, Balu is effectively lining up as 4-3-3 in both defensive and offensive phases

Formations are always fluid and my team will look like a 433 at times, but it's not effectively one. Sammer won't advance much in offensive phases, I never wrote anything like that. It's a beautiful 3 man defense with wingbacks and key is to get the wingbacks involved and let them connect with the attacking players.

 

[antohan]

I was just thinking about that game!! see my post above

Balu had a good point but I just couldn't resist the ribbing

 

[Polaroid]

Reuter surely won't struggle against pace? Can't think of a better fullback to cover Bale's pace, especially when he's playing a more cautios role here in this game.


From his wiki page.

I'm not sure what you mean with Müller having too many tasks on hand? There are still CMs in my team, who can cover the wing as well and Kohler covered out wide in a back 3 all his life. With only one striker in the box, Buchwald can stay with Eto'o (he's perfectly suited to cover against his movement and pace). That Sammer, Kohler, Reuter connection is proven for Germany and for Dortmund on the highest level. Individual quality and perfect understanding with years of experience together and hardworking attacking players to help out as well.

The bigger issue for Reuter would be tracking Bale as he goes across the frontline attacking the channels and the box
If Kohler covers out wide, leaving Eto'o vs Buchwald and Zidane vs Sammer, that could be a potential opening for my team

 

[crappycraperson]

I agree with anto that Pol's Redondo pick could turn out to be huge here. Without him in Pol's MF I think I would have definitely voted for Balu. With him, I am leaning towards Pol even though I don't like that he is playing Gallas at RB.

 

[Polaroid]

Formations are always fluid and my team will look like a 433 at times, but it's not effectively one. Sammer won't advance much in offensive phases, I never wrote anything like that. It's a beautiful 3 man defense with wingbacks and key is to get the wingbacks involved and let them connect with the attacking players.

The midfield battle: Sammer will play a huge part here with only one striker in my opponent's team, he will help to contain Zidane's influence on the game.

In possession: My team will try to attack on the counter, but is equally comfortable in possession with Kroos moving into the AM position and creating a 433 (Sammer, Effenberg and Kroos in midfield with Scholl and Müller out wide).

Looks to me Sammer is in midfield

 

[Balu]

Looks to me Sammer is in midfield

Like I said, formations are fluid and the team will look like a 433 at times, but a 433 with a holding midfielder often still is close to a back 3 with the holding midfielder dropping between the centerbacks and the fullbacks pushing forward. Those formations are never strict. A 532 turns into different formations depending on where the ball is all the time and against your team it will often look like a 433 in possession but the idea behind it is and will always be a 532 here. I wrote a lot about how I plan to attack down the wings, that one short phrase doesn't change that at all.

 

[Balu]

The bigger issue for Reuter would be tracking Bale as he goes across the frontline attacking the channels and the box
If Kohler covers out wide, leaving Eto'o vs Buchwald and Zidane vs Sammer, that could be a potential opening for my team

There are midfielders as well? Seriously, that's not how football works, it's fluid, markers change all the time. I have a proven connection there in the back. Sammer, Kohler, Reuter were individually worldclass players and key players in the sucess of Dortmund and Germany. I love Alaba to bits and admit Bale looks quality at the moment, but I own that side. Those players are on different level and don't have a hypothetical understanding, they excelled together and won the most important trophies in world football. I would be much more worried about Müller running in behind Alaba, when he's constantly pushing forward. That's much more dangerous against Hummels there, who's clearly the weakest defender on the pitch.

 

[Moby]

@Balu can you elaborate exactly what the wingbacks are doing? How much are they contributing in both phases? Are they being conservative having two dangerous wide players to handle or are they going up the pitch and attacking leaving the wide players to be dealt by the CBs?

 

[Polaroid]

Like I said, formations are fluid and the team will look like a 433 at times, but a 433 with a holding midfielder often still is close to a back 3 with the holding midfielder dropping between the centerbacks and the fullbacks pushing forward. Those formations are never strict. A 532 turns into different formations depending on where the ball is all the time and against your team it will often look like a 433 in possession but the idea behind it is and will always be a 532 here. I wrote a lot about how I plan to attack down the wings, that one short phrase doesn't change that at all.

Is Sammer dropping between the centrebacks or is he on Zidane?

 

[Annahnomoss]

I am Balus assistant manager, just so that is clear.

Sammer-Kohler-Reuter played in this exact formation in 1997 and were up against Giggs in his prime who was partnered with Irwin. Over two legs Dortmund kept clean-sheets against Giggs-Irwin as well as the entire United team consisting of the likes of Cantona/Scholes/Beckham.


Dortmund 3-1 Juventus 1997 Champions League final.

 

[Balu]

I didn't want to turn this into a big tactical battle, how did that happen .

@Balu can you elaborate exactly what the wingbacks are doing? How much are they contributing in both phases? Are they being conservative having two dangerous wide players to handle or are they going up the pitch and attacking leaving the wide players to be dealt by the CBs?

