Redafe Champions League Draft - Akash v Jake

[Snow]

I'm looking most towards the two best players on the pitch. Messi and Cantona. The thing about Jake's midfield is that his central midfielders are both deep. Akash has the midfield of ball winners. He could make one of them mark Cantona or Messi all game if he liked. It takes a lot to stop those two though but it would be smart to at least neutralize the one as much as possible. Akash has the midfield to be assigned to such duty but the question is if they'll succeed at it.

Akas' back four is more stable. Chivu is not particularly a strong choice for center back. Slim pickens in the non-winning CB department and that is where Jake took his chances. When I see players like Puyol I try to imagine them in their prime playing for their country rather than club. Players like Puyol got that extra motivation when playing for their club. Not saying he doesn't show it for his country but it might be the difference between going for it 100% all the time or kind of slacking off with 2 minutes left of the game and a goal or two behind. It wouldn't be a negative for most players because it's such a big strength for Puyol how he keeps going and motivates others. Ultimately it's obviously much more of a plus than a minus. I'm just trying to find the weaknesses.

I can't help but feel that Jake is at a disadvantage towards the other players simply because they'd want Messi or Cantona. Pretty much everyone can do with Messi. You can change so many players at this stage so why not go for Messi.

 

[Snow]

Suppose that's true actually. I'm a bit different where i'll vote for the 4-4-2 or 4-2-3-1 all day long. Control of centre mids no good if you havnt the width, creativity or numbers upfront to win you the game

It's not really a 4-4-2 though is it. Robinho is more of a forward then a winger. He's part of the front three or front 2, not part of the midfield 3 or 4 like Ljungberg.

Akash' team is definitely more balanced in midfield and defense. It's a matter of defense winning games or the likes of Messi/Cantona for me.

 

[Aboutreika18]

Not sure how well Cantona and Messi would work together, given Ibra and Messi often got in each other's way on the pitch at Barca.

 

[Theon]

Not sure how well Cantona and Messi would work together, given Ibra and Messi often got in each other's way on the pitch at Barca.

Absolutely.

That was an initial concern when Jake picked Cantona, and it definitely isn't a particularly complimentary partnership.

I find Messi in general really hard to know how to fit into a side, if I had him I'd probably play him as a number 10 - wierd as that sounds given how good he's been in that false 9 role. I think he would be a headache to get the best out of in terms of system.

 

[JakeC]

Messi and Cantona will work fine together, they're not that similar. Even if they were. Two amazing players upfront can't be a bad thing.

 

[JakeC]

Also notice how many of the other teams have voted against me.

 

[antohan]

Still don't see the point in Guardiola in that formation.

That's really absolutely the best way to play Guardiola, not in a two but shielded by two other CMs.

I think the issue to some extent is the order akash started picking in as he was soon tied up with Romario, Guardiola and Hagi and it invariably creates a scenario where you have to make tough choices. Either you drop Guardiola altogether or don't fully exploit him. If you keep him you have a three which means Romario isolated...

Hagi isn't a winger and has to be close to Romario, and Guardiola is best used in a three, which means you need more of a wingback on that left flank and adept LCM cover in Petit. Baraja was a good balanced late pick to complete that midfield, most likely being as underrated as your own Albelda-Mendieta combo. I wouldn't be surprised to see him upgraded to a more recognisable attacking midfielder.

akash clearly needs the three extra players to untangle himself from the pickle he is in and be able to field other formations. Still, he has been lucky to be drawn against a team that he is probably best suited to deal with.

jake has two deep-lying midfielders, with Alonso in particular pressed by Petit. Cantona has Guardiola onto him. Lahm-McManaman will handle Ljungberg and Carlos competently and will be less exposed to errors/getting caught out... No joy at all so far for jakec.

It's all down primarily to Messi and Robinho/Sagnol giving Gio nightmares. If it is Messi vs. Romario relative to their CB pairs I reckon Romario edges that one, so jake pretty much has most of his eggs in the Sagnol-Robinho basket. A bad game from Gio, Petit covering or a lackadaisical contribution from Hagi could cost akash, but it is still all eggs in one basket.

Baraja and Guardiola -in particular- dictating play screams of more openings to me. The familiarity between Guardiola and Hagi/Romario is also worth considering.

