This will be discussed until he finally hangs up hos boots (or is locked away for life). I wish him well, but he blew it and I have no sympathy. The amount of stick Lingard gets from our own fans, at least he can look back when he retires he tried his best and enjoyed a few good years. What will Ravel think?
Ravel Morrison | UAE 2nd Division player
- Thread starter saivet
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You're right. What would SAF know? Even the rest of the countless high profiled individuals that have come out and said pretty much the same thing. These are experienced professionals that have seen players up close and personal on a daily basis, I think that trumps being a MUTV subscriber for 20 years.
Rooney was never a United youth player, not sure why you think you can speak on Sir Alex’s behalf, as you head off on a tangent about an Everton youth product. But know exactly what Sir Alex meant?
The best player from the class of 92 didn’t make the grade and he was better than Becks, Giggs etc, it is possible to be a better talent.
People in this thread are so confusing. Why are you doubting all the great players that have said how talented he is? He’s clearly an elite talent who ruined his chances with a poor attitude.
Recently, Rooney and Neville both commented on Morrison. So, it's very understandable that people are discussing in here.
Even if that wasn't the case, what is wrong with people wanting to discuss a player (an ex-academy one too) in a thread designated for him? People need not be obsessed to discuss the career of a player they're interested in.
Ok thanks for pointing out the obvious that Rooney was an Everton youth product.
I’m sure, as every football fan and person in Britain was, that SAF was well aware of Rooney at youth level. Ya know just before he decided to feckin buy him!
I’m not speaking for Sir Alex but it’s fair to assume he Is likely to have overtly expressed how talented Ravel was.
It’s human nature to exaggerate at times, especially during reminiscent conversation.
That’s far more likely than him genuinely believing Ravel to be more talented that Ryan feckin Giggs.
Nobody is questioning his talent, just many massively exaggerate it.
He was better than his peers but he wasn’t a George Best, a Giggs, or a feckin Ronaldinho Ffs
another one who knows more than Saf Rooney Neville anyone connected to Man Utd tied at the time, because he watched a game
Wow so either Saf is a liar or he’s thick ?
another one who knows more than Saf Rooney Neville anyone connected to Man Utd tied at the time, because he watched a game
It's weird to mock someone for judging a player by watching them. If we're going to going to use the appeal to authority argument in this manner, there's not that much point of a football forum , otherwise we could all tune in to Garth Crooks to let us know where we should rate players.
Locked away for life? Apart from the stupid shit he was getting involved with as a teenager over ten years ago, what gives you that impression?
Again I’m not saying the kid wasn’t talented, just the obvious overhyping of him by some is crazy.
Hey listen I’m not questioning the Don. Never would do that.
I’m just pointing out that when people on camera get asked about certain things or people it’s quite easy to over elaborate, especially if it’s said with an intent for them to hear it.
SAF once said Jones could be the best footballer in United’s history. Now did he really believe that? Probably not, but it’s said for a purpose, I believe he wanted Jones to hear that praise.
Now by the same token, Do we really all believe that SAF rates Ravel more highly than any youth player “he had ever seen.” ?
Or was that an over exaggeration with the intent being for Ravel to hear it and benefit from it?
I feel the latter is more likely.
Again, I acknowledge he was a very highly rated player, but for sake of balance we need to stop comparing him to some of the greatest players of the last 25 years ffs.
It's something ex-players have recounted in their own conversations with SAF. I remember Henry Winter came to do a talk at my school and was saying that there was a buzz amongst press and footballers alike about a player the likes he hadn't seen for a while, but there were worries about his personal life. I went after the talk to confirm that it was Ravel he was speaking about. It wasn't just local to United, people across the English football system were really excited about him in a way that really spoke to how highly rated he was.
Also your misquoting what Fergie said, he said best youth product he had seen at United since Giggs.
Yes because Sir Alex didn’t know a special talent, but you do
Jesus, you're being real thick or defensive about the calamity of SAF being possibly wrong when it comes to assessing players at a young age, which is a gamble at all times, no matter how sure a prospect looks in youth competition; there's been countless examples given on the matter. People make mistakes and SAF's done his share as well just like the rest of us. This is really the lamest way of trying to shut down the argument when I've given valid examples.
