Rank our top U21 players

bb8

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How would you rank our U21 players as long term prospects? You can include Mainoo and Garnacho, and also the top youth players (Obi Martin, Amass, Kone, Fletcher, etc)
 
I tried - but gave up. I can't even decide how I would rank our strikers Biancheri, Wheatley and Obi-Martin :)
 
How would you rank our U21 players as long term prospects? You can include Mainoo and Garnacho, and also the top youth players (Obi Martin, Amass, Kone, Fletcher, etc)
I would have to compare them to all the other players at other clubs in England and possibly Europe to do it properly and to be perfectly honest....who has got time on their hands to do that.
 
I would have to compare them to all the other players at other clubs in England and possibly Europe to do it properly and to be perfectly honest....who has got time on their hands to do that.
Why do you need to know players at any other clubs? I'm only asking to rank our top prospects haha.
 
Why do you need to know players at any other clubs? I'm only asking to rank our top prospects haha.
See this is where people get it wrong on here.
Some get so worked up about the prospects of our youngsters not knowing there are just as good if not better at other clubs and then are surprised when they don't make it....and this is before they have even gone out on loan to a league one or Championship side :rolleyes:
 
It's hard to rank the youth team because it fluctuates week to week. I genuinely hope there are 3 or 4 of this crop between the 18s and 21s who can become pros for the club but untimely injuries always seems to dent their growth.

Ones to look out for:
Chido comes highly celebrated and we have seen flashes.
Ethan Ennis is having a good season.
Amass is inconsistent but when hes good he looks special
Amir Ibragimov is very exciting.
Shea Lacey looked great pre injury. Who knows if we will see ot again.
Jack Fletcher looks like he has something about him.
Biacheri has really stepped up. Starting to look too good for u18.
Goodwill Kukonki is 6 foot 5 at only 16. His physicals will give him a huge chance.

I'm missing a bunch more, but the hope is a couple of these can make it.
 
See this is where people get it wrong on here.
Some get so worked up about the prospects of our youngsters not knowing there are just as good if not better at other clubs and then are surprised when they don't make it....and this is before they have even gone out on loan to a league one or Championship side :rolleyes:
Yeah, but I'm not asking how good they are compared to other clubs' prospects.
 
in a 3-4-3 this is my combined U21/U18 - in terms of potential and for fitting in that system

Vitek - Kukonki, Munro, Kamason - Scanlon, Devaney, Either of the Fletchers, Mantato - Ibragimov, Obi Martin, Wheatley
I pick Scanlon over Amass simply because of Scanlons ability to score.

And there still wouldn't be room for Harrison, Kingdon, Amass, Kamason, 1xFletcher, Thwaites, Moorhouse, Biancheri, Williams, Ennis, Fitzgerald, Baumann etc etc

We have a scary amount of talent
 
I agree with those above who say it’s really difficult due to the level of talent across the board. As I’ve said before I don’t think a 1 to 10 can be defined but I do think there’s tiers.

Two things with this though, form means theres constant movement between levels and those in the 3rd/4th tier can make it on work with hard work and attitude just as much as those with top technical talent in tier 1 for me. Be interesting to see people group them as such.
 
I agree with those above who say it’s really difficult due to the level of talent across the board. As I’ve said before I don’t think a 1 to 10 can be defined but I do think there’s tiers.

Two things with this though, form means theres constant movement between levels and those in the 3rd/4th tier can make it on work with hard work and attitude just as much as those with top technical talent in tier 1 for me. Be interesting to see people group them as such.
Who's in the top tier or two for you?
 
If we set the bar really high for a tier 1 player - maybe we only have 1 and that is Ibragimov. At 16 he looks better than players who 2-3 years older than him - including our own players.

Kukonki, Amass, Wheatley, Obi Martin, Lacey and Mantato are perhaps someplace between 1 and 2. But Lacey struggles with injuries and Amass and Wheatley have at least not taken a step in the right direction this season. Kukonki is perhaps the one closest to 1 of these players - simply because of his physique. If you are tall, muscular and quick - you have a lot of the key elements to be a top defender. If he develops his skills on the ball, he can go all the way.

My one concern with Obi Martin is if he is equally efficient when up against players who are big and strong - now he gets a lot free because of his size.

