Well, it’s early days since they made those signings (had the ban last year) so, yeah, we'll see at the end of the season. They need to sort their defending out. I’m not convinced by Frank either, just one thing that managers are always judged by is their signings and they look good.
Rank the PL coaches
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I'm sure if Ole had signed - Haaland (we know he wanted him) Sancho (he certainly wanted him too) Bruno, Telles, AWB then you could compare who did better business.
If me Aunty had b*llocks etc
David Moyes at United has similar stats to Lampard at Chelsea. That should tell you everything. Both 51% win rate, Lampard with a 30% loss rate, Moyes 31%. Moyes had us defending better too, as astonishing as that sounds. Lampard has Chelsea conceding 1.4 goals per game.
They had the ban alright but as mentioned above, their defending is horrible. He is certainly building from the front, not like Ole who tried to start from the back. We might not be perfect defensively but we're way ahead of Chelsea I think, so even considering the ban they have signed favourable attackers... we haven't done that. If we they do better than us, it just could be because we lack those classic aunty b*llocks that anyone need to get over the line.
Solskjaer has a lot more money to spend on better players; that doesn't make him a better manager.
If Brighton had the money to spend an average of £130m every summer, don't you think they would have better attackers? And if they had better attackers, they probably would have beaten us, Chelsea, and Crystal Palace. Having more money doesn't make you a better manager.
Potter has Brighton dominating top sides in terms of possession with average players. The thing that is holding them back is not having good enough attackers, but that is a limitation of funds and should not be used to lower a manager's rating. Their average possession this season is 57.25%, which is ridiculously high for a club of their stature when you consider they have played Manutd, Chelsea, and Everton.
I think Potter is really showing the ability of a top manager.
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My ranking was based on assumed discernable ability to coach a system/pattern of play/etc. Not a manager as a whole. As I have stated in earlier posts, I rate OGS highly as a man manager and he is much better suited to our club than Moyes due to a pragmatic/defensive approach does not suit the goals of the club nor the abilities of most of our key attacking players.
As you have stated, different managers are suited to different jobs. And it is difficult to quantify a managers ability in all areas and rank them accordingly. Hence I proposed a ranking based on one specific element. Does that ranking reflect how I would rank him in relation to suitability as a manager for MUFC? No. He would easily be in the top 10. Would the ranking for OGS suitability as a manager for MUFC be the same for OGS as a manager for the likes of Burnley? No. Then I would rank him close to bottom due to the needs of Burnley, their playing squad and their current style of play. Hodgson and Moyes would suit the likes of Burnley.
You miss the point with Arteta. You say he hasn't achieved anything?
He beat Man City and Chelsea on the way to winning the FA CUP after less than 20 games in charge. Pochettino for example won nothing in 4 years at Spurs which shows what an achievement it was.
You missed the context of my post. He has not achieved anything significant to be put as a Top 6 manager or even in top 10. I know Arteta winning the FA cup was amazing but the way Ole overcame 15 points to finish 3rd was also amazing, the way lampard after losing hazard and having a transfer ban finishing 4th was also significant. Just because arteta won the FA cup doesn't suddenly make him him a top 10 manager.
Also just to spoil your party Pochettino is much better manager than Arteta (so far at least).
More and more teams in England opt for some kind of possession based football (compared to before, when most "lesser" teams would opt for, well, less ambitious tactics).
Norwich were in the top half * last season in terms of possession. They finished dead last, though, hopelessly adrift.
Of course, you could argue that Farke did everything right and simply had a shite group of players to work with. We'll see how he fares this season, I guess.
* 8th, to be exact.
I not Ole's #1 fan manager wise, but that BS of the highest order mate, smith who barely just survived due to losing 21 games the third highest in the league last season and winning only 9 despite spending 133 million, and you have him placed higher, nah not for me.
Worth remembering that Arteta took over Arsenal in December. 61% win rate is bloody impressive to be fair. He's also managed to turn around Arsenals defense pretty quickly too. I've been impressed with what he's done, still early days mind.
Manager | Games (All Comps) | W | D | L | CS | GF | GA | GD | Win % | Draw % | Loss % |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Arteta | 36 | 22 | 6 | 8 | 14 | 56 | 33 | +23 | 61% | 17% | 22% |
Ole | 97 | 55 | 19 | 23 | 36 | 176 | 99 | +77 | 57% | 20% | 24% |
Lampard | 63 | 32 | 12 | 19 | 16 | 122 | 89 | +33 | 51% | 19% | 30% |
*sorted by win %
I agree but Lampard 18, Ole 19, Jose 20
Again I am not saying he has not done a good job. The point of argument is this short stats doesn't put him in a top 6. Not too difficult to understand.
I'm probably biased to be fair because I think people overrate Lampard. Think he's awful personally.
