With the lack of pressure we usually put on the ball, we'll concede 10 goals in the next 2 games if we play with a line that high. Need Herrera and Di Maria central and fit.
2
Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 11
- Clean sheets
- 4
- Goals
- 0
- Assists
- 1
- Yellow cards
- 2
- Status
It's silly to blame him for the lost points, he had an excellent game overall, but he's at fault for their second goal. Jones was stupid as well, but no way should Rafael be deeper than a CB, big mistake. Still one of our best players though.
Yesterdays match just sums up Rafael in 90 min. Great going forward, good overall, defending is solid. And then he brainfarts and cost us points.
It's definitely Rafael fault, he shouldn't shout at Berahino. I think he startled him which result in a good shot. If not De Gea will save it!
But we would not be having this conversation if Jones hadn't of left his position. I agree for some reason our full backs are getting pulled to far apart from the center halves but regardless if Rafael was in line with Rojo and if Berahino was in line with them two, there still was so much space to get into because Jones went wondering.
Just to add as coolredwine pointed out, what was Rojo doing anyway. He had no one to mark and saw Jones headless chicken run. The danger was on our right side of the pitch so should of covered as well.
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You can put it the other way round and ask what Rojo/Jones were doing defending at the center line!
Good teams don't mess up a lot though. Our trouble atm is we do a mistake and the opposition manage to score every time. Just like last night where we probably looked our most solid defensively. Two errors from our defence gives WBA there only two shots on target and they score two goals.
If wishes were fishes...
It's possible for two defenders to feck up in the same sequence of events. Which is what happened last night.
West Brom might have scored if Jones was the only defender to make a mistake, the fact him and Rafael both screwed up made it almost inevitable.
Well yes, but nonetheless the fullback is meant at the very least to line up on his CB. That they were too high or that Jones completely went AWOL is another question. The fact of the matter is that his poor positioning kept Berahino onside, and that Berahino went on to score. I absolutely love Rafael and as I said he was actually very good in this match and since the beginning of the season, but that doesn't change he's at fault here.
Just added to my other message but will post here. You have to question Rojo as well. He did not cover for Jones either.
Btw, I am not disputing that Rafael isn't at fault. He played him onside. But There was a collective of errors from multiple defenders that costs us that goal. When you look at the replay last night, both Rafael and Shaw were further back than Rojo. So regardless of Rafael stepping up, shaw would of played him on. Jones shouldn't of done what he did, both fullbacks should be in line but that was a much too high line and Rojo should of helped to cover for Jones. Ultimately, it was still a great finish that Berahino scored from. But it is silly errors that costs us again last night which I think in time, especially the issues with the offside and lack of communication, the more they play together, the more of a unit they will become. Jones still needs to cut out the headless chicken act though. Can't do that as a central defender.
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Yup. All three of them could have defended it better. If I had to put their errors in order of severity, I would say 1. Jones 2. Rafael 3. Rojo
It's all nit-picking though. We haven't been defending as a unit all season. Their second goal epitomised the lack of communication and coordination in our defending. Which is a big problem but has to be mainly down to our inability to play the same back four for two games in a row. All four of them cocked up at different times last night but I'd still pick all four of them on Sunday. Onwards and upwards from here, hopefully.
Just added to my last post again but basically agree with you completely. I still believe it was our best game this season defensively.
Yeah both Centre-backs were caught too square. If Jones goes then Rojo has to position himself to cover and vice-versa. Hopefully that understanding will come with time but at this point in time I don't think they should be trying to play such a high-line so that they have a bit more room for error. Plus playing a high-line requires the midfield to press much much more sharply than they did last night.
I wouldn't want to blame him though. He has been getting the blame for every little thing since last season. This time too, as we were stupidly standing at the half line for some random reason and he and Rojo were left to cover up after Jones left a big gap there. Doubt anyone could have done anything if the central defenders plan to step up the pitch without even communicating.
