Rank Maradona, Messi, Pele and C.Ronaldo

[mshnsh]

An excellent Times Article on Pele



In my mind, what separates Pele from Messi is that Pele did not need to have an offensive scheme built around him for him to thrive. He could play within a team's offensive scheme because he had no real weakness in his game. Pele did not need a player like Rodrigo De Paul as a minder to be successful. Brazilian coaches could afford to pick a balanced squad with Pele performing both the offensive and defensive duties required of the position.

Messi has had teams built specifically around his strengths for most of his career. The reason why he was largely unsuccessful for Argentina until the present was that Argentine coaches could not replicate the Barcelona model at the international level, which resulted in a lot of square pegs placed in round holes to accommodate Messi. Whilst Pele could coexist with talented players like Rivelino, Tostao and Jairzinho, Messi could not thrive in such an environment, without similarly gifted players taking a minor role.

So not true. In his younger years, Messi used to defend as much as anyone yet provided the biggest threat in the attacking department. Messi never played with similarly gifted individuals while paying for Argentina, And btw, what are these strengths you talk about? dribbling? passing? playmaking?

The other thing, most of Brazil NT payers were Pele's teammates at Santos.

 

[genardk]

So in the end, it is an argument based in belief... Therefore I could think that Argentina wouldn't have won the WC without Dibu so he must be GOAT as well.

This is such a weird one-dimensional argument as your previous post that likens football to tennis))

The only problem is that belief that Argentina would not win without Messi/Maradona is shared by 99.999999% of the football fans. Brazil already won 62 without Pele..

Without Messi, Dibu and the rest is probably not getting out of the group let alone play the final. Just like without Maradona, Burruchaga/Valdano would not be in the final to make a difference..

BTW, the age of the other last WC golden ball winners was:
-32 (Luka Modric)
-31 (Diego Forlán)
-34 (Zinedine Zidane)
-33 (Oliver Kahn)

None of them brought the WC for their nation shining in the final..

 

[el3mel]

Yeah, he definitely was great for Portugal with 0 goal + 0 assist in the knock-out rounds in 5 WCS.
By far, the worst performing guy in the WC in the top 10 best players ever list,.. Doubt he may even be considered a top-100 WC player..



That's called a compromise.. None of the top attacking midfielders-forwards decided to become a tap-in merchant leaving all their skills (other than goal-scoring) on the table.. Messi, Zico, Maradona, Platini etc. did not have to do that to boost their goal scoring numbers. Ronaldo simply realized that he could not continue to do this artistic stuff and goal-scoring etc. at the same time.. He was never a GOAT level playmaker, passer, creator, dribbler anyway..


His record is not even better than Gerd Muller (way inferior than Muller's NT record) who is not even considered a top-10.

Without Ronaldo goals, Portugal would probably never have qualified from the group stage from most of these tournaments to start with.

Ronaldo's style of play isn't comparable to Messi or Maradona. As you said yourself he was never a playmaker. That doesn't make him worse than any of those. He has been a wide forward first and foremost, and was a very skilled one at that, and as he went older and lost yards of pace or finesse, he moved more central. Still, even after that he still scored a lot of incredible goals that shows high level of skill and abilities, and not just tap ins or 1 on 1.

Him not being as good of a playmaker as Messi doesn't make him worse than any of those legends. He excel in other areas.

I don't get the Gerd Muller comparison. Ronaldo's trophy cabinet is far bigger it is not even a contest. It's not just goals scored. It's goals scored and ton of trophies at different teams, and ton and ton of individual awards.

 

[Andrade]

Do you believe Argentina would win the WC without Messi/Maradona?
Well, Brazil just did that in 1962 WC.. They had well-oiled machines in 58 & 70, could easily win at least one of these without Pele as well..

The funny thing is I have been to Brazil many times, and even the Brazilians in their 40s-50s do not support Pele as passionately as some of the guys here. They say they know he is one of the top 2 players or the greatest ever, but other than that don't know much as they never had the chance to follow him closely so feel closer to players like Zico, R9, Ronaldinho etc. Yet, we had the experts here who knew everything about his game, skills etc from a few clips,, that's hillarious... Pele's status in Brazil is not comparable to that of Maradona and probably Messi in Argentina..



