Redcafe Champions League Draft Semi Final - Gio v Fergus

Who will win based on players in their prime, team tactics, balance & bench strength?

  • Total voters
    31
  • Poll closed .
Makelele is probably the best person to try and stop Rivaldo, of course Rivaldo may get a little change out of him, but by that token Ronaldo will from Zanetti (Zanetti struggled against quick players more than anything, remember Henry tearing him a new one?) and Messi will certainly get lots of joy from Zambrotta, especially with only Vidic covering him.

I think Vidic may struggle in this game, covering his flank and having Batigol worry about. Batigol troubled better defenders than Vidic, Stam springs to mind, so I expect hi. To have an impact in this game too.
 
Zanetti will be fine against Ronaldo. We're talking about one of the greatest full-backs of all time here. Arsenal's 5-1 win against Inter? We're not going to play the school playground tactics Inter employed, which was, in effect, throwing everyone up the park and leaving Henry on his own on the half-way line. Every goal was on the counter attack against a gung-ho and poor Inter team with Zanetti essentially left stranded to deal with the best counter-attacking unit to come out of England in decades. More of an issue will be what Ronaldo won't do when he's not got the ball and Zanetti starts to influence play the way he can. I can't see him or Messi making much contribution to the midfield battle leaving your team under-manned.

As for Vidic, he's a good fit for this game and matches up well to Batistuta. And we've got the best defender on the park to cover should he be required. What isn't a good fit though is Samuel and Ayala against Romario, with Rivaldo, Nedved and Ronaldinho tearing through in support.
 
Messi's passing alone makes enough of a contribution to the midfield battle IMO, I'd say he and Scholes are probably the best possession players on the pitch despite the illustrious company, and I'd also say Thuram is the best defender on the pitch. My team has tremendous counter attack ability too, we have the quality from deep in midfield to pick out a trio of Messi/Ronaldo/Batistuta, Bati and in particular Messi are capable of picking out those passes themselves and if your suggesting Zanetti and Zambrotta are going to be attacking influences then those oppurtunities will arise.

I think I have the better and more consistent goal scoring threats and I have a midfield to suit them, all of them are capable of playing from deep to allow for the special talents of Ronaldo and Messi.
 
Why Silva instead of Fab Gio?

Have you considered bringing Fab on, I don't see a huge central threat than Mauro is dealing with and Cesc's passing would be a joy with those attackers

The only potential issue is that people have forgot his Arsenal days and don't see him as a CM anymore, but judging by the Fabregas transfer thread most people know he's fine in a midfield two. The Fabregas of Arsenal was absolutely exceptional there
 
Voted for Gio, solid defensive spine with complementary partnerships of Vidic-Ferdinand and Vieira-Mauro Silva (who I rate), and exceptional attacking combination in Ronaldinho, Rivaldo and Nedved
Sorry Fergus
 
Fergus' son said:
I also think that I have better passers in deeper areas of my team. With Makelele on Rivaldo, it leaves Scholes/Bastian in comparison to Mauro/Viera. My two are the more progressive passers and can find my attackers at will. Imagine Scholes and Bastian having the option of Ronaldo and Messi either side to ping the ball out to, we are all aware of Scholes doing it for Utd (the link with Ronaldo here will help) and Bastian did it very successfully last year with Ribery and Robben.
Click to expand...

This is a good point, one that I think is crucial to the dynamics of this game. Thinking about possession (not tiki taka like but keeping it, probing, changing tack and trying again) I think half of your front 5 could work well (you have the CM for it but a lot would go on individualistic efforts) while in his case it is his CMs that set him back.

Aboutreika18 said:
You can't have Messi and Ronaldo playing to full potential in the same side, one of those will have to play a peripheral role IMO or you will be exposed on the wings, which you kind of already are with Ronaldo's lack of tracking back.
Click to expand...

NM said:
Agree with this.. But then Nedved probably won't get much of the ball in Gio's team. Ronaldinho and Rivaldo are much more demanding.. Surprisingly, I would love to watch Gio's team play in real life a lot more than Fergus'. Still both top teams though.
Click to expand...

Same here, probably same reason. Gio's front four would probably do something more elaborate and :drool:worthy while Fergus strikes me as a collection of moments of brilliance. The problem for Gio is there are many in the tank.
 
