Racism in European Football

Just discovered that John Barnes was nicknamed Digger. Made me think of this incident/thread considering he played for Liverpool too, and at a time where racism was much worse in English football. Wonder if there was ever any misunderstandings with him?

Named after "Digger Barnes" from the 1980s American soap opera, Dallas. That was hugely popular, I remember my mum watching it and it's rival Dynasty.
 
LDUred said:
Woah, chill. I just think you need to consider this from both angles. Racism is globally a huge issue and regardless of what words exist in the German language, calling black people by names that are more or less the same as the n-word is just not smart let alone sensitive.

I am not black but I have known and know people who have been racially abused (some in the context of sport) and it goes pretty deep. It's always better to just be mindful of the language we use and how it might be construed.
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I'm sorry but that's silly, you are essentially demanding that people don't think in or speak their own language because a foreigner could wrongly interpret a foreign language. We only have that kind of nonsense because english speakers think that only english exists. It reminds me the drama around the word "Nega" in Korean music and people losing it and demanding the cancellation of K-Pop and Korean Hip Hop artists, nega means you.
 
JPRouve said:
I'm sorry but that's silly, you are essentially demanding that people don't think in or speak their own language because a foreigner could wrongly interpret a foreign language. We only have that kind of nonsense because english speakers think that only english exists. It reminds me the drama around the word "Nega" in Korean music and people losing it and demanding the cancellation of K-Pop and Korean Hip Hop artists, nega means you.
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A very similar word is used in Chinese I believe. There was an incident in recent years in the US where a professor was talking about filler words that people sometimes use. He was using the example of the word "nei ge", used similarly to "ummm", "like", or "ya' know" in China and got suspended for it.
 
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JPRouve said:
I'm sorry but that's silly, you are essentially demanding that people don't think in or speak their own language because a foreigner could wrongly interpret a foreign language. We only have that kind of nonsense because english speakers think that only english exists. It reminds me the drama around the word "Nega" in Korean music and people losing it and demanding the cancellation of K-Pop and Korean Hip Hop artists, nega means you.
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I forgot about that one, digga!
 
LDUred said:
It's common sense not to call a black person a name that sounds more or less identical to the n-word. It's blatantly obvious that on a football pitch, playing against black people, that anyone would naturally make the association between this word, 'digga', and the n-word. With so many other terms available, choosing the one term in your vocabulary that could potentially be confused with the n-word is a bit suspicious to say the least.

There's a handful of words in the English language that sound like the n-word that people now don't use around black people (or at all) for exactly the same reason: they could be confused with the most highly charged racist term that exists. It's not hard to simply select your words more carefully and be mindful of how they might be interpreted.
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I know this post has got some grief, but I just want to emphasis quite how dumb this is by providing you a bit more context about what 'digga' is.

Digga, as someone has said to you already, comes from dicker (to be precise it's Hamburg dialect) and means 'friend'. It comes from the word 'dick' meaning 'thick or fat' with the sense of 'thick as theives', 'thick friends' etc... The 'ck' is pronounced like a double gg in Hamburgerisch hence its spelling as 'digga' There is absolutely no negative connotation in the word itself, it does not derive from the english n-word or its German equivalent, and the average speaker who uses the word has absolutely zero association between it and the n-word. It is also often used as a term of frustration similar to how a Brit might say 'mate' or an American 'dude' and similar to how Germans would also say 'alter' or Austrians 'oida'.

Asking people to police it would be akin to asking English speakers to stop saying any word with 'egg' in it because a German speaker could misinterpret it as their n-word. It's an unfortunate coincidence and whilst Liverpool were right to stop the game and seek clarification about what was said, it's such an easily explained miscommunication that should never have escalated to the point it did. This is even less of an issue than the FA's charging of Cavani, where at least the word 'negrito' has a reference to colour, because there is absolutely no meaning to the word whatsoever beyond 'dude'. What is needed is cool heads and understanding of different languages, rather than arrogant assumptions that every other world language should change to suit the ears of English speakers.
 
We had similar nonsense with Cavani. People taking issue with this need to grow up and realise there's a whole world out there with many dialects.
 
SuperiorXI said:
It's similar in the sense that there is no negativity attached to what was said, no racist intent, nothing whatsoever to conclude it was racist other than pure ignorance of other dialects and cultures.
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Pretty much. My best friend's nickname is "Negro" (literal translation of black), and he looks more native/mediterranean than african. If we have a fat friend, we call him "el gordo" (the fat one), a short friend "enano" (dwarf), if he's packing "burrito" (lil donkey), if he's ugly "facha" (looker, ironically saying he has good looks).

That's the way nicknames are down here.
 
Just Hope said:
Pretty much. My best friend's nickname is "Negro" (literal translation of black), and he looks more native/mediterranean than african. If we have a fat friend, we call him "el gordo" (the fat one), a short friend "enano" (dwarf), if he's packing "burrito" (lil donkey), if he's ugly "facha" (looker, ironically saying he has good looks).

