Rashford and Martial are a problem

Lentwood said:
The saying - “there are lies, damned lies and statistics” has never been more apt than when comparing Rashford, Rooney and Ronaldo solely on their goalscoring records at 23

First and foremost, Rooney started playing PL football at 16 and had racked up over 50 PL appearances for Everton by the time he turned 18. Many of these games he would have featured for a handful of minutes only. Unsurprisingly, his goalscoring record during this period wasn’t spectacular, if you take his age out of the equation.

It’s also important to remember that Rooney was more of a scorer of great goals than a great goalscorer in his younger years. He was more likely to be making a sliding challenge at fullback or knocking a 50yard pass from centre midfield than he was to score a tap-in at the back post. It wasn’t really his game. It sounds strange to say it given he is Utd and England’s all-time top scorer but his game wasn’t really about goals until his mid-20s

Also, if you look solely at Rooney’s first 100 games for Utd vs Rashford’s first 100 (they started at a similar age), Rooney is well ahead.

Similarly, comparing any goalscoring record to Ronaldo at 23 is ridiculous. Ronaldo was an out-and-out old fashioned winger for the majority of his time at United. I think I am right in saying Ronaldo didn’t even score a goal in the CL until he had made some crazy number of appearances and now he is the all-time record goalscorer. What Ronaldo did have in his early years was unbelievable feet, pace, trickery and a better delivery than he was often given credit for. He only turned into the absolute goalscoring machine that he was known as later in his career at about 23/24. Any comparisons before that are deliberately misleading.

So, I don’t really like doing this because a PL goal is a PL goal, and who is to say one is more important than another...but let’s take a look at Rashford’s 8 goals in 24 this season, if we’re analysing this stuff in detail. Four of those eight goals have come in three games against Sheffield Utd, Brighton and Newcastle - teams in the bottom 5. One of those goals came in a 9-0 victory against a horribly demoralised, 10-man Southampton team. One was almost certainly an own-goal, albeit a very important one, against Wolves. I’m fairly certain that shot was headed well wide but we won’t really know for sure because of the short trajectory from Rashford’s foot to the Wolves defender.

Last season was his best season in PL history, scoring 17 goals in 31 games, which coincided with him being virtually the sole penalty taker in a season we won (I think) a record number of penalties. Yes, before anybody starts, this is relevant because the point is, Rashford has consistently posted a solid but unspectacular record of roughly one goal every 3 games and the only time he has performed above this was when he was on penalty duty. This year, take away the penalties and lo and behold...back to the one in three - in the PL in any case, since that’s what counts.

Now above and beyond all this, I actually find it slightly insulting to two of our greatest ever players to be compared with Marcus Rashford. No amount of massaged statistics or flawed comparisons is going to convince me of what I have sat and watched in OT week-in, week-out.

I was lucky enough to attend virtually every home game (and the odd away game) that Rooney and Ronaldo played for United. I have also seen the majority of Rashford’s home games live, although I stopped going the year of Jose’s meltdown. I have, of course, continued to watch on TV.

Some things in football can’t be quantified by numbers. For example, can you compare Scholes vs Gerrard vs Lampard by looking at goals and assists? Can you compare Ferdinand vs Terry vs Sol Campbell vs Maguire based on headers won, tackles made or blocks? Can you compare Wan-Bissaka with Ashley Cole or Gary Neville by comparing % of tackles won? I’d say “absolutely not” to all of the above. Football isn’t played on Excel, things happen on a football pitch that will always only be apparent to a good judge. Yes, I would include myself in that - but you don’t need to be a good judge to know Rooney and Ronaldo where far better than Rashford. You just need to have watched the three of them play on a regular basis.

And this for me is the crux of the issue. Why do die-hard Utd fans like me line up to knock Rashford? In my case, I’d say its certainly not because I’m negative, in fact, I would generally say in percentage terms my posts have been overwhelmingly positive and supportive over the last three years, with a few exceptions.

The reason I knock Rashford and get so wound up by it is the hyperbole and the hype around a player I think is effectively no more than a solid PL footballer who is now approaching his peak years and shows little to no signs of every really kicking on and being the special player we hoped he could become when he burst onto the scene.

It wouldn’t bother me but compare the treatment of Rashford with Martial and you see how media bias is conning our fanbase. Their records are almost identical in professional football. Never mind comparing Rashford with Ronaldo and Rooney...why not compare him with a teammate who has basically had an identical career to date? Because it doesn’t suit the agenda or the narrative that’s why. One is (perhaps rightly) roundly written off whilst the other is a “world class talent” who is supposedly on par with our best ever players.

See, that’s how statistics work. If you’re going to frame them to pretend Rashford is amazing, then why not point out his PL goals per game record is identical to Callum Wilson, who has been playing for Bournemouth and Newcastle in that time?

I’d love Rashford to prove me wrong. I think the work he does off the pitch is great but unfortunately I can’t factor that in when judging his footballing contribution. I would like to see improved decision making, better ball retention, more intelligent movement, more defensive efforts, better passing in tight areas against low-blocks. All stuff that is difficult to assess based solely on stats, but stuff my eyes and experiences tell me he is miles away from world-class at. That’s before we even get down to brass tax and say that even if we’re solely going to judge him on his goals and assists, he needs to start delivering more as he hits his peak to stay on the so-called Rooney/Ronaldo trajectories
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Just like you said in your post, statistics are decieving, but when comparing rashford to martial, that also rings true. Rashford may be off beat at times, but his dribbling, passing and shooting are attempts to make things happen, what does martial do??
 
KD6-3.7 said:
If Pep gets frustrated with Sterling’s finishing why on earth would he swap him with Rashford? Not to mention how often Rashford loses the ball due to decision making and sloppy passing.
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As much as Sterling, maybe even less too.
 
KD6-3.7 said:
If Pep gets frustrated with Sterling’s finishing why on earth would he swap him with Rashford? Not to mention how often Rashford loses the ball due to decision making and sloppy passing.
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Rashford loses the ball because we dont play with Possession, Position and Play - the three P's of Guardiola.

Rashford is an individual in our team relying on his own abilities and the abilities of others. The same with Martial and Greenwood.