I've said plenty of times I thought myself that he would be a special player, the difference is I can look back and say that he was talented, but not on the level of other players that have been discussed who were just as bad off-the-field and yet did more with their time on it because they are superior talents. I haven't heard one convincing argument as to why that's wrong. The proof is on the field at the end of the day.
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another one who knows more than Saf Rooney Neville anyone connected to Man Utd tied at the time, because he watched a game
Not like we know what SAF truly thought. We just have some comments. Even the GOAT has his comments regarding Phil Jones. We're all free to make our judgements.
Ah there we go, somebody had misquoted him then because I was reacting to a post where somebody said SAF said he was the best youth talent he had ever seen.
As I’ve said multiple times, I’m not saying he wasn’t talented, I watched that group come through the youth system and was as excited to see them all progress.
That said SAF didn’t trust almost any of them to start games for the first team when we needed numbers in midfield in particular.
For me, I’ve been more excited to see Greenwood come through than I ever was about Ravel.
Likewise watching Ravels group at the time I was equally excited to see Pogba progress as I was with Ravel.
The comparison with Ravel and every other player is solely on that age level where he saw him.
The common factor when describing the 900th "what could have been" scenario with Ravel Morrison is that the same accolades repeat themselves from numerous football personalities who will have actually seen him day in and day out. Obviously a crossroads happened and that talent got swiftly overtaken by player who actually made it in to the EPL.
But at one point in time, the common perception with SAF, and other Man United legends, is that Ravelo Morrison, was in fact the most talented player they had seen in that age group, at that time.
I don't think most of the Morrison critics are arguing against this point. He very well could have been the biggest talent at academy level we've had but that's where the praise should end.
Until a player displays their ability in senior football all they are is hype. Morrison (through reasons of his own mostly) has done almost nothing in senior football so I fail to see how he was this super talent on the level of the likes of Rooney and Giggs when they took the piss out of senior football at the age of 16/17. Examples have been given of Balotelli, Ben Arfa and Cassano as unprofessional players who still managed to breakthrough mainly through talent only. They didn't sustain their time at the top due to being unprofessional but initially justified what the hype was about.
Ravel has done no such thing and is no different to several other youngsters who were touted for the top but failed to meet expectations . Some posters are in denial and think Ravel's case is unique but it really isn't and trotting out quotes doesn't change that. He's no different to Gael Kakuta or Dani Pacheco who were gods at youth level. Even players like Carlos Vela and Victor Moses who had decent careers were expected to be world beaters because their talent at youth level was outrageous. These are the players Ravel should be compared to not the likes of Giggs and Rooney.
Doherty was the best of the class of 92! Giggs wasn’t rated as the best.
And seen a few interview when Ravel was at the club, so not people reminiscing.
Perhaps there's something of a curse when it comes to being highly rated in the youth ranks. Perhaps you're more likely to succeed when you're the second best talent and have more to prove in your formative years while the #1 talents lose the hunger.
Doherty vs Giggs
Quaresma vs Ronaldo
Morrison vs Pogba
Sure there are other examples and plenty of counter examples to go with it
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Giggs, Ronaldo and Pogba were all massive talents.
Well that just proves that perception of footballers at that age can be skewed.
Nutmegging teenagers and running through novice defences can make a kid look like the next Messi. But the truth is that kids of all ages progress at different rates.
Conversely average looking kids can turn out to be gems and starters in the first team -much like McTominay for example.
I mean the praise does end at him being a special talent at academy level. The reason he’s being compared to Giggs and Rooney are because Rooney most recently commented on it and other players have come out saying SAF compared him to Giggs.
If you watch the most recent interviews with
Neville and Rio, it shows that the press misrepresented the situation hugely. It wasn’t about work ethic, they both said he was going through personal things. To quote Neville ‘I don’t think it was down to attitude or work ethic, he had some significant complexities and challenges in his life that I think any of us would have found difficult. From that point they meant he has not achieved what he could have.’
We don’t know what he was going through, but it must have been significantly challenging especially if Rio and Neville thought to comment on it.
