Theon's team is just perfectly balanced. Plus heaps of his players are playing in the formation and position they know best and with partners they've played with.
Redcafe Champions League Draft QF4 - Theon v Thisistheone
- Thread starter Theon
- Start date
I hated voting against a team with Ronaldo, Figo, Carlos and Essien. Sorry TITO. It was a close one
You're scratching the barrel there.
That Milan side is one of the best teams of the last 20 years, losing to Liverpool doesn't change that.
Fair enough if you think that, it is always to risk when going for a diamond.
If you think that then I can't ever see you voting for one though because you're not going to find one with more width.
1) Cafu and Candela are out and out wingbacks, they aren't fullbacks and they both provided the width in a wingerless Roma side that won Serie A.
2) Iniesta drifts wide all the time, he has a free role here to go left or right depending on where the space is - the same way Kaka did
3) Shevchenko runs the channels - he did this exact role for Milan behind Inzaghi and became the best striker in the world in the process. Milan dominated Europe and didn't suffer from a lack of width.
Cafu, Candela, Iniesta and Shevchenko is plenty to stretch the game. But clearly the real strength is in the middle, as with all diamonds.
A few thoughts:
Again a well crafted diamond from Theon: it will exercise control of the middle of the park and be hard to unpick through the centre.
While I think Theon has a bit more quality across the board, tactically TITO is well set up to counter it. Specifically, Carlos and Alves could be vulnerable against a direct opponent, but the diamond enables them to do what they do best: move forward to support the attack. And in that role there are very few better in any era.
I'd prefer to see Figo up directly against Candela. There's a mismatch in quality there that Di Maria isn't necessarily exploiting, while his tendency to cut inside will play into Maldini and De Rossi's hands. Neither on the other hand would be able to do anything about Figo's ability to outstrip Candela on the touchline and whip an early ball in to Ronaldo.
Again a well crafted diamond from Theon: it will exercise control of the middle of the park and be hard to unpick through the centre.
While I think Theon has a bit more quality across the board, tactically TITO is well set up to counter it. Specifically, Carlos and Alves could be vulnerable against a direct opponent, but the diamond enables them to do what they do best: move forward to support the attack. And in that role there are very few better in any era.
I'd prefer to see Figo up directly against Candela. There's a mismatch in quality there that Di Maria isn't necessarily exploiting, while his tendency to cut inside will play into Maldini and De Rossi's hands. Neither on the other hand would be able to do anything about Figo's ability to outstrip Candela on the touchline and whip an early ball in to Ronaldo.
What about getting thrashed by Deportivo then?
It was a very hard to beat side but once a team found out their weak spot they did get hurt pretty badly. I do find them overrated when talked in the context of the greatest teams of their generation, considering they never really dominated the league as much as the other powerhouses of the same generation have.
It was a very hard to beat side but once a team found out their weak spot they did get hurt pretty badly. I do find them overrated when talked in the context of the greatest teams of their generation, considering they never really dominated the league as much as the other powerhouses of the same generation have.
Echo what Gio just said. I'm puzzled that Figo's been put up against Cafu instead of exploiting the weaker of the two fullbacks. Di maria on either flanks isn't going to be the difference maker in this game.
I think TITO should maybe consider switching Figo and Di Maria. I preferred both on the other side to what is shown. Would use the full width of the pitch a bit more and get more crosses into the box. Also for the reason Gio has highlighted above
Excellent post, it does seem like Tito full backs will affect this game more than thier counterparts. A counter involving Figo/DiMaria and Carlos/Alves doubling up is going to be very very dangerous, if Theons CBs are pulled out wide to cover then Ronaldo will get the little space he needs to cause damage.
I'm tempted to opt for Tito, in close games like this you look at the players you think will have that bit of magic to make the difference, and I see a little bit more in Titos team. Ronaldo, Figo and Di Maria are players who commit defenders and can bypass someone with thier trickiness, theon has Iniesta and perhaps Sheva (uses his pace to outstrip opponents more than anything). Only thing that hasn't stopped me from voting just yet is the nagging feeling that Iniesta isn't being appropriately dealt with, I like Titos CBs but if Iniesta has a particularly large amount of space then he and Shev will combine and score. Stop Iniesta and it would be game over IMO.
