RedCafe.net Editorial: Fighting for their futures

[Niall]

<a href="https://www.redcafe.net/2002-03/editorial.php3?id=88" target="_blank">Fighting for their futures</a>
After United's dismal slump in the Manchester derby it's now time for the players to shape up or be shipped out. And it's a crucial two months ahead for several big name stars...

 

[ang]

Totally agree:-
Five players will be safe - Keane, Beckham, Van Nistelrooy, Scholes and Ferdinand. The rest face a battle to convince their manager that they still have what it takes to play for Manchester United.

 

[RUnited]

I tend to agree with the article, except for his "5 exclusive safe players' club".

i haven't seen becks better than giggs in any game this season.. why not add giggs to the 'safe players club' or minus becks from that group? what about Gaz? he has not done anything but say and act on the field how much he loves this club.. what about butt? he has shown excellent signs of replacing keane.. and what about forlan? he's done nothing but tried in his 40 games with us.. he's even scored the last couple of times he's been given a chance..

truth is we do have great players here.. some have shown their worth.. others have been lacking it.. but the whole team should be held responsible when things go wrong.. if anyone's to blame then it's everyone.. for not motivating each other enough on the field.. it's a team game.. not individually played..

so ultimately, i don't think it's fair someone can provide exceptions to 5 players and then tell the rest to try harder. every goddamn player have to try harder. NO ONE'S CAREER AT THE CLUB SHOULD BE SAFE AT THIS POINT - and this includes SAF himself also.

 

[overpoli4mel]

surely you guys must be wanting to add giggs to the list?that guy is just awesome. And butt has been fast improving. Think you missed beckham lots on saterday neville plays so much better when he has beckham in front doesn't he. That could be why he had a terrible game.
but phill in midfield thats gotta stop surely?

 

[Amir]

No exclusive 'safe' club. If you aren't good enough, hungry enough or good for the team - you're out. Whether your name is Roy Keane of Luke Chadwick.

Having said that, I don't see a problem with the 2 who should be the foundation of the team in years to come - Rio and O'Shea. They'll have to do something really foolish to ruin that.

 

[Amir]

Originally posted by overpoli4mel:
<strong>
but phill in midfield thats gotta stop surely?</strong><hr></blockquote>

True. But what are you going to do? You need someone in midfield who can win the ball, but both Keane and Butt are out and I think even Stewart, who might have a big chance, is out.

 

[Livvie]

Originally posted by ang:
<strong>Totally agree:-
Five players will be safe - Keane, Beckham, Van Nistelrooy, Scholes and Ferdinand. </strong><hr></blockquote>

Based on what?? Not Saturday's performance that's for sure. Apart from Scholes that is. Ruud and Rio were awful.

I can see no reason why OGS is only a maybe. And why Nicky Butt isn't included I can't imagine.

 

[the reporter]

Originally posted by Livvie20:
<strong>

Based on what?? Not Saturday's performance that's for sure. Apart from Scholes that is. Ruud and Rio were awful.

I can see no reason why OGS is only a maybe. And why Nicky Butt isn't included I can't imagine.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Shall I clarify?
Ruud safe - based on last year's performance in an otherwise disappointing season

Scholes safe - there is no better attacking midfielder in the country

Beckham safe - spent so long organising the new deal United are hardly likely to sell him now.

Keane safe - club captain. United have stuck by him. Team needs him.

Ferdinand safe - hardly likely to sell him, just bought him!

Butt - sure, he had a great World Cup, but surely he would have established himself as a first team regular by now, he hasn't. Good back-up but Keane and Scholes should be first choice.

Solskjaer - hitting 30. Will still be a 'sub' if United buy a new striker. Has had a good run in the team this season but still hasn't made the position his own. Yorke and Cole were sold around the same age. That's why he's not safe.

