Recovery between games is our biggest enemy: can we ward off fatigue for the remainder of the season?

Fortitude

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The defeat against - the most high-flying version of - Arsenal where we came close to winning despite missing Casemiro, convinced me we're a side who will give a game (and problems to) literally anyone we play against for the remainder of the season so long as we're fit and fresh. Those thoughts were only reinforced as we then took on both City and Barca. That's three league-chasing sides who did not enjoy playing us in the slightest.

For the majority of the second half yesterday, the game became a battle against flagging and fatigue primarily as our players were running on fumes - reliant on substitutions to see out the game with anything like the intensity, which is becoming a hallmark.

I don't believe any particular run of games is a burden over the challenges of maintaining standards whilst wrestling with cumulative fatigue. For example, both Rashford and Weghorst can only truly rest if Martial returns and gets a run of games under his belt; Casemiro, too, we know there's serious drop in functionality without him, ergo, we may well still win a game without him, but the drain on the collective when doing so will elevate further due to how much [less] control of the games we then have.

As far as I see it, fatigue is our strongest opponent and biggest obstacle for the remainder of the season. It is inevitable - if the load remains, that load being serious contenders across three competitions. I am not advocating we drop any competition, nor would ten Hag entertain that, what I'm asking is: how well do you feel we can realistically fare against the odds?

Losing out because you were bested is wholly different to just not having enough left in the tank to compete. Not sure when the last time we were deep into two cup competitions and looking like the real deal in the league was, but it comes with its own unique set of challenges. It'll be perhaps ten Hag's biggest feat of the season if he can keep the juggling act up and have us go out on our proverbial shield over having to call time on the race because we've got a stitch!
 
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Fortitude said:
The defeat against - the most high-flying version of - Arsenal where we came close to winning despite missing Casemiro, convinced me we're a side who will give literally anyone we play against for the remainder of the season so long as we're fit and fresh. Those thoughts were only reinforced as we then took on both City and Barca. That's three league-chasing sides who did not enjoy playing us in the slightest.

For the majority of the second half yesterday, the game became a battle against flagging and fatigue primarily as our players were running on fumes - reliant on substitutions to see out the game with anything like the intensity, which is becoming a hallmark.

I don't believe any particular run of games is a burden over the challenges of maintaining standards whilst wrestling with cumulative fatigue. For example, both Rashford and Weghorst can only truly rest if Martial returns and gets a run of games under his belt; Casemiro, too, we know there's serious drop in functionality without him, ergo, we may well still win a game without him, but the drain on the collective when doing so will elevate further due to how much control of the games we then have.

As far as I see it, fatigue is our strongest opponent and biggest obstacle for the remainder of the season. It is inevitable - if the load remains, that load being serious contenders across three competitions. I am not advocating we drop any competition, nor would ten Hag entertain that, what I'm asking is: how well do you feel we can realistically fare against the odds?

Losing out because you were bested is wholly different to just not having enough left in the tank to compete. Not sure when the last time we were deep into two cup competitions and looking like the real deal in the league was, but it comes with its own unique set of challenges. It'll be perhaps ten Hag's biggest feat of the season if he can keep the juggling act up and have us go out on our proverbial shield over having to call time on the race because we've got a stitch!
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This is a problem all clubs remaining in each of the remaining comps have to deal with, thanks to the fixture congestion caused by the idiocy of a winter world cup in Qatar. Managers are just going to have to muddle through by rotating where possible.
 
I mean I hate to sound like a downer because I do actually think we are one of the best teams in Europe when fit, but we simply don't have the depth to really challenge for all 3. Something will have to give, or we'll probably falter at some point in one of them. We're currently playing Bruno, Casemiro, Rashford every single game essentially. I'd be shocked if all three stay fully fit

If I had to guess, we'll probably fall in the FA cup, come up short in the league, and win Europa. That outcome seems most likely to me, as we are already longshots for the league and I could see us losing a tight one at some point in the cup. I do think we are favorites in EL though.
 
that's why teams spend millions on equipment and physios to deal with this specific issue come the last 3 months of the season...massive tricky situation for Ten Hag
 
We have perhaps 15/16 players who are of the quality needed to battle on all fronts if fit. Eriksen is injured and Martial is racing Jones for the sick bed every day.
We havent the 22 that City have yet. I suspect that some of the 15/16 players wouldnt be TH choice either as they were already at the club and have had to be used.

