I know 
All I wanted was something to entertain me during lunch
All I wanted was something to entertain me during lunch
Redcafe Champions League Draft QF2 - Ralaks v EDogen
- Thread starter Theon
- Start date
Come again? Was that discussed in the draft thread at any point? Or are you referring to some PM conversation? In that case maybe some read it that way from the outset and never found out about the various changes.
I thought it had been something you introduced after the first draft finished, it had been on throughout the reinforcement round, and then you deleted it because it looked well dodgy to be changing the rules halfway through.
Comms! No rule editing without comms!
No man, PM conversation - when I wrote it up on my laptop
I'm the golden goose of the fixtures. Everyone has their eyes on non CL winner Ronaldo
So, when did that rule get inserted in the op?
- Before drafting
- With drafting already proceeding
- After first draft and before reinforcements
Like I said above, it came in properly to the OP at the start of the first round
I'm the golden goose of the fixtures. Everyone has their eyes on non CL winner Ronaldo
I know mate, must feel great
I dunno why I am even arguing for this rule considering I drew you, so much aggro
Basically I agree with Anto in this. I've picked my team based on that 4 non-CL winners criterion and don't really think it should be changed because one manager hasn't future-proofed their team based on the rules we collectively understood at the start.
I'm the golden goose of the fixtures. Everyone has their eyes on non CL winner Ronaldo
Of course! I would! I spent the entire All-Time game crossing my fingers to get whoever had Ronaldo and Maradona. I hated it when you drew KM, whichever of you two went through one of Ronaldo or Maradona would leave the competition. It was "O Fenómeno"
.You do realise you have a massive emerging sentiment to draw upon for your game? "Let's get rid of Theon and his rule changes (aka brown envelopes)".
Of course! I would! I spent the entire All-Time game crossing my fingers to get whoever had Ronaldo and Maradona. I hated it when you drew KM, whichever of you two went through one of Ronaldo or Maradona would leave the competition. It was "O Fenómeno"
You do realise you have a massive emerging sentiment to draw upon for your game? "Let's get rid of Theon and his rule changes (aka brown envelopes)".
But I don't even benefit from the rule change
TITO would though, so would most apart from Gio
Not just that, you cornered the market for top quality non-CL winners:
Gio: 1. Rivaldo 2. Nedved ... 5. Fabregas 6. Zambrotta 7. Montero 8. Joaquin 9. Owen 10. Mauro Silva 11. Taffarel 12. Makaay ... 14. Vieira
Seems to me you went beyond future-proofing and actually decided to lead them all up shit-creek
You can't say it's a rule change if it was present during the beginning of the draft (which is the time most people read the entire OP). If someone like Edogen actually took that into consideration when making his picks then it would be unfair.
But I don't even benefit from the rule change
TITO would though, so would most apart from Gio
Ronaldo replaces Crespo, also a non-CL winner. Going forward you have Ronaldo and Candela as definite starters, De Rossi hinders your conversion into Barca (which would be a terrible idea IMO) and Thiago Silva, well, Nesta next to Paolo would be infinitely better.
In fact, if you went through and played EDogen you would be pretty screwed for upgrades while with this change you would get a dream ticket of Nesta-Maldini.
Not saying you have thought that through though, just that you should drop the "it doesn't benefit me".
What Theon is saying is that it wasn't. He had it in some draft rules he discussed with someone via PM but dropped it before starting the thread. That is, that comment was irrelevant. The rule got introduced after drafting started and thus after the majority of teams had worked out their gameplans.
Great. So it entirely depends on when you happened to read the OP. I referred to the OP before the second round of drafting and saw it in there. Didn't end up influencing my picks since I didn't have much choice, but it could have easily influenced others.
Basically Theon shouldn't have added/deleted it without announcing it in the thread!
Well this went complicated.. but if the majority says no to the rule, well it is only a draft.. I´m fine with whatever.
So we just carry on as we are then, is the popular view. 4 non winners all the way?
Yes, he should have, of course. Shit happens though.
Fact is though, if anyone read the op only after the draft (like you did) then they quite rightly should be in trouble anyway. The time to read the op and drafting rules surely is at the start, and at the start the rule wasn't there.
