Thank God Varane has retired from Internationals. Having one of him and Martintez is important IMO.
Recovery between games is our biggest enemy: can we ward off fatigue for the remainder of the season?
- Thread starter Fortitude
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To me, this really shows that when everyone is available we do have decent depth compared to what people make out. You could even bring in Pellestri and Maguire - two internationals. Martial if fit makes it a completely different outfield to Sunday.
Five subs is a game changer for keeping players fresh too.
Pretty much agree with this. The number of games played, and coming up, and these are intense matches, will be taking a toll. Top four is key and should be the priority.
We really need other players to come in an dominate games, like Rashford, Casimero, Martinez, Shaw, Varane, DDG are doing... really making a difference, week in, week out... but they cannot be expected to do so, they will show fatigue (through errors...) and then fans will bemoan them. This is what concerns me. Bruno already seems a little fatigued (and no, he can't just play every match...)
Antony, Martial, Sancho, McTominay.. can we get two, or even one of these to take the reins for a couple of games. Dominate the game, win one or two games...?? they are all capable, but need to do it.. for their team-mates. I just feel the ultimate success of our season will be dependent upon them. I don't want to see a tired Man Utd XI getting shown up because the players simply ran out of steam. Squad have to step up.
Change the back 4 totally for midweek.
Start Sabitzer, Sancho and Garnacho.
That's still a stronger team than West Ham have.
Start Sabitzer, Sancho and Garnacho.
That's still a stronger team than West Ham have.
Getting knocked out of the FA Cup in QF might be a blessing (since we already won 1 domestic cup). Focus on the league and Europa.
Getting knocked out of the FA Cup in QF might be a blessing (since we already won 1 domestic cup). Focus on the league and Europa.
If I had the choice (I know I don’t!) I’d much rather win the FA Cup than the Europa (assuming we nail down top 4, which seems likely)
Obviously fitness / recovery is going to be a big issue that needs good squad management.
Doing well in all competitions will always bring that one 'negative' - even more so this season with the unusual scenario of a winter world cup and the death / funeral of a monarch leading to postponements.
Defensively, we've been able to rotate and I don't think any of them - with the possible exception of Shaw - have been overused at all. In CM, we're over reliant on Casemiro and he risks being overused - but the four games he's been forced to miss with suspension have 'helped' with that.
It's only really Fernandes and Rashford that have been overused - and that need to continue to be overused due to their qualities and importance to the team. If Martial can ever be fit for a few games, so that we have a goalscoring #9, then we might be able to use Rashford as a sub occasionally. And, if Eriksen returns, he could maybe fill in for Bruno occasionally. Until then, we need them without seeing a huge drop off in quality.
But, in the main, those two are the main issues. The key Varane - Martinez - Casemiro group have been well managed - the latter due to his suspensions - and they're winners, used to battling for many trophies in a season (admittedly not in the PL), so should know how to juggle important weekend - midweek games.
I definitely think it's going to be a factor in some matches - we're going to tire towards the end of tough games more so than an opponent who have had 7 or 8 days rest between matches. Especially this first season, when it's new to most, the squad isn't as strong as it could be, and there's been the added winter world cup / death of a monarch issues. But learning to manage a squad and a heavy workload is all part of developing a winning mentality and challenging for multiple honours, so it's a 'problem' we're going to, hopefully, have to get used to.
Doing well in all competitions will always bring that one 'negative' - even more so this season with the unusual scenario of a winter world cup and the death / funeral of a monarch leading to postponements.
Defensively, we've been able to rotate and I don't think any of them - with the possible exception of Shaw - have been overused at all. In CM, we're over reliant on Casemiro and he risks being overused - but the four games he's been forced to miss with suspension have 'helped' with that.
It's only really Fernandes and Rashford that have been overused - and that need to continue to be overused due to their qualities and importance to the team. If Martial can ever be fit for a few games, so that we have a goalscoring #9, then we might be able to use Rashford as a sub occasionally. And, if Eriksen returns, he could maybe fill in for Bruno occasionally. Until then, we need them without seeing a huge drop off in quality.
But, in the main, those two are the main issues. The key Varane - Martinez - Casemiro group have been well managed - the latter due to his suspensions - and they're winners, used to battling for many trophies in a season (admittedly not in the PL), so should know how to juggle important weekend - midweek games.