Rashford being coached to play the 3p's would be deadly - the same way Sterling was okay for Liverpool but went up a level when playing a system rather than just his own individual ability.
 
Lentwood said:
The saying - “there are lies, damned lies and statistics” has never been more apt than when comparing Rashford, Rooney and Ronaldo solely on their goalscoring records at 23

First and foremost, Rooney started playing PL football at 16 and had racked up over 50 PL appearances for Everton by the time he turned 18. Many of these games he would have featured for a handful of minutes only. Unsurprisingly, his goalscoring record during this period wasn’t spectacular, if you take his age out of the equation.

It’s also important to remember that Rooney was more of a scorer of great goals than a great goalscorer in his younger years. He was more likely to be making a sliding challenge at fullback or knocking a 50yard pass from centre midfield than he was to score a tap-in at the back post. It wasn’t really his game. It sounds strange to say it given he is Utd and England’s all-time top scorer but his game wasn’t really about goals until his mid-20s

Also, if you look solely at Rooney’s first 100 games for Utd vs Rashford’s first 100 (they started at a similar age), Rooney is well ahead.

Similarly, comparing any goalscoring record to Ronaldo at 23 is ridiculous. Ronaldo was an out-and-out old fashioned winger for the majority of his time at United. I think I am right in saying Ronaldo didn’t even score a goal in the CL until he had made some crazy number of appearances and now he is the all-time record goalscorer. What Ronaldo did have in his early years was unbelievable feet, pace, trickery and a better delivery than he was often given credit for. He only turned into the absolute goalscoring machine that he was known as later in his career at about 23/24. Any comparisons before that are deliberately misleading.

So, I don’t really like doing this because a PL goal is a PL goal, and who is to say one is more important than another...but let’s take a look at Rashford’s 8 goals in 24 this season, if we’re analysing this stuff in detail. Four of those eight goals have come in three games against Sheffield Utd, Brighton and Newcastle - teams in the bottom 5. One of those goals came in a 9-0 victory against a horribly demoralised, 10-man Southampton team. One was almost certainly an own-goal, albeit a very important one, against Wolves. I’m fairly certain that shot was headed well wide but we won’t really know for sure because of the short trajectory from Rashford’s foot to the Wolves defender.

Last season was his best season in PL history, scoring 17 goals in 31 games, which coincided with him being virtually the sole penalty taker in a season we won (I think) a record number of penalties. Yes, before anybody starts, this is relevant because the point is, Rashford has consistently posted a solid but unspectacular record of roughly one goal every 3 games and the only time he has performed above this was when he was on penalty duty. This year, take away the penalties and lo and behold...back to the one in three - in the PL in any case, since that’s what counts.

Now above and beyond all this, I actually find it slightly insulting to two of our greatest ever players to be compared with Marcus Rashford. No amount of massaged statistics or flawed comparisons is going to convince me of what I have sat and watched in OT week-in, week-out.

I was lucky enough to attend virtually every home game (and the odd away game) that Rooney and Ronaldo played for United. I have also seen the majority of Rashford’s home games live, although I stopped going the year of Jose’s meltdown. I have, of course, continued to watch on TV.

Some things in football can’t be quantified by numbers. For example, can you compare Scholes vs Gerrard vs Lampard by looking at goals and assists? Can you compare Ferdinand vs Terry vs Sol Campbell vs Maguire based on headers won, tackles made or blocks? Can you compare Wan-Bissaka with Ashley Cole or Gary Neville by comparing % of tackles won? I’d say “absolutely not” to all of the above. Football isn’t played on Excel, things happen on a football pitch that will always only be apparent to a good judge. Yes, I would include myself in that - but you don’t need to be a good judge to know Rooney and Ronaldo where far better than Rashford. You just need to have watched the three of them play on a regular basis.

And this for me is the crux of the issue. Why do die-hard Utd fans like me line up to knock Rashford? In my case, I’d say its certainly not because I’m negative, in fact, I would generally say in percentage terms my posts have been overwhelmingly positive and supportive over the last three years, with a few exceptions.

The reason I knock Rashford and get so wound up by it is the hyperbole and the hype around a player I think is effectively no more than a solid PL footballer who is now approaching his peak years and shows little to no signs of every really kicking on and being the special player we hoped he could become when he burst onto the scene.

It wouldn’t bother me but compare the treatment of Rashford with Martial and you see how media bias is conning our fanbase. Their records are almost identical in professional football. Never mind comparing Rashford with Ronaldo and Rooney...why not compare him with a teammate who has basically had an identical career to date? Because it doesn’t suit the agenda or the narrative that’s why. One is (perhaps rightly) roundly written off whilst the other is a “world class talent” who is supposedly on par with our best ever players.

See, that’s how statistics work. If you’re going to frame them to pretend Rashford is amazing, then why not point out his PL goals per game record is identical to Callum Wilson, who has been playing for Bournemouth and Newcastle in that time?

I’d love Rashford to prove me wrong. I think the work he does off the pitch is great but unfortunately I can’t factor that in when judging his footballing contribution. I would like to see improved decision making, better ball retention, more intelligent movement, more defensive efforts, better passing in tight areas against low-blocks. All stuff that is difficult to assess based solely on stats, but stuff my eyes and experiences tell me he is miles away from world-class at. That’s before we even get down to brass tax and say that even if we’re solely going to judge him on his goals and assists, he needs to start delivering more as he hits his peak to stay on the so-called Rooney/Ronaldo trajectories
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I have never said or claimed that Rashford was on the level as Ronaldo or Rooney and I have never believed that "statistics" can be prove one player is better than another.Like you I prefer to go by what I see on the field or TV screen and Rashford is obviously a very good payer, a quality player, but to compare him with the likes of Ronaldo, or Best, Law, Charlton, Robson, Scholes, Cantona is pointless. That said, I would rather Rashford played for us than another team. Ive never thought Rashford would develop into an out and striker, a great striker, he is, like Rooney and Bobby Charlton, a scoer of great goals more than a great goal scorer. I too would love to see Rashford go that extra step and become the player we all hoped he would become but I imagine we will have to accept that his legacy will be that of a top, top quality player who could be unplayable on his day rather than a truly great, inspirational one.
 
roonster09 said:
On your other point, why do die hard Utd like you are negative on Rashford, well answer is simple. You made bs claim long back and sticking to it with so much mental gymnastics to prove how you were right all the time.