That's the way nicknames are down here.
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That's how nicknames work here too... at primary schools. Later most people grow up and start respecting others a bit.
 
I see Garnacho’s nickname in Argentina is “El Bichito”.
Whether its racist or not, is beside the point, its pretty damn offensive.

As United supporters we shall come together and demand they change his nickname, just call him “Ale” for crying out loud.
 
Just Hope said:
Pretty much. My best friend's nickname is "Negro" (literal translation of black), and he looks more native/mediterranean than african. If we have a fat friend, we call him "el gordo" (the fat one), a short friend "enano" (dwarf), if he's packing "burrito" (lil donkey), if he's ugly "facha" (looker, ironically saying he has good looks).
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Does anyone in SA understand the concept of context :lol:

You can't say that referring to someone by the colour of their skin or something else can never have any negative connotation, just because anecdotally it doesn't for you. You are speaking for a group of people you don't belong to.
 
RedC said:
Does anyone in SA understand the concept of context :lol:

You can't say that referring to someone by the colour of their skin or something else can never have any negative connotation, just because anecdotally it doesn't for you. You are speaking for a group of people you don't belong to.
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I think it goes both ways. Education is much more useful than just labeling someone a racist simply because they come from a culture where they don't observe the same sensitivities. I had a similar experience when I went to say hi to an American and tried to kiss him on the cheek. He looked like I had just tried to assault him, but men here kiss each other on the cheek all the time. Expecting everyone you meet to know and conform to your cultural standards, especially when there is no malice involved, only impedes progress.

On a tangential note, the other day I was thinking about how cultural differences and expectations cause these misunderstandings, especially when it comes to football. For instance, in British culture, sportsmanship is paramount, while in South America, winning is what matters most. Exaggerating fouls is seen as a bad thing to do, while we consider it smart because it can cause the opposing team to lose a player and, in turn, gain an advantage. Martinez's "shithousing" is another clear example of what many consider going against the values of sportsmanship.

But holding the position that the game should be played in a certain way and that those who don't accommodate that expectation are wrong is, in itself, a form of cultural imposition. Expecting everyone to adhere to one cultural standard disregards and imposes upon the cultural norms and values of others.

Of course, this doesn't apply to cases of racism—just a thought I had yesterday in the shower.
 
I get how 'digga' comes from 'dicker' in etymology and slang manipulating words but isn't it awfully conveniently close to the n version?

Like they could've gone any which way with it to make it their own and they picked that way? Not like Hamburger/Hamburgerin are alien to English, slang English and racist words is it?

It's almost entirely innocent but almost isn't 100%
 
matherto said:
I get how 'digga' comes from 'dicker' in etymology and slang manipulating words but isn't it awfully conveniently close to the n version?

Like they could've gone any which way with it to make it their own and they picked that way? Not like Hamburger/Hamburgerin are alien to English, slang English and racist words is it?

It's almost entirely innocent but almost isn't 100%
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It is 100% innocent. It was even popularized by black rappers in Germany like Samy Deluxe or Dennis Lisk. You really shouldn't make assumptions like this about serious topics like this one, if you don't know what you're talking about. Dockworkers from the 70's in Hamburg didn't give a single shit about the English N-word. And if they had wanted to racially abuse someone, they certainly would have used the German spelling and pronunciation of the word and not the English one. We have our own language. We don't need the English one to abuse anyone.
 
Just Hope said:
I think it goes both ways. Education is much more useful than just labeling someone a racist simply because they come from a culture where they don't observe the same sensitivities. I had a similar experience when I went to say hi to an American and tried to kiss him on the cheek. He looked like I had just tried to assault him, but men here kiss each other on the cheek all the time. Expecting everyone you meet to know and conform to your cultural standards, especially when there is no malice involved, only impedes progress.

On a tangential note, the other day I was thinking about how cultural differences and expectations cause these misunderstandings, especially when it comes to football. For instance, in British culture, sportsmanship is paramount, while in South America, winning is what matters most. Exaggerating fouls is seen as a bad thing to do, while we consider it smart because it can cause the opposing team to lose a player and, in turn, gain an advantage. Martinez's "shithousing" is another clear example of what many consider going against the values of sportsmanship.

But holding the position that the game should be played in a certain way and that those who don't accommodate that expectation are wrong is, in itself, a form of cultural imposition. Expecting everyone to adhere to one cultural standard disregards and imposes upon the cultural norms and values of others.

Of course, this doesn't apply to cases of racism—just a thought I had yesterday in the shower.
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There are plenty of people in Ireland that would have been called 'black <name>' or some other reference to their skin colour, by everyone in their town, or friends, or people they play sports with, especially in more working class areas. The same claims would be made, 'ah he doesn't care at all, there's no malice in it, it's just his nickname', and I could guarantee you that literally nobody is actually happy with being called something like that, people just don't want to cause a fuss, especially if they are a minority, so they'll just go along with it. Such a stupid thing to claim as part of your culture.
 