It's a closer contest than I expected it to be and I'm inclined to think akash has his own future a lot more under control than jakec.

What options do the subs offer?

 

[JakeC]

You'd be surprised. I know exactly who I want from his team.

 

[antohan]

Christ Theon, you need to put the draft picks on the op on the main thread, I'm not wading through the thread to work out who their subs are.

 

[antohan]

I can't help but feel that Jake is at a disadvantage towards the other players simply because they'd want Messi or Cantona. Pretty much everyone can do with Messi. You can change so many players at this stage so why not go for Messi.

Cue...

Also notice how many of the other teams have voted against me.

Poor scouser form from you jake, whether you are right or not playing the victim isn't fair on akash, is it? It has feck all to do with him.

 

[Moby]

Apologies, it is my mistake. I couldn't put Recoba, our sub in the write up as my laptop's battery was over when I finished it till Romario. I had to add it later but my internet died and I wasn't online for the last two days.

 

[Nighteyes]

My sub is Recoba

 

[Theon]

They've been added now stop complaining Antohan.

 

[Theon]

I can't help but feel that Jake is at a disadvantage towards the other players simply because they'd want Messi or Cantona. Pretty much everyone can do with Messi. You can change so many players at this stage so why not go for Messi.

Disagree here, the only person who would have an interest in that would be BD94 (not yet through but he would get Messi if he does) and Fergus (definitely through, so currently will get Messi).

The rest wouldn't care really, because they have no chance of getting him. With Cantona it's a bit mehh, there are better players available e.g Romario if Akash loses.

 

[Fergus' son]

Disagree here, the only person who would have an interest in that would be BD94 (not yet through but he would get Messi if he does) and Fergus (definitely through, so currently will get Messi).

The rest wouldn't care really, because they have no chance of getting him. With Cantona it's a bit mehh, there are better players available e.g Romario if Akash loses.

I'm sold, I vote Akash.

 

[Fergus' son]

Not really, still undecided. Think I'll prob opt for Jake, thinking his better full backs would make the difference, but I must say people have made a good argument for Akash, much better than I anticipated.

 

[antohan]

My sub is Recoba

There you go, I had forgotten that, excellent supersub for the last 20mins or so if needs be.

Jake has Tiago, not sure which one, I assume the midfielder? No use from that sub really.

 

[Fergus' son]

Yeah, Hagi on the left isn't great IMO, and Romario could be a little isoated? Too much revolving around Guardiola IMO.

 

[antohan]

Disagree here, the only person who would have an interest in that would be BD94 (not yet through but he would get Messi if he does) and Fergus (definitely through, so currently will get Messi).

And thanks to your updated op I could quickly also go check that, while Messi is Messi, he doesn't look all that ahead of Drogba in NMs 1-0 grinding bulldozer side, nor am I that sure Fergus would want rid of Batistuta after blowing up so much smoke up his arse.

Mind you, both of them could use him as a winger or second striker, but neither side screams "built for Messi, to the point I will do anything to get him, inc. voting against my own opinion". Catchy, deserves a # that.

 

[Theon]

And thanks to your updated op I could quickly also go check that, while Messi is Messi, he doesn't look all that ahead of Drogba in NMs 1-0 grinding bulldozer side, nor am I that sure Fergus would want rid of Batistuta after blowing up so much smoke up his arse.

Mind you, both of them could use him as a winger or second striker, but neither side screams "built for Messi, to the point I will do anything to get him, inc. voting against my own opinion". Catchy, deserves a # that.

Yeah that is what I was talking about here,

I find Messi in general really hard to know how to fit into a side, if I had him I'd probably play him as a number 10 - wierd as that sounds given how good he's been in that false 9 role. I think he would be a headache to get the best out of in terms of system.

Messi is extremely problematic to get the most out off because he plays such a bizzare role. And even if you stick him his 'best' role, so as a lone number 9, in a lot of sides it would just look stupid IMO. He's about 5 foot and isn't a typical striker making runs in behind the defence, so in a lot of sides that looked nothing like Barca I would question what he is doing up there on his own.

As I said, I'd play him as a number 10 - so for Fergus behind Batigol, which would just be immense IMO

 

[Gio]

Absolutely.