You are good poster except when you post about Rashford. For some reason you turn into one of those agenda drviedriven LUHG accounts.
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I'm happy to admit to being wrong though. I was very pro-Jose for a long-time but now I recognise he was taking the club in completely the wrong direction. I thought Martial would become a top, top player and it looks like I am going to be wrong about that. I defended Schneiderlin but clearly he just wasn't good enough.

I think what I would like to see, in the interests of fairness, is some objectivity from both sides, if you like - which admittedly you don't very often get from Internet debates.

I might have gone overboard in some of my criticisms of Rashford at times in the heat of the moment, I accept that, but we all have that one player who we just don't see it with. Case in point, I was never a big fan of Ryan Giggs, used to drive me mad. Was clearly a great player but I just never quite got on-board with the idea of him being this world-class player. I am sure you have players who just get under your skin for some reasons, who every other fan seems to rate - we all tend to have one.

I think what I would like to see now is the very pro-Rashford fans stop talking about potential or making excuses about managers, being played out of position, injuries etc....The lad is 23 and has played, what, 200+ senior football matches. It's time to deliver now. If he does deliver, fantastic, nobody will love that more than me. I will happily come on here and say what an idiot I am if he is even close to being as good as Rooney and Ronaldo at 25/26. However, I think it's time that we start talking about him being 'a young player with potential' and start recognising that fact he's approaching what should be peak years for a pacey attacker and he needs to be CONSISTENT...not just the odd good game here or there or when teams open up and leave spaces for him to attack (Sociedad, Leipzig etc...) but be consistently a 7/10 (or better) every week.
 
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Lentwood said:
I'm happy to admit to being wrong though. I was very pro-Jose for a long-time but now I recognise he was taking the club in completely the wrong direction. I thought Martial would become a top, top player and it looks like I am going to be wrong about that. I defended Schneiderlin but clearly he just wasn't good enough.

I think what I would like to see, in the interests of fairness, is some objectivity from both sides, if you like - which admittedly you don't very often get from Internet debates.

I might have gone overboard in some of my criticisms of Rashford at times in the heat of the moment, I accept that, but we all have that one player who we just don't see it with. Case in point, I was never a big fan of Ryan Giggs, used to drive me mad. Was clearly a great player but I just never quite got on-board with the idea of him being this world-class player. I am sure you have players who just get under your skin for some reasons, who every other fan seems to rate - we all tend to have one.

I think what I would like to see now is the very pro-Rashford fans stop talking about potential or making excuses about managers, being played out of position, injuries etc....The lad is 23 and has played, what, 200+ senior football matches. It's time to deliver now. If he does deliver, fantastic, nobody will love that more than me. I will happily come on here and say what an idiot I am if he is even close to being as good as Rooney and Ronaldo at 25/26. However, I think it's time that we start talking about him being 'a young player with potential' and start recognising that fact he's approaching what should be peak years for a pacey attacker and he needs to be CONSISTENT...not just the odd good game here or there or when teams open up and leave spaces for him to attack (Sociedad, Leipzig etc...) but be consistently a 7/10 (or better) every week.
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Why should he be close to Ronaldo and Rooney? Why are you setting the bar so high? I know we are ManUtd and all that but that doesn't mean every player we have should be at that level. One player is arguably best 3 player to ever play the game and the other is ManUtd and England's highest goal scorer. If that's the standards then we have only 5-10 good players in the world and rest all are bang average PL player level.

Rashford in his first year as consistent starter contributed to 34 goals last season, this season he has 28 goal contributions. Isn't that not contributing well?
 
One thing I`ve noticed with Rashford is ABUs always and I mean ALWAYS Look for something to use to put him down in whatever way necessary. Last season it was "hE`s sCoReD MaNy PeNaLtIeS!!!!111" This season because he`s not our designated penalty taker it`s how "lucky" some of his goals were completely ignoring the fact that those scruffy goals are what used to be season defining for us under Fergie it wasn`t always tippy tappy football with aesthetically pleasing passing, dribbling and finishing from an individual player that won us trophies. Amidst all the criticism its worth emphasizing that despite his all round game being annoying sometimes he`s 5 goals away from matching his goal scoring record from last season in February and one assist away from matching his assist tally from last season. He`s also our only attacker with a hat trick to his name IN THE CHAMPIONS LEAGUE AGAINST LAST SEASON`S SEMI FINALISTS!!! There are aspects of his game he needs to improve on and he needs to be more consistent 100% but he`s far from our biggest problem when Martial is constantly stinking up the joint week in week out and Lindelof proving he`ll never be a starting CB for us and at 23 there is still room for growth whether some here want to believe it or not.
You dont hit 20+ goals and 10+ assists(he`ll hit 20 goals this season for sure) for 2 seasons in a row if you`re an average player it simply does not work like that and no mental gymnastic attempt can twist that fact
 
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That Shoretire lad, how young is he? Is he as ready as Amad is? Giving a debut to another academy lad, would, hopefully, put some fire in Rashy's and Anto's bellies. Neither is performing to a decent standard this season.
 
Water Melon said:
That Shoretire lad, how young is he? Is he as ready as Amad is? Giving a debut to another academy lad, would, hopefully, put some fire in Rashy's and Anto's bellies. Neither is performing to a decent standard this season.
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He's only just turned 17. No where near as ready as Amad is in my opinion. I think Ole put him in the squad like Fergie would back in the day, a taste of things to come. Maybe there's a chance of him being on the bench again on Thursday, but they're both at very different places in their development I think.
 
roonster09 said:
Why should he be close to Ronaldo and Rooney? Why are you setting the bar so high? I know we are ManUtd and all that but that doesn't mean every player we have should be at that level. One player is arguably best 3 player to ever play the game and the other is ManUtd and England's highest goal scorer. If that's the standards then we have only 5-10 good players in the world and rest all are bang average PL player level.

