Redcafe Cricket Draft- MJJ vs Stretch

[KM]

Welcome Ladies and Gentlemen to a nice summer morning here at the MCG.

Well its all happening here at the MCG. We are here to kick off our Greatest XI Tournament. In our first match, we pitch the South African Pigeons managed by Stretch against MJJ's Squirrels. And this game will go down to the wire. Lots of greats on display here. Just what the doctor ordered.

Lets go down to Richie Benaud for the pitch report:
The pitch has everything for everyone. The ball will swing and seam around and has something for the spinners too. However, intelligent batsman can score runs here. It'll be a great contest between bat and ball.

Lets hear what the managers have to say:


Stretch XI

Spoiler

Stretch’s Rainbow Warriors line up:
1. Kepler Wessels (c) – Scoring 2788 runs at an ave of 41.00; dogged opener capable of seeing of the most potent seam attacks as he showed on debut for Aus scoring 162 against an England attack with Botham and Bob Willis. He also averaged 56 vs a Windies side with Marshall, Garner and Walsh.
2. Tillakaratne Dilshan (wk) – Scoring 5028 runs at an ave of 41.21; he’s got 80 tests under his belt and the exact opposite to Wessels in batting style. Aggressive and loves playing his shots, Dilshan is well travelled boasting an average of almost 50 in England.
3. Hashim Amla – Scoring 4775 runs at an ave of 50.26; Hash is a genius in the making, if not already. He’s been in immense form since 2009 for SA scoring 3733 runs at an ave of 59.25 and 12 hundreds since then.
4. Younis Khan (vc) – Scoring over 6500 runs at an ave of 51.69 with 20 centuries; Younis is a modern Pakistan great. He’s known for being a fighter when the chips are down and is known for his rearguard specialties. A master of the 4th innings, could be vital against a potent bowling attack.
5. Thilan Samaraweera – Having scored over 5000 runs at an ave of 51.29; Samaraweera is mister dependable and a mainstay in the Sri Lanka line up. His main strength is his patience which wears bowlers down. His 2 centuries in South Africa is testament to his determination.
6. Andrew Symonds – Scoring 1462 runs at an ave of 40.61; Symonds provides an attacking option with gusto after a line-up featuring sturdy batsmen. A brilliant fielder and decent enough part time bowler, capable of the all-important ‘partnership breaking’ ball.
7. Tim Bresnan – The one risky pick in the line-up with only 15 tests, Bresnan does provide a much needed balance to the side having scored 3 50s and taken 56 wickets at 28s; between Tim and Strang (12th man), they provide good options to balance the side depending on opposition.
8. Brett Lee – Having taken 312 wickets at 30s, Brett was just short being a great due to his injury concerns. At his best though, Lee took 58 scalps (shortly after McGrath’s retirement, 07/08) at 21s allowing Australia to still dominate. Capable of bowling at 150clicks with outswing with the new ball and reverse swing (to right hander) with the older ball, he’s a dependable wicket taker at his best. Having scored 5 50s and averaging 20.15 with the bat, he’s a great lower order batsman to have.
9. Fanie de Villiers – ‘Vinnige Fanie’ (means ‘Fast Fanie’ in Afrikaans) was one of SA’s strike bowlers after re-admission to international cricket. Due to the ban Fanie only played 18 tests but he’s 1st class record during the competitive 80s in SA speaks volumes of his ability. He took 85 wickets at 24s in test cricket and 427 wickets at 22s in 1st class cricket. Predominantly a swing bowler with guile, and quick at his best, he opens the bowling along with Bishop in this side. With 2 50s to his name with the bat, he’s useful at 9.
10. Rangana Herath – Rangana has taken 146 wickets at 31s as a left arm orthodox spinner with a ball ‘that goes the other way’. Well capable of being the lead strike bowler on a turning and slow wicket as well as holding an end for long spells, he’s a great spin option. He’s shown that he can bowl a side out in the last innings on a fading pitch. He’s no mug with the bat either having 80 n.o. as his highest score.
11. Ian Bishop – The teams main strike bowler, Bishop took 161 wickets at 24s and strike rate of 52. With a high side on action, he had pace and could move the ball of the seam. He got steep bounce from just back of a length and could really upset batsmen. Unfortunately for him, his career was cut short with injuries, else we’d be talking of the great trio of Walsh, Ambrose and Bishop today.

12th man: Paul Strang - agile fielder.

MJJ XI

Spoiler

Ganguly(C)
Atapattu
Sarwan
M.Yousuf
G. Hick
Trott
Jacobs
Ajmal
Steyn
Younis
Harmison

One of the teams has won the toss. Everything is in order. Dickie Bird screams play on. And here we go...

Here you go lads.

 

[Stretch]

My team boasts a very balanced line up with fighting spirit in every department. Whilst MJJ's team has excellent frontline pace attack with Younis and Steyn, he's lacking severely in batting class with Youssouf the only real class batsman he has. With Jacobs at 6 and with Bishop (genuine pace and bounce), Lee and de Villiers (pace and reverse swing) it should be pretty quick work to get rid of his long tail. His top order will be no match for my 3 quality quicks, especially Bishop. Bishop will trouble Ganguly to no end with quick away seam (away from left hander) and short pitched bowling. Throw in quick bursts of pace and swing bowling from Lee and you have a combo that's well capable of removing his team. Herath and Bresnan become important to give respite to my 3 pronged pace attack with Herath and Bresnan well capable of removing some of his batsmen. Herath will particularly play an important role in the 2nd innings with Symonds assisting where necessary.