Mantato is another one who is close. In terms of skills -he is there. But he is not good enough in the final pass or in finishing. 6 goals and 0 assists in 9 games of course isn't bad - but when he gets into so many situations, when he gets to the line so often, and not once in 9 games can set up an attacker for a goal - that is not good enough. Scanlon, who in fairness is 2 years older, in comparison has 10 + 4 in 9 games. If Mantato can develop that part of his game - he is up there with the best youngsters we have.
 
in a 3-4-3 this is my combined U21/U18 - in terms of potential and for fitting in that system

Vitek - Kukonki, Munro, Kamason - Scanlon, Devaney, Either of the Fletchers, Mantato - Ibragimov, Obi Martin, Wheatley
I pick Scanlon over Amass simply because of Scanlons ability to score.

And there still wouldn't be room for Harrison, Kingdon, Amass, Kamason, 1xFletcher, Thwaites, Moorhouse, Biancheri, Williams, Ennis, Fitzgerald, Baumann etc etc

We have a scary amount of talent


Really useful write up. Thanks. A few questions, if you’d be so kind to answer -

1) You’ve mentioned Kamason twice. Who did you mean instead?

2) I’m less familiar with the players in bold. Anything you can tell me about them?

3) Notable omissions would be Kone (too early to judge?) and Armer. Any thoughts on them?

4) Who do you think will be Amorim’s first debutant?

I’m really hopeful about some of these players but fear the first team set up is too rotten to bring them into right now. I also understand that Amorim is giving some of our potentially unwanted players a chance to put themselves in the shop window rather than excluding them completely.
 
Really useful write up. Thanks. A few questions, if you’d be so kind to answer -

1) You’ve mentioned Kamason twice. Who did you mean instead?

2) I’m less familiar with the players in bold. Anything you can tell me about them?

3) Notable omissions would be Kone (too early to judge?) and Armer. Any thoughts on them?

4) Who do you think will be Amorim’s first debutant?

I’m really hopeful about some of these players but fear the first team set up is too rotten to bring them into right now. I also understand that Amorim is giving some of our potentially unwanted players a chance to put themselves in the shop window rather than excluding them completely.

1) Just a human error I imagine :)

2) Devaney is probably our most talented defensive midfielder - really hard-working, good tackler, good at keeping the ball - not very creative. Probably the player we have who the most reminds me of Keane (not anywhere near his class of course)

3) Kone looked much too raw - he will need a lot of coaching. His skills with the ball were superb the little I saw of him - but it's like he never was taught how to behave before he got the ball, so he made some strange choices. Armer is big and strong - but maybe a bit too much of an 80s or 90s defender to play for a top club in 2024.

4) Depends what we need - but realistically someone who is mature and physical enough to play at the highest level. I don't think it will be a central midfielder because of the position and because we have quite a few players who can fill those rolls. Eriksen, Mount, Bruno, Ugarte, Casemiro, Mainoo etc - and because it's a very important position. Normally I would say not a defender - but due to our injuries, it could be a defender. In which case i believe Kukonki

But most likely, it's an attacking midfielder or a striker - and then my guess is Scanlon, Obi Martin or Ibragimov
 
1) Just a human error I imagine :)

2) Devaney is probably our most talented defensive midfielder - really hard-working, good tackler, good at keeping the ball - not very creative. Probably the player we have who the most reminds me of Keane (not anywhere near his class of course)

3) Kone looked much too raw - he will need a lot of coaching. His skills with the ball were superb the little I saw of him - but it's like he never was taught how to behave before he got the ball, so he made some strange choices. Armer is big and strong - but maybe a bit too much of an 80s or 90s defender to play for a top club in 2024.

4) Depends what we need - but realistically someone who is mature and physical enough to play at the highest level. I don't think it will be a central midfielder because of the position and because we have quite a few players who can fill those rolls. Eriksen, Mount, Bruno, Ugarte, Casemiro, Mainoo etc - and because it's a very important position. Normally I would say not a defender - but due to our injuries, it could be a defender. In which case i believe Kukonki

But most likely, it's an attacking midfielder or a striker - and then my guess is Scanlon, Obi Martin or Ibragimov

Aha, cheers.

I've barely heard of Moorhouse and Baumann (also bolded above). What sort of players are they?