Rashford in his first year as consistent starter contributed to 34 goals last season, this season he has 28 goal contributions. Isn't that not contributing well?
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Its because people need to feel success to rate Rashford.

Rashford's ability to score/assist 20+ goals a season (and improve on it season per season) is not valued by some fans because it doesn't really lead to the success the fans want. They get frustrated at that and try to pick the faults of a main player like Rashford.

C Ronaldo is viewed as a great player for United but are the seasons he won the league or CL compared to all the times he didn't? Ronaldo is viewed as a GOAT player now and expecting Rashford to be another Ronaldo is delusional.

What about Ji Sung Park? What about Nani or Tevez? These are players that were either valued as good parts of our squad or even legends later on because of what they helped achieve. (Tevez went down on peoples mind because of him wanting to move to City). The best example is actually Rafael, a RB who had been part of a title winning team and has therefore been heavily overrated ever since he left us even though he has done nothing eversince.

The fact is that Rashford is good enough for a title winning team. He has very good numbers and abilities. However, him being the 2nd or 3rd most important useful player in the whole of squad is not his fault and needs to be addressed. 3 Rashford's capable of playing their position in a front line of 3 would win the league - yet we only have one whilst the rest our front line is inconsistent to a different level (Martial, Greenwood and air hitting sitters for Cavani). Then you look at the squad and apart from Bruno there is no one as important as Rashford currently.

The fact is that people go crazy over players like Neto for wolves and Son for Spurs because they dont care about their title winning ability- yet Rashford comes out with better numbers or near similar numbers at ages similair or younger than the players people salivate over.

United fans need success. He is better than alot of the players we had and used but the people that dont see it will value title winning ability as seen by the players they compare him to.
 
roonster09 said:
Why should he be close to Ronaldo and Rooney? Why are you setting the bar so high? I know we are ManUtd and all that but that doesn't mean every player we have should be at that level. One player is arguably best 3 player to ever play the game and the other is ManUtd and England's highest goal scorer. If that's the standards then we have only 5-10 good players in the world and rest all are bang average PL player level.

Rashford in his first year as consistent starter contributed to 34 goals last season, this season he has 28 goal contributions. Isn't that not contributing well?
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It's a fair point about the Rooney/Ronaldo comparison - he doesn't have to be as good as them to still be a good player, however, you have to remember my post was in response to a bloke who was comparing their goal-scoring records at 23, so it was relevant in the context of that statistical argument.

In response to your point - I want to see PL contributions. I have always said this, you can check my post history for consistency - it is the Premier League where it matters.

I don't care if Rashford can score a quick hattrick against a Leipzig side pushing forward to try and salvage a point in a no-lose scenario or whether he can be effective against a very open Sociedad side. I know he can be a very good player in that scenario, I don't dispute that. In many ways, cup games suit Rashford because teams have to open up at some point.

What I care about is can he start turning in consistent performances against the average/poor sides in the PL that we need to be putting away on a regular basis. Can he be effective against the low-block? Can he still play well and contribute when he isn't scoring goals/getting assists with his all-round game? Can he work harder to press the opposition into mistakes? (I certainly think he can) Can he start scoring back-post tap-ins in ugly 1-0 wins?

This season he has 8 goals and 6 assists in 24 PL games. Is that good enough for you? It's not 'poor' but is it world-class? Is it 'good'? Plus, when Rashford isn't scoring or assisting, his all-round game doesn't hold-up. He's not like a Cavani who can be playing poorly but still be making the opposition work hard with his movement and work-rate. For me, he's very much a boom or bust player, he either turns in really good performances or really bad/ineffective ones, there's never much in-between

Again, I think if I'm thinking about it objectively, I would give Rashford a C+ currently as a United player.
 
Lentwood said:
It's a fair point about the Rooney/Ronaldo comparison - he doesn't have to be as good as them to still be a good player, however, you have to remember my post was in response to a bloke who was comparing their goal-scoring records at 23, so it was relevant in the context of that statistical argument.

In response to your point - I want to see PL contributions. I have always said this, you can check my post history for consistency - it is the Premier League where it matters.

I don't care if Rashford can score a quick hattrick against a Leipzig side pushing forward to try and salvage a point in a no-lose scenario or whether he can be effective against a very open Sociedad side. I know he can be a very good player in that scenario, I don't dispute that. In many ways, cup games suit Rashford because teams have to open up at some point.

What I care about is can he start turning in consistent performances against the average/poor sides in the PL that we need to be putting away on a regular basis. Can he be effective against the low-block? Can he still play well and contribute when he isn't scoring goals/getting assists with his all-round game? Can he work harder to press the opposition into mistakes? (I certainly think he can) Can he start scoring back-post tap-ins in ugly 1-0 wins?

This season he has 8 goals and 6 assists in 24 PL games. Is that good enough for you? It's not 'poor' but is it world-class? Is it 'good'? Plus, when Rashford isn't scoring or assisting, his all-round game doesn't hold-up. He's not like a Cavani who can be playing poorly but still be making the opposition work hard with his movement and work-rate. For me, he's very much a boom or bust player, he either turns in really good performances or really bad/ineffective ones, there's never much in-between

Again, I think if I'm thinking about it objectively, I would give Rashford a C+ currently as a United player.
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See you are contradicting yourself with "What I care about is can he start turning in consistent performances against the average/poor sides in the PL".

Now you are saying how important it's to score against these bottom teams and earlier you downplayed his stats because those were against shit teams.

So, I don’t really like doing this because a PL goal is a PL goal, and who is to say one is more important than another...but let’s take a look at Rashford’s 8 goals in 24 this season, if we’re analysing this stuff in detail. Four of those eight goals have come in three games against Sheffield Utd, Brighton and Newcastle - teams in the bottom 5. One of those goals came in a 9-0 victory against a horribly demoralised, 10-man Southampton team. One was almost certainly an own-goal, albeit a very important one, against Wolves. I’m fairly certain that shot was headed well wide but we won’t really know for sure because of the short trajectory from Rashford’s foot to the Wolves defender.
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If we are talking about PL only,
This season only 8 players have more Goals + Assists than Rashford in PL. He has more than Sterling, KdB, Mane, Laca, Firmino, Auba. He is just 23 years old and all the players who contributed more are much older than him.