Giggs - how long do we have to wait for him to show the form of six or seven years ago? He looks to be holding back for fear of injury (particularly hamstring). Doesn't take players on to any great effect any more. The left wing slot is his own when fit. Needs a challenge (perhaps from Richardson?)

Gary Neville - okay, a quality full back, but lapses in concentration have crept into his game in the past couple of years. I know he lives, breaths, eats Manchester United, but you have to match that with quality performances on the pitch.

NONE OF THIS IS BASED ON SATURDAY'S PERFORMANCE. READ THE ARTICLE. IT'S BASED ON WATCHING UNITED FALL BEHIND LIVERPOOL AND ARSENAL OVER THE PAST COUPLE OF SEASONS.
Surely if the players at the club are not performing well enough, they need to improve otherwise new player may be brought in. Simple as that.
I've outlined the reasons why five seem to be secure. The rest have a lot of convincing to do over the next two months.
We can all have a certain faithfulness to players who have been at the club for years, but isn't that half the reason the will to win has gone? Been there, done that etc.
In no way am I advocating a mass sale of United's players. Some of them need a new challenge - and a fight for their place might be what's in order - and that includes the five I've marked down as 'untouchable' (though I don't like that word).

 

[Livvie]

Good article. Have to say.

 

[Kilcarman]

pretty well spot on I feel ...however would want to keep Butt, and Gary Neville , espite his occaional lapses ..he is a fighter and a true red ...

We are heading into a crisis ,( some may say we are already there ) and fegie giving them a bollocking isnt going to do much Im afraid to that lot ....they are too rich , some too old , sall too comfortable re their places to be overawed by any of Fergies rants now .

 

[Argiepoo]

Now THERE's the way to write an article... No complaints about writing style here!!

 

[Gazza]

Good article.

 

[lchk]

We have all heard this before about players being threatened with the sack if they don't shape up since last season but who has departed?

I'm pretty certain all this public criticism by SAF to his players is just his way of letting off steam and none of the squad will be sold or let go in January or next summer.

Realistically speaking, can anyone see us shipping out players like Veron or even Phil Neville let alone Giggs or Beckham? I doubt it.

 

[phunky]

Originally posted by lchk:
<strong>Realistically speaking, can anyone see us shipping out players like Veron or even Phil Neville let alone Giggs or Beckham? I doubt it.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Did anyone envisage him letting Stam or Mark Hughes or Ince the clown go??

Pretty cool article tho`~

 

[RUnited]

Originally posted by Argiepoo:
<strong>Now THERE's the way to write an article... No complaints about writing style here!! </strong><hr></blockquote>

that just hurts man, after all we have been through.. <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" />

 

[lchk]

Originally posted by phunky:
<strong>

Did anyone envisage him letting Stam or Mark Hughes or Ince the clown go??

Pretty cool article tho`~ </strong><hr></blockquote>

Ok, who do you think will be sold?

 

[the reporter]

Realistically I don't think anyone will be sold - at least not until the summer.
The point is, the players have to know they have no divine right to play for Manchester United. They need to be made to fight for their place. At the minute I don't see much competition for places - Van Nistelrooy's fit, he's in. Beckham's fit, he's in. Giggs's fit, he's in...etc, etc.
The players also need to know that if they don't perform, they're out. No-one can be dropped if there are no suitable players to take their place.

 

[redmad]

You can argue with details but spot on article IMO

 

[Julian Denny]

Originally posted by the reporter:
<strong>Realistically I don't think anyone will be sold - at least not until the summer.
The point is, the players have to know they have no divine right to play for Manchester United. They need to be made to fight for their place. At the minute I don't see much competition for places - Van Nistelrooy's fit, he's in. Beckham's fit, he's in. Giggs's fit, he's in...etc, etc.
The players also need to know that if they don't perform, they're out. No-one can be dropped if there are no suitable players to take their place.</strong><hr></blockquote>

So it's a bit of a problem then. Fergie cannot threaten to drop someone knowing he hasn't got a replacement. Then again maybe he should say to hell with it and stick in one or two of the youngsters just to make a firm statement that whatever the situation he will not tolerate lack of commitment and spirit under any circumstances. If he shows clear intent I'm sure the fans will back him. He needs to deal with this very decisively otherwise one or two will take advantage if they've not done so already. What he does will give us a clearer indication of whether or not he has it in him to put us back on top where we belong.