That was an initial concern when Jake picked Cantona, and it definitely isn't a particularly complimentary partnership.

I find Messi in general really hard to know how to fit into a side, if I had him I'd probably play him as a number 10 - wierd as that sounds given how good he's been in that false 9 role. I think he would be a headache to get the best out of in terms of system.

I'd stick Messi on top of Van Bronckhorst. Take him away from the Ballon D'Or winning centre-back and watch the chaos ensue.

 

[antohan]

Yeah, Hagi on the left isn't great IMO, and Romario could be a little isoated? Too much revolving around Guardiola IMO.

I take it Hagi is more an inside left/support striker. The teamsheet seems to indicate that and the tactics description implies a more traditional flank with Lahm-McManaman and another with no real winger and relying on cover from Petit and Chiellini (both left footers suitable for that) and Hagi providing a link up option.

When you say too much revolving around Guardiola that's what I mean by needing two shielding. You could say that too much is being asked when he is in a two, but in a three he will be at his devastating best.

Just start at 1:00 in the next clip and you will be glued for the entire pair of clips. He was sensational.

 

[Fergus' son]

And thanks to your updated op I could quickly also go check that, while Messi is Messi, he doesn't look all that ahead of Drogba in NMs 1-0 grinding bulldozer side, nor am I that sure Fergus would want rid of Batistuta after blowing up so much smoke up his arse.

Mind you, both of them could use him as a winger or second striker, but neither side screams "built for Messi, to the point I will do anything to get him, inc. voting against my own opinion". Catchy, deserves a # that.

As if I'd drop Batistuta, even if I got Messi.


Anyway, my vote will be heading in Jakes direction pretty soon unless something changes. Romario up front by himself, with only Baraja and a shunted out wide Hagi desperately trying to support him isn't going to work, at all.

 

[Theon]

I'd stick Messi on top of Van Bronckhorst. Take him away from the Ballon D'Or winning centre-back and watch the chaos ensue.

Oh in this team absolutely, complete carnage. I'm not a huge Cannavaro fan (steals too much credit from my boy Nesta) but he would stick to Messi like glue and you wouldn't bet against him somehow keeping him quiet.

I was talking about just in general if I ever got Messi and started to build a team around him, I'd go for him as a number 10 more than anything else.

 

[Fergus' son]

Oh in this team absolutely, complete carnage. I'm not a huge Cannavaro fan (steals too much credit from my boy Nesta) but he would stick to Messi like glue and you wouldn't be against him somehow keeping him quiet.

I was talking about just in general if I ever got Messi and started to build a team around him, I'd go for him as a number 10 more than anything else.

I would too, many seem to think that Messi couldn't/shouldn't play up top unless it's in the Barcelona system.

 

[antohan]

As if I'd drop Batistuta, even if I got Messi.

You wouldn't, and quite rightly. I agree that, while Messi is one of the best players ever, he is not the easiest to retrofit into any team. You would always find a place, obviously, but it's not like your side is screaming out for him.

Anyway, my vote will be heading in Jakes direction pretty soon unless something changes. Romario up front by himself, with only Baraja and a shunted out wide Hagi desperately trying to support him isn't going to work, at all.

As I mentioned above, I think you have misinterpreted Hagi (that's why I dislike footballuser, the players are fecking giant t-shirts so their exact positioning role can be pretty blurred!).

From the OP:

Formation and Roles
I will deploy a 4-3-2-1 formation with McManaman and Hagi playing behind Romario. Not only can McManaman provide width on the right hand side but he's very comfortable playing anywhere behind the main striker. Pep Guardiola will be the deep lying playmaker with Petit and Baraja alongside him. The full backs have the license to go forward but Lahm and Gio are both very good defensively as well. I have the all Italian pairing of Cannavaro and Chiellini with the very reliable Canizares behind them


Ergo, Mc Manaman has a license to go wide but Hagi is firmly tucked inside.

 

[JakeC]

I'd stick Messi on top of Van Bronckhorst. Take him away from the Ballon D'Or winning centre-back and watch the chaos ensue.

That's the beauty of Messi, and my team in general. They can change with each other.

Messi will boss the game, fact.

 

[Moby]

I'd stick Messi on top of Van Bronckhorst. Take him away from the Ballon D'Or winning centre-back and watch the chaos ensue.