If we are talking about Non penalty goals + Assists then only 5 players have more goal contributions than him. He has as many as Salah, more than Sterling, Vardy, KdB and bunch of other very good players.

Last season only 5 players had more G+A than Rashford in PL and none of them were anywhere close to him in the age. He was 22, rest all were 27+
IF we consider only Non penalty goals then only 12 players contributed more and only G.Jesus and Martial were close to him in the age.

So where is this talk of all potential and he is not performing coming from?

Edit: Regarding Ronaldo and Rooney comparison, it's to show how well he has played and all the shit he gets is too much and undeserved.
 
Bebestation said:
Its because people need to feel success to rate Rashford.

Rashford's ability to score/assist 20+ goals a season (and improve on it season per season) is not valued by some fans because it doesn't really lead to the success the fans want. They get frustrated at that and try to pick the faults of a main player like Rashford.

C Ronaldo is viewed as a great player for United but are the seasons he won the league or CL compared to all the times he didn't? Ronaldo is viewed as a GOAT player now and expecting Rashford to be another Ronaldo is delusional.

What about Ji Sung Park? What about Nani or Tevez? These are players that were either valued as good parts of our squad or even legends later on because of what they helped achieve. (Tevez went down on peoples mind because of him wanting to move to City). The best example is actually Rafael, a RB who had been part of a title winning team and has therefore been heavily overrated ever since he left us even though he has done nothing eversince.

The fact is that Rashford is good enough for a title winning team. He has very good numbers and abilities. However, him being the 2nd or 3rd most important useful player in the whole of squad is not his fault and needs to be addressed. 3 Rashford's capable of playing their position in a front line of 3 would win the league - yet we only have one whilst the rest our front line is inconsistent to a different level (Martial, Greenwood and air hitting sitters for Cavani). Then you look at the squad and apart from Bruno there is no one as important as Rashford currently.

The fact is that people go crazy over players like Neto for wolves and Son for Spurs because they dont care about their title winning ability- yet Rashford comes out with better numbers or near similar numbers at ages similair or younger than the players people salivate over.

United fans need success. He is better than alot of the players we had and used but the people that dont see it will value title winning ability as seen by the players they compare him to.
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I agree with most of what you are saying. He should win titles to prove his worth, it's just hilarious that everyone is written off as "not good enough to win the title".

It's like "Was Gerrard not good enough player to win PL title"? Well he sure was, it's just that he never had a team that was good enough to win the title.

Agree with your point that "Rashford shouldn't be 2nd or 3rd most important player". The way we have built squad is just wrong, too much expectations on young players when 99% of young players will be inconsistent.
 
I'll cotton on to what another poster said. Martial is a lost cause. Then re Marcus I'd go as far as to say h'es feckin carried us through a period of 3 different managers. Mourinho referring to him as "the kid" really got my goat. Yet another example of Mourinho's bad man management.
 
roonster09 said:
I agree with most of what you are saying. He should win titles to prove his worth, it's just hilarious that everyone is written off as "not good enough to win the title".

It's like "Was Gerrard not good enough player to win PL title"? Well he sure was, it's just that he never had a team that was good enough to win the title.

Agree with your point that "Rashford shouldn't be 2nd or 3rd most important player". The way we have built squad is just wrong, too much expectations on young players when 99% of young players will be inconsistent.
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It's a bit of a mixed scenario, his questioners want Rashford to win a title to prove his worth inside - yet at the same time it cant be done when Rashford is the 2nd best player at Manchester United.
 
acnumber9 said:
Mmm. Sterling has scored 43 and assisted 20 since the start of last season. Rashford has scored 39 and assisted 24. So he kind of has, while playing for a worse team.

Salah has 47 goals and 17 assists in the same time period so directly involved in one goal more for the extra game time he’s had while also taking more penalties and also playing for a better team.

Neither player has to contend with breaking their back during that time period. Who should we compare him to? Son? It’s the same story.
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Ooh. Good stats. Had no idea he was running Salah that close. I’ve been massively underestimating his productivity.
 
Bebestation said:
If Pep could swap Rashford for Sterling he would.

One is more David Villa like on the left with the ability to dribble and take inverted shots. Sterling is largely a tap in player when playing out on the left, something Rashford has done before and can do in a possession team like Peps.
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Is Rashford a better dribbler than Sterling?When his running at players he more often than not seems rather clumsy by over running the ball or trying to literally run through people.
 
I believe its far more important to have team that is functioning very well as unit than to have attackers that score 25+ goals. (if the team is functioning well then a prolific attacker will take us to the next level)

Rashford is doing well this year overall despite his inconsistent form, if the team is functioning as a unit, then you'd expect the other forwards to have better numbers than they have now.

we cant expect more from Rashford (although we hope he can improve of course), hence he is not a problem at all.

Martial on the other hand is indeed a problem this season and if he doesn't turn it around and redeem himself i'm afraid there will be a need to replace him, for now Cavani's presence is helping the team but it isn't a sustainable solution.
 
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Lentwood said:
This season he has 8 goals and 6 assists in 24 PL games. Is that good enough for you?
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Transfermarkt has it as 8 goals and 8 assists (they have a list of the games if you wanna double check them) in 1949 minutes, that's a goal contribution once every 122 minutes. Considering he has been wasteful this season, more than usual in fact, I think that bodes very fecking well for the future. I'd be much more worried if he wasn't getting into those positions and getting those chances.

As a 23 year old wide forward in the PL? Perfect? no, World Class? no, but no-one is calling him those things.
 
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He is a very very good youngster but he needs to work on his finishing. He should have scored three v Real S and he is a average finisher at best. I have been in his corner and still am but he needs to become a better finisher.
 
I honestly had no idea his stats were that good, I knew he was doing very well but I didn't expect to see him right up there with two of the best players we've ever had.
 
roonster09 said:
See you are contradicting yourself with "What I care about is can he start turning in consistent performances against the average/poor sides in the PL".

