Ralf Rangnick's consultancy role has been scrapped

[Iker Quesadillas]

I think you only have to look at our choice of manager since SAF to see how evidently true that is. Moyes was very different from SAF, LvG was a world away from Moyes, Mourinho was the antithesis tactically of LvG, Solskjaer the polar opposite of Mourinho in terms of personality and methods. Now you have EtH who is completely different again.

I don't think City and especially Liverpool hired those managers because the clubs had an "idea" of how they wanted to play. They hired those managers because they were some of the top managers in world football. They continued to back those managers because they hit their basic targets pretty quickly; they earned the backing.

City and Liverpool are not great examples because those clubs have been succeeding at almost every point. The actual test of this principle is how it works when things are going poorly. When do you decide that your "idea of how to play" needs to be binned? None of these managers brought any sustained success to United; there was not much evidence to support their "ideas." It is perfectly reasonable to change course after years of failure.

I think everyone understands that an improvised, scatterbrained approach to playing like Klopp's Liverpool is probably better than a professional, data-driven attempt to play like Pulis' Stoke. The actual thing you are trying to do matters just as much, if not more, than the process to achieve it. That is why there was so much criticism of Ole, because a lot of money was spent for United to pursue an 'idea' that wasn't all that great.

 

[Robbie Boy]

We should all be glad that we are shot of both him and Ole.

 

[Lyng]

We should all be glad that we are shot of both him and Ole.

Thats pretty much all there is to it.

 

[Zen86]

I don't think City and especially Liverpool hired those managers because the clubs had an "idea" of how they wanted to play. They hired those managers because they were some of the top managers in world football. They continued to back those managers because they hit their basic targets pretty quickly; they earned the backing.

City and Liverpool are not great examples because those clubs have been succeeding at almost every point. The actual test of this principle is how it works when things are going poorly. When do you decide that your "idea of how to play" needs to be binned? None of these managers brought any sustained success to United; there was not much evidence to support their "ideas." It is perfectly reasonable to change course after years of failure.

I think everyone understands that an improvised, scatterbrained approach to playing like Klopp's Liverpool is probably better than a professional, data-driven attempt to play like Pulis' Stoke. The actual thing you are trying to do matters just as much, if not more, than the process to achieve it. That is why there was so much criticism of Ole, because a lot of money was spent for United to pursue an 'idea' that wasn't all that great.

To be fair, City certainly had a blueprint in place which was basically to copy and paste what Barcelona had done. Pep was always the endgame for them and they did quite a bit of prep to ready themselves for his arrival, although they've spent over a billion since appointing him anyway.

Our managerial appointments have been pretty scattergun, and the severely contrasting styles between managers have been detrimental to the club. Having some overarching idea of how we wanted the team to play would have been useful. I don't think we would have found ourselves in the gutter last season if that was the case.

Liverpool aren't much better, though. They hired Klopp and Klopp has made it work. To suggest FSG have architected their rise through some core footballing philosophy is a bit daft. They were a shit show before Klopp and will likely return to that after he leaves.

 

[McTerminator]

I don't think City and especially Liverpool hired those managers because the clubs had an "idea" of how they wanted to play. They hired those managers because they were some of the top managers in world football. They continued to back those managers because they hit their basic targets pretty quickly; they earned the backing.

City and Liverpool are not great examples because those clubs have been succeeding at almost every point. The actual test of this principle is how it works when things are going poorly. When do you decide that your "idea of how to play" needs to be binned? None of these managers brought any sustained success to United; there was not much evidence to support their "ideas." It is perfectly reasonable to change course after years of failure.

I think everyone understands that an improvised, scatterbrained approach to playing like Klopp's Liverpool is probably better than a professional, data-driven attempt to play like Pulis' Stoke. The actual thing you are trying to do matters just as much, if not more, than the process to achieve it. That is why there was so much criticism of Ole, because a lot of money was spent for United to pursue an 'idea' that wasn't all that great.

Funnily enough Arsenal are a good example of this.

 

[Dion]

No you're alright mate, I don't care enough to continue this nonsense. Good night.

