@Raees Any chance of sticking some of these GIFs in spoilers as per annah's instructions? Not normally arsed either way but it's getting difficult to load the page (especially on the mobile).
Raees/Invictus VS Gio/Theon - NT Peak draft - Semi Final
- Thread starter Annahnomoss
- Start date
Perhaps it's time for Il Fenomeno.
Hell even two of the defenders on the park seem unsure on how to deal with him:
“The best player I have seen in my career.”
Clarence Seedorf
“Ronaldo was my hero. He was the best striker I’ve ever seen. He was so fast he could score from nothing”
Lionel Messi
“What made Ronaldo different was his sheer physical strength. He is the best I have played with.”
Luis Figo
“I’ve never seen a player able to show such precise control at such a high speed. Watching him was like watching a character in a video game.”
Marcel Desailly
He is so quick he makes everyone else look as if they are standing still.”
–Alessandro Nesta
He’s not a man, he’s a herd. He didn’t come to France [1998 World Cup] to compete with the players of his generation but to seek a place amongst the best of the two millennia – this one and the coming.
— Jorge Valdano
Clarence Seedorf
“Ronaldo was my hero. He was the best striker I’ve ever seen. He was so fast he could score from nothing”
Lionel Messi
“What made Ronaldo different was his sheer physical strength. He is the best I have played with.”
Luis Figo
“I’ve never seen a player able to show such precise control at such a high speed. Watching him was like watching a character in a video game.”
Marcel Desailly
He is so quick he makes everyone else look as if they are standing still.”
–Alessandro Nesta
He’s not a man, he’s a herd. He didn’t come to France [1998 World Cup] to compete with the players of his generation but to seek a place amongst the best of the two millennia – this one and the coming.
— Jorge Valdano
Hell even two of the defenders on the park seem unsure on how to deal with him:
CRUYFF V ZIDANE CLASHING (OR BUTTING HEADS.. SORRY COULDN'T RESIST)
- Both like to roam across the pitch, construct the game as they wish
- Prefer to dribble down left if they can, but need the full pitch to engage their playmaking
- Occupy central areas, and dictate play
Got to agree with Gio that the mistake there was all on Helmer for that ham-fisted attempted clearance. As regards quality of opposition, I don't think either defence comes up short in that regard. To take Baresi (1990) and Cannavaro (2006) for example, Baresi came up against CFs including Skuhravy, Polster, Caniggia, Quinn, Lineker, Fonseca and whoever the USA centre forward was, plus deeper attacking threats like Maradona, Francescoli and Beardsley. Cannavaro faced off agaainst CFs including Gyan, Donovan/McBride, Baros, Viduka, Shevchenko and Henry, with other attacking players like Nedved, Ballack, Zidane and Ribery. There's no gulf either way there IMO.
I wasn't saying Baresi 90 faced superior opposition, but that the 94 version did snuff out Romario almost single-handedly in that performance.
Sheva was shot in 2006, Henry wasn't in his prime either and the other guys are attacking mids, so don't come in to it. I mean it is marginal stuff, but marking out a all time great CF in his absolute prime is not to be sniffed at and Van Basten is in that category and for me I haven't seen anything in Cannavaro's 2006 resume which makes me think he'd mark out Van Basten in his prime with Maradona and Eusebio in support.
That isn't to belittle the guys achievements, he was immense.. but so was Van Basten in 1988 and imo he's in the top three CF's of all time, it would take an all time great defender with impeccable credentials to mark him out of a game. Whilst Cannavaro has impeccable international credentials in 2006, I wouldn't put him in that highest tier defensively where I'd back him to take out a R9, Muller or Van Basten in his prime.. whereas with Baresi, you'd back him to have a better shot.
Think Baresi has the edge there tho in terms of opposition. In 2006 Cannavaro had an impeccable tournament but Gyan, Donovan, Baros, Viduka doesn't scream goals. I don't think Sheva in particular had a very good WC either to be honest. Sammer IMO had more impressive opposition in Casiraghi, Zola, Del Piero, Suker, Shearer, etc...Got to agree with Gio that the mistake there was all on Helmer for that ham-fisted attempted clearance
Yet Romario had a golden chance or two which he should have buried. It was a very credible performance and remarkable comeback from Baresi, but Romario really ought to have finished the job before penalties.
That take on matters defeats the purpose of the draft though. It's about tournament performances, not about reputation. Cannavaro won a Ballon D'Or purely on the back of those performances, it doesn't get any higher than that. He joins only 2 other defenders to have achieved that award - his teammate Sammer and Beckenbauer. His credibility here is impeccable.