 

[lchk]

Originally posted by Julian Denny:
<strong>

So it's a bit of a problem then. Fergie cannot threaten to drop someone knowing he hasn't got a replacement. Then again maybe he should say to hell with it and stick in one or two of the youngsters just to make a firm statement that whatever the situation he will not tolerate lack of commitment and spirit under any circumstances. If he shows clear intent I'm sure the fans will back him. He needs to deal with this very decisively otherwise one or two will take advantage if they've not done so already. What he does will give us a clearer indication of whether or not he has it in him to put us back on top where we belong.</strong><hr></blockquote>

It will remain a problem until next summer at the very least because SAF can't afford to get rid of the first teamers now, not when the squad is so thin and crying out for reinforcements.

And yet I still get the feeling that very few players (and probably fringe players at that) will leave the club next summer.

Which would just further compound the problem as players become more and more complacent....

 

[lchk]

Originally posted by Julian Denny:
<strong>

Then again maybe he should say to hell with it and stick in one or two of the youngsters just to make a firm statement that whatever the situation he will not tolerate lack of commitment and spirit under any circumstances. </strong><hr></blockquote>

So who do you think should be dropped?

 

[Julian Denny]

Originally posted by lchk:
<strong>

It will remain a problem until next summer at the very least because SAF can't afford to get rid of the first teamers now, not when the squad is so thin and crying out for reinforcements.

And yet I still get the feeling that very few players (and probably fringe players at that) will leave the club next summer.

Which would just further compound the problem as players become more and more complacent....</strong><hr></blockquote>

You're probably right on that but I'm talking about dropping one or two not necessarily selling them. In the longer term if he allows players to stay at the Club knowing that they are not pulling their weight for whatever reason then that's criminal. I got the impression listening to Fergie recently that he was not aware of who Keane was talking about regarding underperformance last season, although he didn't disagree with him ! He might have been a little disingenuous on that though. Very strange !

 

[Julian Denny]

Originally posted by lchk:
<strong>

So who do you think should be dropped?</strong><hr></blockquote>

To be honest I can't tell who's underperforming due to lack of commitment, lack of form or for whatever reason. That's for Fergie to determine. All I know is that over the last two seasons, except Keane not one of our squad has shown anything like the type of consistency, game in and game out, required by a championship side. Whatever the situation Fergie should drop whoever he thinks is underperforming whether it be Giggs, RVN, Rio or whoever. He must make a firm statement that nobody has a place by right.

 

[thumper]

Good article but I think 1 point is being missed. SAF is the manager, is responsible for the team, the players, the style. The buck stops with him. I'm not having a go at him or calling for his head or anything like that but as the manager he has to "manage" and if the team are not performing or certain players are not performing then they need to be dropped. There are some good reserves who will only get better with experience (look how JOS has come on). I think SAF may have taken his eye off the ball and is maybe now not as committed as he once was, I'm sure the passion and drive is still there but the commitment isn't. Maybe now that Rock of Gibralter has been retired his focus might turn fully now to the day job of getting us back to winning ways or at the very least to playing entertaining football the UTD way.

 

[lchk]

Originally posted by Julian Denny:
<strong>

To be honest I can't tell who's underperforming due to lack of commitment, lack of form or for whatever reason. That's for Fergie to determine. All I know is that over the last two seasons, except Keane not one of our squad has shown anything like the type of consistency, game in and game out, required by a championship side. Whatever the situation Fergie should drop whoever he thinks is underperforming whether it be Giggs, RVN, Rio or whoever. He must make a firm statement that nobody has a place by right.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I can't see that happening for two reasons (despite whatever threats Fergie has uttered to his players):

1. SAF's loyalty to certain first teamers
2. There's nobody adequate enough on the bench
or from the reserves who can step in and do
the business for certain positions (eg striker).