His bowling attack is certainly fierce with Younis in particular but Wessels and Amla will frustrate them no end, even if Dilshan is removed early. A dependable combination of Amla, Khan and Samaraweera (averages above 50) gives solidity and absolute grit to my batting. He grossly underestimates Thilan for example, who averages 60+ in South Africa and that included 2 centuries which I watched him score. He's hard as nails and showed application and frustrated Steyn and co. My batting line up goes very deep with even my no.10 with a 50 to his name and my tail will certainly wag, especially with Khan and Samaraweera both being specialists in rearguard batting with tailend batsmen.

Overall, my team is much more balanced and well capable of getting 20 wickets with his very average batting line up whilst boasting a very solid batting line up.

 

[Interval]

Stretch XI

Wessels will captain the side with assistance from Khan and Dilshan as well. The team bats deep until 8 and even Fanie at 9 could hold his own. The middle order from 3 to 5 oozes class and determination. The right and left opening pair are experienced campaigners with Dilshan looking to attack whilst Wessels will look to anker the innings. The lower order batsmen can take the game away from the opposition as well as frustrate them, with Herath having a 50 to his name. The bowling attack sees Fanie and Ian Bishop opening the bowling. Fanie can swing the ball both ways whilst Bish could move the ball of the seam at pace. With Brett Lee as first change, he will be used for short stints of aggressive pace bowling to rough up batsmen. Herath will be the sides lead spin option and Wessels has Khan and Dilshan to call upon here for field placings and tactics for his spinner. Herath can hold an end if the pitch is suited to the quicks but can take a leading role if there’s turn. Bresnan brings the fifth option to the table with his seam and Symonds can be called upon if a huge partnership is in the making. All in all, this is a very well rounded test side with determination written all over it and can beat anyone.

MJJ XI

My bowling is obviously my strength with an opening pair of younis and steyn. Harmison will be coming in as first choice and ajmal will be brought in later. With Stretch's batting I feel I can get away with playing only four bowlers. The match is being played at melbourne which suits my bowlers even more. I expect dilshan to get out very quickly as he is not a good opener, particularly in test matches. The only real problem in his team will be amla as he can build an innings but I would back steyn and younis against him. Younis Khan,Samaweera and symonds should fall in quick succession.

Harmison will be bought into to deal with younis khan due to his height and bounce.

If need be, Ajmal will destroy the lower middle order with waqar younis exploiting the reverse swing later on.

On the batting side, I have ganguly opening and Sarwan coming in at number 3. Lee is the only world class bowler he has in his team and I feel that my batting line up is strong enough to see him off. I also bat very deep with yousuf,trott and hick all capable of playing long innnings.

I expect my team to post a total in excess of 400 runs and probably win the match by an innings given his batting and bowling. I have better fast bowlers,better spinner and better batsmen. This match should be a no contest.

 

[Stretch]

Just a sneak peak on Ian Bishop, for those of you young'uns who never saw him play. Shows why MJJ's assertion that Lee is my only class bowler is way of the mark:

 

[OB]

Brett Lee not opening the bowling, hmmm.
Also please don't include first class stats and all in the descriptions. Just keep it to tests.

 

[Stretch]

Brett Lee not opening the bowling, hmmm.
Also please don't include first class stats and all in the descriptions. Just keep it to tests.

I did that for 1 player for very obvious reasons that I stated. And yes, Lee's not opening but he can come in should one of Bishop or de Villiers not be making in roads, especially de Villiers as he's a swing bowler.

 

[OB]

Also i don't know why Ganguly is opening here. He's played only 1 innings as an opener, and scored just 11 runs.
This is a bit tough.

 

[Desert Eagle]

I think MJJ would have been better off tinkering with his batting lineup. Looks very disjointed to me.

 

[NM]

Neither team bats deep enough for me, but Ganguly as a test openner is a serious mistake IMO. It is like batting with a man down. I'll vote more once I think more about the matchup though.

 

[Red-Indian]

MJJ's batting has quite a few weaknesses

- As Omar mentioned, Ganguly is NOT a test opener. He used to bat at 5 or 6 and hated the shortpitched stuff.
- Hick never got going when the going got tough.

Plus there's nobody to force the pace in a fourth innings chase or when some quick runs have to be put on the board.

He's very dependant on his bowling. There his weakness is that none of Steyn, Younis or Harmison likes long spells. All of them have to bowl in short bursts to be effective (maybe Steyn slightly less than the others). The load will be very heavy on Ajmal.

That said, when Steyn and Younis are on song, they can wipe out any batting line up in the world. Atapattu, Yousuf and Trott are excellent batsmen, if a little stodgy.

I'll talk about Stretch's team in a minute.

 

[Red-Indian]

I've said this before but what Stretch lacks is a truly awesome bowler. His bowling reminds me of Australia's after McGrath and Warne retired. The likes of Lee, Clarke, Johnson etc. used to get the job done and Australia won a lot more than they lost but they lacked the fear factor which made them a great team.