Come on now mate...Shevchenko was coming off a fantastic season with Milan (28 goals in 40 games and CL top scorer), and Henry had just hit 33 goals in 45 games for Arsenal. They were both absolutely amongt the most feared strikers around at that time. I've voted for you already and I rate that attack exceptionally highly, but Cannavaro's 2006 tournament was top notch, and the quality of opposition very good..
* I mention AMs/wingers in passing simply as they clearly affect the overall quality of the opposition attack, and also as it seemed unfair to you to specify Fonseca/Caniggia as Baresi opponents in 1990 while not acknowledging the need to keep tabs on Maradona/Francescoli as well.
Huh? World Cup 2006 was after the 05/06 season and lest I remind you it was the summer before his move to Chelsea where he was an absolute flop. He wasn't as quick as 02-04 and was not at his best in that World Cup either.
Henry was playing well, I wouldn't say he was in his prime and nor would I ever classify that Henry as being alongside Romario 94 or Van Basten 88.
That said, I still think Cannvaro was immense during 2006.
Agree that Sammer came up against some pretty impressive opposition in 1996. Sheva didn't have a glittering WC by any means, but he had scored 2 in 4 matches prior to the Italy match. Baros will overall be remembered as shite, but let's not forget that he was a respectable international striker around that time with the service of the Czech's impressive attacking midfielders. He's probably a comparable threat to someone like Polster, who had a good scoring ratio at inernational level but never made any impact at a major tournament. I'm getting far too into this really, probably because I was so happy to have picked Cannavaro initially
, but his record at that WC was beyond reproach really.To me dismissing Shevchenko as being 'shot' in 2006 is just revisionism. We all know he went to shite bizarrely quickly after joining Chelsea, but he was easily one of the most feared strikers in the world going into that 2006 World Cup. 28 goals in 40 games in 2005/06, 9 in 12 in the CL to finish as top scorer, and a tie-equalising goal wrongly disallowed vs Barca in a CL semi-final just a few months before:
Ultimately it comes down to a couple of key points:
- Fit and quality of the defences - I think we've got a higher level of tournament performances in our back three and goalkeeper. All of them are well experienced in a back three, unlike the opposing defence with neither Baresi or Desailly having with any familiarity with it
- A central midfield partnership that has nullified Maradona or Messi on 4 seperate occasions in World Cups (3 of them in finals). Part of the rationale in choosing Matthaus was that eventually we would have to face Maradona and there is nobody better than his greatest rival to go head-to-head with him.
- A turbocharged frontline that may well be too hot to handle. Cruyff created more chances than anyone else in 1974 while Ronaldo was at the absolute peak of his powers. I don't think Bergomi, as good as he was, is quite stellar enough in this company based on his '88 performances, to shut out that kind of exceptional threat. In contrast, Thuram matches up well to Eusebio in terms of quality and attributes as does Cannavaro 2006 with Van Basten.
Being shot in 2006 is harsh I agree. But IMO he was over the hill at that time. He hadn't scored a single goal in 3-4 months going into that WC and think he had some minor injuries in the last couple of months being in and out of Milan team on occasion.
He was very good against the Saudi's in the group stage, scored a peno against Tunisia but then was underwhelming against Switzerland and Italy.
Nothing to take away from Cannavaro of course - you can beat only those who are on the other side of the pitch, but if we should also mind the opposition and the level they faced. For example red hot Shearer and Suker in that 1996 EURO, that Sammer faced I'd put in higher regard.
Went with Raees/Invictus. At the end of the day it comes down to the trident up front as both sides are perfect elsewhere and Baresi and Sammer will have a similar influence in different ways. I'm not the biggest fan of either sides front three to be frank. While it could work there are too many question marks for me to see all of those players reaching their best and none of them will be elevated by their partners by any means. Ronaldo loves dropping deep to burst forward at full pace, and for Cruyff it was a big part of his game as well and Zidane is already there occupying that space and role. So while Zidane would have a key role here it's at the expense of Cruyff and Ronaldo.
On the other hand I don't think van Basten and Eusebio will play their best football here either with Maradona as the clear star running the show. But it does look a tad bit more likely to work just because of the individualism of Maradona in particular. Ronaldo looks like the stand out star for Gio/Theon for me at least and that says something about Cruyff not being in the best possible role.
Sounds negative but that was only because the rest of the team is so damn perfect it makes it pointless to talk about. Overall outstanding drafting from both teams.
On the other hand I don't think van Basten and Eusebio will play their best football here either with Maradona as the clear star running the show. But it does look a tad bit more likely to work just because of the individualism of Maradona in particular. Ronaldo looks like the stand out star for Gio/Theon for me at least and that says something about Cruyff not being in the best possible role.