Agreed and also I think Rojos english isn't great, so that wont help with communication, but with time they will start playing as a defence and not a bunch of defenders.
I would want to see another angle of the goal. From the normal camera angle, it seems both Rafael and Shaw were in line while Jones/Rojo has stepped up.
Me too.
When are people going to wake up to what I have saying for ages - he can't defend. This is nowhere near the first time he has played the opposition onside. That sort of thing would be crucified even at Under 12's level.
Are you from the group that also believes Kyle Walker is better than Rafael?
No! He can't defend either! Don't worry, I don't expect a lot of people to see it yet, I tend to see things quite early.
See things early? Or very selectively wait for chances to prove a point. Having personally watched Raf have many top class wingers in his pocket in certain games, I can say conclusively, he can actually defend. He just has lapses & off games, where he makes errors, this does not mean he cannot defend, it just means he's human & makes mistakes.
For me if the lad stays fit, he's one of the best right backs in world football. Just a shame he never seems to get a good run of games, before he breaks.
Everything is better than Rafael
Really really rate this lad, but he has cost us points 2 times this season already, while he isnt playing bad, and has been excellent at times. That's a bad thing imo, to not reward good play, Rooney is like the complete opposite, doesnt play well at times, but he will end up with a goal or at least an assist.
I guess we'll see if my point is correct in January / next summer, if LVG buys a new right back. I might be wrong, hope I am.
But that is a pointless argument as we know we need another RB. Rafael is our only senior RB and when the cover is Valencia (Janko isn't ready for the step up, not sure with Vermijl if he will make it or not), pretty much everyone agrees Jones and Smalling should never play full back again. So that leaves Rafael as our only RB.
Who would you suggest we replace him with though? Any RBs I can think of who might be available either A) aren't good enough, B) are also weak relatively defensively or C) aren't good enough going forward to suit the way we play.
Do you have a video that shows Shaw further back because the one I'm looking at he is in line with Rojo making Berahino offside. In this video at 2:25 you can see Shaw and Rojo lined up and at 2:34 you can see Rafael is a couple of yards back.
Video just above
Rafael is a couple of yards back, but Shaw is playing Berahino onside.
Maybe I'm blind but I have it paused with the ball on Brunt's foot as he is about to play the ball and Berahino is clearly behind Shaw.
JonesMaybe I'm blind but I have it paused with the ball on Brunt's foot as he is about to play the ball and Berahino is clearly behind Shaw.
Honestly what went through his head there.The point at 2:33-2:34. Both Shaw and Berahino are in line.
I place no blame on him for the dropped points. He is a warrior and the best right back in the league. I see him as an alternative to Rooney as captain.
They aren't though. You can see with the lines in the grass that they aren't. It is the exact same as at 2:25 which I print screened and it shows they aren't in line.
Curious to know the reasons why a lot of people think that he'd be a great captain?
Nothing against Rafael, he's one of my favourite players, and he certainly has a strong mentality I just don't see him as a captain, and would be interested in understanding the reasons why others think he would be a good captain.
Nothing against Rafael, he's one of my favourite players, and he certainly has a strong mentality I just don't see him as a captain, and would be interested in understanding the reasons why others think he would be a good captain.
Tbh, I can think of a couple of reasons and like you, he is my favourite player at united but also do not think he is ready to be captain. One day perhaps. First being the way he plays on the pitch. Always gives 100% and clearly loves playing for united and understands what the club is all about. The other being that in the summer we lost 4 very experienced players in which means Rafael becomes in affect, one of our senior players at 24 now. I think only Fletcher, Rooney and Evans have been at the club longer than Rafael now. Then the other reason is because we don't have a stand out candidate for captain.
Yeah shaw was clearly in line with Rojo the entire time. Rafael was caught further back so it's in part his fault, but also Jones' for stepping out as he did. I don't think we were trying to catch them offside or anything, Rafael just fell asleep a bit and was caught out.Maybe I'm blind but I have it paused with the ball on Brunt's foot as he is about to play the ball and Berahino is clearly behind Shaw.