I definitely think it's going to be a factor in some matches - we're going to tire towards the end of tough games more so than an opponent who have had 7 or 8 days rest between matches. Especially this first season, when it's new to most, the squad isn't as strong as it could be, and there's been the added winter world cup / death of a monarch issues. But learning to manage a squad and a heavy workload is all part of developing a winning mentality and challenging for multiple honours, so it's a 'problem' we're going to, hopefully, have to get used to.
In fairness, I think all top clubs have this issue. It's why they need to have bigger squads to cope. If Rashford gets injured, then it would probably derail our season. But what club can have their star player injured and not suffer?
I think fatigue is more draining from a mental point of view if you play all of these games and get nothing from it. Kind of like Liverpool last year going so close to the quad. We've one trophy in the bag now. That makes the extra games wroth it, and I struggle to believe that tiredness was on any of the players' minds post game.
It may eventually catch up, but we said the same thing about the 2 legged semi final vs Forest, not topping the group in the EL and having the extra tie etc etc. Beating Barca and Newcastle 3 days later feel like era defining moments, nevermind season defining. Well worth the extra minutes in the legs.
I think fatigue is more draining from a mental point of view if you play all of these games and get nothing from it. Kind of like Liverpool last year going so close to the quad. We've one trophy in the bag now. That makes the extra games wroth it, and I struggle to believe that tiredness was on any of the players' minds post game.
It may eventually catch up, but we said the same thing about the 2 legged semi final vs Forest, not topping the group in the EL and having the extra tie etc etc. Beating Barca and Newcastle 3 days later feel like era defining moments, nevermind season defining. Well worth the extra minutes in the legs.
Thursday--- Sunday games it is now hopefully we stay In Europa league.. FA cup on Wednesday is going to be a struggle imo unless ETH makes changes. It's been 2 energy sapping games. The players though seem to be enjoying this fixture list and winning becomes a habit. Top 4 is paramount so league form needs to be consistent. If there was one comp to get knocked out of I'd take the FA Cup.
To be fair, we have escaped February by doing a wonderful job. And if I look at the fixtures for March, it is much kinder than February. We have two weeks of international break where hopefully rashford doesn't get picked for meaningless friendlies and Varane will get a proper rest. Even Martial can get up to speed for April. I think this is not the month to throw away FA cup or europa. Barring Liverpool away we have winnable games if we manage it properly. I say let us go all out and hope we get a kind draw in the next round of FA cup which will be played on thr 19th March just before international break.
Yeah. I think this is pretty much nail on head. I mean we have Mctominay, garnacho, martial and Sancho but that's not nearly good enough, so to balance it out we will have to hope that these guys keep doing the job and we are able to rotate them out of key games, as and when needed
I think playing vs West Ham mentally after this win will be very difficult. We'll see how it goes. But the next step is pushing on after success to sustain it. It is "just" the league Cup, but it means so much to the club and you can see that with all the players. There tends to be a bit of a hangover after trophy wins so let's hope we can kick on straight away. Will be very impressive if we can and not a big deal if we can't tbh.
Casemiro has had a bit of rest. Martinez can be rested for Shaw or Lindelof at CB with Malacia on the left. Shaw and Rashford are the biggest concerns at the moment I’d say but with the above and Garnacho should be rotatable at some point.
The real problem will come if anyone gets injured.
Having Martial back and fit for the remainder of the season (big if!) would be huge in terms of options and rotation - would give us 6 options for the 3 positions upfront. Any news on when Eriksen is expected back?
Whilst fatigue is definitely a factor I think it's overstated. It's generally used as an excuse when results turn sour. I don't doubt that having a full week to train and recover between games helps, as compared with 72-hours, but these are professional athletes and we have a world-class medical/sport science department supporting the manager.
Plus, when you run through the best XI/best 13, there's only really Bruno, Rashford and Shaw who I'd be concerned about resting currently. CBs should be fine, AWB/Dalot have rotated, Casemiro has just missed three leagues games, Fred/McTominay/Sabitzer have all had time out of the side, same with Sancho, Garnacho and Anthony....