The batting's pretty good with Dilshan and Symonds to provide the spark while the two Khans can play the long innings. Wessels and Samaraweera can drop anchor when needed.

I think on the whole that he'd win this one and i'm probably going to vote that way. I'll give it a bit more thought though and wait to hear from MJJ.

 

[MJJ]

My team boasts a very balanced line up with fighting spirit in every department. Whilst MJJ's team has excellent frontline pace attack with Younis and Steyn, he's lacking severely in batting class with Youssouf the only real class batsman he has. With Jacobs at 6 and with Bishop (genuine pace and bounce), Lee and de Villiers (pace and reverse swing) it should be pretty quick work to get rid of his long tail. His top order will be no match for my 3 quality quicks, especially Bishop. Bishop will trouble Ganguly to no end with quick away seam (away from left hander) and short pitched bowling. Throw in quick bursts of pace and swing bowling from Lee and you have a combo that's well capable of removing his team. Herath and Bresnan become important to give respite to my 3 pronged pace attack with Herath and Bresnan well capable of removing some of his batsmen. Herath will particularly play an important role in the 2nd innings with Symonds assisting where necessary.

His bowling attack is certainly fierce with Younis in particular but Wessels and Amla will frustrate them no end, even if Dilshan is removed early. A dependable combination of Amla, Khan and Samaraweera (averages above 50) gives solidity and absolute grit to my batting. He grossly underestimates Thilan for example, who averages 60+ in South Africa and that included 2 centuries which I watched him score. He's hard as nails and showed application and frustrated Steyn and co. My batting line up goes very deep with even my no.10 with a 50 to his name and my tail will certainly wag, especially with Khan and Samaraweera both being specialists in rearguard batting with tailend batsmen.

Overall, my team is much more balanced and well capable of getting 20 wickets with his very average batting line up whilst boasting a very solid batting line up.

I disagree on the fact that I have a weaker batting line up compares to yours. Atapattu is a better batsman compared to dilshan, specially in test matches. Your middle order consists of amla,younis khan,samaweera and symonds whereas mine is sarwan,yousuf,hick and trott. Amla and yousuf at their peak are probably on the same level with yousuf having a longer career compare to amla. Younis Khan is an excellent batsman but he will struggle against a bowling attack of waqar,steyn and harmison at his peak. Watch the england vs pakistan series a few years back to get an idea of how woeful he will be in this match. Harmison was terrorising him in that series as he could not handle the pace and bounce generated by him. sarwan,trott and hick >samaweera ,bresnan and symonds.

I am playing 3 specialist batsmen while you are going with two allrounders and samaweera. I would probably put him and trott on the same level but expect samaweera to struggle a lot against my bowling attack compared to my batsmen struggling against yours.

Like I said I dont expect younis to make a score greater than 50 and this if from someone who has watched all of his matches. I would have waqar younis and ajmal bowling in tandem against your tail. So dont expect any of them to add anything to your total with waqar reverse swinging the bowl and ajmal bowling his doosras.

Overall my bowling is far superior to you, specially as the pitch worses. Herath is not a patch on ajmal and I can also get ganguly to bowl as well if the need arises. Herath's average at away grounds is 42 and at neutral grounds 35. Is this the bowling stats of a lead bowler when we are playing at melbourne? I dont expect him to do anything of note during the whole series.


and according to cricinfo dilshan has only played 3 test matches as a keeper so having him as your only keeper will cost you during the match.

Cant comment on some of your players as have never seen them play.

 

[MJJ]

MJJ's batting has quite a few weaknesses

- As Omar mentioned, Ganguly is NOT a test opener. He used to bat at 5 or 6 and hated the shortpitched stuff.
- Hick never got going when the going got tough.

Plus there's nobody to force the pace in a fourth innings chase or when some quick runs have to be put on the board.

He's very dependant on his bowling. There his weakness is that none of Steyn, Younis or Harmison likes long spells. All of them have to bowl in short bursts to be effective (maybe Steyn slightly less than the others). The load will be very heavy on Ajmal.

That said, when Steyn and Younis are on song, they can wipe out any batting line up in the world. Atapattu, Yousuf and Trott are excellent batsmen, if a little stodgy.

I'll talk about Stretch's team in a minute.

Ganguly has an average of 47 as a number 3 and 66 as a number 4 so I dont think he will have too much trouble facing the new ball. I dont think that I would need to force the pace during the fourth innings as a)this is a test match and b)my bowling line up means I would seldom have to bat twice.

Ajmal is used to bowling long spells and holding down one end. I also have the option to let ganguly bowl a few overs to give ajmal a rest if the need arises although I dont think it will get to that.

 

[MJJ]

I've said this before but what Stretch lacks is a truly awesome bowler. His bowling reminds me of Australia's after McGrath and Warne retired. The likes of Lee, Clarke, Johnson etc. used to get the job done and Australia won a lot more than they lost but they lacked the fear factor which made them a great team.

The batting's pretty good with Dilshan and Symonds to provide the spark while the two Khans can play the long innings. Wessels and Samaraweera can drop anchor when needed.

I think on the whole that he'd win this one and i'm probably going to vote that way. I'll give it a bit more thought though and wait to hear from MJJ.