Just for clarification, I'm pissing about with the brown envelope stuff. I'm 100% clear Theon didn't have anything but the best interests of the competition at heart.
The reason it all came up was actually that he had asked my opinion on his reinforcement picks and I told him off for losing the plot and not leaving any room for eventually getting someone like Nesta or Ferdinand for Thiago. That's when he mentioned this rule.
I told him I hadn't seen it before, he explained how it came about, so I asked if everyone had been told, no one had, and then he had a mini-meltdown realising the repercussions... I thought deleting it without discussion wasn't a great idea, but there was merit in that maybe no one had ever read it to begin with.
It's basically a feckup and no more than that. I clarify this as he has just offered me to take over his team, which I don't think does anything to address the problem other than show he is sorry about it all.
Let's stick to the plan, 4 non-CL. EDogen is fine with it, so let's drop it.
The reason it all came up was actually that he had asked my opinion on his reinforcement picks and I told him off for losing the plot and not leaving any room for eventually getting someone like Nesta or Ferdinand for Thiago. That's when he mentioned this rule.
I told him I hadn't seen it before, he explained how it came about, so I asked if everyone had been told, no one had, and then he had a mini-meltdown realising the repercussions... I thought deleting it without discussion wasn't a great idea, but there was merit in that maybe no one had ever read it to begin with.
It's basically a feckup and no more than that. I clarify this as he has just offered me to take over his team, which I don't think does anything to address the problem other than show he is sorry about it all.
Let's stick to the plan, 4 non-CL. EDogen is fine with it, so let's drop it.
Theon, Tito would never forgive you if you unleashed Anto on him. The only reason I'm arguing about this is because I have nothing better to do. We should just go with whatever the consensus is.My stance too really.
I know man, really stupid of me - I kind of just slipped it in at the beginning, it was there when we were drafting, and then just assumed it would be okay.. But the longer it went on the more it became obvious that not everyone knew about it. So I asked Anto's advice and just deleted it.
I do think its a good rule though, and whilst Anto is right that it would help me in the final if I even got there, whichever way you look at it I dont benefit nearly as much as virtually everyone bar Gio - simply due to luck, if it was anyone bar TITO I would be as screwed as EDogen.
Barely any of the top players are non-cl winners so it was brought in when it became clear that these were an absolute premium and that luck was going to play a big role in the game. As I said at the very beginning the idea of this was to stimulate some debate so I wanted the teams to all be fairly even but with different tactics etc, so the actual debate would play a big role.
As it is though the way the draft is going is just who was able to pick up the most top tier non-winners.
I don't really benefit at all unless you can see something I can't?
It's not luck though mate, it's design. Gio has about seven players I would be happy to start in a final, Fergus secured three and Reina ain't a shabby keeper at his peak. I'm sure he would have loved to get hold of a different non-winner, but he clearly set out to NOT be affected by the luck of the draw.
Getting Ronaldo, one or both fullbacks and the goalkeeper was the obvious strategy for anyone to go for. Only a couple would be able to pull off that (or similar), but there are enough top players out there for anyone to have secured four from the outset. It had associated risks though (see akash, for example) but the fact is everyone gets very caught up in the big names.
The winner of this was NEVER going to be anyone who didn't at least secure 2-3 final-level non-CL players during the draft and it shouldn't be surprising that anyone not contemplating that will struggle to win this. There are ~15 "final quality" non-Cl winners. Enough for four semifinalists, but not enough for 16 teams obviously, which is where the premium kicks in. Some people saw that and some didn't.
Vieira lasted almost two rounds in the reinforcement round, as did Buffon. Both top drawer players whom everyone had a chance to get yet opted not to...
Yeah, last sentence is a great point.
Not just that, you cornered the market for top quality non-CL winners:
Gio: 1. Rivaldo 2. Nedved ... 5. Fabregas 6. Zambrotta 7. Montero 8. Joaquin 9. Owen 10. Mauro Silva 11. Taffarel 12. Makaay ... 14. Vieira
Seems to me you went beyond future-proofing and actually decided to lead them all up shit-creek
Rivaldo has a CL win with Milan no?