You are not kidding anyone with this age thing etc.. As if there were not many players with similar experience playing in betters teams than Argentina in the WC)) Why could not they do it if it is so easy?

You continue to miss points again and again.. Messi was the best player of the tournament in 2022 at the age of 35, nobody did that, got it? Then you are changing the goal-post saying there was someone older than him that scored in a WCs, big deal)) Was that guy the best player of the tournament? Nope, so, there goes your argument again..

I'm not missing point at all. You are just incapable of understanding that there was a player who may have been better than Messi. It's OK to countenance that possibility, the world will not end.

 

[DannyCAFC]

1. Messi
2. Pele
3. Maradona
4. Ronaldo

 

[Andrade]

Thanks. So apparently this dominance lasted exactly the amount of time Pelé was in the squad. Too much of a coincidence if you ask me.

However, if someone isn't happy about what the results of the most important tournament in the sport say, we can also look at how did he do in the clubs biggest competitions at the time, let's say, the 3 Libertadores and the 2 Intercontinental Cups that he played. Spoiler: his record is even better than the one at the WC.

You're bringing too many facts to an emotion fight, my good Sir....

 

[Zehner]

An excellent Times Article on Pele



In my mind, what separates Pele from Messi is that Pele did not need to have an offensive scheme built around him for him to thrive. He could play within a team's offensive scheme because he had no real weakness in his game. Pele did not need a player like Rodrigo De Paul as a minder to be successful. Brazilian coaches could afford to pick a balanced squad with Pele performing both the offensive and defensive duties required of the position.

Messi has had teams built specifically around his strengths for most of his career. The reason why he was largely unsuccessful for Argentina until the present was that Argentine coaches could not replicate the Barcelona model at the international level, which resulted in a lot of square pegs placed in round holes to accommodate Messi. Whilst Pele could coexist with talented players like Rivelino, Tostao and Jairzinho, Messi could not thrive in such an environment, without similarly gifted players taking a minor role.

I don't think this has anything to do with Pelé or Messi. Football was more improvised in Pelé's days. Just because it worked back then doesn't mean it would work today as well. I also disagree that Messi needs a team to be built around him. There' a nice video of Tifo about the positional variability of Messi.

Messi's key abilities, his vision, dribbling and control, his ability to create space and exploit it, and his selfless defensive work, meant that he could effectively play whereever Guardiola wanted. As such, sometimes Messi's use said more about Barcelona's other players and their strengths and weaknesses than it did about his own

That's the issue when comparing across eras. In the 60s, you still could give the best players free roaming roles without having to adjust too much. But in times of excessive video analysis and scouting, every weakness in your positioning will be discovered and exploited. It's far more demanding from a tactical point of view.

 

[Krakenzero]

So not true. In his younger years, Messi used to defend as much as anyone yet provided the biggest threat in the attacking department. Messi never played with similarly gifted individuals while paying for Argentina, And btw, what are these strengths you talk about? dribbling? passing? playmaking?

The other thing, most of Brazil NT payers were Pele's teammates at Santos.

Santos players in 1958 winning 22-player squad: 3 (Pelé included)
Santos players in 1970 winning 22-player squad: 5 (Pelé included)

 

[abundance]

I don't get the Gerd Muller comparison. Ronaldo's trophy cabinet is far bigger it is not even a contest. It's not just goals scored. It's goals scored and ton of trophies at different teams, and ton and ton of individual awards.

Umm, actually, it seems to me that their trophy cabinets are pretty comparable

 

[Andrade]

Umm, actually, it seems to me that their trophy cabinets are pretty comparable

Muller has a World Cup for starters

 

[abundance]

Muller has a World Cup for starters

Yep.

And it's 7 national leagues, 7 national cups, 5 Champions cup, and 1 Euro
vs
4 national leagues, 4 national cups, 3 Champions and 1 Cup's Winner cup, and 1 Euro and 1 WC

We can ballpark them in the same tier trophy wise, it seems to me.