HTG said:
It is 100% innocent. It was even popularized by black rappers in Germany like Samy Deluxe or Dennis Lisk. You really shouldn't make assumptions like this about serious topics like this one, if you don't know what you're talking about. Dockworkers from the 70's in Hamburg didn't give a single shit about the English N-word. And if they had wanted to racially abuse someone, they certainly would have used the German spelling and pronunciation of the word and not the English one. We have our own language. We don't need the English one to abuse anyone.
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I mean, unless you were a dockworker who uttered it for the first time back then you don't really know either do you? And if it was poularised by black rappers then that's further evidence pointing the other way give they use the gga variant of the N word. You could easily see them adding that spin to dicker and thus it would be racial in it's etymology. Plus it being the 70's and dockworkers hardly being the bastion of culture at the time...

I'm happy to concede it's 100% innocent and happy to defer to yourself and the other native Germans on here/elsewhere but it's so ridiculously similar and why would it be used in the way it has been in an U19 match between Frankfurt and Liverpool? It's clearly not been said in an innocent manner but the excuse/explanation seems incredibly rich.
 
matherto said:
I'm happy to concede it's 100% innocent but it's so ridiculously similar and why would it be used in the way it has been in an U19 match between Frankfurt and Liverpool? I doubt it's been said in an innocent manner.
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Because German teenagers, for many years now, have been virtually incapable of forming two sentences in a row that do not contain Digga, Alter, or both in some manner. It's literally been everywhere for German youth for what I'd say is at least fifteen years, if not more. So a German teenager uttering it multiple time during a 90mins football game is about as likely as snow on the Everest.
And no, no matter what you're trying so hard to construe it does not, nor has it ever, had anything to do with the N-word. Not historically, not today either. Literally nobody thinks "maybe we can use it to use the N-word without using the N-word".
 
Chipper said:
Just discovered that John Barnes was nicknamed Digger. Made me think of this incident/thread considering he played for Liverpool too, and at a time where racism was much worse in English football. Wonder if there was ever any misunderstandings with him?

Named after "Digger Barnes" from the 1980s American soap opera, Dallas. That was hugely popular, I remember my mum watching it and it's rival Dynasty.
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See surely that's on purpose, knowing what things were like back then.
 
maybe I shouldn't admit this because it's so stupid

but I thought John Barnes was called digger because his initials are JCB
 
It's 'soft' racism (if there is such a thing) but it always makes me a bit uncomfortable when black players almost routinely get compared to other black players.

Tall, black midfielder? Next Yaya Toure.

Talented black French attacker? Next Thierry Henry.

It's often, but not always, layered with nationality as well eg. the Henry example.

Fans and pundits both do it all the time.
 
sugar_kane said:
It's 'soft' racism (if there is such a thing) but it always makes me a bit uncomfortable when black players almost routinely get compared to other black players.

Tall, black midfielder? Next Yaya Toure.

Talented black French attacker? Next Thierry Henry.

It's often, but not always, layered with nationality as well eg. the Henry example.

Fans and pundits both do it all the time.
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I always found the 'White Pele' thing with Rooney weird as feck.

English Pele, Scouse Pele no problem. Why bring in race?
 
Zaphod2319 said:
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If Chelsea considered the matter closed, then that is disappointing and the FA need to step in and give him some kind of match ban.

It's good hear that the players have got together and hashed it out between them.
 
It's under FIFA's jurisdiction isn't it? No idea what their procedures are.
 
HTG said:
It is 100% innocent. It was even popularized by black rappers in Germany like Samy Deluxe or Dennis Lisk. You really shouldn't make assumptions like this about serious topics like this one, if you don't know what you're talking about. Dockworkers from the 70's in Hamburg didn't give a single shit about the English N-word. And if they had wanted to racially abuse someone, they certainly would have used the German spelling and pronunciation of the word and not the English one. We have our own language. We don't need the English one to abuse anyone.
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It's true the German language has more than enough words to abuse players but the abuse is more likely to provoke a reaction if the opponent understands what is being said. Whenever I played tournaments in Europe the opponents always swore at us in English because we wouldn't understand if they did so in their native language.

Anyway, good to see the sideshow bob defence is still as strong as ever. "Did you racially abuse this player?" "No. That's German for 'the friend, the.'"
 
Señor Alec Thompson said:
It's true the German language has more than enough words to abuse players but the abuse is more likely to provoke a reaction if the opponent understands what is being said. Whenever I played tournaments in Europe the opponents always swore at us in English because we wouldn't understand if they did so in their native language.

Anyway, good to see the sideshow bob defence is still as strong as ever. "Did you racially abuse this player?" "No. That's German for 'the friend, the.'"
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In the end we will never know what the truth here is and only the player who uttered the words will know. But as already discussed "digga" is like dude, mate or something similar and is very popular with the younger generation afaik. So the chance that this was just an unfortunate misunderstanding is not exactly small.
 
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