Reuter is playing a more conservative role, because of Bale's pace. Like I wrote in the op:
My right side has Reuter staying deeper and Müller moving between the lines more to the right, running in between Alaba and Hummels, who are both far from perfect positionally.
My left side has Scholl sending Ziege on runs, something both did countless times during their time at Bayern. Ziege is playing a more advanced role than Reuter, but he has more cover with Effenberg there and Scholl deeper to help out on the wing. It's hard to find footage for most of my players, but surprisingly there's a compilation for Christian Ziege. It's far from perfect, but it shows how quick he was and how he made those runs behind the defense and scored quite a lot for a wingback. You'll see Scholl in there a few times as well .

Spoiler

Seriously, is no one worried about how Pol is defending against my team? His back 4 looks way way more vulnerable and he is hardly up against mugs here.

 

[Polaroid]

There are midfielders as well? Seriously, that's not how football works, it's fluid, markers change all the time. I have a proven connection there in the back. Sammer, Kohler, Reuter were individually worldclass players and key players in the sucess of Dortmund and Germany. I love Alaba to bits and admit Bale looks quality at the moment, but I own that side. Those players are on different level and don't have a hypothetical understanding, they excelled together and won the most important trophies in world football. I would be much more worried about Müller running in behind Alaba, when he's constantly pushing forward. That's much more dangerous against Hummels there, who's clearly the weakest defender on the pitch.

So you would not have Reuter track Bale?
Yes there are midfielders, not just yours but mine too. If your midfielder has to help out against Bale, that leaves you short against Zidane-Redondo-Petit
Laudrup is more likely to expose Ziege than Muller vs Alaba. Targeting Ziege is my most obvious route to goal really.
Reuter is world class and Hummels is clearly the weakest? We have to disagree and leave the voters to decide

 

[Theon]

The biggest danger on the pitch is clearly Zidane who really is a level above, but I'm not sure a 3-5-2 would be the best way to combat him. I think I would prefer a dedicated DM to try and limit his influence.

 

[Polaroid]

I am Balus assistant manager, just so that is clear.

Sammer-Kohler-Reuter played in this exact formation in 1997 and were up against Giggs in his prime who was partnered with Irwin. Over two legs Dortmund kept clean-sheets against Giggs-Irwin as well as the entire United team consisting of the likes of Cantona/Scholes/Beckham.

Did you watch the game at OT? we should have scored at least 5 in that game alone!! I couldn't believe it...

So Sammer covering the CBs in a back 3 or Sammer on Zidane?

 

[Gandalf Greyhame]

Reuter surely won't struggle against pace? Can't think of a better fullback to cover Bale's pace, especially when he's playing a more cautios role here in this game.

My point was that Alaba would beat Muller with his pace. Reuter might be fast, but pace cannot help you in a two-on-one situation. And I'd also like like this one answered:

Is Sammer dropping between the centrebacks or is he on Zidane?

because that determines where Kohler would be positioned generally.

With only one striker in the box, Buchwald can stay with Eto'o (he's perfectly suited to cover against his movement and pace). That Sammer, Kohler, Reuter connection is proven for Germany and for Dortmund on the highest level.

So Buchanan is on Eto'o, Sammer is on Zidane. Easy on paper, but you cannot contain either with just one man marking them each. They're too good to be so easily contained. Same goes for Bale. So it essentially becomes a Bale-Alaba-Petit vs Reuter-Kohler(?) situation. Kroos might help out, but he's not as adept defensively as he is on the attack. And this situation will repeat multiple times throughout the game, since Polaroid's teams will be having majority of the possession. You may get away once, you may get away twice, but individual brilliance will finally win it for Polaroid.

 

[Moby]

That would kill the width down the right side, Balu. Muller as you said would need to stay around the penalty area specially if he needs to be in goalscoring positions like you mentions, he cannot do that and provide width at the same time.

This is why 4-2-3-1 was really effective against 5-3-2 and probably what caused it's demise.

 

[Polaroid]

Ziege is good offensively but he would be exposed defensively against Laudrup whom even Maldini had problems coping with
Pushing Ziege up with Redondo on that side supplying Laudrup, Eto'o in the box to finish and Zidane as well

 

[Balu]

Holy mother of god. I have a bunch of hard working Germans here with incredible workrate and all of a sudden I'm outnumbered anywhere on the pitch, just because Alaba goes on a run? I'm completely lost here.

So you would not have Reuter track Bale?

Of course not. Bale moving inside and Alaba overlapping means the marker changes like it does in every game, when do you see a fullback running across the whole pitch against an inverse winger? Müller and Scholl have already dropped into midfield, Buchwald is comfortable stepping out as well with Kohler sticking to Eto'o? It's not like you all of a sudden outnumber me, just because Bale runs into the center.

Is Sammer dropping between the centrebacks or is he on Zidane?

Depending on the situation. It's a back 3 with a libero/DM player in the middle who reacts to what's happening on the pitch, like it's played a thousand times before. And it's not anyone, it's a Ballon d'Or winning one who actually excelled in exactly that role against Zidane in a CL final.

 

[Gandalf Greyhame]

Ziege is good offensively but he would be exposed defensively against Laudrup whom even Maldini had problems coping with
Pushing Ziege up with Redondo on that side supplying Laudrup, Eto'o in the box to finish and Zidane as well

I'm convinced with that argument.

What we have done uptill now is more or less established that your team is stronger on the wings, and will create lots of chances down the left and right.

@Balu needs to tell us how his teams will work on the counter to to exploit that centrally. Effenberg, Scholl and Klinsmann haven't even got the ball, yet.