 

[Goalfather]

So not true. In his younger years, Messi used to defend as much as anyone yet provided the biggest threat in the attacking department. Messi never played with similarly gifted individuals while paying for Argentina, And btw, what are these strengths you talk about? dribbling? passing? playmaking?

The other thing, most of Brazil NT payers were Pele's teammates at Santos.

Now you are just making sh#t up!

In 1958 Santos only had 3 players
In 1970 Santos had 5 players but only 3 starters

 

[tom8888sa]

Messi
Maradona
Ronaldo




Pele

 

[tom8888sa]

If Messi had chosen Spain, he would have 3 Euros and 2 world cups. It will basically be Barcalona Peak vs the world. What does that tell you about international football? Exactly. Judging a player should be based on champions league euro competitions and domestic leagues

 

[Andrade]

Yep.

And it's 7 national leagues, 7 national cups, 5 Champions cup, and 1 Euro
vs
4 national leagues, 4 national cups, 3 Champions and 1 Cup's Winner cup, and 1 Euro and 1 WC

We can ballpark them in the same tier trophy wise, it seems to me.

We can indeed. We can also point out that Muller was actually capable of scoring in the KO rounds of the World Cup. And that he scored in multiple European Cup finals, the World Cup final and the Euros final. CR has only managed one of those.

 

[Swoobs]

If Messi had chosen Spain, he would have 3 Euros and 2 world cups. It will basically be Barcalona Peak vs the world. What does that tell you about international football? Exactly. Judging a player should be based on champions league euro competitions and domestic leagues

Well if Messi had played for Valencia, Roma or Spurs, he would not have that many UCL and league titles.

That is one of the main reason why he has won so many club trophies, playing a super team.

Don’t get me wrong, he is the BOAT and GOAT, but he will also achieve lesser trophies if he played for mid tier teams in club football.

 

[Swoobs]

We can indeed. We can also point out that Muller was actually capable of scoring in the KO rounds of the World Cup. And that he scored in multiple European Cup finals, the World Cup final and the Euros final. CR has only managed one of those.

And Muller isnt even the number 1 legend of his sides, Beckenbauer is (and also scored 3 goals in WC knockout games, against Uruguay England and SU, all big games).

 

[AndySmith1990]

Well if Messi had played for Valencia, Roma or Spurs, he would not have that many UCL and league titles.

That is one of the main reason why he has won so many club trophies, playing a super team.

Don’t get me wrong, he is the BOAT and GOAT, but he will also achieve lesser trophies if he played for mid tier teams in club football.

That goes for anyone. We're discussing a team sport, not golf or tennis. Comparing players ability is perfectly fine, but when we start getting into trophies (won by a team, not individuals) it all starts getting a bit dodgy and is heavily biased, quite frankly

It's why I never put much stock in Messi having to win the world cup to be considered alongside Maradona and Pele. What that essentially means is its impossible for someone like Haaland to be considered the best player ever, no matter what else he achieves

 

[abundance]

We can indeed. We can also point out that Muller was actually capable of scoring in the KO rounds of the World Cup. And that he scored in multiple European Cup finals, the World Cup final and the Euros final. CR has only managed one of those.

<stop, stop! he's already dead!.gif>
;^)

 

[Andrade]

<stop, stop! he's already dead!.gif>
;^)

 

[Swoobs]

That goes for anyone. We're discussing a team sport, not golf or tennis. Comparing players ability is perfectly fine, but when we start getting into trophies (won by a team, not individuals) it all starts getting a bit dodgy and is heavily biased, quite frankly

It's why I never put much stock in Messi having to win the world cup to be considered alongside Maradona and Pele. What that essentially means is its impossible for someone like Haaland to be considered the best player ever, no matter what else he achieves

Agreed if you are talking about the BOAT(best) but if we talk about the GOAT (greatest), then trophies will be be a factor as well, although being higher in the BOAT list will be a greater factor imho

 

[antohan]

What I find bizarre is that I see no reference to one of the most significant differentiators: the ability to raise the level of those around you.