Like I mentioned earlier you are overestimating younis khan here. I dont expect him to provide anything against my bowling line up as he struggles against pace and bounce. The inclusion of harmison at his peak guarantees that he wont be able to get any runs. Dilshan will be facing the opening pair of younis and steyn so dont expect him to score a lot of runs or play his natural game. Even Stretch conceeds this, plus he will be keeping something which he is not used to be doing. Ditto with symonds as stretch needs someone to build the innings and not play gung-ho.

 

[Red-Indian]

and according to cricinfo dilshan has only played 3 test matches as a keeper so having him as your only keeper will cost you during the match.

Cant comment on some of your players as have never seen them play.

Thats a fair point. Given how rarely Dilshan plays as keeper, you can expect him to be very rusty and drop a few. Also, even if its a small sample, his average seems to drop dramatically when he keeps. I guess you'd expect that for an opener...if he's got to come in and start batting after a long session of crouching.

You've certainly made me think again. Its a close one.

 

[MJJ]

I know I am biased but our batting is on par while my bowling is vastly superior to his. I have already posted herath's average outside of the srilanka which should show how unreliable he is.

He also says that herath is no mug with the bat but his batting average is 14 home and away. Outside srilanka, I expect this to drop as well.

samaweera average in australia? 22. In england?27. Why would you expect him to bat a long innings in a pitch favouring pace bowlers, specially given the quality that I have.

 

[Stretch]

I disagree on the fact that I have a weaker batting line up compares to yours. Atapattu is a better batsman compared to dilshan, specially in test matches. Your middle order consists of amla,younis khan,samaweera and symonds whereas mine is sarwan,yousuf,hick and trott. Amla and yousuf at their peak are probably on the same level with yousuf having a longer career compare to amla. Younis Khan is an excellent batsman but he will struggle against a bowling attack of waqar,steyn and harmison at his peak. Watch the england vs pakistan series a few years back to get an idea of how woeful he will be in this match. Harmison was terrorising him in that series as he could not handle the pace and bounce generated by him. sarwan,trott and hick >samaweera ,bresnan and symonds.

I am playing 3 specialist batsmen while you are going with two allrounders and samaweera. I would probably put him and trott on the same level but expect samaweera to struggle a lot against my bowling attack compared to my batsmen struggling against yours.

Like I said I dont expect younis to make a score greater than 50 and this if from someone who has watched all of his matches. I would have waqar younis and ajmal bowling in tandem against your tail. So dont expect any of them to add anything to your total with waqar reverse swinging the bowl and ajmal bowling his doosras.

Overall my bowling is far superior to you, specially as the pitch worses. Herath is not a patch on ajmal and I can also get ganguly to bowl as well if the need arises. Herath's average at away grounds is 42 and at neutral grounds 35. Is this the bowling stats of a lead bowler when we are playing at melbourne? I dont expect him to do anything of note during the whole series.


and according to cricinfo dilshan has only played 3 test matches as a keeper so having him as your only keeper will cost you during the match.

Cant comment on some of your players as have never seen them play.

Good points, but:

1. Ajmal won't do any better than Herath on an Australian pitch. Plus, Herath has the advantage of experience and guile over Ajmal. On a MCG pitch they'd both struggle.

2. You grossly underestimate Ian Bishop. He's a genuine quick with pace and bounce. He's in the same mould as Walsh and Ambrose especially.

3. Dilshan hasn't kept much in Tests but that should not be an issue as AB de Villiers recently showed. The loss on that front is minimal as I also have a very dependable bunch of hands in the slips with Wessels, Khan and Samaraweera.

4. You compare your middle order of sarwan,trott and hick to samaweera ,bresnan and symonds yet you cleverly leave out the real comparison. Amla, Younis, Samaraweera > Sarwan, Yousouf, Hick. Trott provides you with extra depth but Sarwan and Hick will be removed rather quickly. Also, Symonds is not an all rounder, he's a batsman that can bowl and more importantly, he's got a century at the MCG. Sarwan also just averages a mere 19 in 8 matches playing in Australia.

5. You severely underestimate the fighting spirit my team has. Most of my players are the ones that put their hands up when the chips are down.

Lastly, we're playing at the MCG and as this article shows (link), it needs a variety of bowling after the first 2 days and barely turns into a 'spinning' paradise as you'd expect. I have variety with my extra bowlers being Bresnan and Symonds whilst you only have Ganguly as an extra.

 

[Red-Indian]

I've voted gents. Sorry MJJ but despite liking your points, I just believe Stretch's superior balance would win the day.

I thought about it and in a 5 test series, i'd bet on Stretch winning 2-1 and that made up my mind.

It was a tough call though.

 

[Stretch]

I know I am biased but our batting is on par while my bowling is vastly superior to his. I have already posted herath's average outside of the srilanka which should show how unreliable he is.

He also says that herath is no mug with the bat but his batting average is 14 home and away. Outside srilanka, I expect this to drop as well.

samaweera average in australia? 22. In england?27. Why would you expect him to bat a long innings in a pitch favouring pace bowlers, specially given the quality that I have.

1. Spin will mostly be a stop gap in this match. The MCG will require them to ball very long spells with knicking a wicket here and there and Herath is well capable of doing that vs the likes of Hicks and Jacobs. He's well used to bowling close to 50 overs and has experience on his side.