Hence I believe the status quo will remain and to me, that leaves us at risk....

 

[Julian Denny]

Originally posted by thumper:
<strong>Good article but I think 1 point is being missed. SAF is the manager, is responsible for the team, the players, the style. The buck stops with him. I'm not having a go at him or calling for his head or anything like that but as the manager he has to "manage" and if the team are not performing or certain players are not performing then they need to be dropped. There are some good reserves who will only get better with experience (look how JOS has come on). I think SAF may have taken his eye off the ball and is maybe now not as committed as he once was, I'm sure the passion and drive is still there but the commitment isn't. Maybe now that Rock of Gibralter has been retired his focus might turn fully now to the day job of getting us back to winning ways or at the very least to playing entertaining football the UTD way.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Spot on ! In full agreement particularly the bit about The Rock !!

 

[Amir]

Originally posted by Julian Denny:
<strong>

Spot on ! In full agreement particularly the bit about The Rock !!</strong><hr></blockquote>

I thought about it to, but banished it from my head. First of all, it's a horse! Fergie's a part-owner, but how much time can he devote to Rock? Doesn't seem to be much in it.

A couple of years back he said his dealing with horses was his way of relaxing himself into something outside football. I don't think Rock became a priority over Man United.

 

[Julian Denny]

Originally posted by Amir:
<strong>

I thought about it to, but banished it from my head. First of all, it's a horse! Fergie's a part-owner, but how much time can he devote to Rock? Doesn't seem to be much in it.

A couple of years back he said his dealing with horses was his way of relaxing himself into something outside football. I don't think Rock became a priority over Man United.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I think you're right about that. The only thing I thought about was that Fergie often seemed far happier and full of life on the race course with The Rock than at OT. Therefore it had crossed my mind that perhaps it was a distraction.

 

[RUnited]

Originally posted by Julian Denny:
<strong>

I think you're right about that. The only thing I thought about was that Fergie often seemed far happier and full of life on the race course with The Rock than at OT. Therefore it had crossed my mind that perhaps it was a distraction.</strong><hr></blockquote>

he did look full of life the season after we won the CL.. hasn't been recently because one we're not doing very good, two he wants to retire already..

the Rock gives him that pleasure everytime he goes on the race track - who wouldn't be full of life with that kind of record?

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

Giggs' future is secure. He and Ruud are our top scorers away from whom in our last few seasons if anyone has noticed.

 

[uranushk1]

Excellent article indeed. Nearly every major problems have been discussed:
- Complacency of players and manager
- Poor transfer policy, squad not strengthen enough
- Lack of fighting spirit.
He only missed out the poor tactical/formation decision of Fergie.

Though I don't agree he said only 5 players are safe. Fergie won't sell his sons (Giggs, Butt, Neville, etc.) if he still has breath.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

Barthez was aplus in the derby match too.

 

[LosLocos]

I get so frustrated of watching United these days! For one reason only: The ridiculus tactics of SAF. Since SFA let DB and RG operate more freely in midfield it has been to crowded. The addition of an extra midfielder in his hopeless 4-5-1 formation doesn't make it any better! And we have no players operating on the flanks. If you read the stats, DB still tops the list of crosses, but the stats lie! What they don't say is that this years (and most of last years) crosses came from 40 meters out if not behind the midfield line... And he was standing still hitting the ball! When "we" were flying we were playing with wingers and they put in crosses from the touch line while running. Where is the pace in our attacks? Everton play more attractive than us.