Now you are saying how important it's to score against these bottom teams and earlier you downplayed his stats because those were against shit teams.



If we are talking about PL only,
This season only 8 players have more Goals + Assists than Rashford in PL. He has more than Sterling, KdB, Mane, Laca, Firmino, Auba. He is just 23 years old and all the players who contributed more are much older than him.

If we are talking about Non penalty goals + Assists then only 5 players have more goal contributions than him. He has as many as Salah, more than Sterling, Vardy, KdB and bunch of other very good players.

Last season only 5 players had more G+A than Rashford in PL and none of them were anywhere close to him in the age. He was 22, rest all were 27+
IF we consider only Non penalty goals then only 12 players contributed more and only G.Jesus and Martial were close to him in the age.

So where is this talk of all potential and he is not performing coming from?

Edit: Regarding Ronaldo and Rooney comparison, it's to show how well he has played and all the shit he gets is too much and undeserved.
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How much of that comes from playing for a club who dominate the ball in the majority of matches we play though?

Seriously, I’m not on the wind-up here but wouldn’t you expect a Manchester United forward to get some goals and some assists? Like, if we swapped Rashford for any top half forward/wide forward wouldn’t they get at least 5/6 goals and 5/6 assists in 24 games? How many goals/assists would Richarlison, DCL, Grealish, Callum Wilson, Danny Ings, Raul Jimenez, Pedro Neto etc...get in our team? I’d bet good money all of them would have at least 5/10 in 24 league games...so sorry I just don’t think its anything special. It’s “par” at best.

I appreciate my post might APPEAR contradictory but my point about the goals against the bottom five is that’s fine but it’s not enough to standout and he hasn’t scored or played well in the big PL games this season.

In fact, to be clear, I would absolutely love a flat track bully now. If someone came in who did nothing but scored 15/20 tap-ins against the bottom half teams I would be all over that.

If i’m annoying you I don’t mean to - I’d just like to know, how do you see Rashford right now? I’m genuinely interested
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
Transfermarkt has it as 8 goals and 8 assists (they have a list of the games if you wanna double check them) in 1949 minutes, that's a goal contribution once every 122 minutes. Considering he has been wasteful this season, more than usual in fact, I think that bodes very fecking well for the future. I'd be much more worried if he wasn't getting into those positions and getting those chances.

As a 23 year old wide forward in the PL? Perfect? no, World Class? no, but no-one is calling him those things.
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I used PremierLeague.com which is what I always use, just comes up first in Google

This is my point though mate - people ARE calling him world-class, lots of people.

What’s funny is that if pundits were calling Rashford crap, I would be on here defending him like the rest of you. I’d be saying he’s not crap, he’s very good against teams that give him space to attack, just not great against the low-block.

For me, it’s about matching a players actual ability to the actual perceived ability of those players. I think we have a few criminally underrated players (McTom, Shaw, AWB) and a few criminally overrated (Rashford, Martial, De Gea).

That doesn’t mean I think Rashford and Martial are crap. I just think a genuinely world class goalscorer would make a massive difference in this team
 
Lentwood said:
How much of that comes from playing for a club who dominate the ball in the majority of matches we play though?

Seriously, I’m not on the wind-up here but wouldn’t you expect a Manchester United forward to get some goals and some assists? Like, if we swapped Rashford for any top half forward/wide forward wouldn’t they get at least 5/6 goals and 5/6 assists in 24 games? How many goals/assists would Richarlison, DCL, Grealish, Callum Wilson, Danny Ings, Raul Jimenez, Pedro Neto etc...get in our team? I’d bet good money all of them would have at least 5/10 in 24 league games...so sorry I just don’t think its anything special. It’s “par” at best.

I appreciate my post might APPEAR contradictory but my point about the goals against the bottom five is that’s fine but it’s not enough to standout and he hasn’t scored or played well in the big PL games this season.

In fact, to be clear, I would absolutely love a flat track bully now. If someone came in who did nothing but scored 15/20 tap-ins against the bottom half teams I would be all over that.

If i’m annoying you I don’t mean to - I’d just like to know, how do you see Rashford right now? I’m genuinely interested
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What do you mean by "How much of that comes from playing for a club who dominate the ball in the majority of matches we play though?" ?

I see Rashford as very good young player who can improve a lot especially when he starts to mix his game well. Right now I see him as one of the best wide players in the league and his numbers back that up. We saw Lingard struggling at ManUtd and then playing well at West Ham. So maybe if the players you mentioned are signed, they might not live up to expectation with all the added pressure and lack of space.

I don't know how many goals the players you mentioned would get in our team, all I Know is Rashford is among the top 10 when it comes to goals+assists in the league and when it comes to all competitions, only Bruno, Kane, Salah has more goal contributions than him (maybe I'm forgetting one more player)

Honestly I feel there is lot of mental gymnastics to play down his records, even the level headed posters made very weird posts.

You didn't annoy me btw, with every post I'm thinking "this guy has moved the goal posts again and made one more contradictory post".
 
roonster09 said:
What do you mean by "How much of that comes from playing for a club who dominate the ball in the majority of matches we play though?" ?

I see Rashford as very good young player who can improve a lot especially when he starts to mix his game well. Right now I see him as one of the best wide players in the league and his numbers back that up. We saw Lingard struggling at ManUtd and then playing well at West Ham. So maybe if the players you mentioned are signed, they might not live up to expectation with all the added pressure and lack of space.

I don't know how many goals the players you mentioned would get in our team, all I Know is Rashford is among the top 10 when it comes to goals+assists in the league and when it comes to all competitions, only Bruno, Kane, Salah has more goal contributions than him (maybe I'm forgetting one more player)

Honestly I feel there is lot of mental gymnastics to play down his records, even the level headed posters made very weird posts.

You didn't annoy me btw, with every post I'm thinking "this guy has moved the goal posts again and making one more contradictory post".
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I don’t think its fair to say I’m moving the goalposts - that accusation gets thrown around a lot on this forum but you have to remember that posters are responding to other posters. So I went down the stats route in response to that guy comparing Rashford to Rooney and Ronaldo - and the point of that was, don’t get too bogged down in just statistics without context, which is now kind of exactly what we’re in danger of doing again.