I'd leave Shaw out on Wednesday and start Malacia and potentially Anthony and Sancho wide instead of Bruno. They've then had a week off. That's more than adequate for recovery.
Plus, when you run through the best XI/best 13, there's only really Bruno, Rashford and Shaw who I'd be concerned about resting currently. CBs should be fine, AWB/Dalot have rotated, Casemiro has just missed three leagues games, Fred/McTominay/Sabitzer have all had time out of the side, same with Sancho, Garnacho and Anthony....
I'd leave Shaw out on Wednesday and start Malacia and potentially Anthony and Sancho wide instead of Bruno. They've then had a week off. That's more than adequate for recovery.
We have to field our B team for the FA Cup, if we don't want to kill some of the main players:
De Gea
AWB, Lindelof, Shaw, Malacia
Sabitzer, McTominay, Mainoo
Garnacho, Pellestri, Sancho
De Gea
AWB, Lindelof, Shaw, Malacia
Sabitzer, McTominay, Mainoo
Garnacho, Pellestri, Sancho
I'll be really surprised if we can match West Ham's intensity on Wednesday. You'd be primed to have your players really turn up the tempo when facing us at the moment and back your side to have more in the tank come the 60th minute mark onward.
I hope we get through, but won't be shocked if we don't.
Some players can rotate but ETH has never been about wholesale changes..
Your back four seems sound. Casemiro can come in. He's recently had three games off.
He's never going to start Pellestri and Mainoo though. Bench options at 60 mins. Would prefer Garnacho coming on at 60 mins against tired legs too.
Yeah. The big deal was the cup win and the Barca games, honestly from here on out the season is just about doing as well as we can in the league and progressing with the system of play, player development as IMO the target pre season is pretty much already achieved. We're comfortably 3rd, and won a trophy. Would be great if we win another, but it'll still be an excellent season if we don't win the Europa League or FA Cup.
We've won a cup, shown great performances in big games, and are challenging across multiple competitions while acknowledging that our squad isn't at the level to really do that yet. So everything from here on in is a bonus, so the challenge for the staff will be to get them hungry for more as it's understandable to feel set with this season.
ETH is doing very well on rotation. It's quite similar during SAF time.
I think we will be ok. Last season Liverpool was chasing quadruple with almost the same 11 played at very high intensity.
I think we will be ok. Last season Liverpool was chasing quadruple with almost the same 11 played at very high intensity.
Yes and 3 were due to suspension, where we dropped points in two of those games. Proving my point.
And then they fell apart the next year yeah
Liverpool isn't the greatest example.Anyways circling back to the OP, I will say if by some act of God Martial can stay fit in the run in (or at least reasonably fit) then my prediction changes somewhat. He'd add another dimension and threat from the middle, and would also allow for the Rashford rest games/off games that he's bound to have at some point. I've just given up hope that we ever see him play again so didn't really factor it in.
Nobody does bar city and maybe Chelsea but they don't click yet.
Just stay around and hope for an arsenal colapse and a point deduction for city.
The way ETH has handled rotations and substitutions so far, capped by the weekend's Carabao trophy, gives me much hope for surviving the remainder of the season. Given the UCL pot draw implications of winning the Europa League, and the slim chances of winning the EPL this year, I'd put winning the EL as top priority. The teams remaining in the FA Cup allow us the most potential leeway for "resting" players, though I'd love to see that trophy, too. All that said, quite a bit of our bench were starters in Ole's second place league finish two years ago, and ETH is getting a tune out of them when needed. I say push on as we have until the wheels fall off... because they might not fall off.
And then they fell apart the next year yeah
Anyways circling back to the OP, I will say if by some act of God Martial can stay fit in the run in (or at least reasonably fit) then my prediction changes somewhat. He'd add another dimension and threat from the middle, and would also allow for the Rashford rest games/off games that he's bound to have at some point. I've just given up hope that we ever see him play again so didn't really factor it in.
They sold Mane one of their most important player and they didn't properly strengthen the squad especially after the season they had.
Next season ETH is going to strengthen the squad with more of his players to suit his style of play. I don't see us having the problem.