If you don't care enough please stop replying, if you want to continue this then answer in good faith.

 

[Dion]

I don't think City and especially Liverpool hired those managers because the clubs had an "idea" of how they wanted to play. They hired those managers because they were some of the top managers in world football. They continued to back those managers because they hit their basic targets pretty quickly; they earned the backing.

City and Liverpool are not great examples because those clubs have been succeeding at almost every point. The actual test of this principle is how it works when things are going poorly. When do you decide that your "idea of how to play" needs to be binned? None of these managers brought any sustained success to United; there was not much evidence to support their "ideas." It is perfectly reasonable to change course after years of failure.

I think everyone understands that an improvised, scatterbrained approach to playing like Klopp's Liverpool is probably better than a professional, data-driven attempt to play like Pulis' Stoke. The actual thing you are trying to do matters just as much, if not more, than the process to achieve it. That is why there was so much criticism of Ole, because a lot of money was spent for United to pursue an 'idea' that wasn't all that great.

For City especially this absolutely isn't true, they had prepared for Guardiola for quite some time, it was well known it was their long term aim.

Liverpool is less the manager and more the upper office stuff, they've had large turnover there and remained consistent in their scouting and acquisition strategy (which isn't down to Klopp, he only gets the final say on transfers).

 

[Tigersam]

To be fair, City certainly had a blueprint in place which was basically to copy and paste what Barcelona had done. Pep was always the endgame for them and they did quite a bit of prep to ready themselves for his arrival, although they've spent over a billion since appointing him anyway.

Our managerial appointments have been pretty scattergun, and the severely contrasting styles between managers have been detrimental to the club. Having some overarching idea of how we wanted the team to play would have been useful. I don't think we would have found ourselves in the gutter last season if that was the case.

Liverpool aren't much better, though. They hired Klopp and Klopp has made it work. To suggest FSG have architected their rise through some core footballing philosophy is a bit daft. They were a shit show before Klopp and will likely return to that after he leaves.

I think before he leaves - despite getting through against Wolves last night (which should never have had to be played by the way, Wolves were VARd into the replay in the 1st leg) they have been struggling all season. Mane a big miss (they would have been better selling Salah) and the midfield are all 30+ and probably feel more like 40+, because of their playing style these last few years.

 

[Tigersam]

We should all be glad that we are shot of both him and Ole.

I agree about OGS, but to be fair to RR he was perhaps a useful - if at the time unpleasant - interim manager. Let me finish: he basically laid the groundwork for what ETH is doing now and has done over the last couple of months, in particular. Rangnick said that Ronaldo should go and that has turned out to be the right call. He was also very unlucky in his time at Old Trafford, losing one star sriker and possibly two (when Cavani downed tools) which I still maintain was a reaction to the Ronaldo re-hire.

Where Rangnick got it wrong was he said United needed 6 years to turn things around, whereas ETH seems to have done it in 6 months. I'm getting worried that in the second half of the season Man United will come through to be our main challenger - City, a bit like Liverpool, seem to be suffering from the battles of the last 4-5 years - Newcastle don't yet have strength in depth, Chelsea are having a bad run especially injuries and you can't just buy your way out of trouble and Spurs are just rubbish.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

For City especially this absolutely isn't true, they had prepared for Guardiola for quite some time, it was well known it was their long term aim.

Exactly, the long term aim was Guardiola. Not 'a manager who likes juego de posición', but Guardiola himself, because of his excellent track record. The question is, would their second choice have been 'another proven manager with a great track record' or 'a guy with the same ideas as Guardiola but no track record'? I'm guessing the former.

 

[fallengt]

We actually need 8 players to catch up to last season's City and Liverpool. Can you prove me wrong?

What if I can? You want me to make 'Zen86 grudge' thread ?
What's even the point of this topic. Not even Moyes deserves this much hate.

So he said things, we disagreed. Cool, move on now.

 

[Zen86]

What if I can? You want me to make 'Zen86 grudge' thread ?
What's even the point of this topic. Not even Moyes deserves this much hate.

So he said things, we disagreed. Cool, move on now.