Interesting you say that central midfielder is the area least likely to filled by Ruben's first debutant. I'd have maybe considered it the most likely. Partly due to the likes of Jack Fletcher and Jayce Fitzgerald being on the bench recently for RVN/ETH. Also because it feels like Casemiro and Eriksen are the first players really being phased out by Amorim. He clearly feels they aren't mobile enough. I'd have thought this is the most obvious opening in the team besides LWB and Amass seems more raw than some of the young central midfielders we have. I think if we sell Casemiro and Eriksen, replacing them with two central midfielders is unlikely due to the cost involved and the other areas required. Therefore, signing one and promoting another makes the most sense. Having said that, though, Amorim only relied on 3 players in central midfield for Sporting - Morita, Hjulmund and Braganca.

Looking forward to seeing what Amorim does with the youth. I hope it's the one area of the club where we're currently one of the world leaders.
 
Aha, cheers.

I've barely heard of Moorhouse and Baumann (also bolded above). What sort of players are they?

Interesting you say that central midfielder is the area least likely to filled by Ruben's first debutant. I'd have maybe considered it the most likely. Partly due to the likes of Jack Fletcher and Jayce Fitzgerald being on the bench recently for RVN/ETH. Also because it feels like Casemiro and Eriksen are the first players really being phased out by Amorim. He clearly feels they aren't mobile enough. I'd have thought this is the most obvious opening in the team besides LWB and Amass seems more raw than some of the young central midfielders we have. I think if we sell Casemiro and Eriksen, replacing them with two central midfielders is unlikely due to the cost involved and the other areas required. Therefore, signing one and promoting another makes the most sense. Having said that, though, Amorim only relied on 3 players in central midfield for Sporting - Morita, Hjulmund and Braganca.

Looking forward to seeing what Amorim does with the youth. I hope it's the one area of the club where we're currently one of the world leaders.

Moorhouse I have hardly seen because he has struggled so much with injuries the last few years - but he was a fairly mobile midfielder. Box to Box.

Baumann is a quick all-round midfielder who is good in the initial build-up play but he feels a bit lightweight. Decent at pressing because he is quite agile, but needs to add more goals or assists to his name.
 
Who's in the top tier or two for you?
Apologies on the delayed response but I’d pretty much agree with the above right ups but I’d put Thwaites in the tier 1 group, and maybe Munro and Fitzgerald between group 2 and 3. However you have someone like Tyler Fletcher who has for me been as impressive as his brother Jack who is also highly rated.

It’s about where the opportunities will arise though and I do think central midfield will offer chances to those on form.
 
Its a little hard to say at times because you have a fair distance in the ages of some of the players. For example Jack Fletcher has got himself on the scoresheet 4 times in 7 matches which is a great improvement and one of our best step ups from the 18s to the 21s in some time. He's 17

On the other hand our most effective attacker is Ennis. He plays more, is usually one of if not our biggest attacking threat and has scored some goals to cap it off. But he's 20

Wheatley has 5 goals in 9 games which is pretty good for an 18 year old

Mather was really good last season when he played for the 21s, but I'd say Ennis has overtaken him this season due to being more direct and effective.

Gore is captain and the best passer of our CMs but he's 20 now and injuries have set him back last season and this

Amass did well in his step up last season but it was usually playing left wingback rather than leftback which he played in the 18s. At the time we werent playing that formation, but now we are so that experience will be helpful. However he hasnt been as good this season as last season despite playing our most minutes for the u21s. He looks like he's regressed, but he's getting more experience at the level and he's 17.

So we have a mix of players around 20 who are our mostly our best performers but will need to think about going out on loan and whether they will realistically get many chances in the first team and players who are 17 or 18 playing ahead of their age group and doing well for their age but probably split their time with the u18s still so they might play less in the 21s.

The CBs are a bit hard to judge at times because we're usually about midtable and half the time the other team are playing better. We average conceding 2 goals a game, but its usually 1 and sometimes more. They usually have plenty to do and some of it could be improved on. And of course defending is a team responsibility, they may stand off too much at the end etc, but chances are someone has made a mistake defensively before that as well. All that to say I dont see any of our CBs in the u21s as being particularly likely to become a first team rotational player or better, but perhaps given the chance in the first team playing with better players they can give a better account of themselves.
 
Strikers -
I think Obi is our brightest striker prospect. Wheatley is just too inconsistent with his touch and finishing. Biancheri is a good player but Obi just edge him on physicality and also overall play in my opinion (I can see Biancheri easily make it on some other European leagues, great poacher).