But I agree with you on the overrating of Arteta, can't be having him in the top 6 having only managed 36 games.
I always say this
Lampard : the most protected manager by the media
Ole: the most abused
Where’s Parker
I dont careWhere’s Parker
True he doesn’t deserve to be in this league anyway.I dont care
Fair enough, but even then there are many factors in place outside of just coaching. How long has he been there? What players does he have available? Do those players suit his goals in terms of playing style?
For example if a team concedes a lot of goals/chances it could be reasonable to suggest there are problems with the defensive coaching of that team. Or you could suggest they dont have the right players, the players are an ill fit for that tactic or the tactical set up is not good enough. Last year for example we conceded way to many goals from set pieces and corners. Does that mean our defensive coaching was bad? Not necessarily. De Gea almost never comes off his line, other teams knows this so they will often try and hit the ball into the 6 yard box, which very often becomes very dangerous because just the slightest touch can lead to a goal
Start of last season we could not even score in a brothel. Bruno arrives and what do you know? We start scoring again. I dont think that is because our attacking coaching suddenly turned good, but because Bruno is about a million times better than Lindgard/Pereira
I dont know man. Maybe my understanind is just shite, but i could never make a list like that
Just my opinion, I like Smith, I think their signings last season were pretty good and they lined up reasonably well. Most teams spend when coming up from the Championship, but for Villa they had a lot of loan players like Tammy Abraham and Tuanzabe, so they had to spend on players like Konsa and Wesley as replacements. Their other signings like Mings, Douglas Luiz were largely all good.
They did struggle last season but they started off a lot better than they finished - and that was largely due to injuries. Mcginn, Wesley and Heaton all got long injuries - and that significantly weakened them. Especially up front - Samatta and Davies couldn't score a goal between them. They relied heavily on Graelish and Trezegurt sneaking goals in.
This season I think they've done the best business in the league relative to where they were last season. Watkins I think has a great all round game, and then you have Cash, Barley, Martinez and Troare, with Mcginn coming back from injury.
Of course I have to say this is tempered based on expectations - Dean Smith isnt a CL or title chasing manager, so I give him props for doing well relative to the team he has. Whereas for Ole, he's not a bad manager, but the expectation is higher and he's just not shown anything yet. He is taking us in the right direction but I can't shake the feeling it'll all fall of a cliff at a point in the future.
What a load of rubbish. Since his spending £200m+ this window, the media's go-to line concerning Lampard has been "no more excuses now" (and if you haven't heard that exact line repeatedly, you can't have consumed much media at all). If his achieving CL qualification last season needed so much "excusing", surely an Ole being judged by similar standards would have been ridiculed for merely doing the same, at his second attempt, after spending £200m. Instead, he widely garnered (just about deserved, imo) praise for turning it around and getting top four.
If Lampard's still struggling next year after spending another £100m I doubt I'll be able to turn on Sky Sports and hear pundits telling people he still "needs time" and/or that he's "been let down by the board" because they didn't buy him another £100m player on top too! That's protection.
Which media outlet are you following! Please let me know too.
Not true.
He definitely gets more protection in comparison to Ole. Nothing not true about that unless one wants to live in denial.
1. Klopp
2. Espirito Santo
3. Bielsa
4. Guardiola
5. Mourinho
6. Ancelotti
7. Rodgers
8. Wilder
9. Hasenhuttl
10. Potter
11. Dyche
12. Hodgson
13. Solskjaer
14. Bilic
15. Lampard
16. Smith
17. Parker
18. Bruce
19. Moyes
UNKNOWN. Arteta
2. Espirito Santo
3. Bielsa
4. Guardiola
5. Mourinho
6. Ancelotti
7. Rodgers
8. Wilder
9. Hasenhuttl
10. Potter
11. Dyche
12. Hodgson
13. Solskjaer
14. Bilic
15. Lampard
16. Smith
17. Parker
18. Bruce
19. Moyes
UNKNOWN. Arteta
Different people in the media say different things. I don't think you can claim any unreasonable protection for Ole, unless the context is just a vague comparison to Lampard. To prove Ole receives massive pressure just look after the first two games. Chelsea had 3 points United had 3 points, yet already Ole might be out of a job soon was what the discussion was about. Didn't hear a lot about Lampard then, but maybe I haven't seen every report on it? That perspective got pushed hard after getting a real boost from us losing to Tottenham in a spectacular fashion. Chelsea drew against a bottom team, once again I didn't hear much about Lampard losing his job because of it.
After we won against Newcastle and PSG while you drew to Southampton and Sevilla things have cooled off from Ole, but it was hectic initially despite not much difference in results to Lampard. It's not inconceivable to expect the media pressure on Lampard to be turned up quite a bit if they don't win tomorrow. If Chelsea lose and the pressure wont arrive then your initial point has been proven way wrong.