Is this the Ralf grudge thread? Apologies, I thought it was the appreciation thread where we discuss how he was right about everything and laid the groundwork for ETH.

 

[mu4c_20le]

Rangnick was not a manager. He was hired was an auditor to tell us what went wrong. In that aspect, he did his job.

 

[ChaddyP]

Actually thought this was a madness and we were going back to our old ways of not having football people at the top of the structure.

I didn't realise that Ten Hag was basically going to do everything, not just coaching and Ralf would have got in his way. I have seen the light.

 

[Nobby style]

I agree about OGS, but to be fair to RR he was perhaps a useful - if at the time unpleasant - interim manager. Let me finish: he basically laid the groundwork for what ETH is doing now and has done over the last couple of months, in particular. Rangnick said that Ronaldo should go and that has turned out to be the right call. He was also very unlucky in his time at Old Trafford, losing one star sriker and possibly two (when Cavani downed tools) which I still maintain was a reaction to the Ronaldo re-hire.

Where Rangnick got it wrong was he said United needed 6 years to turn things around, whereas ETH seems to have done it in 6 months. I'm getting worried that in the second half of the season Man United will come through to be our main challenger - City, a bit like Liverpool, seem to be suffering from the battles of the last 4-5 years - Newcastle don't yet have strength in depth, Chelsea are having a bad run especially injuries and you can't just buy your way out of trouble and Spurs are just rubbish.

Absolute bollocks Cavani downing tools. What an absurd thing to say. Provide any sort of link or explanation to this please. Yes, Rangnick spouting Ronaldo needs to go, meanwhile Ronaldo saved his sorry ass with his goal tally. If not for "got-to-go" Ronny, Ragnick would've possibly brought us down. And where he got it wrong about the six years rebuild, he got it massively, massively wrong, like stupidly wrong, as Ten Hag has obviously shown, as well as other real managers such as Conte and Tuchel have proved in the past. Ragnick said nothing that wasn't obvious to 90% of the punters who follow United. I still can't fathom any 'use' he was to United outside of continuing the long line of embarrassing follies served up by Wayward and the Glaziers. No worthy football, no new manager bounce, nothing except dorky babble.

 

[stefan92]

And where he got it wrong about the six years rebuild, he got it massively, massively wrong, like stupidly wrong, as Ten Hag has obviously shown, as well as other real managers such as Conte and Tuchel have proved in the past.

Except that's not what he said. He said Liverpool was six years ahead in their development, essentially comparing United at that point in time to Liverpool before Klopp arrived. He even said that United might not take that long if they make the right transfer decisions now.

And no, ten Hag hasn't shown that to be massively wrong. Rangnick said that about a Liverpool that was strong runners up in the league and reached evey possible cup final. United is on a good way, but it's not on that level yet.

 

[Dan_F]

Rangnick was not a manager. He was hired was an auditor to tell us what went wrong. In that aspect, he did his job.

Pretty sure it was temporary manager, and he failed at it.

He said nothing that any of us weren’t already saying. We don’t do the basics, we don’t run, we’ve signed a load of shit players because the recruitment side of the club is shit.

Don’t forget the player recommendations, like signing Laimer - we end up with Casemiro. Or those hidden gems like Nkunku or Gvardiol that their clubs definitely would have let go for cheap in January. Alverez would have been good, I’ll give him that.

 

[Nobby style]

Except that's not what he said. He said Liverpool was six years ahead in their development, essentially comparing United at that point in time to Liverpool before Klopp arrived. He even said that United might not take that long if they make the right transfer decisions now.

And no, ten Hag hasn't shown that to be massively wrong. Rangnick said that about a Liverpool that was strong runners up in the league and reached evey possible cup final. United is on a good way, but it's not on that level yet.

Massively wrong. In less than half a season, we are above Liverpool and have beaten them, arguably already better than Citeh, have beaten L'Arse, and would have to be considered at the moment among the top five in the world. Mebbe top 3. Can you imagine if we hadn't had those two-game hiccups against Brighton and Brentford?? ETH has done this in half a season with a month long interruption. Rangnick is full of shite, and again, has said nothing out of the obvious and has been massively wrong about what it would take to return United to greatness. As I said, will be remembered as a babbling blip in a long line of post Fergie folly.