It's a team sport, anyone who makes 4-5, let alone the other 10 players play better makes a massive difference.

That to me was Maradona's greatest attribute. Argentina/Napoli being shit is a myth, but they weren't superteams either. That makes it easier to notice how most of those that played with Diego also played their very best football alongside him. That's what ultimately made those non-superteams succeed, not just an accumulation of individual heroic performances.

It probably skews the discussion in favour of the #10s (or defensive organisers, inspirational captains, etc) but being inconvenient for the Müllers or Ronaldos of this world doesn't make it less valid or significant a factor.

 

[el3mel]

Muller has a World Cup for starters

You don't win World Cup on your own. One played for Germany, the other played for Portugal. No matter how much we look into it, Portugal will never be in the same tier as Germany.

Yep.

And it's 7 national leagues, 7 national cups, 5 Champions cup, and 1 Euro
vs
4 national leagues, 4 national cups, 3 Champions and 1 Cup's Winner cup, and 1 Euro and 1 WC

We can ballpark them in the same tier trophy wise, it seems to me.

Muller won 16 trophies, Ronaldo won 31.

Ronaldo won trophies in 3 different countries, in comparison to Muller winning it in one country.

Ronaldo won 5 Ballon D'Or, Muller won one.

 

[Andrade]

You don't win World Cup on your own. One played for Germany, the other played for Portugal. No matter how much we look into it, Portugal will never be in the same tier as Germany.















Muller won 16 trophies, Ronaldo won 31.







Ronaldo won trophies in 3 different countries, in comparison to Muller winning it in one country.







Ronaldo won 5 Ballon D'Or, Muller won one.

So Muller played for Germany, that explains why he was able to score goals in the KO rounds of the WC and Ronaldo wasn't?



Re the trophies, the other poster was listing major trophies, ie proper cups and leagues. How do you get 31 v 16? Can't be correct.

 

[Swoobs]

So Muller played for Germany, that explains why he was able to score goals in the KO rounds of the WC and Ronaldo wasn't?



Re the trophies, the other poster was listing major trophies, ie proper cups and leagues. How do you get 31 v 16? Can't be correct.

Don’t you know, for some its a team game when CR7 doesn’t win it, but a CR7 carry job when he wins.

For your 2nd question, he included all trophies, minor and major. Still easily not top 5 ever based on trophy counts.

https://www.sportsadda.com/football/features/most-trophies-won-by-a-player-in-football

And for whats it worth, Di Stefano won only 2 Ballon Dors (because it started only in 1956), also won a 5 peat for Real. Yet he was downplayed because “only 2 ballon dors”

 

[Andrade]

Don’t you know, for some its a team game when CR7 doesn’t win it, but a CR7 carry job when he wins.



For your 2nd question, he included all trophies, minor and major. Still easily not top 5 ever based on trophy counts.



https://www.sportsadda.com/football/features/most-trophies-won-by-a-player-in-football



And for whats it worth, Di Stefano won only 2 Ballon Dors (because it started only in 1956), also won a 5 peat for Real. Yet he was downplayed because “only 2 ballon dors”

People really need to understand that the Ballon D'Or is not a consistent thing that proves that player X is better than player Y who played 50 years ago because player X has more. You have to look at it contextually.

 

[Attila]

Maradona
Ronaldo
Pele
Messi

 

[Swoobs]

People really need to understand that the Ballon D'Or is not a consistent thing that proves that player X is better than player Y who played 50 years ago because player X has more. You have to look at it contextually.

I think with regards to Di Stefano, he was actually really unlucky with the Ballon Dor. If that award existed since 1950 for example, he would have won a fair few more

 

[KeanoMagicHat]

You don't win World Cup on your own. One played for Germany, the other played for Portugal. No matter how much we look into it, Portugal will never be in the same tier as Germany.



Muller won 16 trophies, Ronaldo won 31.

Ronaldo won trophies in 3 different countries, in comparison to Muller winning it in one country.

Ronaldo won 5 Ballon D'Or, Muller won one.