Great Managers:
Klopp - Better in Europe than Pep and 98% as good a league manager
Guardiola - See above
Bielsa - Drops to 3rd because he's volatile, which is like being injury prone when you're a manager
Solid at a plan A that is relatively attacking so could be a big team coach and do well for a while:
Hasenhuttl - I like how Soton play
Ancelotti - Solid, not an idiot, players like him
Rodgers - Probably shouldn't have fallen love with 3 at the back but basically a B+ attacking coach which is pretty good
Potter - His team might be the best coached in their first 2/3rds in the Prem but he keeps using Connolly instead of demanding some sort of giant striker to turn their possession into crossing or finding a way to make it work with more 1-2s out wide and I don't like that, but obviously he doesn't have a ton of talent.
I have no idea anymore:
Mourinho - I don't find Spurs impressive but he's done well
Solid at a plan A that is relatively defensive so could be a mid-table coach and do well for a while, or even a strong season or two for a big club if they had the right veterans and positional types to fit in their system:
Espirito Santo - Tops this list because he's shown flexibility going from playing without wingers when it made sense to back to playing with them
Wilder - His team should suffer from being probably the 2nd slowest in the Prem after Burnley but they don't. Points for innovation especially in an era when 2 rock-solid CBs are hard to find and in his system you really only need one sweeper type and then 2 mobile CBs who can play and those are just more common these days (Shaw, Lindelof and Rojo would all do well for him for instance)
Dyche - They stay up, but he loses points for me for not even trying to find a solution at the wing opposite McNeil. Uses his strikers decently.
Hodgson - Failed at Liverpool but Palace are solid every weak and he's not afraid to try new or young players and picks his team more on merit than most
Can win a big game and aren't shambolic but not really a fan:
Solskjaer - He could join the above group I think in time at his next, smaller, job if he embraces an identity as a defensive coach who gets more than most out of his 2 strikers in a 3-5-2 or 4-4-2
Can't win a big game but aren't shambolic but not really a fan:
Moyes - Keeps dropping Diop for reasons unknown and has no idea what to do with the useful Haller, but otherwise decent. Not enough upsets or consistency post-Everton to be in the defensive Plan A group
Bruce - Should really be in the defensive group considering the fine job he's done at Newcastle but I assume that ranking won't look good in a year.
Just a guy:
Bilic - Sure
Smith - Has talent this year and will get some results. Gets points for finding a working CB pairing but they aren't exactly reinventing the wheel tactically. Teams plays hard.
Parker - Doesn't look good so far and he's done the "play 2 fullbacks on one wing and hope that works" thing when it hasn't for anyone since Emery had Gaya/Mathieu going a decade back in like 2011
Can't say yet:
Arteta - Promising!
Lampard - I think he's smart and rates the right players generally, but I have no idea if he's going to be a good manager or end up as a DOF
Klopp - Better in Europe than Pep and 98% as good a league manager
Guardiola - See above
Bielsa - Drops to 3rd because he's volatile, which is like being injury prone when you're a manager
Solid at a plan A that is relatively attacking so could be a big team coach and do well for a while:
Hasenhuttl - I like how Soton play
Ancelotti - Solid, not an idiot, players like him
Rodgers - Probably shouldn't have fallen love with 3 at the back but basically a B+ attacking coach which is pretty good
Potter - His team might be the best coached in their first 2/3rds in the Prem but he keeps using Connolly instead of demanding some sort of giant striker to turn their possession into crossing or finding a way to make it work with more 1-2s out wide and I don't like that, but obviously he doesn't have a ton of talent.
I have no idea anymore:
Mourinho - I don't find Spurs impressive but he's done well
Solid at a plan A that is relatively defensive so could be a mid-table coach and do well for a while, or even a strong season or two for a big club if they had the right veterans and positional types to fit in their system:
Espirito Santo - Tops this list because he's shown flexibility going from playing without wingers when it made sense to back to playing with them
Wilder - His team should suffer from being probably the 2nd slowest in the Prem after Burnley but they don't. Points for innovation especially in an era when 2 rock-solid CBs are hard to find and in his system you really only need one sweeper type and then 2 mobile CBs who can play and those are just more common these days (Shaw, Lindelof and Rojo would all do well for him for instance)
Dyche - They stay up, but he loses points for me for not even trying to find a solution at the wing opposite McNeil. Uses his strikers decently.