Wingers -
Lacey and Mantato are those with the best chance, although Lacey has been struggling with injuries alot and also his size might become a problem at senior level in England.
Williams and Ennis are dark horses - both are great striker on the ball and has their own weapons, but both are realistically a level or two below.
Mather I think is not quick enough for the highest level. Missin needs to immerse himself in the game more.

Midfielders -
We have plethora of them at all levels, even the U16s and below so I think we gotta be more strict about who realistically will have a chance.
Currently Jack Fletcher looks like the closest among the U18s/21s batch - with both Gore and Collyer are already 20 so not having much time left. Kone obviously have great raw materials - we just need to allow him more times to settle in. I think Fritzegald has a chance, albeit we might not be able to play him as a 6 at senior level so it's quite limited for him in terms of position.
Ibragimov is very interesting especially if we stick with Amorim going forward as he's perfect for the two AM roles behind the striker. He can easily play on the wing as well but I think AM is the best position to bring the best out of him.
Thwaites, Baumann and T.Fletcher are probably the tier below. But Thwaites hasn't have that much time with the U18s/21s yet so he can easily go up a gear or two soon. I would pick Tyler Fletcher has the dark horse on this tier because he has great stamina and physicality along with his talent so I think he can easily "do a Toby Collyer" moving up the rank, whilst being more well-rounded than Toby himself. Baumann needs to immerse himself in the game more to stand a chance.
We also have Devaney, McAllister,... but with the amount of talents we have I don't think we should mention everyone
Worth noting that the U16s group is just as strong in this position with Ibrovic-Fletcher, McEvoy, McCormack and the Nkoto brothers are also very much with this group full-time
Purely in terms of footballing abilities I would put Gore very high on this list, but as mentioned time is not on his side right now.

Defenders -
I think everyone knows that Amass and Kukonki are the two that are closest to the first team at the moment. I have confidence for Amass to break in as soon as he's filling out a bit more physically. You just need to be patient for it and I think that's what the club is doing as well. Kukonki is a good bet as long as we stick with 3 at the backs, he's ideal for that formation. Otherwise I think he can do a job as a LB in normal formations, as he is smooth and quick enough on the ball despite his size.
I think Fredricson has a good future in the game, too but similar case with Gore (and Kwambala before them), I think the club might feel that they lost too much time through injuries to reach the potential at the club. I think he shall find a new home soon to kickstart his career on a Mengi/Kwambala manner.
Kamason has been developing very well this year, has does have the physicality to adopt to the higher level better than someone like Amass at the moment. He's the dark horse that you can't just write off in my opinion.
Munro seems to have gone through his growth spurt and became a totally different player this season. He's now strong and quick on the Mengi/Tuanzebe manner, but has not been really tested at U21s level to see how he fares. He might surprise people as well as a candidate for RCB as he's been played as a RB quite a bit this season and did well going forward surprisingly.
Amer might gone a little bit off the radar compared to Kukonki but I would say he's been one of the most impressive players at U18s level this season, and it's not a surprise to see us conceding so few goals at this level with him being the ever-presented. Along with his size/physicality is his great composure (very noticeable on the ball, but also on defending).
Same with the midfielders, we can't forget that we do have talents at U16s level and below as well. The CB duo at U16s level Jacob Watson and Ngwashi looks great from the brief I have seen, and both of them are already capped by England at U16s level.

Goalkeepers -
I like the look of Byrne-Hughes. Otherwise I think our best prospects at this position are all currently on loan (Harrison and Vitek).

Overally I think our first year U18s group actually have the best chances, with Obi, Kukonki, Mantato, Ibragimov, Thwaites and Amer. Might have something to do with our timing of manager's transition.
 
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Strikers -
I think Obi is our brightest striker prospect. Wheatley is just too inconsistent with his touch and finishing. Biancheri is a good player but Obi just edge him on physicality and also overall play in my opinion (I can see Biancheri easily make it on some other European leagues, great poacher).

Wingers -
Lacey and Mantato are those with the best chance, although Lacey has been struggling with injuries alot and also his size might become a problem at senior level in England.
Williams and Ennis are dark horses - both are great striker on the ball and has their own weapons, but both are realistically a level or two below.
Mather I think is not quick enough for the highest level. Missin needs to immerse himself in the game more.