 

[SalfordRed18]

Rangnick was not a manager. He was hired was an auditor to tell us what went wrong. In that aspect, he did his job.

Except he was literally hired as an interim manager.

 

[Tigersam]

Absolute bollocks Cavani downing tools. What an absurd thing to say. Provide any sort of link or explanation to this please. Yes, Rangnick spouting Ronaldo needs to go, meanwhile Ronaldo saved his sorry ass with his goal tally. If not for "got-to-go" Ronny, Rangnick would've possibly brought us down. And where he got it wrong about the six years rebuild, he got it massively, massively wrong, like stupidly wrong, as Ten Hag has obviously shown, as well as other real managers such as Conte and Tuchel have proved in the past. Rangnick said nothing that wasn't obvious to 90% of the punters who follow United. I still can't fathom any 'use' he was to United outside of continuing the long line of embarrassing follies served up by Wayward and the Glaziers. No worthy football, no new manager bounce, nothing except dorky babble.

I can't provide a link, but I will have a go at an explanation (I'm slightly biased though as I like Cavani and always have). In May 2021 Cavani was disuaded from joining Boca Juniors when OGS pursuaded him to sign for one more year and also have the chance to play in front of Old Trafford fans, post-Covid. Three months later following who knows how much coaxing from your ex-greatest manager (certainly an important phone-call) Ronaldo re-signs and despite what you say about his individual goal tally, it turned into a disaster. He scored a decent number, but the team as a whole under-performed as often players were looking for CR7 to the exclusion of other team-mates. Oh and for some strange reason, Ronaldo gets Cavani's No. 7 shirt too. Now the Uruguayan said he was OK with that shirt issue, but was he, or was it just spin sent out by Man United's PR people? Either way he was never the same player again for you, so Ronaldo was not just a disaster in and of himself, it meant you paid Cavani for another year to sit in the medical room and/or the bench.

I rest my case.

Pretty sure it was temporary manager, and he failed at it.

He said nothing that any of us weren’t already saying. We don’t do the basics, we don’t run, we’ve signed a load of shit players because the recruitment side of the club is shit.

Don’t forget the player recommendations, like signing Laimer - we end up with Casemiro. Or those hidden gems like Nkunku or Gvardiol that their clubs definitely would have let go for cheap in January. Alverez would have been good, I’ll give him that.

That is a point often made, however its one thing saying whats wrong with the club on Red Caf or down the Pub, it's slightly different if you are actually in the top job, even if its on an interim basis.

 

[Nobby style]

I can't provide a link, but I will have a go at an explanation (I'm slightly biased though as I like Cavani and always have). In May 2021 Cavani was disuaded from joining Boca Juniors when OGS pursuaded him to sign for one more year and also have the chance to play in front of Old Trafford fans, post-Covid. Three months later following who knows how much coaxing from your ex-greatest manager (certainly an important phone-call) Ronaldo re-signs and despite what you say about his individual goal tally, it turned into a disaster. He scored a decent number, but the team as a whole under-performed as often players were looking for CR7 to the exclusion of other team-mates. Oh and for some strange reason, Ronaldo gets Cavani's No. 7 shirt too. Now the Uruguayan said he was OK with that shirt issue, but was he, or was it just spin sent out by Man United's PR people? Either way he was never the same player again for you, so Ronaldo was not just a disaster in and of himself, it meant you paid Cavani for another year to sit in the medical room and/or the bench.

I rest my case.



That is a point often made, however its one thing saying whats wrong with the club on Red Caf or down the Pub, it's slightly different if you are actually in the top job, even if its on an interim basis.

You provide pure "football genius" conjecture, without anything of real substantial proof . . . "was it just spin?" . . . yet you're ready to totally to taint him as a corrupt individual, as a corrupt professional, as a footballer with a fantastic career, from behind your keyboard, as "downing tools." Probably one of the worst things you can say about any sort of professional, especially a very well paid one with a huge, well earned reputation. Seriously, get a grip.