Yesterday they played less than 3 days after Barca in the most important game of the season so far. Newcastle had had a weeks rest.

Maybe we will hit a brick wall and go out of one or both of the cups early, because of fatigue. As long as we finish at least 3rd in the Premier, then thats all we can ask for. Anything else is a big bonus.

Next season, once TH has bought in another 4/5 of his own pick of players in, maybe with a couple of promoted youths as well, we will be in a much better position with rotation.
 
Rotation is key,we are probably going to be knocked out in one of the the competitions if we don't rotate. For instance against west ham in the FA cup a team of .
De gea,Dalot, Maguire, Lindelof, Malacia,MCTominey,Sabitzer, Sancho, Garnacho,Elanga WW, is enough to scrap past Westham, we can call other players if need be.
I think it's better we make use of the whole squad and wobblein one of the competitions than use the first eleven and wobble in three of them due to fatigue.
 
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wolvored said:
We have perhaps 15/16 players who are of the quality needed to battle on all fronts if fit. Eriksen is injured and Martial is racing Jones for the sick bed every day.
We havent the 22 that City have yet. I suspect that some of the 15/16 players wouldnt be TH choice either as they were already at the club and have had to be used.

Yesterday they played less than 3 days after Barca in the most important game of the season so far. Newcastle had had a weeks rest.

Maybe we will hit a brick wall and go out of one or both of the cups early, because of fatigue. As long as we finish at least 3rd in the Premier, then thats all we can ask for. Anything else is a big bonus.

Next season, once TH has bought in another 4/5 of his own pick of players in, maybe with a couple of promoted youths as well, we will be in a much better position with rotation.
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Jones was a pundit for Sky Sports yesterday.
 
Depth and quality of backup players was not the problem, THE problem we just didn't have the options recently so the same players had to play every game.

For example, when Casemiro was out we played Sabitzer there (he's clearly not fully fit yet). We barely got away with it.

McTominay was out for a while. Sancho just returned to the team and overnight became a starter because Antony got injured.

Martial is out means there's no other way, Wout plays every game.

The only formation looking fresh is defense, because we actually have options there.

Last few weeks basically Ten Hag didn't really had a choice. I'm sure we can rotate much more now.
 
In recent weeks I've started to become more concerned about burn out. The style of football we play, the demands Ten Hag puts on the players, I just hope its sustainable long term and he gets the backing he needs to not end up in a Klopp situation in a few seasons.
 
Bring back Amad.. would be a massive boost. Can play AM and WF.
 
wolvored said:
We have perhaps 15/16 players who are of the quality needed to battle on all fronts if fit. Eriksen is injured and Martial is racing Jones for the sick bed every day.
We havent the 22 that City have yet. I suspect that some of the 15/16 players wouldnt be TH choice either as they were already at the club and have had to be used.

Yesterday they played less than 3 days after Barca in the most important game of the season so far. Newcastle had had a weeks rest.

Maybe we will hit a brick wall and go out of one or both of the cups early, because of fatigue. As long as we finish at least 3rd in the Premier, then thats all we can ask for. Anything else is a big bonus.

Next season, once TH has bought in another 4/5 of his own pick of players in, maybe with a couple of promoted youths as well, we will be in a much better position with rotation.
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City don't have 22 first teamers squad either it's a myth they actually never had that and United squad depth isn't lacking , with sensible rotation and game management we should be aiming to go deep in Europa and FA Cup and ideally look to hit 80+ point mark in the league as well .
 
Of course fatigue might be an issue in the later part, but I don't think it will be a major problem.

1. We are a much fitter side, and i think that most of the players can and probably will play all of our remaining games. We've got 17 confirmed games which can rise to 25 if we qualify for finals of FA Cup and EL.

2. The only problem is that we don't have proper backups for 3 players at the moment. Bruno, Casemiro, and Rashford. The level drops when either of the 3 aren't in the team (we've seen that with Casemiro already). Hopefully Eriksen and Martial will be back before the end of season, which gives us a little more depth for the last few games when fatigue might be an issue.
 
The rotations will be key with so many games for us left to play, hopefully against West Ham we can rest Casemiro, Bruno, Varane, Shaw and Rashford for the game against Liverpool and get some rest for key players.