Theon said:
I think Cesc possibly could have started here

I see Makelele as being way too occupied with the movement of Rivaldo/Ronaldinho/Nedved who will all be getting into that space in front on Samuel and Ayala for him to ever vacate it and push up into midfield.

Makelele is surely playing as a very clear DM in this game, he needs to, and I can see Fergus' team sitting quite deep

Due to that I think Cesc/Viera is more than capable of controlling the middle against Schweinsteiger/Scholes and I would love to see Cesc's passing linking up with those forwards.

It's close though, I can see why Gio has opted for the extra stability of Mauro but Fergus doesn't really have a player operating in the hole that I can see, unlike Rivaldo on his team. So I don't think that central defensive stability is as important as it is for Fergus, and Cesc's passing range would give a new dimension to Gio's attack
Click to expand...

Christ, hadn't checked subs. feck yeah! Flavour of the month or little remembered WC-winner? Gio, see post above, reckon it's not just marketing reasons calling for it.
 
antohan said:
This is a good point, one that I think is crucial to the dynamics of this game. Thinking about possession (not tiki taka like but keeping it, probing, changing tack and trying again) I think half of your front 5 could work well (you have the CM for it but a lot would go on individualistic efforts) while in his case it is his CMs that set him back.





Same here, probably same reason. Gio's front four would probably do something more elaborate and :drool:worthy while Fergus strikes me as a collection of moments of brilliance. The problem for Gio is there are many in the tank.
Click to expand...


I think the fact that they can sit deep and still affect the play with thier passing will go some way to account for the CBs relative lack of pace.


Polaroid said:
Voted for Gio, solid defensive spine with complementary partnerships of Vidic-Ferdinand and Vieira-Mauro Silva (who I rate), and exceptional attacking combination in Ronaldinho, Rivaldo and Nedved
Sorry Fergus
Click to expand...

No probs mate.




If we are considering how Messi would fare against Vidic/Rio/Zambrotta, then maybe think back to the 09 CL final in which Messi played in off the right, and got himself on the scoresheet.
 
Fergus' defence is a little weak but I think his team could clinch it. Even against world class defenders, there's no stopping that fire power and the midfield's strong enough to deliver service.
 
You know it's a tight game when both managers haven't voted to avoid gaining an imaginary advantage. That sort of shit actually weighs. I reckon Fergus got the upper hand getting the first post on this page while Gio's at the end of the first page will probably not be read half as much. It sounds ridiculous but those little things can get the marginal vote.
 
Fergus' son said:
I think the fact that they can sit deep and still affect the play with thier passing will go some way to account for the CBs relative lack of pace.
Click to expand...

That's a good point too as you can reduce the space between the lines for Gio while I mainly see your attackers thriving in acres of space rather than interlinking. Again, I see far more scope for the latter in Gio's attack but they are lacking the passer in midfield. It's like he is somewhat broken in the transition, while you are not. I reckon the key to this game is Gio swapping Vieira and Mauro Silva and him leaving the pitch for Fabregas.
 
Theon said:
Why Silva instead of Fab Gio?

Have you considered bringing Fab on, I don't see a huge central threat than Mauro is dealing with and Cesc's passing would be a joy with those attackers

The only potential issue is that people have forgot his Arsenal days and don't see him as a CM anymore, but judging by the Fabregas transfer thread most people know he's fine in a midfield two. The Fabregas of Arsenal was absolutely exceptional there
Click to expand...

I wanted to start the game on a solid footing to close out any midfield threat. But as you said Fergus'son's midfield three aren't posing that kind of in-the-hole threat and Vieira and Fabregas are a robust enough midfield pair to deal with it in any case.
 
776156_Brazil.jpg
 
Can't help but feel people are being too smart by voting against the team with comfortably the two best players of the generation.
 
Feeky_Magee said:
Can't help but feel people are being too smart by voting against the team with comfortably the two best players of the generation.
Click to expand...

It's fair to say Messi is the greatest since Maradona but I'm less convinced about the case for Cristiano Ronaldo being way ahead of the rest. Ronaldo, Ronaldinho and Rivaldo all hit slightly higher peaks in my book and, while Cristiano has sustained productivity in his favour, this isn't a longevity competition.
 