Mentioned this to theon already but he should've got someone else in instead of Xavi, scandalous that's he's sitting on the bench and I think there were players that he could've picked that would've greatly increased his chances in this game.
I don't think it counters it well at all, a 4-5-1 with wingers and a DM that occupies Iniesta would be countering it, but here Iniesta is free to do whatever he likes with no one picking him up.
If Carlos and Alves commit too often that plays right into Iniesta and Shevchenko's hands, they would just occupy that space. You can't leave Crespo/Iniesta/Shevchenko against two centre backs so I see the wingbacks needing to defend a lot anyway.
Don't forget unlike Maldini/Thaigo Silva facing one striker, Desailly and Blanc are facing two. You can't just keep sending fullbacks forward against two strikers of that quality, especially because Iniesta is there to join in.
@ Gio, Cutch, Aldo, Fergus:- I spent a fair amount of time debating about Figo and Di Maria swapping, having Figo up against Candela. In the end it was the Real Madrid connection that swung it, Roberto Carlos - Luis Figo - Ronaldo down the one flank. Unstoppable when in full flow. But I take your point and I'm considering switching them soon... once we approach the half time mark
Theon, my formation is a 4231/4-5-1 with wingers and with Sousa as the DM. (Call it what you like) Gio is correct, my side counters yours perfectly. My wingbacks are key, the main reason Roberto Carlos was selected ahead of Lizarazu is because I knew I was playing you.
What are you talking about - that is a 4-2-3-1 if I ever saw one.BD/NM played a 4-5-1, with three central midfielders. You are playing two centre mids.
No worries mate, it obviously is a close match and if I were the neutral, would find it difficult to vote. But I'd vote team Tito, just
TITO the most dangerous of your players is Ronaldo who is against Maldini, whereas Iniesta is against no one. I am not saying Maldini will definitely win that battle, but he has a heck of a good chance and far more chance of stopping him than you do Iniesta.
Ronaldo said himself - "I always found it very difficult when I came up against Paolo Maldini. He was the best defender I faced over the course of my career. He definitely deserved to win the award [FIFA World Player of The Year] several times over."
Sousa isn't close to being good enough to stop Iniesta if he was marking him - but he isn't even doing that. He is in midfield with Essien trying to stop Pirlo/De Rossi/Gattuso
Ronaldo said himself - "I always found it very difficult when I came up against Paolo Maldini. He was the best defender I faced over the course of my career. He definitely deserved to win the award [FIFA World Player of The Year] several times over."
Sousa isn't close to being good enough to stop Iniesta if he was marking him - but he isn't even doing that. He is in midfield with Essien trying to stop Pirlo/De Rossi/Gattuso
It's not just about Ronaldo v Maldini and Iniesta v Sousa though. There's XI v XI out there and as a whole, I'm better suited against your diamond.
You're making your players sound like Gods. Gattuso and Pirlo sound invincible, yet we've seen two high profile beatings they've taken v Liverpool and Depo. Iniesta isn't unstoppable. Against Inter in the CL semi 2nd leg, Cambiasso stopped him and Sousa is a better player, with Essien alongside him.
You're making your players sound like Gods. Gattuso and Pirlo sound invincible, yet we've seen two high profile beatings they've taken v Liverpool and Depo. Iniesta isn't unstoppable. Against Inter in the CL semi 2nd leg, Cambiasso stopped him and Sousa is a better player, with Essien alongside him.
It's an interesting thought. Were that Milan team of 2005-2008 truely great? They won one CL title. At a time in history when Barca, Bayern and Utd were in transition. The poorest Liverpool side of recent times beat them, and Milan never dominated their league (which wasn't the strongest league in the world)
1) On the first point - You aren't best placed to counter the diamond, a 4-5-1 is. Here you are leaving my attacking midfielder completely unmarked. If you want to put Sousa on Iniesta he should be in defensive midfield but he's not, he is partnering Essien in a two man midfield behind a number 10 in Rui Costa - it is a clear 4-2-3-1.