Maybe lineup:

DDG
Dalot
Lindelof
Martinez
Malacia
McSauce
Sabitzer
Sancho
Garnacho
Weg
Antony
 
Valencia Shin Crosses said:
I mean I hate to sound like a downer because I do actually think we are one of the best teams in Europe when fit, but we simply don't have the depth to really challenge for all 3. Something will have to give, or we'll probably falter at some point in one of them. We're currently playing Bruno, Casemiro, Rashford every single game essentially. I'd be shocked if all three stay fully fit

If I had to guess, we'll probably fall in the FA cup, come up short in the league, and win Europa. That outcome seems most likely to me, as we are already longshots for the league and I could see us losing a tight one at some point in the cup. I do think we are favorites in EL though.
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Casemiro literally missed four entire games in the last month.
 
If you want to win you have to expect injuries and burnout, and have a squad capable of handling that.

I'd always rather be positive and try to win every match, rather than resting players for a run-in which may never happen. No point in having a fit and healthy squad while cruising to 6th.
 
redDNA said:
Rotation is key,we are probably going to be knocked out in one of the the competitions if we don't rotate. For instance against west ham in the FA cup a team of .
De gea,Dalot, Maguire, Lindelof, MCTominey,Sabitzer, Sancho, Garnacho,Elanga is enough to scrap past Westham, we can call other players if need be.
I think it's better we make use of the whole squad and wobblein one of the competitions than use the first eleven and wobble in three of them due to fatigue.
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Don't think you're giving West Ham enough credit, we're not going to win that game with only 9 players.
 
redDNA said:
Rotation is key,we are probably going to be knocked out in one of the the competitions if we don't rotate. For instance against west ham in the FA cup a team of .
De gea,Dalot, Maguire, Lindelof, MCTominey,Sabitzer, Sancho, Garnacho,Elanga is enough to scrap past Westham, we can call other players if need be.
I think it's better we make use of the whole squad and wobblein one of the competitions than use the first eleven and wobble in three of them due to fatigue.
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I hope ETH goes with similar in the FA Cup and if we get knocked out so be it. Needs to rest Casemiro, Varane, Martinez, Bruno and Rashford before Liverpool ideally.
 
To be honest I don’t think our situation is that bad. Pretty much everyone apart from Rashford and Bruno have missed some games here and there, let’s rest these 2 and maybe a couple others like Varane against West Ham. We have 6 games until the international break during which some key players will hopefully get rest too.
 
It’s the price of success.

For me the only real concern is Rashford. We can manage the minutes of everyone else. If Rashford got injured I’d worry about where the goals are going to come from.
 
I commented in the matchday thread that even by about minute 10 Fred and Casemiro were looking a bit tired, losing out on loose balls they would usually be all over.

It will be a problem but that's what happens when you fight on 4 fronts. I think we can cope with games every 4 days but 3 after an intense Barcelona was pushing it. Looking at our positions.

RB - no problem. two solid options there
LB - Same as above
CB - Lindelof, Shaw and Maguire are fine as long as they have one of Varane/Martinez with them

CM - Sabitzer is an able deputy but if one of him, Fred or Casemiro gets injured we are in trouble.

The attack is ok too with multiple players for each position. The worry is what happens if Rashford is out, but that's not one of squad depth, it's just having one player in tremendous form.



Now we have the first trophy I think ETH might ease off slightly on always playing the same team.
 
Raoul said:
This is a problem all clubs remaining in each of the remaining comps have to deal with, thanks to the fixture congestion caused by the idiocy of a winter world cup in Qatar. Managers are just going to have to muddle through by rotating where possible.
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we were fecked by Queen’s death. First No game for a month or something then a game against City and now this fixture pile-up
 
gajender said:
City don't have 22 first teamers squad either it's a myth they actually never had that and United squad depth isn't lacking , with sensible rotation and game management we should be aiming to go deep in Europa and FA Cup and ideally look to hit 80+ point mark in the league as well .
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They did though. I'm not sure where your "myth" comes from?

Their second string were as good as most other teams first team.
 