Sounds negative but that was only because the rest of the team is so damn perfect it makes it pointless to talk about. Overall outstanding drafting from both teams.
In a game as tight as this.. it will take something miraculous to breach these defences... the story of Van Basten and the greatest European Championship goal ever scored (imagine Brehme putting in that cross)
ZANETTI'S LACK OF INTERNATIONAL CREDENTIALS..
Hour to go ..
So will discuss Zanetti as my final topic. I think he has by far the weakest international credentials in the semi finals, let alone this particular match up.
@antohan I understand he was good in Copa America 2004, but everyone else in these encounters is either a world cup winner, european championship winner, or world cup finalists with legendary performances to back it up.
What has Zanetti done in world cups to merit being on this pitch? I mean we utilized Suarez earlier in the tournament, who has a pretty good world cup record but we felt uneasy in putting him out at this stage of the draft.. but Zanetti's credentials here do not stand up to scrutiny.
Look at the Brazil lineup - it is laughable..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_Copa_América_Final
Hour to go ..
So will discuss Zanetti as my final topic. I think he has by far the weakest international credentials in the semi finals, let alone this particular match up.
@antohan I understand he was good in Copa America 2004, but everyone else in these encounters is either a world cup winner, european championship winner, or world cup finalists with legendary performances to back it up.
What has Zanetti done in world cups to merit being on this pitch? I mean we utilized Suarez earlier in the tournament, who has a pretty good world cup record but we felt uneasy in putting him out at this stage of the draft.. but Zanetti's credentials here do not stand up to scrutiny.
Look at the Brazil lineup - it is laughable..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_Copa_América_Final
Perhaps it's time for Il Fenomeno.
“The best player I have seen in my career.”
Clarence Seedorf
“Ronaldo was my hero. He was the best striker I’ve ever seen. He was so fast he could score from nothing”
Lionel Messi
“What made Ronaldo different was his sheer physical strength. He is the best I have played with.”
Luis Figo
“I’ve never seen a player able to show such precise control at such a high speed. Watching him was like watching a character in a video game.”
Marcel Desailly
He is so quick he makes everyone else look as if they are standing still.”
–Alessandro Nesta
He’s not a man, he’s a herd. He didn’t come to France [1998 World Cup] to compete with the players of his generation but to seek a place amongst the best of the two millennia – this one and the coming.
— Jorge Valdano
Hell even two of the defenders on the park seem unsure on how to deal with him:
Surprised you haven't focused more on him.
That.. was a terrible cross.
He has 145 caps and is Argentina's record all-time caps holder. He had an excellent debut World Cup in 1998 in a 3-4-3, scoring that brilliant set-piece against England. He was one of the stars of the 2004 Copa America. Yet he lacks international credentials?
I'm not really sure it's fair to downplay the Copa America in that manner - relative to the Euros at least. Let's be honest, if there was a formal Team of the Tournament for every Copa America in the same way there is one for the Euros, Zanetti would have been picked up a lot earlier than he did.
To re-post from earlier:
We could have gone with 1998 - when FIFA said that "Zanetti was notable for his physical ability and surprising and effective forward surges in a 3-4-3" - but 2004 was undoubtedly his best tournament. You'll have seen the World Soccer praise from 2004:
And that wasn't just some generic praise - it was part of some section naming it's 3 stars of the competition. Elsewhere it also included some specifics around "his rampaging down the flank against Peru".
Or even the Guardian's summary of the tournament:
He was also named in a team of the tournament.
A few short clips to get a feel for his role:
Admittedly he has had a slightly weird international career, getting dropped for a couple of tournaments by lunatic managers, yet at the same time still piling up 145 caps. But there's no question over the calibre of his performances in 2004.
Importantly he fits well: it's not easy to find two greater flank dominators in a 3-5-2 than Carlos and Zanetti.
It is completely fair when you look at the standard of the sides of that Copa America.. it was one of the weakest tournaments of the modern era. The Brazil side only had Adriano as its star, the rest of the side was shocking (and a young unknown Maicon at right back.. whereas Argentina's squad was pumped full of talent).
SQUAD LIST COPA AMERICA 2004
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_Copa_América_squads
Last edited:
Last 10 minutes.. squeaky bum time.
Final thoughts on why we can win:
Final thoughts on why we can win:
- Stronger 1 v 1 defenders in our defensive trio (perfect against their attack)
- Superior wing backs with proven international credentials
- Ideal blend in midfield with everyone in their proper roles
- Diego Maradona in 1986 form
- Better fit in attack, and in 1988 Van basten an all round complete striker who can score goals to win a tournament
But if Brehme puts in quality crosses, how will van Basten get to volley like that?