I think the criticism on Rafael is harsh.
He could've (and maybe should have) done better for their second goal, but people should be a bit more realistic.
You can't expect any player to be perfect. Rafael has been one of our main attacking forces this season while being solid at the back as well.
Apart from maybe Lahm there's no fullback in world football who is as great going forward and doesn't make any mistakes at the back.
The press has created an image of Rafael being an attacking fullback who isn't capable of defending and who is a red card waiting to happen.
Unfortunately, some of our fans have adopted that view. Most of those also rate Zabaleta as the best fullback in the PL, a player who is without a doubt as rash as Rafael in terms of tackling and also picks up a lot of cards, yet he doesn't get a reputation...
The problem with our defence isn't Rafael, it isn't Jones, Rojo or Shaw either. It's them working as a unit.
On paper, the best defences in world football are teams like Chelsea, Atletico Madrid, Juventus etc. Defences consisting of 3 or 4 players who've played together week in, week out for several years now and are very experienced.
Against WBA, we played with a defence with an average age of just over 22 years old. For anyone not following other teams, that's insanely young for a defence at this level. Add to that, that it was only the first time those 4 have played a competitive game together at the back and it should give them some credit. Buying all those top attacking players shouldn't mean that we have the right to criticise any defensive player who makes a mistake. More so than the attacking line, defending is about experience. Not just experience as a defender, but as a unit. When they've played a number of games with the same defenders, they start to anticipate their fellow defender's actions and adjust to that. You can't expect that in their first game together though.
Rafael is our oldest defender and he's 24 years old.
Azpilicueta is Chelsea's youngest defender and he's 25 years old.
As a Man Utd supporter that's something to be proud of. We may be leaking goals now, but this is just the start. If those 4 stay clear of too many injuries, this is only the start for them. We're not a team competing for the title yet, but at least the defence is only going to get better. Another quality defender is certainly welcome, but we've got time on our side.
We've bought some superstar attacking players this summer, but even though our defence is making some mistakes, they display one of the reasons I'm a Man Utd supporter. We build our teams and keep our confidence in our young and talented players. In the end, we reap the benefits and it's 10 times as satisfying than buying a whole top defensive line because we know we developed them. We didn't bench them after one mistake for a more experienced player. We gave them the chance to learn from their faults and fulfill their potential.
This may cost us a 3rd place finish this season, it may even cost us a CL-spot. But if these players keep progressing, we will only get better.
In just 2 years time, apart from Mangala and Azpilicueta, our 2 strongest competitors' first team defenders will be on the decline, while our current players will -hopefully- have progressed a lot and will still be getting better.
They all made mistakes, but if they get spared too many injuries, there's a lot of potential in this defence. Mistakes are a part of the learning progress. Forgiving them and keeping the faith in our young defence's potential is what sets us apart from some of our rivals. Let's keep it that way.
He could've (and maybe should have) done better for their second goal, but people should be a bit more realistic.
You can't expect any player to be perfect. Rafael has been one of our main attacking forces this season while being solid at the back as well.
Apart from maybe Lahm there's no fullback in world football who is as great going forward and doesn't make any mistakes at the back.
The press has created an image of Rafael being an attacking fullback who isn't capable of defending and who is a red card waiting to happen.
Unfortunately, some of our fans have adopted that view. Most of those also rate Zabaleta as the best fullback in the PL, a player who is without a doubt as rash as Rafael in terms of tackling and also picks up a lot of cards, yet he doesn't get a reputation...
The problem with our defence isn't Rafael, it isn't Jones, Rojo or Shaw either. It's them working as a unit.
On paper, the best defences in world football are teams like Chelsea, Atletico Madrid, Juventus etc. Defences consisting of 3 or 4 players who've played together week in, week out for several years now and are very experienced.