Wasn't a key player for that side, but he does ideed. I did ask people to double check that post with everyone's non-CL players!
Interesting match and the right result in the end I reckon, well done EDogen. Keane is an excellent steal for you, too: some great midfields in the draw, but any featuring Zidane and Keane should be able to hold it's own.
This argument seriously annoys me. It's made every game when there's a good winger. A full back will suddenly not be able to attack at all if there's a dangerous player on the flank. So bizarre.
There's no rush in choosing. In fact, teams can say they are picking X and then showing up at the next game with Y. It is only once they are posted on a teamsheet that they are effectively picked. You just have to be careful with the potential backlash from the "surprise pick".
I mention this as EDogen should only really make up his mind once he knows who he is playing next. Is Keane really needed? Who would be up for grabs after that game? He should still have Campbell in the backburner at the very least.
I mention this as EDogen should only really make up his mind once he knows who he is playing next. Is Keane really needed? Who would be up for grabs after that game? He should still have Campbell in the backburner at the very least.
Yeah, this was why I was asking in the other thread about the semis. We will see what happen with my pick after seeing my opponent.
What shall we do about the rule thing then?
My preference would be to leave it as it was (4 non CLs), second choice would be to agree to reducing it to three but also changing it to 2 picks from the opposition.
What's everyone elses preference?
My preference would be to leave it as it was (4 non CLs), second choice would be to agree to reducing it to three but also changing it to 2 picks from the opposition.
What's everyone elses preference?
I actually picked on it in a previous game as it also does annoy me when taken to the extreme of nullifying a fullbacks threat altogether. However, there are degrees of "attacking mindedness" that can be expected from a fullback and those are directly related to how exposed their flank is. Against a narrow side, little to worry about. Against the best wingers, lots to worry about. Quite simple.
With no support from Robben (e.g. which Rafael gets from Beckham) and the pace Overmars possessed (e.g. Evra would always catch up with Beckham!), whoever has that right back slot has to be mindful and fully on top of his defensive duties. It wouldn't completely stop Luis Enrique going forward, but he wouldn't be the wingback Fergus was depicting.
The way the challenge on that flank was presented it made infinitely more sense to play a defensive-minded fullback in Ferrara than a somewhat suspect one with great attacking attributes (Luis Enrique). There's nothing bizarre about it, saying "Lucho won't get forward much" is just a short way of saying all the above.
I thought it was settled as staying as it is? (4 non-CL).
I think we said that we stand by the 4 non CLs.
Not what my team and I had planned for but as the majority seems to not have seen the rule that should be the case.
Not what my team and I had planned for but as the majority seems to not have seen the rule that should be the case.
Oh, ok cool.
Full backs aren't idiots. They won't mindlessly drift forward. And the more your team has the ball, the more your full back will attack (assuming that you use him like that). Dani Alves is an example of a player that attacks every game no matter what the opposition. Barcelona will of course have the majority of the possession but be it Ribery, Ronaldo or no winger at all against him he will still push forward and support.
The way to exploit that is to have your winger stay pretty much up front an go for the counter but even with that plan in mind it will still be hard to execute. Never mind solely on paper like we're doing. Basically what we have to decipher is how much that full back will go forward. With Ferrara it's obvious. He won't go much forward. Enrique will go pretty much every chance he gets.
Agree. That in a nutshell was what I said in a previous game, with ball and without ball are different phases that people need to wrap their heads around.
I agree Lucho will try get forward as often as possible, that's his natural instinct. If you look at Ralaks though, Overmars is key to his transition to attack if not his main route. I would instruct him to stick to defending as there are plenty of outlets for EDogen's side anyway and Robben would beat Capdevila solo anyway.
Asking an attacking fullback to focus on defence is an indication you have the wrong man for the challenge faced though. Ultimately, playing Ferrara there was the right call.
Yeah, when I said I like LE at RB it was more in general, not really regarding this game. I thought people were put out by just seeing in him in that position, not him against Overmars.
As well they should as Edogen had the ability to pick from a number of right backs.