What I mean by “a team who dominate the ball” really should have just read “a team who expect to be on the front-foot most of the time and should in theory create better chances for the forwards. For example, surely scoring 25 for Newcastle is better than scoring 25 for City, just to pull a random example out of the air. But then again, who’s to say as you rightly point out that those players wouldn’t struggle (like I believe Rashford does) against a low-block? They might well do.

In fact, maybe I can concede and agree that perhaps Martial and Rashford are a problem (thread topic) because they are too similar and we can’t mix our attacking play up much? Maybe having a big battering ram like a DCL would help them? Surely it would add an extra dimension as low-block teams would be vulnerable to crosses into the big man so might have to push up and leave a bit more space? Who knows?
 
I just don't understand the comparisons Sterling / Rashford both good players. Sterling has played for a club who have provided a better infrastructure for success compared to United. He's played under arguably the best manager of the last decade while Rashford has played under what I'd consider one good coach for 12 months in LVG. Development and progression will favour Sterling under these circumstances I still however feel Rashford has a higher ceiling.

If you put Rashford under a world class manager with an ethos on attacking play and a basic understanding of movement to maintain possession (coaching responsibility) I believe he will edge Raheem in productivity.
 
Lentwood said:
I don’t think its fair to say I’m moving the goalposts - that accusation gets thrown around a lot on this forum but you have to remember that posters are responding to other posters. So I went down the stats route in response to that guy comparing Rashford to Rooney and Ronaldo - and the point of that was, don’t get too bogged down in just statistics without context, which is now kind of exactly what we’re in danger of doing again.

What I mean by “a team who dominate the ball” really should have just read “a team who expect to be on the front-foot most of the time and should in theory create better chances for the forwards. For example, surely scoring 25 for Newcastle is better than scoring 25 for City, just to pull a random example out of the air. But then again, who’s to say as you rightly point out that those players wouldn’t struggle (like I believe Rashford does) against a low-block? They might well do.

In fact, maybe I can concede and agree that perhaps Martial and Rashford are a problem (thread topic) because they are too similar and we can’t mix our attacking play up much? Maybe having a big battering ram like a DCL would help them? Surely it would add an extra dimension as low-block teams would be vulnerable to crosses into the big man so might have to push up and leave a bit more space? Who knows?
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You post flow was
Lets breakdown his goal stats, see how many he scored against bottom 5 teams. When presented with his goal contributions which showed how good his record was, you wanted PL record and how you rate scoring against bottom teams more than him scoring in CL.

Then when you asked for PL stats and presented with one, which showed him in 8th best or 5th best (depending on whether you take penalty goal counts), you went with well how many would random player x would have scored in our team, completely discarding Rashford's record which is up there with the best players in the league.
 
roonster09 said:
You post flow was
Lets breakdown his goal stats, see how many he scored against bottom 5 teams. When presented with his goal contributions which showed how good his record was, you wanted PL record and how you rate scoring against bottom teams more than him scoring in CL.

Then when you asked for PL stats and presented with one, which showed him in 8th best or 5th best (depending on whether you take penalty goal counts), you went with well how many would random player x would have scored in our team, completely discarding Rashford's record which is up there with the best players in the league.
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My response initially to another poster was “your comparisons with Rooney and Ronaldo are flawed” and I explained the reasons for that. I then said “I don’t like doing this...” and made the point that IF we’re going to go solely down the stats route then let’s pick apart where those goals are coming from. As you say, and as I said at the time, that’s not really very fair because a PL goal is valuable however or wherever it comes.

If I were to turn this back on you, I’d say it appears to me like I keep making points about why we shouldn’t just look at stats without context and you keep coming back with more stats. I know the stats, I can google them.

However, as I have also acknowledged, if a players stats are insane, you don’t care when or how they are achieved. Take Bruno. Absolutely god-awful at times in matches, beyond horrible, has rank bad spells - but then scores or assists out of nowhere. His stats are insane, so I let him off. 50 goal contributions since January is outrageous so to criticise his all-round game is unfair. If Rashford scores 20 PL goals this season and gets 10+ assists you won’t hear a single peep from me about his constant bad decisions and losing possession etc...because I would acknowledge its well worth it.

However, his stats are not “insane” - we might disagree on whether they are OK, good or very good but they are clearly not “insane”. So forget the stats for a minute, is his all round game “world-class” or even “very good” - I would say “no”, you would say “yes”, nobody ever wins the argument and we’re probably back on stats by the next post
 
Lentwood said:
How much of that comes from playing for a club who dominate the ball in the majority of matches we play though?

Seriously, I’m not on the wind-up here but wouldn’t you expect a Manchester United forward to get some goals and some assists? Like, if we swapped Rashford for any top half forward/wide forward wouldn’t they get at least 5/6 goals and 5/6 assists in 24 games? How many goals/assists would Richarlison, DCL, Grealish, Callum Wilson, Danny Ings, Raul Jimenez, Pedro Neto etc...get in our team? I’d bet good money all of them would have at least 5/10 in 24 league games...so sorry I just don’t think its anything special. It’s “par” at best.

I appreciate my post might APPEAR contradictory but my point about the goals against the bottom five is that’s fine but it’s not enough to standout and he hasn’t scored or played well in the big PL games this season.

In fact, to be clear, I would absolutely love a flat track bully now. If someone came in who did nothing but scored 15/20 tap-ins against the bottom half teams I would be all over that.

If i’m annoying you I don’t mean to - I’d just like to know, how do you see Rashford right now? I’m genuinely interested
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Its funny. One moment we are a team that has no coaching, tactics of a gym teacher and relate on individuals ability- the next time players like Neto, Richarlison and Callum wilson can come in to our team and score the same or more goals that Rashford does.

Delusion.

On individual ability nothing you say is good enough - like Callum wilson.
 
rollingstoned1 said:
there is no moaning there other than what you want to see, those stats do show that Sterling has produced more than Rashford in a better team no less. And you omitted the previous season too where he scored 30 goals.