Nobody cares about winning leagues in different countries except Ronaldo fans when you go to 3 super clubs, for example winning 2 leagues in 9 seasons in La Liga also is not an achievement to be boasting about, that’s below par for the course for Real Madrid historically.

Gabriel Heinze has won the league in 4 leagues, Maldini only won the league in one country. Alexis Sanchez won the league in 4 countries, Best won the league in one country. Nobody cares - especially when comparing to players of the past where leaving your country to play was uncommon

 

[abundance]

You don't win World Cup on your own.

Alrite I see you went straight from "let's flex trophy cabinets" to "football is a team sport".

I approve, for what is worth.

I mean, football is about winning, and by winning many important trophies you sculpt your name in football history, but going too much accountant-ish on that doesn't really add much to discussions on who was the better guy.

Also because the difference between triumph and dust is so often such a thin veil.

(I mean, right now half the world is farting rainbows on Messi finally proving he's the goatest of all goats and nobody talks about little Kylian.
But, all it would've taken for the world to dismiss Messi forever as an also ran in the goat race, while hailing Mbappe as already better than Pelé, is a couple of different teammates of them shitting or not shitting their pants while kicking a single ball 11 metres in front of the goal after 120 minutes of battle.
Really, that's all that separates two completely different historical "truths")


Anyway, if you so insist to go full-accountant...

Muller won 16 trophies, Ronaldo won 31.

12 of those Ronaldo's 31 are supercups and club's world cups.
Among Muller's 16 there are a second division league and an intercontinental cup.
So it's 19 major trophies for Ronaldo (20 if you count UEFA Nation's League), 14 for Muller.

And again, for real, it's all never been about these minutiae.

 

[el3mel]

So Muller played for Germany, that explains why he was able to score goals in the KO rounds of the WC and Ronaldo wasn't?



Re the trophies, the other poster was listing major trophies, ie proper cups and leagues. How do you get 31 v 16? Can't be correct.

Scoring in KO stages is just an invented stat to get one against Ronaldo it's ridiculous. I didn't realize goals in tournaments are different if they are scored in group stage vs scored in a KO stage.

Even with major trophies only counted, Ronaldo had 20 vs Muller's 14.

 

[el3mel]

Don’t you know, for some its a team game when CR7 doesn’t win it, but a CR7 carry job when he wins.

For your 2nd question, he included all trophies, minor and major. Still easily not top 5 ever based on trophy counts.

https://www.sportsadda.com/football/features/most-trophies-won-by-a-player-in-football

And for whats it worth, Di Stefano won only 2 Ballon Dors (because it started only in 1956), also won a 5 peat for Real. Yet he was downplayed because “only 2 ballon dors”

Literally no one in this conversation said Ronaldo carried teams on his own to glory but nice inventing things out of your mind to support your argument.

 

[el3mel]

People really need to understand that the Ballon D'Or is not a consistent thing that proves that player X is better than player Y who played 50 years ago because player X has more. You have to look at it contextually.

That's what we did though. We didn't depend on Ballon D'Or alone, we looked at it plus trophies won and goals scored and the net result is that Ronaldo simply achieved far more than many legends of the sport and deserves his spot in such conversations.

 

[el3mel]

Nobody cares about winning leagues in different countries except Ronaldo fans when you go to 3 super clubs, for example winning 2 leagues in 9 seasons in La Liga also is not an achievement to be boasting about, that’s below par for the course for Real Madrid historically.

Gabriel Heinze has won the league in 4 leagues, Maldini only won the league in one country. Alexis Sanchez won the league in 4 countries, Best won the league in one country. Nobody cares - especially when comparing to players of the past where leaving your country to play was uncommon

Madrid have only won 8 league titles in the last 23 years or something.

While it's not to be all as a criteria for a great player, it's one of many things that when added together define a legend. He won trophies in 3 different countries + many other things, goals, individual awards, trophies.. Etc. Not just that he won some leagues in different countries and that's it.