In reply to your editorial I must say I agree to some extent. We must get ride of the B-players and strengthen the squad with more physical players, but I think we would come a long way by just difining strict work assignments for every player, make a game plan, play 4-4-2 with RG and DB ON the wings and just make the players feel more confident again. The only one who can do this is the manager SAF. If he is to old to see this then I think he is the first one who should be fighting for his place...

 

[devilish]

It is sad when you see the end of the glorous 4-4-2 formation to cover the arses of certian players.

Let me explain

the 4-4-1-1 is CRAP but have brought these positive points.

1 Playing an extra midfielder is protecting the crappy defense we have ( comeon ppl admit it its shit)

2 It breaks the dirty work (from 4 to 5) which our midfielders are supposed to do.

We lack of competition in several positions ( LB RW STK), certian players (G Nev, Blanc, Giggs, R Keane)knows that whatever happens they have an automatic place, while others( P Nev) knows that despite that they are crap they will always remain at OT.

We need new players, but more urgently we need a new mentality, were players play for their commitment and not their reputation. I agree SAF need a better tactical approach and should be more shrewd in the transfer market, but this is only the tip of the icaberg.

SAF has little fault

the facts are that our players have become LAZY and UNWORTHY TO PLAY AT OT. Protecting them will only increase the weight on Manutd's decline

 

[devilish]

My team ( starting line up)

Barthez
Kaladze ( a better overall player than MS)
Ayala
Ferdinand
OShea ( a better overall player than GN)
Beckham
Keane
Scholes
Giggs
RVN
Ronaldinho

Ricardo
Carroll
Steele

G Nev
Silvestre
Brown
Tierney

Butt
Castroman
Stewart
Djordic
Fortune

OGS
Saas
Webber
Forlan


In Kaladze DLC DMC (10m) Ayala DC(free)
Castroman D AM LWC(part of Stam deal)
Ronaldinho (20m) Saas (free)

Loan Stewart, Richardson, Nardiello, Tierney, Timm, Fletcher.

Out May 1m, P Nev 6m, Chadwick 3m, Veron 24m, Fortune 3m Blanc free.

price 30M out + (6m signing on fee) = 36m
in 37 + ( 6m) Stam = 43 m
Answer 7m profit + a much better team

 

[Mush]

Totally agree with the editorial, one of the most objective and knowledgeable pieces of writing ever from a Red. Giggs should not be added to the safe list of players who perform, but we all know he will never ever be sold. He is one of the biggest underachiever's in the game, for someone who had the greatest potential at such an early age. At his now so called peak he has not set the world alight, just mere flashes of brilliance. This is a player that should for the last five years been a contender for World/European player of the Year. He should be dictating play and stamping his authority on games. Too often we see Giggs fail to take on the full back, forever come inside, hit the first defender with his crosses, or just go missing in a game completely.
I don't wish to make Giggs any kind of scapegoat but he frustrates me so much. He can never be called an all time great, but it has always been in his grasp to be so.

 

[sidsutton]

That was a helluva good read.

I was talking with some friends at work about the same stuff. I basically said that I was looking for pride from the players for the remainder of the season. I'm not too worried about trophies. I want to see that they still have the hunger, the thirst for battle. If that was not forthcoming then I would blow up the team completely and buy young, hungry players and build a team from scratch that will be a force in maybe 2 years time. (whether Fergie has the desire to go through that process again, I don't know). I had a list of 5 player who I would keep(slightly different to the ones in the article) and I started thinking/naming players who we could bring in.

I refrained from posting all this here because I didn't think I had the required flame-proof clothing. <img src="graemlins/nervous.gif" border="0" alt="[Nervous]" />

 

[RUnited]

Originally posted by Mush:
<strong>He is one of the biggest underachiever's in the game, for someone who had the greatest potential at such an early age. At his now so called peak he has not set the world alight, just mere flashes of brilliance. This is a player that should for the last five years been a contender for World/European player of the Year. </strong> <hr></blockquote>

I heard someone said that the only reasons giggs hasn't been contending for these awards are because of Wales' inability to perform on World stage.. performance for the club alone doesn't provide enough merits for the top awards. someone should confirm, but i'm quite certain this is correct.