No. I still remember the team's (and Bruno's in particular) drastic drop-off in form and in-game fitness after being over-played during lockdown.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Does anyone know if/when we next get a full week off between fixtures?
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If we go all the way in every comp, I don't think we have a midweek off til almost the end of the season

The current mid-weeks gaps & the matches that might fill them are below

w/c 21st March - rearranged league game moved due to FA Cup QF
w/c 10th April - Europa League Q/F 1st leg
w/c 17th April - Europa League Q/F 2nd leg
w/c 1st May - rearranged league game moved due to FA Cup semi-final
w/c 8th May - Europa League S/F 1st leg
w/c 15th May - Europa League S/F 2nd leg
w/c 22nd May - nothing
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Does anyone know if/when we next get a full week off between fixtures?
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Not if we qualify for all competitions or there's an international break (where some players might get some rest). There's just 1 window where we might have a 1 week break, that's from Apr 30 to May 6th (provided that we don't have to play rescheduled matches midweek). Otherwise its going to be 2 games per week for the rest of the season.
 
We aren’t expected to win the league. As the weeks go by, it might be there where the players are rested. Unlike Liverpool last year, we can afford to drop points. Spurs and Newcastle will drop plenty.
 
Baneofthegame said:
The rotations will be key with so many games for us left to play, hopefully against West Ham we can rest Casemiro, Bruno, Varane, Shaw and Rashford for the game against Liverpool and get some rest for key players.

Maybe lineup:

DDG
Dalot
Lindelof
Martinez
Malacia
McSauce
Sabitzer
Sancho
Garnacho
Weg
Antony
Click to expand...

Would be very surprised if ETH trusts this starting 11.
 
RiqCantona said:
Not if we qualify for all competitions or there's an international break (where some players might get some rest). There's just 1 window where we might have a 1 week break, that's from Apr 30 to May 6th (provided that we don't have to play rescheduled matches midweek). Otherwise its going to be 2 games per week for the rest of the season.
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Fecking hell. Nuts.
 
At least this week it’s Wednesday then Sunday and our opponent on Sunday also plays Wednesday so it evens it out. Last weeks game (and it was our own doing for not winning the group in Europa) Thursday knock out game against Barca then a cup final where our opponents had all week to rest and prepare made it feel worse.
I think ETH had a blinder yesterday he knew we were tired so we sat further back and played in stages. I was never really worried either which is huge testament to how this team has progressed.
 
We have to start resting some of the key players. ETH has done a good job rotating the defenders but it's imperative Bruno and Rashford get a rest on wednesday.
 
Baneofthegame said:
The rotations will be key with so many games for us left to play, hopefully against West Ham we can rest Casemiro, Bruno, Varane, Shaw and Rashford for the game against Liverpool and get some rest for key players.

Maybe lineup:

DDG
Dalot
Lindelof
Martinez
Malacia
McSauce
Sabitzer
Sancho
Garnacho
Weg
Antony
Click to expand...

It’s a risk, but West Ham at OT in the cup is definitely the place to rest a few players.
 
We've been a little unfortunate with some injuries in key positions, and then the suspensions really hurt us. However, I feel that now we can really start to rotate with the West Ham game in particular and pretty much all but three first-team players available for the first time in months. Martial is even in training so if he can finally overcome this seasons injury woes he might be an important tool in the box we have.

Point is, we can make occasional changes to the starting XI in every position now and EtH effects games from the bench - we actually have something like 6-7 players on the bench now who can change games in their own way. So, EtH will keep making these right decisions and give players mini-rests or even half-game rests with well thought out substitutions.
 
The most important thing is to keep Shaw, Case, Bruno, and Rashford ready when we are facing top 6 in away games. Other than that, I have no worry.
 
Wout and Sabitzer has bought the players some much needed rest. DDG is a goalkeeper so he'll be fine. Bruno is a freak of nature so I have no concerns when it comes to his fitness. Recent weeks have also proved that we can rotate between AWB and Dalot on the right back. Malacia is also a good option on the left should Shaw pick up an injury.

There are 4 players who I worry about right now: Varane, Martinez, Casemiro and Rashford.

I think that at most 2 of these players can be out at the same time, with some exceptions. We can't be missing both Varane and Martinez or both Rashford and Casemiro for instance. They are too close on the pitch and will completely disrupt our defence or attack.
 
We have a decent sized squad and can make 5 subs in a game.....Jesus wept :wenger: :wenger:
 
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