 

[Tigersam]

You provide pure "football genius" conjecture, without anything of real substantial proof . . . "was it just spin?" . . . yet you're ready to totally to taint him as a professional and footballer with a fantastic career from behind your keyboard, as "downing tools." Probably one of the worst things you can say about any sort of professional, especially a very well paid one with a huge, well earned reputation. Seriously, get a grip.

Do you think Cavani (whom I stated previoulsy is a player I very much admire) gave value for money in his final year at United? I don't think so and I remember him getting slated on here week in week out. Furthermore, I don't think the phrase 'downing tools' is excessive, but I don't blame him, I blame Ronaldo (and whomever was resposible for the return of Ronaldo) that is my point and in relation to this actual thread it is some vidication of Ralf Rangnick who was quick to spot how poisenous to the club, Ronaldo had become.

 

[Dan_F]

That is a point often made, however its one thing saying whats wrong with the club on Red Caf or down the Pub, it's slightly different if you are actually in the top job, even if its on an interim basis.

Saying it out loud made no difference. ETH is showing that it wasn’t what we required. In fact, with short term management, it’s literally the last thing you want to do. I’m sure the board wanted his opinion on the squad but there’s no way they wanted it played out in public. It was all self preservation because he couldn’t get the players to do what he wanted. Obviously you can blame the board for hiring a manager with tactical principles that were completely different to what we had at the time, but the bottom line is Ralf failed completely and made no difference to the performances this season.

 

[Dion]

Exactly, the long term aim was Guardiola. Not 'a manager who likes juego de posición', but Guardiola himself, because of his excellent track record. The question is, would their second choice have been 'another proven manager with a great track record' or 'a guy with the same ideas as Guardiola but no track record'? I'm guessing the former.

Would they? They went for Pellegrini because if his stylistic similarities to Guardiola even though there was better managers on paper available. It's very difficult to see them making a change as disjoined as LvG to Mourinho for example.

 

[Nobby style]

Do you think Cavani (whom I stated previoulsy is a player I very much admire) gave value for money in his final year at United? I don't think so and I remember him getting slated on here week in week out. Furthermore, I don't think the phrase 'downing tools' is excessive, but I don't blame him, I blame Ronaldo (and whomever was resposible for the return of Ronaldo) that is my point and in relation to this actual thread it is some vidication of Ralf Rangnick who was quick to spot how poisenous to the club, Ronaldo had become.

To be honest, I don't think it would be excessive for justifying Cavani kicking your front teeth down your throat for tainting him as a corrupt footballer who downs tools on a club that loves him; furthermore, doing it on a popular United forum with zero evidence apart from your totally neutral gooner opinion. All in my humble opinion, of course.

 

[stevoc]

If you don't care enough please stop replying, if you want to continue this then answer in good faith.

I did stop replying though Dion. Or at I'm trying but you keep replying to my posts.

Start a new thread in the general if you want to discuss minutiae of delegation.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

Would they? They went for Pellegrini because if his stylistic similarities to Guardiola even though there was better managers on paper available.

Pellegrini is nobody's normal choice of "manager similar to Guardiola." His Spanish teams were not particularly similar to Barcelona and his background was quite different (Chilean football).

 

[Forevergiggs1]

Massively wrong. In less than half a season, we are above Liverpool and have beaten them, arguably already better than Citeh, have beaten L'Arse, and would have to be considered at the moment among the top five in the world. Mebbe top 3. Can you imagine if we hadn't had those two-game hiccups against Brighton and Brentford?? ETH has done this in half a season with a month long interruption. Rangnick is full of shite, and again, has said nothing out of the obvious and has been massively wrong about what it would take to return United to greatness. As I said, will be remembered as a babbling blip in a long line of post Fergie folly.

Maybe top 3 club in the world? Arguably better than City? Feck me. ETH has done a fantastic job but let's not go overboard here.