2) The second paragraph is pointless. Of course 2003-2007 Milan lost some games.. Same with Italy in the Euro 2012 Final getting thrashed by Spain, it happens. Doesn't change the fact that Italy had a great tournament and De Rossi and Pirlo were two of the best players in the whole thing.
Same with the Iniesta comment, of course he has been stopped before - so has Xavi, Scholes, Pirlo whoever. It doesn't take anything away from them as players.
2003-2007 Milan
They won two Champions League's and reached the final in another out of five years.
I raised the point simply to point out that your players aren't Gods. They can be beaten, and my lads are getting badly under-rated, sadly. Essien's prime has gone and Pirlo's stock raised ten-fold after Euro 2012.
I think I can win this but it's going to be tough looking at the voting so far.
Just because my image shows the Sousa-Essien next to each other, that doesn't mean they're stuck there. It's clear as day that Sousa is the holding, defensive player and Essien the box-to-box.
I think I can win this but it's going to be tough looking at the voting so far.
Just because my image shows the Sousa-Essien next to each other, that doesn't mean they're stuck there. It's clear as day that Sousa is the holding, defensive player and Essien the box-to-box.
Milan 2003 didn't play a Diamond.
Yes they did
---------- Pirlo ---
Gattuso ----- Seedorf
------ Rui Costa -----
-- Sheva -- Inzaghi --
Edit - here is the line up for the 2003 Champions League Final
We're getting pedantic now, as that is a 4312. Either way, very defensive. A common Italian mentality, pack the centre of the pitch. Luckily I have the width with Roberto Carlos-Figo-Dani Alves-Di Maria to open you up, like Fran or Victor or more recently Bale. Serie A sides tend to struggle against width/good wingers. That's why even when Juv were beating us in the 90's, Giggs always caused them huge problems.
Here's that Depo team that beat Milan 4-0. Same set-up as mine but I have the likes of Ronaldo, Figo, Essien, Rui Costa, Roberto Carlos, Dani Alves, Desailly etc
It's a diamond, which is quite often called a 4-3-1-2 anyway as they are virtually the same.
Pirlo played as a deep lying playmaker behind Gattuso and Seedorf - you obviously know this because you have seen that side play. He would drop deep and pick up the ball from the centre backs and then dictate the game from there
Well they often played 4-3-2-1 with Shevchenko, Tomasson or Rivaldo dropping off alongside Rui. I wouldn't necessarily call it a diamond but the principles (narrow midfield, control of the centre) are fundamentally the same.
Milan also got a tad lucky that the best player in the world, Nedved, was suspended in the 2003 final. Not saying that they would have lost but it did make a huge difference obviously and considering it ended 0-0 that could have well been a difference. Then the epic choking in 2005.
Man don't I seem to hate that team.
Man don't I seem to hate that team.
Fair enough, 4321 - Diamond pretty much the same thing. I agree. Fact remains, my width, the set-up. Perfect to clip Theon's wings and watch that Diamond sink like a stone. See Deportivo graphic.
Milan also got a tad lucky that the best player in the world, Nedved, was suspended in the 2003 final. Not saying that they would have lost but it did make a huge difference obviously and considering it ended 0-0 that could have well been a difference. Then the epic choking in 2005.
Man don't I seem to hate that team.
Ha! Well it's obvious, we all agree that Milan side was superb. But in drafts like these we go to the micro-details and scratch beyond the surface and I think you're right, that Milan side was not the best ever and very beatable if you knew how to.
They also played a 4-1-4-1 as a means of cramming in the wealth of attacking midfielders they had at their disposal.
Gio, I know this may sound like I'm clutching at straws here but bare with me. In regards to Iniesta, if he was to replace say, Thomasson or Kaka in that Milan set-up around this time (2003-2007) before that new off-side rule came into play and opened up space between the lines for smaller players, do you think he'd be AS good in that set-up as what we've seen for Barca in his 433?