2. Samaraweera has come on leaps and bounds since his early days. The last time he played in Australia was 07 and England 11. Since then he's come to South Africa where he faced Steyn and Morkel on bouncy and pace wickets with stats: ave 67.8 with 2 centuries in a 3 match series. He's shown he can handle quick bowling by learning from his weaknesses and pure application. Again, grit. That's what my side has plenty of which yours don't. Even Khan, that you've criticized heavily, comes out fighting when the sh!t has hit the proverbial fan.

Those are my last points for now.

 

[mightberight]

Aye, I'm really not sure on that batting order MJJ. I also think Stretch's bowling attack isn't that far behind yours, although Bresnan is a huge stretch. Wessels, Amla and Khan in there ... I think Stretch could hold on and rack up a few more runs for longer.

 

[MJJ]

Good points, but:

1. Ajmal won't do any better than Herath on an Australian pitch. Plus, Herath has the advantage of experience and guile over Ajmal. On a MCG pitch they'd both struggle.

2. You grossly underestimate Ian Bishop. He's a genuine quick with pace and bounce. He's in the same mould as Walsh and Ambrose especially.

3. Dilshan hasn't kept much in Tests but that should not be an issue as AB de Villiers recently showed. The loss on that front is minimal as I also have a very dependable bunch of hands in the slips with Wessels, Khan and Samaraweera.

4. You compare your middle order of sarwan,trott and hick to samaweera ,bresnan and symonds yet you cleverly leave out the real comparison. Amla, Younis, Samaraweera > Sarwan, Yousouf, Hick. Trott provides you with extra depth but Sarwan and Hick will be removed rather quickly. Also, Symonds is not an all rounder, he's a batsman that can bowl and more importantly, he's got a century at the MCG. Sarwan also just averages a mere 19 in 8 matches playing in Australia.

5. You severely underestimate the fighting spirit my team has. Most of my players are the ones that put their hands up when the chips are down.

Lastly, we're playing at the MCG and as this article shows (link), it needs a variety of bowling after the first 2 days and barely turns into a 'spinning' paradise as you'd expect. I have variety with my extra bowlers being Bresnan and Symonds whilst you only have Ganguly as an extra.

1)Ajmal has a bowling average of 29 away from home. He has only played one match in australia but played a series in england where he took 12 wickets in three matches. He has also vastly improved as a bowler since then.

2)Like I said I havent watch him at all so cant comment on him.

3)Have you seen his average while keeping? sangakarra who is a class batsman did not keep during test matches as it effected his batting so much. So you cant use the AB argument as his own country men is a closer comparison.

4)You are saying that sarwan and trott will be removed pretty quickly but are still arguing that younis khan will play a longer innings? At his peak yousuf was just as good as amla is now and for a longer period. Sarwan record against australia might be poor but he has a better one in SA and england while australia had one of the best bowling attack during this period.

5) Why with my front 3 bowlers would i be hoping for it to turn into a spinning paradise? Like I said the pitch suits me more than you and one century be symonds doesnt make him a good test player. Ajmal doesnt need as much assistance from the pitch compared to Herath and ganguly is only a back up option as I dont really need him. You might have more depth but symonds and bresnan are pretty average bowlers.

 

[Stretch]

Aye, I'm really not sure on that batting order MJJ. I also think Stretch's bowling attack isn't that far behind yours, although Bresnan is a huge stretch. Wessels, Amla and Khan in there ... I think Stretch could hold on and rack up a few more runs for longer.

I like it

1)Ajmal has a bowling average of 29 away from home. He has only played one match in australia but played a series in england where he took 12 wickets in three matches. He has also vastly improved as a bowler since then.

2)Like I said I havent watch him at all so cant comment on him.

3)Have you seen his average while keeping? sangakarra who is a class batsman did not keep during test matches as it effected his batting so much. So you cant use the AB argument as his own country men is a closer comparison.

4)You are saying that sarwan and trott will be removed pretty quickly but are still arguing that younis khan will play a longer innings? At his peak yousuf was just as good as amla is now and for a longer period. Sarwan record against australia might be poor but he has a better one in SA and england while australia had one of the best bowling attack during this period.

5) Why with my front 3 bowlers would i be hoping for it to turn into a spinning paradise? Like I said the pitch suits me more than you and one century be symonds doesnt make him a good test player. Ajmal doesnt need as much assistance from the pitch compared to Herath and ganguly is only a back up option as I dont really need him. You might have more depth but symonds and bresnan are pretty average bowlers.

I've not said that about Trott. I said Sarwan and Hick. Hick has an average of 31 mate. He's meh at best. Oh and I stand by what I said about fighting spirit, that's vitally important in test cricket, especially when it's as close as this.

 

[OB]

Tough call here. I'll vote later, but i think i am leaning towards MJJ. His bowling is very much better than Stech's. For me, his batting is decent, except for Ganguly opening, but then Dilshan keeping at the other end is also not really good. Granted Strech has a good batting line-up, still he would have trouble bowling, especially with Dilshan keeping.

Also, for Kepler, will both his spells with Aus and SA be taken into consideration?

 

[MJJ]

1. Spin will mostly be a stop gap in this match. The MCG will require them to ball very long spells with knicking a wicket here and there and Herath is well capable of doing that vs the likes of Hicks and Jacobs. He's well used to bowling close to 50 overs and has experience on his side.