And play Cantona up front? That was the problem Jake had as soon as he picked them both. If he plays them like he is doing right now he would have them overlapping as both liked to come deep to create chances for the team and if he plays Messi in his other world class position, on the right he would be left with no one up front. Both Cantona (as a SS) and Messi (as a RF) had a proper striker alongside up front, which is logical anyway.

If he puts Messi out wide it would really affect his balance up front and make things easier for the CBs by not having anyone who would remain the box to deal with the whole time. Cannavaro was very good in putting last ditch tackles against great dribblers, for example when playing for Parma he put off Ronaldo a few times so if he's given enough time to assess the situation before dealing with it he would only find it easier IMO.

 

[Moby]

As if I'd drop Batistuta, even if I got Messi.


Anyway, my vote will be heading in Jakes direction pretty soon unless something changes. Romario up front by himself, with only Baraja and a shunted out wide Hagi desperately trying to support him isn't going to work, at all.

He's not really shunted out wide. Firstly he was a really versatile player, not your Riquelme type number ten who needed to be in the centre of everything to be effective, he in fact was a very tricky player who had great craft to pull out wide a lot of times and cut int, hence leaving the markers beaten. He was a lot more mobile as well, you have this class of attacking midfielders how found themselves more comfortable if they had more space by drifting wide and having enough movement and trickery to find their way back in - Laudrup, Iniesta, and the like - well Hagi also showed a lot of that versatility and comfort and he was certainly not someone who would be wasted if he was not playing smack down the middle. As Brwned also mentioned in the draft thread, he could be a close replacement for the Laudrup role in the dream team, which was again never based with him being in the middle for 90 minutes and he infact drifted right most times.

 

[Fergus' son]

You wouldn't, and quite rightly. I agree that, while Messi is one of the best players ever, he is not the easiest to retrofit into any team. You would always find a place, obviously, but it's not like your side is screaming out for him.



As I mentioned above, I think you have misinterpreted Hagi (that's why I dislike footballuser, the players are fecking giant t-shirts so their exact positioning role can be pretty blurred!).

From the OP:

Formation and Roles
I will deploy a 4-3-2-1 formation with McManaman and Hagi playing behind Romario. Not only can McManaman provide width on the right hand side but he's very comfortable playing anywhere behind the main striker. Pep Guardiola will be the deep lying playmaker with Petit and Baraja alongside him. The full backs have the license to go forward but Lahm and Gio are both very good defensively as well. I have the all Italian pairing of Cannavaro and Chiellini with the very reliable Canizares behind them


Ergo, Mc Manaman has a license to go wide but Hagi is firmly tucked inside.

Hmmm, so what happens on the left side, Gio by himself against Robinho and Sagnol with Hagi occasionally pulling out there too? Petit constantly monitoring that side taking away from the strength of the midfield? Im finding it more and more odd, Romario definitely needs someone close him and I can't see it with any of his midfielders or Macca so I would've definitely tried to get Hagi right behind him or even next to him. Romario is too lazy and relatively unprofessional to thrive in a system that isnt properly suited to him and I'm not sure this one is at all.

 

[Moby]

That's the beauty of Messi, and my team in general. They can change with each other.

Messi will boss the game, fact.

As I said, you wouldn't have played Messi up front if you had someone better to play that role in the first place. You lack an out and out striker which is why you are forced to play Messi in that role.

 

[antohan]

I would too, many seem to think that Messi couldn't/shouldn't play up top unless it's in the Barcelona system.

Nah, what has been questioned is the way Messi is invariably one of the top 1-3 picks yet then a team gets built which looks nothing like any team you have ever seen Messi in and he gets converted into a winger. It's weird.

In your case you would obviously take a player of Messi's quality, and you would find a place, but your side has already been setup differently and I'm willing to bet my left nut it wouldn't be at Batistuta's expense.

Very different thought processes. The latter is reasonable and makes sense, the former is manic.

 

[Cutch]

Would be interestin to hear BD and NM's reasons for voting akash given that a Jake loss would mean they can get Messi!

 

[antohan]

Both Cantona (as a SS) and Messi (as a RF) had a proper striker alongside up front, which is logical anyway.

Jake will regret not picking John O'Shea instead of Tiago.