I'd say both managers are being equally pedantic about each others formation IMO. IMO, of course the Milan team that theon is referring to is very similar to his diamond, but also I'm not seeing the huge difference between the 451/4231 that Theons bringing up, particularly when there's a player like Rui Costa in the middle, a very adaptable midfielder who'll make the slightest differences in formations seem non existent.
One thing about Iniesta, started his career as a DM! What a fecking player, he'll do more to stop Sousa than Rui costa will to stop Pirlo, but Pirlo will also struggle to stop Rui costa more than Sousa will Iniesta...
This is a conundrum for me. I want to vote early too because I wouldn't want to make a crucial late vote that could swing it either way in a tight game like this but I'm stuck at the moment..
One thing about Iniesta, started his career as a DM! What a fecking player, he'll do more to stop Sousa than Rui costa will to stop Pirlo, but Pirlo will also struggle to stop Rui costa more than Sousa will Iniesta...
This is a conundrum for me. I want to vote early too because I wouldn't want to make a crucial late vote that could swing it either way in a tight game like this but I'm stuck at the moment..
Iniesta was a DM? Never knew that. Hard to imagine given his size and frame. What do you think about that Depotivo formation Fergus? Same set-up as mine, caused Milan every problem imaginable.
Well there would be a couple of issues, namely that Kaka, Tomasson and Inzaghi were relied on for their goal threat and Iniesta wouldn't properly replace it. Secondly, none of that holy trinity of Messi, Xavi and Iniesta would play as well outside of Barcelona, particularly alongside players with different qualities. Ultimately though it's Iniesta we're talking about and he'd slip in there in much the same brilliant way as Zidane did for Juventus.
I agree with virtually all of that.
My point on Sousa though is that he can only do one thing, he's not going to take Iniesta out of the game AND somehow win a midfield battle or stop Pirlo controlling the game. He is either a defensive midfielder operating in Iniesta territory or a centre mid getting involves in the midfield battle. If he is dropping deep and covering Iniesta then that leaves Essien to handle that Italy midfield by himself - no chance.
And he is also apparently covering the channels for Shevchenko
Also a very big factor is that Essien isn't playing in a system that will get the best out of him.
Essien played a box to box role at Chelsea with Makelele and then Mikel sitting. Chelsea tried to use Essien as a holding midfielder and it didn't work - they moved him out of the position and back into CM with a midfield partner and a DM behind him.
Here he needs to play a very disciplined role - he is out manned, out passed and facing two of the best midfielders of the generation in Iniesta and Pirlo. He was never a holding player but TITO has him helping out against Iniesta and Shevchenko which was never his game.
Essien played a box to box role at Chelsea with Makelele and then Mikel sitting. Chelsea tried to use Essien as a holding midfielder and it didn't work - they moved him out of the position and back into CM with a midfield partner and a DM behind him.
Here he needs to play a very disciplined role - he is out manned, out passed and facing two of the best midfielders of the generation in Iniesta and Pirlo. He was never a holding player but TITO has him helping out against Iniesta and Shevchenko which was never his game.
You keep ignoring that fact that your Italian midfield need to man the channels as well. They'll be so busy with my wide players that Sousa-Essien can handle the middle.
Decent point but I wouldnt overplay it too much really, don't know how much you can read into it. I'm sure if theon tries hard enough he can find instances of a diamond beating a formation like yours. Th first leg was 4-1 in Milans favour rignt?
Really don't think it proves that your formation is suited to counter Theons, even though that's a point I am finding myself agreeing with. Haven't really heard how the threat of Carlos and Alves is going to be nullified, looks like your best weapon right now.
True, such a great player. But a good point I was wondering about, and that's the lack of goal threat. The tip of a diamond is a hard position to master. Need a natural goal scorer there.
True, but then my side is much stronger than that Depo team. Ronaldo - R.Carlos, Figo - D.Alves, Di Maria could all do so much damage here.
About your first point, I was trying to convince theon to take Totti and not just because I didn't want him to take Xavi! I would've liked Shev, Iniesta and Totti as a front three much much more. I understand he didn't want to pick up two strikers when Ronaldo was going to become available though, but I think it would've made this tricky tie against you a lot easier.