Finally I'm not a Ronaldo fan actually but it's ridiculous how Redcafe is persistent on turning on players or managers once they have one or two bad years at the end of their career. Not the first time to happen and won't be the last. This board is the epitome example of "you are good as your last game" kind of mentality.

 

[el3mel]

Alrite I see you went straight from "let's flex trophy cabinets" to "football is a team sport".

I approve, for what is worth.

I mean, football is about winning, and by winning many important trophies you sculpt your name in football history, but going too much accountant-ish on that doesn't really add much to discussions on who was the better guy.

Also because the difference between triumph and dust is so often such a thin veil.

(I mean, right now half the world is farting rainbows on Messi finally proving he's the goatest of all goats and nobody talks about little Kylian.
But, all it would've taken for the world to dismiss Messi forever as an also ran in the goat race, while hailing Mbappe as already better than Pelé, is a couple of different teammates of them shitting or not shitting their pants while kicking a single ball 11 metres in front of the goal after 120 minutes of battle.
Really, that's all that separates two completely different historical "truths")


Anyway, if you so insist to go full-accountant...

12 of those Ronaldo's 31 are supercups and club's world cups.
Among Muller's 16 there are a second division league and an intercontinental cup.
So it's 19 major trophies for Ronaldo (20 if you count UEFA Nation's League), 14 for Muller.

And again, for real, it's all never been about these minutiae.

The reality is Portugal has never been a contender to win World Cup as much as the big guns like Germany, Italy or Brazil. They are tier 2 team at most on international level, maybe even tier 3 for a lot of time.

Portugal have won only two trophies in their entire history and guess what, both were during Ronaldo's era. To count not winning World Cup against Ronaldo's legacy then is clutching at strews. Portugal have achieved their best results during his time.

Yeah, still with major trophies only counted, Ronaldo had a lot more. This comparison has no base at all. We aren't saying Ronaldo is one of the top 5 in history just because he scored a lot of goals and that's it. He's more than that.

 

[genardk]

Thanks. So apparently this dominance lasted exactly the amount of time Pelé was in the squad. Too much of a coincidence if you ask me.

Such a coincidence that this dominance continued without him in 1962 WC as well..
Seems like Pele was not an absolute requirement for dominance as Brazil was strong enough to win the WC without him..

 

[Andrade]

Scoring in KO stages is just an invented stat to get one against Ronaldo it's ridiculous. I didn't realize goals in tournaments are different if they are scored in group stage vs scored in a KO stage.

Even with major trophies only counted, Ronaldo had 20 vs Muller's 14.

An invented stat?!?! Hilarious. KO goals have more value because if you lose you get knocked out. That's usually not the case with group stage games

 

[Andrade]

That's what we did though. We didn't depend on Ballon D'Or alone, we looked at it plus trophies won and goals scored and the net result is that Ronaldo simply achieved far more than many legends of the sport and deserves his spot in such conversations.

Not more than Muller though IMO.

 

[Andrade]

The reality is Portugal has never been a contender to win World Cup as much as the big guns like Germany, Italy or Brazil. They are tier 2 team at most on international level, maybe even tier 3 for a lot of time.



Portugal have won only two trophies in their entire history and guess what, both were during Ronaldo's era. To count not winning World Cup against Ronaldo's legacy then is clutching at strews. Portugal have achieved their best results during his time.



Yeah, still with major trophies only counted, Ronaldo had a lot more. This comparison has no base at all. We aren't saying Ronaldo is one of the top 5 in history just because he scored a lot of goals and that's it. He's more than that.

I think it's fair to say it is tougher for Portugal to win the World Cup but Ronaldo has not even played well at a World Cup. I've said this before but look at Modric winning the golden ball and leading Croatia to 2nd and 3rd place finishes at the World Cup. And Croatia is half the size of Portugal. You can make excuses for Ronaldo all you like but he has underperformed on the biggest stage at it will always be held against him. I'm sorry but those are the facts.

 

[antohan]

People really need to [want to - ed] understand that the Ballon D'Or is not a consistent thing that proves that player X is better than player Y who played 50 years ago because player X has more. You have to look at it contextually.

They don't