It is not an excuse but a fact, people admit city are a better team and want to claim that that counts in Rashford's favor while also saying that which is patently false. Before Bruno arrived you could claim that was how we were set up too, so do you want to judge rashford even more harshly?
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But only had 10 assists, for a total of 40 goal contributions, same as in 2017-18. He played 500 minutes less in 17-18, though, so I went with that season because it made his average numbers better.

It's an excuse when the player in question clearly isn't "just a cog." And where did I say City's team was built to get the best out of Sterling? I said he was one of their main attacking outlets and benefited greatly from their tactics. And even if you might disagree, you sure as shit don't get to claim he was stifled by them, because if there's any claim that's patently false, that would be it.

And sure, you could claim we were set up that way that I never claimed City were set up before Bruno arrived. You'd be wrong, but you could definitely make the claim. It all depends on how willing you are to expose the fact that you're full of shit.
 
Lentwood said:
My response initially to another poster was “your comparisons with Rooney and Ronaldo are flawed” and I explained the reasons for that. I then said “I don’t like doing this...” and made the point that IF we’re going to go solely down the stats route then let’s pick apart where those goals are coming from. As you say, and as I said at the time, that’s not really very fair because a PL goal is valuable however or wherever it comes.

If I were to turn this back on you, I’d say it appears to me like I keep making points about why we shouldn’t just look at stats without context and you keep coming back with more stats. I know the stats, I can google them.

However, as I have also acknowledged, if a players stats are insane, you don’t care when or how they are achieved. Take Bruno. Absolutely god-awful at times in matches, beyond horrible, has rank bad spells - but then scores or assists out of nowhere. His stats are insane, so I let him off. 50 goal contributions since January is outrageous so to criticise his all-round game is unfair. If Rashford scores 20 PL goals this season and gets 10+ assists you won’t hear a single peep from me about his constant bad decisions and losing possession etc...because I would acknowledge its well worth it.

However, his stats are not “insane” - we might disagree on whether they are OK, good or very good but they are clearly not “insane”. So forget the stats for a minute, is his all round game “world-class” or even “very good” - I would say “no”, you would say “yes”, nobody ever wins the argument and we’re probably back on stats by the next post
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No one said he is perfect, that doesn't mean he isn't good player, even better when you take his age into consideration.

People talk about this "overall game", then instead of just eye test, check the stats (as no one watches every game of every player), you would see he loses ball less than Sterling and Salah (unsuccessful touches and dispossessed) and then you check the dribbling stats, he makes more dribbles and at better success rate. So maybe it's not the player, it's the micro analysis and the expectations on players to be near perfect in every move is the problem.

So now, initially you start with "it's not about stats" this after asking for bunch of stats and then end the post saying "if he has better stats then he will got lot of leeway from me". If 20 goals + 10 assists is your benchmark then we won't have a good player in our squad and 98% of the players in the league won't be good enough and that includes the best players in the league,.

Just to show how ridiculous or how high the bench mark is, that 20 goals + 10 assists
- Mane did it 0 times
- Sterling did it 0 times
- Salah did it 1 time
- KdB did it 1 times (13 goals + 20 assists)
- Kane did it 0 times
- Son did it 0 times
- Bale did it 0 times
- Auba did it 0 times

Arguably the greatest PL player did it twice and the contender for that award, Ronaldo did it 0 times.

So in order to win your trust, Rashford should have a season that would put him among the best ever players to play in PL in the last 10-15 years.
 
roonster09 said:
No one said he is perfect, that doesn't mean he isn't good player, even better when you take his age into consideration.

People talk about this "overall game", then instead of just eye test, check the stats (as no one watches every game of every player), you would see he loses ball less than Sterling and Salah (unsuccessful touches and dispossessed) and then you check the dribbling stats, he makes more dribbles and at better success rate. So maybe it's not the player, it's the micro analysis and the expectations on players to be near perfect in every move is the problem.

So now, initially you start with "it's not about stats" this after asking for bunch of stats and then end the post saying "if he has better stats then he will got lot of leeway from me". If 20 goals + 10 assists is your benchmark then we won't have a good player in our squad and 98% of the players in the league won't be good enough and that includes the best players in the league,.

Just to show how ridiculous or how high the bench mark is, that 20 goals + 10 assists
- Mane did it 0 times
- Sterling did it 0 times
- Salah did it 1 time
- KdB did it 1 times (13 goals + 20 assists)
- Kane did it 0 times
- Son did it 0 times
- Bale did it 0 times
- Auba did it 0 times

Arguably the greatest PL player did it twice and the contender for that award, Ronaldo did it 0 times.

So in order to win your trust, Rashford should have a season that would put him among the best ever players to play in PL in the last 10-15 years.
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Where do I say that he has to do that to win my trust? In fact, I think its fairly obvious I was using those stats as example of “insane” stats that I would accept unquestionably.

My point being of course, if Rashford posts insane stats, I’ll accept those stats as being proof he is very good

If his stats are mediocre/good/great then there HAS to be an element of the “eye test” because there is no conclusive way of giving a player a definitive rating based on stats. If there were, the game would be very easy for Scouts and Managers!

Let’s turn this argument around - I am making the statement “Lampard and Gerrard were miles better than Paul Scholes” - prove me wrong. The obvious trap being whatever you say there, I’ll just respond by saying Lampard and Gerrard had better stats, so they win (even though I don’t believe that for a second)
 
Lentwood said:
Where do I say that he has to do that to win my trust? In fact, I think its fairly obvious I was using those stats as example of “insane” stats that I would accept unquestionably.

My point being of course, if Rashford posts insane stats, I’ll accept those stats as being proof he is very good

If his stats are mediocre/good/great then there HAS to be an element of the “eye test” because there is no conclusive way of giving a player a definitive rating based on stats. If there were, the game would be very easy for Scouts and Managers!
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So to accept he is very good player unquestionably he should post insane stats that was achieved once or twice in last 10-15 years and even the best of the players struggled to put. OK :lol:
 
Rashford is very average in the league until he learns to pass the fecking ball. The few times he's decided to lift his head rather than try to be Mbappe, he's notched an assist more often than not.
 
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