Hodgson - Failed at Liverpool but Palace are solid every weak and he's not afraid to try new or young players and picks his team more on merit than most
Can win a big game and aren't shambolic but not really a fan:
Solskjaer - He could join the above group I think in time at his next, smaller, job if he embraces an identity as a defensive coach who gets more than most out of his 2 strikers in a 3-5-2 or 4-4-2
Can't win a big game but aren't shambolic but not really a fan:
Moyes - Keeps dropping Diop for reasons unknown and has no idea what to do with the useful Haller, but otherwise decent. Not enough upsets or consistency post-Everton to be in the defensive Plan A group
Bruce - Should really be in the defensive group considering the fine job he's done at Newcastle but I assume that ranking won't look good in a year.
Just a guy:
Bilic - Sure
Smith - Has talent this year and will get some results. Gets points for finding a working CB pairing but they aren't exactly reinventing the wheel tactically. Teams plays hard.
Parker - Doesn't look good so far and he's done the "play 2 fullbacks on one wing and hope that works" thing when it hasn't for anyone since Emery had Gaya/Mathieu going a decade back in like 2011
Can't say yet:
Arteta - Promising!
Lampard - I think he's smart and rates the right players generally, but I have no idea if he's going to be a good manager or end up as a DOF
Yeah this is a circle jerk for the plastic brigade
Well Frank has never had a pundit campaign for his contract extension on live TV....
He got a bit of leeway before he had a transfer window, now he's (rightly) being scrutinized after poor result just like everyone else. Ole was getting his hole licked during his interim spell, it was similarly after he had a transfer window he started being treated like the rest of them.
Another Ole bashing thread.
Isn't it ironic how the same posters are rating other managers for showing promise in a difficult position but the same is not extended for our own manager? I mean he is at United and spent x amount. He should be getting us a title otherwise he is shite.
Let's ignore tangible progress/tactical advances and the fact that he got us 3rd with gaping holes in our squad because he is just a good people manager. This is the latest excuse now. Before this it was can't beat low blocks; Or he can't compete tactically with the best (having beaten City Chelsea and PSG twice last year), or its just Bruno effect or players finally playing well or its just Newcastle. It boggles me how people can come up with these "opinions" and try to pass it off as facts - a lot of posts on this thread assuming Ole is just somebody to please others and keep them happy - this is an opinion. In fact on basis of points /hoh/tactics (i.e actual data points that can be used for analysis) one could argue Ole is actually doing a good job and he's one of our own! Support him you nincompoops!
Isn't it ironic how the same posters are rating other managers for showing promise in a difficult position but the same is not extended for our own manager? I mean he is at United and spent x amount. He should be getting us a title otherwise he is shite.
Let's ignore tangible progress/tactical advances and the fact that he got us 3rd with gaping holes in our squad because he is just a good people manager. This is the latest excuse now. Before this it was can't beat low blocks; Or he can't compete tactically with the best (having beaten City Chelsea and PSG twice last year), or its just Bruno effect or players finally playing well or its just Newcastle. It boggles me how people can come up with these "opinions" and try to pass it off as facts - a lot of posts on this thread assuming Ole is just somebody to please others and keep them happy - this is an opinion. In fact on basis of points /hoh/tactics (i.e actual data points that can be used for analysis) one could argue Ole is actually doing a good job and he's one of our own! Support him you nincompoops!
It more impressive when you realize that 20% of Arteta's games were against Liverpool and Man City.
Quality control
I have no idea what to say about Parker tbh.
Others:
Tier A. World class. Top managers who make teams better than they are. Excellent in every area of manager's job.
Mourinho
Klopp
Pep
Ancelotti
Bielsa
Tier B. Very good managers who are talented enough but not top class managers.
Rodgers
Santo
Hasenhutl
Tier C. Solid, average managers who are good for specific job in middle table club. Not so much tactically strong but they know basic stuff. And little more than that.
Hodgson
Dyche
Wilder
Potter
Bruce
Bilic
Smith
Moyes
Promising managers. They have something but still early to say where they will belong.
Arteta and Lampard.
Tier D. Out of depth on higher level of football. Managers for clubs in minor leagues.
You know the name
Just wanted to remind all of you how clueless you are.
I stand by what I wrote. Keep enjoying being condescending.
Stand by with what I wrote. Needed 1 point from 2 CL games to get us to the KO rounds and he blew it
Because that's the criteria to rank PL coaches, especially considering our group
I updated Ole to the 9th best in another thread in November and am now firmly Ole in. So instead of being a sad guy rummaging through threads because you want to vindicate yourself in some weird way using posts from October, take your mass quoting and do one.
Like seriously, we’re joint top and you want to wind up fellow United fans using posts from months ago? While opposition fans are finding anything they can get their hands on to put us down most likely out of fear?
The worst and saddest part is that people can't seem to find the strength within to accept they may have been wrong and own their mistake.
“The earlier you admit to your mistakes, the more time you would have to learn and grow from them.”
“The earlier you admit to your mistakes, the more time you would have to learn and grow from them.”