Love your midfield by the way. Posters are liking Gio's German spine, but the trio of Varela, Tigana and Diego is so balanced!
Well I think both semi-finals were marginal at best and could have gone either way. Unlucky, the team was basically flawless so it was difficult to find anything wrong with it.
Voted on the same basis. When a game looks tight and probably a draw you can bank on that combo to decide it.
It's hard to, as it was a shit cross
That was it for me too. Both sides were pretty much draft-winning quality to me already, but Raees/Invictus had the most likely match winners based on tournament peaks. Great game, and deservedly close as feck.
Who would win based solely on their performance in the chosen tournaments?
-----------Raees/Invictus--------------------------Gio/Theon
Busy week so let's say it's never too late to add a comment.
I've voted for Invictus/Raees because:
- I find their defence much more robust despite the fact Sammer was the most 'impact defender' from an 'international peak draft perspective'
- Maradona factor: Zidane is a GOAT but Maradona is on another planet
- Cruyff (false 9), Zidane 00 (#10) and Matthaus 90 (heart of the game) together
: so many compromisesI know it's not a remake draft but I thought an international draft and a trivial all-time draft were 2 different things.
I'm maybe a fundamentalist or a narrow-minded poster
Just curious, which role fits Maradona better?
AM is a 4-4-2 diamond or as an SS in a flat 4-4-2
...ST.....ST...
......Diego.....
...CM....CM...
.......DM......
or
...........FW.........
......Diego...........
LW...CM...CM...RW
It's nuanced, but first role has him in a more creative role and the 2nd role is more attacking (a la Cantona/Bergkamp type).
AM is a 4-4-2 diamond or as an SS in a flat 4-4-2
...ST.....ST...
......Diego.....
...CM....CM...
.......DM......
or
...........FW.........
......Diego...........
LW...CM...CM...RW
It's nuanced, but first role has him in a more creative role and the 2nd role is more attacking (a la Cantona/Bergkamp type).
Just saw that Gio/Theon have taken (the energetic) Maradona instead of (the slow man who likes to keep the ball) Zidane is an excellent choice to make the offensive strategy more harmonious and brilliant
@Edgar Allan Pillow
He was brilliant as a #10 or SS. Maybe, he was rather deployed as a #10 with Napoli (see ma-gi-ca) and as a SS wit Argentina.
@antohan will be happy to answer your question here
He was brilliant as a #10 or SS. Maybe, he was rather deployed as a #10 with Napoli (see ma-gi-ca) and as a SS wit Argentina.
@antohan will be happy to answer your question here
Second.
Yeah, was wondering if one version was better than the other.
Thought so. Thanks!
Whilst waiting for the final I'd be interested in hearing people's GOAT line-up built around Maradona. In a 4231 I was thinking something like this:
------------------------MVB---------
C. Ronaldo--Maradona---Figo
------------Rikjaard---Neeskens----
Facchetti--Kohler----Figueroa---Thuram
-----------------Schmeichel------------
@antohan @Edgar Allan Pillow
------------------------MVB---------
C. Ronaldo--Maradona---Figo
------------Rikjaard---Neeskens----
Facchetti--Kohler----Figueroa---Thuram
-----------------Schmeichel------------
@antohan @Edgar Allan Pillow
@Physiocrat not bad attempt at all.
I'd probably have the same but with Muller instead of MvB as the better pure finisher to be at the end of those chances.
I'd probably have the same but with Muller instead of MvB as the better pure finisher to be at the end of those chances.
Thanks. Went for MVB as I like that extra height for my strikers for the crosses
Not exactly GOAT depending on how you rate certain players, but this should work well for Diego. Always felt that he would operate best in a slightly offset inside forward role on the left (which was where he mostly played for Napoli, unless I'm mistaken), and the team is selfless enough to cater to him:
You could make an argument for someone else over Rummenigge, but he provides the best blend of quality + movement + tactical werewithal - and the partnership with Müller is an added bonus.
Alberto over Cafú, even though the latter played with Nesta - like him better in a 2 man flank behind Rummenigge.
You could make an argument for someone else over Rummenigge, but he provides the best blend of quality + movement + tactical werewithal - and the partnership with Müller is an added bonus.
Alberto over Cafú, even though the latter played with Nesta - like him better in a 2 man flank behind Rummenigge.
@Invictus Gento is a great shout actually on the left. He isn't often in contention when GOATs are participating in the discussion, but his style IMO suits Maradona very well.
Last edited:
@Invictus Like that setup a lot. I could only think of left rather than right forwards when composing the line-up. Kalle is a much better team player and would work better with Maradona than C. Ronaldo