I'm not trying to defend Rangnick but do you think when both took over the reins the exact same situation applied to them both? When Rangnick took over he had to deal with the Cnutwood situation, Martial wanting out, Ronaldo stinking the place up and trying to undermine his captain. Players moral at an all time low which eventually lead to them downing tools after the first feckin game. And not forgetting Pogba and Lingard who were also stinking the place up which further lowered moral.

ETH had the luxury of getting rid of the 3 most toxic players in the dressing room which automatically gave him a distinct advantage. Had a fired up Martial come back into the fold, had a preseason and most importantly was able to sign 4 players in areas we were desperately in need of reinforcing.

ETH is obviously a lot better manager than Rangnick but if he had of come in as interim I honestly don't think we would have faired much better with everything that was happening at the club at the time and if you think ETH has magically turned the club around to make us contenders after 6 months then I feel you're in for a nasty surprise. He's done a great job up until now but there's still a long way to go.

 

[Dion]

I did stop replying though Dion. Or at I'm trying but you keep replying to my posts.

Start a new thread in the general if you want to discuss minutiae of delegation.

You haven't stopped reply though, you're literally replying now.

If you don't want to answer then don't reply, it's that simple. I'm happy to have this discussion with you if you want it but you have to be able to answer basic questions. If not there's nothing else for you to say.

 

[Dion]

Pellegrini is nobody's normal choice of "manager similar to Guardiola." His Spanish teams were not particularly similar to Barcelona and his background was quite different (Chilean football).

Pellegrini is from the same school as Bielsa, who was a direct inspiration to Pep, functionally they've got a lot of similarities.

 

[afrocentricity]

Why don't you two exchange details and get it on FFS!? I'd recommend fisticuffs in Hull as it's cafe tradition..

 

[b82REZ]

To be honest, I don't think it would be excessive for justifying Cavani kicking your front teeth down your throat for tainting him as a corrupt footballer who downs tools on a club that loves him; furthermore, doing it on a popular United forum with zero evidence apart from your totally neutral gooner opinion. All in my humble opinion, of course.

It was a common opinion among United fans last season that Cavani downed tools and had lost motivation after the arrival of Ronaldo. His constant "injuries" for us, only for us to see him fly back home and play for Uruguay kind of confirmed that.

Not sure why you've got so angry and aggressive over such an innocuous comment.

 

[stevoc]

You haven't stopped reply though, you're literally replying now.

If you don't want to answer then don't reply, it's that simple. I'm happy to have this discussion with you if you want it but you have to be able to answer basic questions. If not there's nothing else for you to say.

I am more than capable of answering a question that's on topic in here or start a new thread as I've said.

The better question is why do you keep replying?

 

[stevoc]

Why don't you two exchange details and get it on FFS!? I'd recommend fisticuffs in Hull as it's cafe tradition..

Nothing could get me to Hull and anyway I'm a man of peace.

 

[Robbie Boy]

 

[Belisarius]

It was a common opinion among United fans last season that Cavani downed tools and had lost motivation after the arrival of Ronaldo. His constant "injuries" for us, only for us to see him fly back home and play for Uruguay kind of confirmed that.

Not sure why you've got so angry and aggressive over such an innocuous comment.

I agree. Cavani certainly made the national team a priority with United a distant second. He was nowhere near the player last year that he had been the season before. Linking that change to Ronaldo's arrival is unproven but certainly not far-fetched. I think Nobby's hostile post towards Tigersam is completely over the top and uncalled for.

 

[Dion]

I am more than capable of answering a question that's on topic in here or start a new thread as I've said.

The better question is why do you keep replying?

The evidence suggests otherwise.

I keep replying because you keep asking me questions. If you have nothing to say simply don't reply and this can all end, if that is your wish.

 

[Robbie Boy]

Ralf, Ralf he's our man, if he can't do it, no one can.

 

[stevoc]

The evidence suggests otherwise.

I keep replying because you keep asking me questions. If you have nothing to say simply don't reply and this can all end, if that is your wish.

Do I?

 

[Dion]

Do I?

You also seem to really, really want the last word. But again, I offer you the chance to answer my question and continue the discussion in a constructive manner if you so wish to.