Progressing the ball through midfield…

One way traffic midfield progression for opposition. Personnel is one thing, in comparison to Newcastle who got their two regular CMs out and injuries at the back, it's inexcusable.
 
tomaldinho1 said:
There’s just a vacuum in there. Like what is the actual plan, just have Bruno try first time balls and that’s basically it?
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Well even in transition, you've got McTominay struggling trying to control the ball, let alone making an actual pass.
 
Lash said:
Well even in transition, you've got McTominay struggling trying to control the ball, let alone making an actual pass.
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That second midfielder is the biggest issue we have. I can’t understand how we can’t realise if you start Bruno you have to play a pair behind him. Especially away from home.
 
Crashoutcassius said:
Whole team is badly coached. Every part of the team looks rubbish..Maguire is exceptional defender when playing deep so playing very well, Shaw is probably our one world class player and looks good whenever he plays. Everyone else looks poor and it is clearly down to how the team is coached
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I agree I said beforehand that Erik was an overrated coach and underrated manager on the basis of last season's finish but his inability to move this team beyond first gear is making him less reputable.

Mount was purchased and there were ball progressive midfielders in the market (Kovacic and Nunes). This tells me that the managers intention was to press high up and use the structure of the press to keep the team high so there's no need to play intricately through the midfield. The issue is the manager has failed to drive intensity into the players. So the approach of pressing beyond the midfield might work, but the intangibles that make it work (attitudes) the manager has failed to adequately coach and build the right mentality around.

I refuse to critique these players under those circumstances. Last season I felt the players undermined he manager as I could see what the team was trying to do. This season it's the total opposite, Erik has set them up to fail the summer signings are a massive contribution to this.
 
Too many of the current players are very poor dribblers, therefore it is impossible for them to be comfortable when being pressed by opponents.
 
tomaldinho1 said:
That second midfielder is the biggest issue we have. I can’t understand how we can’t realise if you start Bruno you have to play a pair behind him. Especially away from home.
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Agreed, you can see why he wanted him gone in the summer, but I struggle to see how he didn't play Amrabaat instead and shift Bruno and Mainoo forward one?
 
Lash said:
Agreed, you can see why he wanted him gone in the summer, but I struggle to see how he didn't play Amrabaat instead and shift Bruno and Mainoo forward one?
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The only reason I can think of is we have such an utter lack of goal threat that McT does add some ability there as a runner. That’s about it, he has nothing else. But the trade off is to basically say ‘have the midfield, we’ll catch you on the break’
 
tomaldinho1 said:
The only reason I can think of is we have such an utter lack of goal threat that McT does add some ability there as a runner. That’s about it, he has nothing else. But the trade off is to basically say ‘have the midfield, we’ll catch you on the break’
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Yeah, I said in another thread, he's like Ten Hags Fellaini. He is ceding controlling the game for an attacking threat - to be fair it not like we have many, so I can understand it.
 
How we don’t have a plan B when teams press the GK on goal kicks is beyond me. They have 3 players outside our box. Another option behind them would mean we bypass them.

Also this thing that Onana does when he hangs onto the ball instead of releasing it quickly is stupid.
 
Lash said:
Agreed, you can see why he wanted him gone in the summer, but I struggle to see how he didn't play Amrabaat instead and shift Bruno and Mainoo forward one?
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McTominay got a goal and several times was one of the goal threat against Galatasaray. He wouldn't be dropped after that performance. ETH wants goal and McTominay physicality to offset the team deficiency. Amrabat on paper is more baller, but he's meh without any real strong point against opposition.

So the issue is ETH abandoned what we (even the fans who wanted him here from Ajax) thought he would bring: building a foundation for style of play long term with some suffer of short term result. He's becoming a charmless Ole than anything this season.
 
ti vu said:
McTominay got a goal and several times was one of the goal threat against Galatasaray. He wouldn't be dropped after that performance. ETH wants goal and McTominay physicality to offset the team deficiency. Amrabat on paper is more baller, but he's meh without any real strong point against opposition.

So the issue is ETH abandoned what we (even the fans who wanted him here from Ajax) thought he would bring: building a foundation for style of play long term with some suffer of short term result. He's becoming a charmless Ole than anything this season.
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I think this is where he deserves criticism. He has decided to try and scrap wins with players he doesn't really believe in, but are in better form than their counterparts.
 