<strong>
He should be dictating play and stamping his authority on games. <hr></blockquote> </strong>

He's always been a quiet lad on the field - that's why he has a lot of genuine fans who really like him because of his ability on the field - and not for his off-field antics or on the field leadership ability.

To say the truth, i've never been one to support giggs getting the armband, his character doesn't match that of a leader.. although i am quite surprised he has been relegated on SAF's captains list.

<strong>
Too often we see Giggs fail to take on the full back, forever come inside, hit the first defender with his crosses, or just go missing in a game completely.
I don't wish to make Giggs any kind of scapegoat but he frustrates me so much. He can never be called an all time great, but it has always been in his grasp to be so.</strong><hr></blockquote>

he is certainly among the all time greats.. but hasn't been consistant because of his injuries.. Best failed to continue his legacy, but he's still a legend isn't he?

Giggs' performance in the last two years should not cloud the fans from his true ability and how much he gave to us up until '99.. his gameplan has certainly changed to accomodate his injuries, but it shouldn't affect our thinking about his capability.. personally i'd like to see him keep fit 60 games a year rather than taking on fullbacks then getting injured every 5 games. hopefully he'll get used to this style of play and produce something before it's too late..

It's a pity he isn't stronger, but that's life.

 

[the reporter]

Originally posted by Mush:
<strong>Totally agree with the editorial, one of the most objective and knowledgeable pieces of writing ever from a Red.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Very nice of you to say so

 

[Roko]

Originally posted by devilish:
<strong>My team ( starting line up)

Barthez
Kaladze ( a better overall player than MS)
Ayala
Ferdinand
OShea ( a better overall player than GN)
Beckham
Keane
Scholes
Giggs
RVN
Ronaldinho...


In Kaladze DLC DMC (10m) Ayala DC(free)
Castroman D AM LWC(part of Stam deal)
Ronaldinho (20m) Saas (free)

Loan Stewart, Richardson, Nardiello, Tierney, Timm, Fletcher.

Out May 1m, P Nev 6m, Chadwick 3m, Veron 24m, Fortune 3m Blanc free.

price 30M out + (6m signing on fee) = 36m
in 37 + ( 6m) Stam = 43 m
Answer 7m profit + a much better team</strong><hr></blockquote>

So the answer to our problems is to play fantasy football is it?

A couple of points I want to raise:

1) While I agree that Kaladze is a good player, he is a non EU citizen, meaning officially we would have to play him in nearly every game (although the survival of Fortune casts doubt on this, I admit). Also, his brother is currently being held hostage by Chechens or something, so would we want that kind of distraction at the club? Remember Kanchelskis and the rumours about the Russian mafia?

2) Castroman - yes another good player, but I don't know whether he has an EU passport. Plus, would he even want to move as a makeweight for the Stam cash. remember, we have been linked with Sorin for the very same reason for ages and nothing has come from it as yet.

3) You have Sas as a squad player. Personally I don't see it. He is a proud bloke who wouldn't appreciate taking second place to Ronaldinho who is, after all, a younger player. I think it would have to be either/or as far as Sas and Ronaldinho are concerned.

4) Ronaldinho - Again, another who has been linked since forever. Do we really need another expensive South American?

5) £6 mill for Phil Neville? You are having a laugh aren't ya?

6) £24 mill for Veron? See above.

7) Your planning has actually made a weak squad even weaker, i.e. you have 'sold' 6 players and brought in 5, while loaning out all our youth players. We don't know how the Stam thing will be resolved, and I think you are joking that we could get Ayala and Sas for a mere £6 mill in signing on fees (even if the fees are paid at various stages of the of the contract, as is the norm)

Back to the drawing board methinks...