I think there have been a bunch of studies at both academic and athletic levels to look at this. My understanding is that it's relatively common for the "best" to not make it, but the second best to make it as people that are massively ahead can find it difficult to cope with adversity and having to try as hard as possible whilst the followers have to push. Obviously it's not a blanket statement, but I think lots of people struggle in the step up in competition.
I also think people in this argument are taking different interpretations of talent, and I think it's keeping the conversation going round in circles. Talent as in ability, or talent as in potential. Obviously talent is demonstrated. You don't look at someone that cannot kick a football and claim that they have talent, but if you are thinking about talent in terms of potential, it's far more contextual. How do they look compared to other people at the same point in the development curve? This is a predictive process, so you can say "this person is insanely talented" but then they never amount to anything because their advantage disappears over time. However, if you're using talent as a pure ability without context, then it doesn't make as much sense. Why would the most talented player ever not achieve anything?
Perhaps I worded it badly but what I meant was Giggs, Ronaldo and Pogba were seen as the second best talents.
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The guy below explains it better than me and I agree with what he is trying to convey regarding the bits highlighted in bold.
"And no matter how much of a bad kid Ravel might have been, he's still put in enough time on the practice field and jumping from club to club to have had more than a month or two of solid football in 8-9 years of professional football. I'm sorry, but no way that's acceptable for a talent of the level you're trying to convey. "
Yeah this is the point I've been making. Some make out he's the best naturally talented footballer we've had here (I choke on my coffee as I write it) yet excuse him for having done absolutely. nothing. in professional football.
Januzaj had a lot of talent and a terrible attitude, thought he'd made it, blah blah, he's still done much more than Ravel Morrison-dinho
No one is making out like he’s the best footballer ever. People are simply saying he was a superbly naturally gifted young player. Then others are jumping up and down about him not having proven anything in the adult professional game. They simply can’t see you cannot take away what he was. He’s had very little impact in the senior game, he’s had a few runs of form, scored some decent goals. But his mental issues have destroyed his senior career.
This is always gets brought up, but the fact is Phil Jones DID look like he could become something genuinely special when SAF said that. He was a regular starter in the PL as an 18 year old centre back ffs. That's exceptionally rare. Injuries and a total absence of coaching/direction after SAF left ruined Jones, not a lack of talent.
Same story as the Morrison comparisons with players like Januzaj, they're not valid. Januzaj thought he'd made it but he was still turning up and working to a professional level, just not the level that was needed to fulfil all of his talent. Ravel has never done even the bare minimum, yet he's still scraping his way into the Premier League. That's how much talent he has.
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I know that and I rated him highly as well but Jones didn't develop as he could and does have some limitations to his games. Point is it's like predicting how stock will perform. Even Warren Buffet gets them wrong. I think SAF's comments on Ravel were more on talented academy level players not considering premier league players.
I think its using the term "elite talent" to describe Ravel and that is confusing people. If someone's talent is elite, then their natural ability is already above their peers (youth or pro level). The sensible thing to conclude would be that he had elite talent at YOUTH Level rather than he was just an elite talent like guys like Cesc or Giggs who were in the 1st team in their teens which allowed them to actually demonstrate this.
How do you know though? He signs for clubs and spends time on the training field. How are you measuring who done the bare minimum and what that even quantifies? Is this just assumptions based off their relative successes? I have heard of countless players who were awful trainers and didn't even like training but they became more than championship level players.
Some of the stuff about this guy is ridiculous in this thread. Ultimately, when someone has everything laid on a plate for them, they have to do, and become. He didn’t. He’s a never was. Happens all the time. Talent does not ever exist in a bubble, it is not it’s own separate category, it is locked into practice, interest, exposure, and a thousand other things.
And posters are judging his ultimate talent level on how he performed in youth matches!! Youth matches!! He is getting a pass no PL player could ever get there - he has not been good enough to start regularly for a PL team. Stop comparing him with Gaza and start comparing him with Jack Rodwell or Dean Marney or someone. In fact that’s an insult to those two.
And posters are judging his ultimate talent level on how he performed in youth matches!! Youth matches!! He is getting a pass no PL player could ever get there - he has not been good enough to start regularly for a PL team. Stop comparing him with Gaza and start comparing him with Jack Rodwell or Dean Marney or someone. In fact that’s an insult to those two.