One of the issues we have is the players don't really trust any players to receive the ball in semi-difficult circumstances and keep it. There's loads of opportunities to fire a ball along the floor into midfield and into our attacking players, but if they're marked or in congested areas, and we don't have a single player who you can trust to retain possession of a football. If there's an opposition player anywhere near them, they'll find a way to get tackled, take a heavy touch or misplace a pass. So our players don't even bother trying to play through the centre any more as they know their shite team mates will lose the ball anyway.

People love to simplify it by blaming one or two of our worst players e.g. Mctominay but the whole squad is technically inept. Exception maybe for Shaw and Martinez who play in defence.
 
It's his U shaped formation crap that hinder us to progress the ball. Does anyone notice what im talking ? This U shaped dogshit was also played by De Boer.
 
ti vu said:
McTominay got a goal and several times was one of the goal threat against Galatasaray. He wouldn't be dropped after that performance. ETH wants goal and McTominay physicality to offset the team deficiency. Amrabat on paper is more baller, but he's meh without any real strong point against opposition.

So the issue is ETH abandoned what we (even the fans who wanted him here from Ajax) thought he would bring: building a foundation for style of play long term with some suffer of short term result. He's becoming a charmless Ole than anything this season.
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He would be dropped off ten hag had any clue about midfielders. Being a goal threat Vs Gala means nothing, we need to control the ball and space, and every performance he has done shows hes not good enough.
 
Dominos said:
One of the issues we have is the players don't really trust any players to receive the ball in semi-difficult circumstances and keep it. There's loads of opportunities to fire a ball along the floor into midfield and into our attacking players, but if they're marked or in congested areas, and we don't have a single player who you can trust to retain possession of a football. If there's an opposition player anywhere near them, they'll find a way to get tackled, take a heavy touch or misplace a pass. So our players don't even bother trying to play through the centre any more as they know their shite team mates will lose the ball anyway.

People love to simplify it by blaming one or two of our worst players e.g. Mctominay but the whole squad is technically inept. Exception maybe for Shaw and Martinez who play in defence.
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And mainoo, which is tragic that we need an 18 year old to help us with it.
 
Lash said:
I think this is where he deserves criticism. He has decided to try and scrap wins with players he doesn't really believe in, but are in better form than their counterparts.
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I don't accept that. As we saw today were better when we changed players, mainly Rashford and martial.

The other side of it is, where the feck are the standards? If he goes down that route, he deserves to lose imo.
 
We literally only have one midfielder who takes the ball from the defence on the turn and can make that transition pass and it’s Eriksen.

Matic turned like a bus but he could do that. When a defender or the keeper passes you the ball in centre midfield and you are square facing your own goal there’s only one real direction you can go.
 
Lash said:
I think this is where he deserves criticism. He has decided to try and scrap wins with players he doesn't really believe in, but are in better form than their counterparts.
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I agree, though the transfer the club (and he) made have left him with no real choice.
 
The current setup in midfield is just pure desperation from a manager who is out of ideas. Any decent team will have a field day against us because we have a DM that always gets left on their own and Bruno playing out of position to accommodate Mctominay who is a passenger but has scored a few goals.

It’s just terrible management and it’s crazy how no matter how much we spend we still have a shit midfield.
 
tenhagsimp said:
It's his U shaped formation crap that hinder us to progress the ball. Does anyone notice what im talking ? This U shaped dogshit was also played by De Boer.
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The U shape is what naturally occurs when a setup fails due to a lack of dynamic movement in the middle, forcing a team to constantly try to rework the ball back through their own defensive line. It isn't intentional. Basically it's what happens when you have possession without penetration.

Dutch-schooled managers do seem particularly prone to it, as I can remember the likes of Van Gaal and Van Bronckhorst sides regularly falling into it, but it's typically something coaches try to remedy.
 
tenhagsimp said:
It's his U shaped formation crap that hinder us to progress the ball. Does anyone notice what im talking ? This U shaped dogshit was also played by De Boer.
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didz said:
The U shape is what naturally occurs when a setup fails due to a lack of dynamic movement in the middle, forcing a team to constantly try to rework the ball back through their own defensive line. It isn't intentional. Basically it's what happens when you have possession without penetration.