Opinions and all that innit but I think Ronaldo hit a greater height with his 60-goal season than any of the other 3 R's ever did, as great and all as they were.
 
Vieira has never been pure DM, he has always played with a holding midfielder beside him, Gilberto at Arsenal and Makelele for France, playing him now up against Messi who can roam inside, plus Scholes is suicidal IMO. Muller is to come on to replace Bastian, less grit is needed in the centre with Mauro gone and Mullers runs from the right will cause huge problems for Vidic and Zambrotta.
 
Fergus' son said:
Vieira has never been pure DM, he has always played with a holding midfielder beside him, Gilberto at Arsenal and Makelele for France, playing him now up against Messi who can roam inside, plus Scholes is suicidal IMO. Muller is to come on to replace Bastian, less grit is needed in the centre with Mauro gone and Mullers runs from the right will cause huge problems for Vidic and Zambrotta.
Click to expand...

Not right on Vieira insofar as he's also spent much of his career alongside all-rounders like Petit and Deschamps.
 
He played with both of those together, highlighting my point, he had Deschamps to do the dirty work next to him, then Gilberto and Makelele, never has he really been the only DM against such quality of opposition and to make him so now, vs Messi, Muller and Scholes, is a bad move.

Vieira, Rio and And Vidic makes the bulk of your defence now, with little other protection, is that enough against Messi/Ronaldo/Batigol? I don't think so..
 
I know you don't rate Zambrotta much, but Zanetti deserves to be right there with Vieira, Rio and Vidic if you are going to list Ronaldo.
 
In terms of defensive effort, I've got Patrick Vieira, Cesc Fabregas and Pavel Nedved putting in a proper shift, whereas you've got Makelele, Scholes and arguably Muller. I'd also fancy Rivaldo to put more in than either Messi or Ronaldo.
 
BTW, Fergus, I'm ignoring it but you should consider looking at the aesthetic side of that teamsheet. I get the point of it, but the wonkiness and the two CMs so tight in the middle makes it less attractive. Gio would know, every time he acknowledges an inside forward by dragging him in the non-symmetry screws him. One of those odd non-footballing reasons that affect voting.
 
Good switch from Gio, see his side flowing much better that way. I like Fergus' response in terms of improving the attack but if Makelele is still onto Rivaldo like a rash his midfield has got quite weak and less able to control the game and play from deep, which was a strong point in his previous setup.

I have a feeling the first half was Fergus' and the second half will be Gio's.

Out of interest, who would you pick going forward?
 
It's a tough one. I agree with the notion that Messi and Ronaldo in the same side is overkill, one of them will be less effective than usual, they need players to set chances up for them.

On the other hand, Gio's team has one too many creative playmakers who love the ball. In my opinion swapping Ronaldo for either Rivaldo or Ronaldinho would actually make both teams stronger.
 
Went for Gio in the end. Think Romario will be the difference in this one. His movement and speed will torment Ayala and and particularly Samuel and I can see him getting a couple. Think Gio's side is fairly well equipped to deal with Fergus' considerable attacking threats
 
OP's updated with the subs

Just 4 votes in this one
 
Voted Fergus.

I reckon the first part of this game (over a half) he was better set up defending deep, with Makelele, Schwein and Scholes leaving little space for Gio's AMs to operate in and with credible outballs for a mouthwatering counter. On the other hand, Gio looked broken in the middle of the park. I couldn't see a clear transition to the attacking phase except via individual efforts by Zanetti, Nedved (in particular) dropping deep and the odd Vieira charge.

One side had the right platform for what would mostly be individual efforts, while the other had individual efforts trying to create a platform. I favour the former, particularly with Cristiano and Messi there. Even when the ball gets up there to Gio's AMs the thought of them having to fall back on the DMs frightens me against a side which would be so good on the counter, a particular Vieira pass springs to mind :devil:

2-0 or 3-1 there (took me ages to wrap my head around it though).

At some point in the second half Gio resolves the issue and, along with it, Fergus becomes MORE attacking. I love that front four but playing it required destroying the defensive setup which was being so effective. Now Fergus is under enormous pressure and the one looking broken with Makelele -tied up fully with defensive duties and the least comfortable midfielder on the ball- leaving Scholes stranded as the only outlet. Pressure on Scholes and the supply dries up quite rapidly. I figure Muller would end up dropping back and end up playing what Bastian was playing but Bastian being more adept at it.