I think every club he's ever played for has said something about it.
Us -
West Ham -
At Lazio he lasted a year after he refused to learn Italian and basically went AWOL on them.
Not to mention getting arrested and charged with various crimes throughout his career.
There are bad trainers and players who think they've already made it, then there's that.
Utterly disgraceful!
Romario had comparably questionable attitude to football.
https://ronaldo.com/football-news/football-misfits-romario-the-brazilian-who-surpassed-pele/
Even Romario himself confessed that he was always willing to make an escapade in order to go out partying, especially if there were women involved.
Cruyff explains: “One time, Romario asked me if he could miss two days of training to return to Brazil for the carnival in Rio de Janeiro.
“I replied: ‘If you score two goals tomorrow, I’ll give you two extra days rest compared to the other players.’
“The next day, Romario scored his second goal 20 minutes into the game and immediately gestured to me asking to leave. (Mid game)
He told me: ‘Coach, my plane leaves in an hour’. I had no choice but to let Romario leave for fulfilling his promise.”
Of course, the game was against none other than El Clasico rivals Real Madrid.
And Romario went one better than promised — netting a hat-trick as Barcelona won 5-0 at the Nou Camp.
EDIT : Besty disappeared for a full week to spend time with Mrs Britain and drank himself silly.
Ronaldinho’s former PSG team-mate Jerome Leroy, who told SFR Sport: “Ronaldinho did not train at all on any day of the week. He would just turn up on the Friday for a game on the Saturday.
“That was Ronaldinho. I believe he tried to follow in the footsteps of Romario, who also went out every night, but did not have the same success.”
Leroy also told So Foot: “In the mornings, Ronaldinho would turn up in sunglasses. He would get dressed and go directly to the massage rooms to sleep. Players with his enormous talent are usually a little crazy.”
Wenger on Ozil "He doesn’t practise a lot, we rest him a lot between the games. He is a guy who once the basic fitness is there between the games, he wants to play.”
Ravel wants to be the modern day Carlos Kaiser but perhaps wasn't as talented as the guys who could get away with this behaviour
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What players did 30+ years ago is irrelevant. It's ok to go and get drunk if half the opposition is also doing it. George Best even played whilst pissed on occasion.
Ronaldinho isn't the best example either as a) you're talking about a once in a lifetime talent and b) his partying nearly got him kicked out of PSG. The move to Barcelona saved him from fading into oblivion.
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i) True - I agree that once in a lifetime talent gets a pass as they don't need to do the things others are doing but Ravel is being compared to the BEST we have ever produced like George Best, Beckham and also guys like Gazza.
ii) Don't agree as Barcelona paid big money for him despite the partying, he stilled starred for Brazil and WE were going to sign him regardless so not sure how we would of faded into oblivion. Clearly his talent was getting him through and did so for 9-10 years. Again I do agree that players like Ronaldinho and Romario are exceptional because they have that innate talent that doesn't require as much honing.
Even with all his talent, Ronaldinho still had his ups and downs. He generally loved football and did put effort in. It was only at PSG and towards the end at Barcelona that he let his standards slip. The first time he almost fell out with the club, the second time it finished his career at the top level.
Ravel has been like this non stop since he was a schoolboy. No amount of talent can overcome that.
Yeah and in fairness you won't find anybody saying he wasn't super talented and the best in his age group. That's as about as far as it goes though really, I mean I've posted before that I must have watched 90% of his games coming through the youth teams on MUTV and I agree he was a super talent.
It's incredibly hard to judge how each youth player is going to turn out. Pogba came through in the same age group and look how much more he's achieved than Ravel (just one comparison.) Pogba is a world cup winner and one of the most famous faces in football and Ravel can't get a game or proper run of games in any team he's played for. Look at McTominay, did anybody expect him to make the impact he's had when you look back and see him as a kid?
The key point though, and the sticking point for posters like myself, is if his talent was that incredibly high then he would have made some sort of impact in his pro career, he just would have. By saying that it doesn't mean I don't acknowledge his talent as a kid.