Midfielders -
We have plethora of them at all levels, even the U16s and below so I think we gotta be more strict about who realistically will have a chance.
Currently Jack Fletcher looks like the closest among the U18s/21s batch - with both Gore and Collyer are already 20 so not having much time left. Kone obviously have great raw materials - we just need to allow him more times to settle in. I think Fritzegald has a chance, albeit we might not be able to play him as a 6 at senior level so it's quite limited for him in terms of position.
Ibragimov is very interesting especially if we stick with Amorim going forward as he's perfect for the two AM roles behind the striker. He can easily play on the wing as well but I think AM is the best position to bring the best out of him.
Thwaites, Baumann and T.Fletcher are probably the tier below. But Thwaites hasn't have that much time with the U18s/21s yet so he can easily go up a gear or two soon. I would pick Tyler Fletcher has the dark horse on this tier because he has great stamina and physicality along with his talent so I think he can easily "do a Toby Collyer" moving up the rank, whilst being more well-rounded than Toby himself. Baumann needs to immerse himself in the game more to stand a chance.
We also have Devaney, McAllister,... but with the amount of talents we have I don't think we should mention everyone
Worth noting that the U16s group is just as strong in this position with Ibrovic-Fletcher, McEvoy, McCormack and the Nkoto brothers are also very much with this group full-time
Purely in terms of footballing abilities I would put Gore very high on this list, but as mentioned time is not on his side right now.

Defenders -
I think everyone knows that Amass and Kukonki are the two that are closest to the first team at the moment. I have confidence for Amass to break in as soon as he's filling out a bit more physically. You just need to be patient for it and I think that's what the club is doing as well. Kukonki is a good bet as long as we stick with 3 at the backs, he's ideal for that formation. Otherwise I think he can do a job as a LB in normal formations, as he is smooth and quick enough on the ball despite his size.
I think Fredricson has a good future in the game, too but similar case with Gore (and Kwambala before them), I think the club might feel that they lost too much time through injuries to reach the potential at the club. I think he shall find a new home soon to kickstart his career on a Mengi/Kwambala manner.
Kamason has been developing very well this year, has does have the physicality to adopt to the higher level better than someone like Amass at the moment. He's the dark horse that you can't just write off in my opinion.
Munro seems to have gone through his growth spurt and became a totally different player this season. He's now strong and quick on the Mengi/Tuanzebe manner, but has not been really tested at U21s level to see how he fares. He might surprise people as well as a candidate for RCB as he's been played as a RB quite a bit this season and did well going forward surprisingly.
Amer might gone a little bit off the radar compared to Kukonki but I would say he's been one of the most impressive players at U18s level this season, and it's not a surprise to see us conceding so few goals at this level with him being the ever-presented. Along with his size/physicality is his great composure (very noticeable on the ball, but also on defending).
Same with the midfielders, we can't forget that we do have talents at U16s level and below as well. The CB duo at U16s level Jacob Watson and Ngwashi looks great from the brief I have seen, and both of them are already capped by England at U16s level.

Goalkeepers -
I like the look of Byrne-Hughes. Otherwise I think our best prospects at this position are all currently on loan (Harrison and Vitek).

Overally I think our first year U18s group actually have the best chances, with Obi, Kukonki, Mantato, Ibragimov, Thwaites and Amer. Might have something to do with our timing of manager's transition.

Generally agree with what you are writing - we have so much talent it's hard to really pick 3-4. We have at U18 and reserve-level .. I don't know 12-14 players who have potential to reach the first-team squad, but if we can get 3-4 of them up, that would be great. But with the change in style from ETH to Amorim - some players have increased their chances, some the opposite. Typical wingers like Ennis will struggle more unless he adapts to a wing-back, while Lacey perhaps would have a bigger chance in a 3-4-3 than a 4-4-2 because of his lack of pace. Biancheri who is pressing a lot look more suited as a striker in an Amorim-system than in ETH's system where we didn't press very high.

I also think Jack Fletcher will struggle because I think Amorim want really hard-pressing, athletic midfielders - and that just isn't Fletcher. Whereas a Devaney look really suited for an Amorim-system
 
So is our u21 side one of the best in England/Europe?
Sitting quite low in u21 league and out of UEFA youth league so as a team no, but some good individuals with plenty of time to develop which is what matters most.

I think most clubs in England play very young sides at U21 just like us so reasonable comparisons can be made, but in Europe they have u19 leagues that match the uefa youth league which makes it much harder for English clubs to be competitive so that’s a difficult one to judge, and therefore best not to make comparisons with European clubs.