It would be enough to sustain the goal difference or see it marginally affected.

2-1, 3-2 or draw at best for Gio.
 
Congrats Gio. For the record, although I ultimately had you down to lose this, I reckon you were better placed to win the final. Right pair of fullbacks for it and better CB pair to go up against Ronaldo-Shevchenko. Upfront you could be as effective as Fergus. I'd be mindful of the midfield battle, any of the pairs you went for here could have a very hard time.

I'm not sure Cristiano-Messi would give you as big an upgrade as what you could need in midfield. Not sure Scholes or Schweinsteiger are the answer though, Scholes would have Fab's defensive lightweight issues and Schweinsteiger may be punching above his weight. Or not. It's the sort of decision that could give Theon a ten vote lead straight off the bat though: no Messi/Ronaldo pick? :eek: :lol:
 
Maldini-Nesta would be much more suited to dealing with Romario though, you would probably lose the game on that alone. Messi IMO.
 
I don't expect to win the final tbh, Gio's team has been my favourite all the way through - along with EDogen originally but Gio's upgrades were all bang on the money

It's the most balanced side I've seen, which annoyingly is my sides best strength if I have that De Rossi/Gattuso/Pirlo base. But then not only is it balanced he has a front four of

-------------- Romario ---------
Ronaldinho--Rivaldo--Ronaldo/Messi

Just insane!

I think it would have been easier against Fergus for a few reasons, but the fullbacks are a lot better for me to go up against. Thuram is after Maldini the best defensive fullback of the last 20 odd years, but that isn't a threat to the diamond - Zanetti is though.
 
Sorry people, it's impossible for me to contribute anything more than this post today, or the next 7 or so days in fact, so its probably a blessing that I'm now out. Congrats Gio, drafted the best out of everyone so you deserve to be in the final. I'm not sure how you will fare though, if theon has Nesta and Maldini then it will be hard. You probably can't turn down Messi but like Anto says yours midfield could be perhaps improved, I wouldn't be confident with Rio/Vidic either and Romario against those CBs so lots to think about.

Anto, I had only one choice in mind, Zanetti.
 
antohan said:
Voted Fergus.

I reckon the first part of this game (over a half) he was better set up defending deep, with Makelele, Schwein and Scholes leaving little space for Gio's AMs to operate in and with credible outballs for a mouthwatering counter. On the other hand, Gio looked broken in the middle of the park. I couldn't see a clear transition to the attacking phase except via individual efforts by Zanetti, Nedved (in particular) dropping deep and the odd Vieira charge.

One side had the right platform for what would mostly be individual efforts, while the other had individual efforts trying to create a platform. I favour the former, particularly with Cristiano and Messi there. Even when the ball gets up there to Gio's AMs the thought of them having to fall back on the DMs frightens me against a side which would be so good on the counter, a particular Vieira pass springs to mind :devil:

2-0 or 3-1 there (took me ages to wrap my head around it though).

At some point in the second half Gio resolves the issue and, along with it, Fergus becomes MORE attacking. I love that front four but playing it required destroying the defensive setup which was being so effective. Now Fergus is under enormous pressure and the one looking broken with Makelele -tied up fully with defensive duties and the least comfortable midfielder on the ball- leaving Scholes stranded as the only outlet. Pressure on Scholes and the supply dries up quite rapidly. I figure Muller would end up dropping back and end up playing what Bastian was playing but Bastian being more adept at it.

It would be enough to sustain the goal difference or see it marginally affected.

2-1, 3-2 or draw at best for Gio.
Click to expand...

Nice summary by the way.
 
Theon, I really would hate to be one of your players, you've been underrating them throughout this competition.

Where's the old Theon who so passionately argued that width was not the only way to win games? You kept banging on about all sorts of sides which were successful without playing the more pleasing 4-2-3-1 formation. Your side is better than any of those, miles better.

I've never been a fan of diamonds, never voted for one that I remember in the previous drafts, yet the side below would very likely beat any of the previous winning sides, and I even include my star-studded All-time one in that.

Look at it, appreciate it.

775084_AC_Milan.jpg
Christ on a bike.​
 
You must log in or register to reply here.