 

[Theon]

Would be interestin to hear BD and NM's reasons for voting akash given that a Jake loss would mean they get Messi!

 

[Moby]

Hmmm, so what happens on the left side, Gio by himself against Robinho and Sagnol with Hagi occasionally pulling out there too? Petit constantly monitoring that side taking away from the strength of the midfield? Im finding it more and more odd, Romario definitely needs someone close him and I can't see it with any of his midfielders or Macca so I would've definitely tried to get Hagi right behind him or even next to him. Romario is too lazy and relatively unprofessional to thrive in a system that isnt properly suited to him and I'm not sure this one is at all.

Petit won't be moving away from the midfield when in possession. Gio performed that exact same role at Rijkaard's barca when Dinho often moved inside, so it is not a big difference. Moreover you seem to be ignoring Chiellini, who is very adept as a left back and can easily cover any space left by Gio's runs. Gio's runs with Pep's long range inch perfect diagonals would be very useful and open the play, and from there Hagi can take over.

 

[Fergus' son]

He's not really shunted out wide. Firstly he was a really versatile player, not your Riquelme type number ten who needed to be in the centre of everything to be effective, he in fact was a very tricky player who had great craft to pull out wide a lot of times and cut int, hence leaving the markers beaten. He was a lot more mobile as well, you have this class of attacking midfielders how found themselves more comfortable if they had more space by drifting wide and having enough movement and trickery to find their way back in - Laudrup, Iniesta, and the like - well Hagi also showed a lot of that versatility and comfort and he was certainly not someone who would be wasted if he was not playing smack down the middle. As Brwned also mentioned in the draft thread, he could be a close replacement for the Laudrup role in the dream team, which was again never based with him being in the middle for 90 minutes and he infact drifted right most times.

Yeah, Iv seen Hagi play plenty of times and would agree that he has great propensity to drift out wide, or drift in sometimes from a wide position. That's not my issue, my issue is that with your particular set up, I'd want him closer to Romario, and I'm not sure he will be able to do all of provide Romario with the support he needs, provide creativity being the most creative player in your team, and also contribute on that left wing.

Seems like an enormous burden on certain players in your team and I'm not certain that they would cope...

 

[Cutch]

I demand a full explanation from both! Sneakin in there votin thinkin no one would notice!

 

[Moby]

Yeah, Iv seen Hagi play plenty of times and would agree that he has great propensity to drift out wide, or drift in sometimes from a wide position. That's not my issue, my issue is that with your particular set up, I'd want him closer to Romario, and I'm not sure he will be able to do all of provide Romario with the support he needs, provide creativity being the most creative player in your team, and also contribute on that left wing.

Seems like an enormous burden on certain players in your team and I'm not certain that they would cope...

He is exactly that. He won't be spending time fiddling around the touchline, hardly. He is there to support Romario, link up with him. He would spend a lot more time centrally and the width on the left will be provided by the fullback. Our game is based on possession play and there will be a lot of interplay in the middle till a fullback is needed to open up play when needed, almost like Alba/Alves do at Barca and Gio would have enough time to reach a point where he can receive a nice diagonal and put it back. But as much as Hagi was adaptable, he is most certainly not there to handle the flank himself, just that he doesn't need to be smack down the middle to stamp his authority on the game. And with Romario wanting support here, he would be a lot more central than he would be out wide.

 

[Fergus' son]

He is exactly that. He won't be spending time fiddling around the touchline, hardly. He is there to support Romario, link up with him. He would spend a lot more time centrally and the width on the left will be provided by the fullback. Our game is based on possession play and there will be a lot of interplay in the middle till a fullback is needed to open up play when needed, almost like Alba/Alves do at Barca and Gio would have enough time to reach a point where he can receive a nice diagonal and put it back. But as much as Hagi was adaptable, he is most certainly not there to handle the flank himself, just that he doesn't need to be smack down the middle to stamp his authority on the game. And with Romario wanting support here, he would be a lot more central than he would be out wide.

Yeah, with that said I'd worry about your left flank, considering people have pointed out that the right flank of Jake could cause the most problems for you. Chiellini could cover, being a former lb, but he and Cannavaro have Messi and Cantona to deal with too. Seems a bit convoluted all in all.

Anyway, that's enough from me, good luck to both teams.