2. Samaraweera has come on leaps and bounds since his early days. The last time he played in Australia was 07 and England 11. Since then he's come to South Africa where he faced Steyn and Morkel on bouncy and pace wickets with stats: ave 67.8 with 2 centuries in a 3 match series. He's shown he can handle quick bowling by learning from his weaknesses and pure application. Again, grit. That's what my side has plenty of which yours don't. Even Khan, that you've criticized heavily, comes out fighting when the sh!t has hit the proverbial fan.

Those are my last points for now.

The same khan that has rejected the captaincy thrice now? The majority of pakistani innings have been built by yousuf and inzamam. Younis khan is a good batsman but is not in the same class. and with all due respect, waqar younis is not morkel.

Ganguly,atapattu,yousuf and trott will destroy herath if any one of them settles in for long time. You are arguing that your players have grit and will fight back but my players wont need to as we will have the upper edge through out the match. I expect your dilshan to go out very quickly and depending upon the mood that steyn and younis are in you can expect 2/3 wickets to fall in quick succession. Younis Khan and samaweera will both struggle against harmison while ajmal will get wickets due to the variety that he has while occupying an end.

I like it



I've not said that about Trott. I said Sarwan and Hick. Hick has an average of 31 mate. He's meh at best. Oh and I stand by what I said about fighting spirit, that's vitally important in test cricket, especially when it's as close as this.

My bad. Got Hick and Trott missed up. True that is bad but it was an 11th choice pick.

 

[Stretch]

Tough call here. I'll vote later, but i think i am leaning towards MJJ. His bowling is very much better than Stech's. For me, his batting is decent, except for Ganguly opening, but then Dilshan keeping at the other end is also not really good. Granted Strech has a good batting line-up, still he would have trouble bowling, especially with Dilshan keeping.

Also, for Kepler, will both his spells with Aus and SA be taken into consideration?

Yes.

Both sides have their strong points and weaknesses. I've stated my case already and don't think much will sway you the other way. My biased opinion says his bowling attack is stronger than mine but not that much stronger, plus I've got variety if it gets sticky. His 5th bowler is Ganguly. My batting line up is stronger than his with steel, grit and flair when needed. But yeah, like I said that's my biased opinion

 

[Stretch]

The same khan that has rejected the captaincy thrice now? The majority of pakistani innings have been built by yousuf and inzamam. Younis khan is a good batsman but is not in the same class. and with all due respect, waqar younis is not morkel.

Ganguly,atapattu,yousuf and trott will destroy herath if any one of them settles in for long time. You are arguing that your players have grit and will fight back but my players wont need to as we will have the upper edge through out the match. I expect your dilshan to go out very quickly and depending upon the mood that steyn and younis are in you can expect 2/3 wickets to fall in quick succession. Younis Khan and samaweera will both struggle against harmison while ajmal will get wickets due to the variety that he has while occupying an end.



My bad. Got Hick and Trott missed up. True that is bad but it was an 11th choice pick.

You don't get to score as many runs as he has at the average he has with being a just a 'good batsman'. He's shown grit when Pakistan have been trouble in plenty of occasions, that's what his mostly known for. Oh and I never compared Morne to Waqar, not sure where you got that from mate.

Whilst I can concede, Dilshan can be a hit or miss, if he comes off he can take the game away from you very quickly and bringing Ajmal against him won't mean much as he's a great player of sping. Then, there's the absolute wall of a batsman called Wessels who with Amla will stop you from 'getting 2/3 wickets quickly'. Wessels navigated potent pace attacks consisting of Marshall and co so no, your not removing 2/3 quickly.

And, Harmison is harmless against Khan. See the England series in which Harmison played and Khan scored 173 and averaged 52 in, with Harmison bowling. If Khan settles, Ajmal will be negated by him as his one of the best in the world at playing spin, that much you do know. Samaraweera, again scored 2 centuries in his last tour to a country with pace wickets, South Africa. Against Steyn. Again, Amla, Khan and Samaraweera will negate Ajmal as they're all very good exponents of spin.

Plus, Trott was recently captured by Herath

 

[Interval]

Okay, so this is what I think. But first rules

- Players at their peak. Don't care if a player did not have a 12 year stint at the top. I'm still going to focus on his 1.5-2.5 yr peak unless the number of matches played are too few.

- Not considering pitches. I don't care if we're playing in Australia or at the Eden Gardens, pitches are the same and hence no arguments can be considered against bowling and batting variety.

- I'm going to deduct some points for players who haven't played enough tests unless they were forced to (like in case of Murray Goodwin)

- I'm NOT going to deduct points for not having world beaters in all positions. For egs, Thorpe is shit because he isn't as good as Inzi and score Thorpe's team a 0 for that position.

- Balance is important. 4 fast bowlers with no spinner is a rubbish. 3 fast bowlers who are just fast loses against a team of lesser recognized bowlers but with a sing bowler, seamer and a quickie. Same as for batsman.

- I'm going to give a bit of a leeway for batting position. Players sometimes spend careers at a certain number because someone else is more suited to a number above or below. This rule stands down if the deficiency is glaring though.