Dutch-schooled managers do seem particularly prone to it, as I can remember the likes of Van Gaal and Van Bronckhorst sides regularly falling into it, but it's typically something coaches try to remedy.
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Disagree on that U shaped passing map is Dutch schooled manager issue. We had exact similar U shaped passing pattern under Ole.

Yes it's a sign of a failed midfield, where we got pressured to go to the wide area by opposition, to be tactically isolated. Defenders are scared to pass to CMs, so the CMs tend to receive the pass from wingers/fullbacks after the ball gets progressed up the pitch via the flanks. There would appear a gap/spacing in passing map between the defensive line and midfield line.

The Dutch proneness thing is how passing between GK and the defenders is so prominent within a game despite opposition is the one who dominated possession. It's a sign of lacking of ideas, so that the team sees no safe/ advantage in passing to the front and ends up passing back to GK to create number advantage trying to recycle possession to provoke pressing and create space. In a team playing with high defensive line, GK passing pattern should only appear in season review passing map, not this prominent within a game like this. However good the GK is, he is not supposed to be the one dictate passing/play in a dominating team because ideally the play is expected to be in opposition half.

Strong team would be able to penetrate, dictate play in small space with rondos and pin back opposition to create big pitch for their defensive line nearer to half way line, instead of being stuck passing between defender and GK inside our half forever.
 
It's just a lack of ability when you have Casemiro and Eriksen missing. Even they have their issues.

But what you can't do is pair players who have no business being in the same team.

You can't put Mainoo, who loves having the ball next to McTominay, who wants nothing to do with the ball. It makes no sense.

Individually our midfielders aren't good enough but at least put together the guys who suit playing with each other.

If you start Mainoo you have to start Amrabat. They at least stylistically make sense as a pair.
 
ti vu said:
Disagree on that U shaped passing map is Dutch schooled manager issue. We had exact similar U shaped passing pattern under Ole.

Yes it's a sign of a failed midfield, where we got pressured to go to the wide area by opposition, to be tactically isolated. Defenders are scared to pass to CMs, so the CMs tend to receive the pass from wingers/fullbacks after the ball gets progressed up the pitch via the flanks. There would appear a gap/spacing in passing map between the defensive line and midfield line.

The Dutch proneness thing is how passing between GK and the defenders is so prominent within a game despite opposition is the one who dominated possession. It's a sign of lacking of ideas, so that the team sees no safe/ advantage in passing to the front and ends up passing back to GK to create number advantage trying to recycle possession to provoke pressing and create space. In a team playing with high defensive line, GK passing pattern should only appear in season review passing map, not this prominent within a game like this. However good the GK is, he is not supposed to be the one dictate passing/play in a dominating team because ideally the play is expected to be in opposition half.

Strong team would be able to penetrate, dictate play in small space with rondos and pin back opposition to create big pitch for their defensive line nearer to half way line, instead of being stuck passing between defender and GK inside our half forever.
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I never said it was exclusive to Dutch-schooled managers, just that it seems to come up pretty often there when things aren't going well. Lack of ideas, as you put it, is a pretty succinct description.

Personally I didn't really notice the U thing yesterday, but then I didn't really notice anything about us. There was just nothing at all from that United team, which was what was scary.
 
Hammondo said:
I don't accept that. As we saw today were better when we changed players, mainly Rashford and martial.

The other side of it is, where the feck are the standards? If he goes down that route, he deserves to lose imo.
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Was that anything to do with the players though? I'm not entirely sure it wasn't just because Newcastle were shagged. Rashford for sure is a special case, I just don't understand what's happened, but I can sort of understand the persistence. Martial is doing his classic fits and spurts of form and only competing with a 20 year old that's new to the league.

I guess that's what I'm saying as well, I think his decisions are hardline in standards of effort with Mctominay and then forgoes that with Martial and Rashford.
 
berbasloth4 said:
We literally only have one midfielder who takes the ball from the defence on the turn and can make that transition pass and it’s Eriksen.

Matic turned like a bus but he could do that. When a defender or the keeper passes you the ball in centre midfield and you are square facing your own goal there’s only one real direction you can go.
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Mainoo did that well against Everton. Haven't seen the match against Newcastle yet but did he not showcase that in that match?
 
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