Against WBA, we played with a defence with an average age of just over 22 years old. For anyone not following other teams, that's insanely young for a defence at this level. Add to that, that it was only the first time those 4 have played a competitive game together at the back and it should give them some credit. Buying all those top attacking players shouldn't mean that we have the right to criticise any defensive player who makes a mistake. More so than the attacking line, defending is about experience. Not just experience as a defender, but as a unit. When they've played a number of games with the same defenders, they start to anticipate their fellow defender's actions and adjust to that. You can't expect that in their first game together though.
Rafael is our oldest defender and he's 24 years old.
Azpilicueta is Chelsea's youngest defender and he's 25 years old.
As a Man Utd supporter that's something to be proud of. We may be leaking goals now, but this is just the start. If those 4 stay clear of too many injuries, this is only the start for them. We're not a team competing for the title yet, but at least the defence is only going to get better. Another quality defender is certainly welcome, but we've got time on our side.
We've bought some superstar attacking players this summer, but even though our defence is making some mistakes, they display one of the reasons I'm a Man Utd supporter. We build our teams and keep our confidence in our young and talented players. In the end, we reap the benefits and it's 10 times as satisfying than buying a whole top defensive line because we know we developed them. We didn't bench them after one mistake for a more experienced player. We gave them the chance to learn from their faults and fulfill their potential.
This may cost us a 3rd place finish this season, it may even cost us a CL-spot. But if these players keep progressing, we will only get better.
In just 2 years time, apart from Mangala and Azpilicueta, our 2 strongest competitors' first team defenders will be on the decline, while our current players will -hopefully- have progressed a lot and will still be getting better.
They all made mistakes, but if they get spared too many injuries, there's a lot of potential in this defence. Mistakes are a part of the learning progress. Forgiving them and keeping the faith in our young defence's potential is what sets us apart from some of our rivals. Let's keep it that way.
It was a combination of 3 mistakes 1. Rafael not being in line nullifying any possible offside trap 2. Jones going for a ball he had no right trying for when the line was already high (similar to Shaw on goal #1) and 3. Rojo not covering for Jones wild lunge by moving centrally as he had no one marking
Hes my favourite player but with any attacking player, he will be prone to be capitalised on if he does not have a proper unit behind him. Considering he was either the oldest or second oldest player in our defense at the age of 24 shows that we lack experiance heads. We need them because it allows rafael and shaw to freely push on and provide the natural width we have missed in our games.
When we played 5 at the back with wingers, that was not some flukey idea van gaal has, its his idea on how football should be played.
He wants our wingers and wingbacks to be the same, gaurding the whole sides of the pitch, which allows the DM to drop between the left and right centreback creating a fluid back three.
He is a genius, having watched ajax i can tell you he is on to something here. He is still changing the formation around to accommodate his players, but we will benefit the same way the dutch benefited from his brief time there, extending tonthe future.
For example, if rafael went forward to provide a cross, jones shifts to the right to cover him, in turn allowing space for our DM to fall in to cover jones. This means we never have less than 4 defenders no matter whether rafael or shaw provides the width.
When we played 5 at the back with wingers, that was not some flukey idea van gaal has, its his idea on how football should be played.
He wants our wingers and wingbacks to be the same, gaurding the whole sides of the pitch, which allows the DM to drop between the left and right centreback creating a fluid back three.
He is a genius, having watched ajax i can tell you he is on to something here. He is still changing the formation around to accommodate his players, but we will benefit the same way the dutch benefited from his brief time there, extending tonthe future.
For example, if rafael went forward to provide a cross, jones shifts to the right to cover him, in turn allowing space for our DM to fall in to cover jones. This means we never have less than 4 defenders no matter whether rafael or shaw provides the width.
I thought the same about Rojo but after watching it again I don't really see how he could've got accross. Even if he'd moved as soon as Jones flung forward it would've been too late.
I'm not sure why we were playing such a high line, but if you're going to play that way it's criminal to be a full-back and be 5 to 10 yards further back than your teammates.
Saying all that, it's a back four with two new players so we have to expect some mistakes.
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