I've been pretty impressed with Sabitzer and I think Wout is making a contribution so i'm less concerned than I was in December. Lindelof, Malacia, Sancho, Garnacho, Maguire, should all get a fair few games before the end of the season but I sometimes wonder if they'll be trusted enough to replace the likes of Casemiro, Martinez, Bruno, Varane and Rashford.
An injury to Rashford and you genuinely have to wonder where the goals will come from. That's why the Martial situation is so frustrating to fans because he could ease that burden tremendously if he could just stay fit.
On a positive note-the right back situation looks very healthy at the moment though; genuinely happy with either of them with the way they've both been playing
An injury to Rashford and you genuinely have to wonder where the goals will come from. That's why the Martial situation is so frustrating to fans because he could ease that burden tremendously if he could just stay fit.
On a positive note-the right back situation looks very healthy at the moment though; genuinely happy with either of them with the way they've both been playing
Is it? if that schedule comes to pass then that means we're winning games so fatigue wouldn't appear to be an issue
Win the Europa then top 4 doesn't really matter that much
Everyone seems to be forgetting that the players have had a mid-season break which they don't normally get
The ones who didn't go to the WC had about 3-4 weeks off, the ones that did have had around 2-3 weeks off.
The ones who didn't go to the WC had about 3-4 weeks off, the ones that did have had around 2-3 weeks off.
Not really. We could be winning cup games but dropping loads of points in the league. Most of the most difficult games left this season will be in the league anyway.
Is there actually any science in this or is it just an assumption. Obviously if you play 2 games a week instead of 1 you double the risk of injury just because its a contact sport. But theoretically the body should be able to handle these amount of games. There is of course mental and over training but the staff and players should be able to design it properly. Like less cardio and the players should just spend off time basically on the couch playing FIFA.
Its obviously not ideal but it is what it is. Ten Haag will manage it. If we fail then we fail but we cant just use the excuse that we are too tired.
Its obviously not ideal but it is what it is. Ten Haag will manage it. If we fail then we fail but we cant just use the excuse that we are too tired.
Don't see us dropping loads of points in the league TBH
Oh I'm not comparing it to us, I agree we'll strengthen much better than they did (truthfully it was years of neglect for them especially on their midfield).
Was more saying in general that even if you get lucky and can run the same XI out there 50-60 times without a hiccup, it comes around to bite you eventually. Just the nature of the sport
Hmm, you did say he was playing in every single game …and therefore would get injured. But he hasnt been playing in every game. He’s missed three in fact just this month.
It's a tricky one. In the last week we have won a cup to kickstart the trophy habit, and we have bested one of the top teams in Europe. I feel like we have proven that we can live with any team in the world. So I'm tempted to say let's throw everything we've got at the league and rotate the team in the FA and UEFA cups. Arsenal and City still have to play each other and there are still a lot of games left. It's a tiny chance, but the chance is there and I think we should view the league as a possibility and go for it. There is no team in the world with the momentum that we have just at the moment.
I didn't say "he would get injured", I said him, Rashford, and Bruno basically have to start every game for us at the moment as the quality drops off massively if one of them is out. And it's optimistic to think none of those three will miss any games for the rest of the year, hence why we'll probably slip up at some point in one of our competitions. You proved my point by noting the games Casemiro was out, where we promptly got only 4 out of a possible 9 points in those 3 games
I think it's because it's a contact sport with specific positions that it's hard to actually study but I think scientifically 3 days of rest/light training after a 90min game should be "enough". The real issue is the wear and tear on a body, you get a knock but never wait for it to go, you pick up a load of niggles throughout a season and players seem encouraged to play through minor injuries. That and some cnut comes through the back of you or puts a knee in your back when you go up for a header.
Not if we play to our best, no. This thread is about an obvious reason we may under-perform though.
We're currently playing Bruno, Casemiro, Rashford every single game essentially. I'd be shocked if all three stay fully fitI didn't say "he would get injured", I said him, Rashford, and Bruno basically have to start every game for us at the moment as the quality drops off massively if one of them is out. And it's optimistic to think none of those three will miss any games for the rest of the year, hence why we'll probably slip up at some point in one of our competitions. You proved my point by noting the games Casemiro was out, where we promptly got only 4 out of a possible 9 points in those 3 games
I mean that’s what you said…
How else is one supposed to take that?