Stretch:
Openers - Solid opening pair. Nothing spectacular. Dilshan is a bit temperamental, ie, he clicks he clicks else he'll be gone soon

Middle order - His strength. It is an amazing middle order. It has everything: Runs, big scores, grit, wearing the bowlers down, ability to play spin.

Lower Order - Average. Symonds is a good player to have lower down. But again, he isn't exactly known for his ability to put his head down and play out with tail enders. Brett Lee is okay as a player to have as a no 9 in tests. He can hang in there but nothing much.

Bowlers - I think Ian Bishop and De Villiers are a good steady pair. Brett Lee is also a strong bowlers. I think his bowling unit of quickies is slightly underrated as all of them combined provide good variety and wicket taking ability. Lets not forget, we're talking about players at their peak here. Herath is decent and does have a few wickets to his name but is a poor performer in England, India or against Indians and Pakistanis indicating inability to adapt to pitches or players who can play spin.

WK: Dilshan is a poor poor option. Expect a few dropped catchs, byes and missed stumpings.

Overall balance: Batting goes till 6/7. Batsman are equally adept at facing pace and spin. Bowlers have decent variety. Good overall balance.

Tim Bresnan has too few games to his name to actually gauge his impact.


MJJ's team, Pros and Cons coming after dinner

 

[Stretch]

IL, I think that's a fair summary of my team. Awaiting your summary on MJJ's team.

 

[MJJ]

You don't get to score as many runs as he has at the average he has with being a just a 'good batsman'. He's shown grit when Pakistan have been trouble in plenty of occasions, that's what his mostly known for. Oh and I never compared Morne to Waqar, not sure where you got that from mate.

Whilst I can concede, Dilshan can be a hit or miss, if he comes off he can take the game away from you very quickly and bringing Ajmal against him won't mean much as he's a great player of sping. Then, there's the absolute wall of a batsman called Wessels who with Amla will stop you from 'getting 2/3 wickets quickly'. Wessels navigated potent pace attacks consisting of Marshall and co so no, your not removing 2/3 quickly.

And, Harmison is harmless against Khan. See the England series in which Harmison played and Khan scored 173 and averaged 52 in, with Harmison bowling. If Khan settles, Ajmal will be negated by him as his one of the best in the world at playing spin, that much you do know. Samaraweera, again scored 2 centuries in his last tour to a country with pace wickets, South Africa. Against Steyn. Again, Amla, Khan and Samaraweera will negate Ajmal as they're all very good exponents of spin.

Plus, Trott was recently captured by Herath

You said that he had performed well in SA against styen and morkel. My point was that waqar is superior to both so he will struggle. And that is only one series as well. Cant say anything about wessel again but I dont expect dilshan to last that long anyway.

Well to me there is a difference between being good and being great. personally I feel that inzamam and yousuf were a level above him.

 

[Stretch]

You said that he had performed well in SA against styen and morkel. My point was that waqar is superior to both so he will struggle. And that is only one series as well. Cant say anything about wessel again but I dont expect dilshan to last that long anyway.

Well to me there is a difference between being good and being great. personally I feel that inzamam and yousuf were a level above him.

That was about Samaraweera:

2. Samaraweera has come on leaps and bounds since his early days. The last time he played in Australia was 07 and England 11. Since then he's come to South Africa where he faced Steyn and Morkel on bouncy and pace wickets with stats: ave 67.8 with 2 centuries in a 3 match series. He's shown he can handle quick bowling by learning from his weaknesses and pure application. Again, grit. That's what my side has plenty of which yours don't. Even Khan, that you've criticized heavily, comes out fighting when the sh!t has hit the proverbial fan.

I think you just got confused at the last part where I mentioned that "Even Khan, that you've criticized heavily, comes out fighting when the sh!t has hit the proverbial fan"

No worries

 

[Red-Indian]

Good debate this guys.

The first 3 sessions seem to have gone to Stretch. At the end of Day 1, he's 270 for 2 with Amla and Khan looking well set. Dilshan went early after an ill advised Dilscoop attempt against Younis sent his middle stump crashing but since then, its been all Stretch.

MJJ really needs Steyn and Younis to come all out all guns blazing on Day 2. And then put some runs on the board.

Early days yet...I certainly hope Stretch isn't counting those chickens. He'll miss the one hiding in Amla's beard.

 

[MJJ]

That was about Samaraweera:



I think you just got confused at the last part where I mentioned that "Even Khan, that you've criticized heavily, comes out fighting when the sh!t has hit the proverbial fan"

No worries

That was two points there. The first one was about waqar and morkel comparision. the younis one stemmed from you saying that you dont score a lot of runs by being good. My fault for not multi quoting.

 

[ha_rooney]

Stretch has a very good batting line-up but I can't look past MJJ's bowling, primarily because I've seen all of them play and know how devastating they can be.

MJJ's batting is not as balanced as Stretch's but Yousuf and Trott could bat all day together and put enough runs on the board for the bowling attack to defend.

Very tough call but I'm voting for MJJ.

 

[Interval]

Jacobs is Ridley Jacobs, MJJ?

 

[Varun]

Voted for Stretch.

Was a tough call as MJJ has a superb bowling attack but Stretch's middle order is excellent. On the other hand, Stretch's bowling attack is weak but i dont like the look of MJJ's batting specially with Ganguly opening. A very good batsman that he was, he would never do well as a test opener.

 

[MJJ]

Jacobs is Ridley Jacobs, MJJ?

Yes he is.

 

[Interval]

Ganguly(C)
Atapattu
Sarwan
M.Yousuf
G. Hick
Trott
Jacobs
Ajmal
Steyn
Younis
Harmison

Openers: As mentioned Ganguly is a suspect opener. Atapattu is a solid as they come.

Middle Order: Okay. Yousuf and Sarwan, I have alot of time for. Sarwan is susceptible though. Hick is a no show for me. Supremely talented, but never really fulfilled his promise.

Lower Order: Trott is certainly better than Symonds. Again, like Stretch, batting ends abruptly with Jacobs, with noone who can really plant their bat.

Bowlers: Probably one of the best unit of fast bowlers. Swing, Reverse swing, pace, bounce. Probably the only real nitpick is the lack of a left armer. Ajmal has played too few for me to give too much impetus to him. He would be on par or lower than Herath for me.

WK: Trott is a quality keeper. Only weakness could be lack of ability to keep to Ajmal. But thats again nitpicking

Ajmal has too few tests

Balance: Batting is a bit suspect in patches, ie Hick and Jacobs. But apart from that, decent array of capabilities. Long inning players, gritters, spin players and pace players. Bowling attack is great. However, a lack of 5th and 6th bowler can be a problem if Ajmal or Harmison fail. Ganguly can chuck a few but never a real parttimer in tests.

 

[crappycraperson]

I am sorry MJJ, but Ganguly opening the innings is a very big howler for me. That just is not going to work, full stop, no matter what you try to proclaim.

This is a very tough one. I love MJJ's bowling attack, if he had one more class middle order batsmen and had not decided to open with Ganguly, I think would have defo voted for him. But right now I am bit stuck. I fancy his bowling to clean up Stretch's batting, which is too dependent on Amla playing the Dravid role of sorts IMO. I don't think 4,5,6 are that reliable despite what their records might say. But MJJ's own batting is dodgy. I don't rate either of Sarwan or Hicks. So it comes down to Attapatu, Yousuf and Trott. Trott is batting at a wrong position for me. I would rather open with him than Ganguly. He is also a slow run getter so dunno how he will cope batting with the tail. I rate Fanie a lot as well, same with Bishop at his peak. I am slightly leaning towards Stretch at this point but it is not enough.

 

[crappycraperson]

Ganguly(C)
Atapattu
Sarwan
M.Yousuf
G. Hick
Trott
Jacobs
Ajmal
Steyn
Younis
Harmison

Openers: As mentioned Ganguly is a suspect opener. Atapattu is a solid as they come.

Middle Order: Okay. Yousuf and Sarwan, I have alot of time for. Sarwan is susceptible though. Hick is a no show for me. Supremely talented, but never really fulfilled his promise.

Lower Order: Trott is certainly better than Symonds. Again, like Stretch, batting ends abruptly with Jacobs, with noone who can really plant their bat.

Bowlers: Probably one of the best unit of fast bowlers. Swing, Reverse swing, pace, bounce. Probably the only real nitpick is the lack of a left armer. Ajmal has played too few for me to give too much impetus to him. He would be on par or lower than Herath for me.

WK: Trott is a quality keeper. Only weakness could be lack of ability to keep to Ajmal. But thats again nitpicking

Ajmal has too few tests

Balance: Batting is a bit suspect in patches, ie Hick and Jacobs. But apart from that, decent array of capabilities. Long inning players, gritters, spin players and pace players. Bowling attack is great. However, a lack of 5th and 6th bowler can be a problem if Ajmal or Harmison fail. Ganguly can chuck a few but never a real parttimer in tests.

Trott is not the keeper, jacobs is

 

[Interval]

Head to Head

BOWLING
- Stretch has more variety to his bowling. Including part timers, he has essentially 7 players who can bowl, which adds to his bowling depth. MJJ has only 4

- MJJ's quickies are superior as a unit. Though Stretch's aren't all that bad. However, MJJ's bowlers get you pulsating as potential match winners. I'd say Bishop, Lee and De Villiers would be the 2nd best fast bowling unit which is a shame that he had to meet the best.

- Both spinners are okay or null.

BATTING

- Both opening units are strong and steady. People penalising Ganguly doesn't work for me because in his prime, he could just work his way round the short stuff. Its not like he just couldn't face bouncers.

- Stretch's middle order is stronger, definitely. MJJ should've done better than Hick.

- Both lower orders are really nothing to speak off because I neither tail wagging. MJJ shades it due to Trott.

WK
- MJJ certainly takes this one by having an established keeper

Fielding
MJJ's fielding is suspect. It really is.

The way I think this plays out...
Frankly, if the pitch had any inconsistencies favouring either batsman or bowlers, this would be an easy decision. On a fair pitch, this is extremely hard.

The way I see this is MJJ bats first and scores 300-350. Stretch's batting loses early wickets to a fearsome attack and is reeling at 45-3 but some mi8ddle order guy steadies things and pips them to 320. MJJ then struggles against varied attack and a 3rd/ 4th day wicket to barely cross 270. Can stretch's team make 310 in the last inning with 1.5 days to spare.