Progressing the ball through midfield…

Rozay

Master of Hindsight
Joined
Oct 22, 2012
Messages
28,189
Location
...
We still require a lot of work to become a top team. Our ball progression through midfield is levels below what it should be and it caused us so many problems in the first half. A good side would have destroyed Everton in the first half, yet we contrived to almost get destroyed ourselves because we are just not a team that is comfortable with the football.

Mainoo coming in and doing first-phase midfield work was a help, but there was nothing 10 yards in front in the second line. McTominay doesn’t want the ball. There was a moment in the first half where Onana played it to his feet twice and he just have it back to him. Eventually, Onana kicked it out for a goal kick under pressure. The idea was for Scott to turn and play, but he is incapable. Bruno is a 10 who seeks to be decisive, but not the sort of 10 who goes looking for the ball and wants to get on it and get his team playing. Having Scott and Bruno as two thirds of our midfield helped drag us down into the sort of game we really shouldn’t have been in with Everton. First half we passed it back to Onana so many times because we don’t have a midfield that is comfortable doing the bits of midfield that constitutes 80-90% of the actual role of a midfielder, cert

Mason Mount was supposed to be that second line midfielder who can help progress and carry, but it remains to be seen what level he can reach here. We really need a midfielder to come and play 5-10 yards ahead of Mainoo who has similar on the ball qualities which would bring the best out of both of them. We don’t have this player in our squad. I have hopes that Dan Gore can do this, and I still have faith in Hannibal in this role. Mainoo is just the first step though, even as far as the midfield is concerned.

If we are convinced that Joao Neves is this player and want to spend big on him I won’t argue because we absolutely MUST get better. Mainoo being in the team will be good, but a midfielder can’t just play with other midfielders who don’t want to play. We will only unlock the best of Mainoo once he has a partner who is also wants to receive the ball and pass it. Eriksen has some of these qualities but simply can’t cover the ground both in and out of possession, and all the rest just simply don’t have the tools.

Of course, this is all assuming Mainoo becomes the player we want him to be. But we need a top class actual central midfielder. A player with high technical ability that can both play with the 6 behind him and the 10 ahead of him, sharing both of their duties with them and facilitating the transition between both.
 
Fully agree. It’s been painful at times this season how low on options we look when playing out from the back and into midfield, so much sideways passing.

We definitely need a top midfielder but if Mainoo can keep the level he showed today going we’ll only need one.
 
So true. I think we might have the answer in Hannibal. The future looks decent for United. It is the supposed elite players we have that need phasing out including (and I hate to say this) Casemiro who is well past his best.
 
Don't think Hannibal has the technical ability and not sure if Gore has the physicality. To play in the De Jong style of play requires a veryy good CM with good technique, awareness, passing and dribbling. The chances of more than one great midfield prospect coming through the academy is very low.

Agree on the sentiment of the OP. You can see how this formation/tactics could work by having 2 CBs who have great passing, a midfield 2 who can both pass and dribble through a press. This would then mean we can take advantage of having 4 attackers up top. The issue is that only Martinez has the quick through the line passing at CB and only Mainoo has the passing and dribbling ability in midfield. I think the jury is still out on Mount in that 8 role, I could see that potentially working as he has shown glimpses of having the close control/dribbling needed, but not sure if he has the passing range.

Ideally we would buy a quick strong passing right CB to partner Martinez and a CM in the mould of De Jong, with Mainoo hopefully being able to play alongside him. I believe that would strengthen us enormously from a defence and possession perspective.
 
Swap McT out and I think there’s a very functional midfield there. The question is if Mount can be that player.
 
Swap McT out and I think there’s a very functional midfield there. The question is if Mount can be that player.

I mean, McTominay needs to go, but the question is swap him for who? Nobody has shown that they can do this second line of midfield work to a high level. A lot does depend on Mount I agree, although I don’t think he’s good enough personally (although at his best, probably the best we have at this moment).
 
Don't think Hannibal has the technical ability and not sure if Gore has the physicality. To play in the De Jong style of play requires a veryy good CM with good technique, awareness, passing and dribbling. The chances of more than one great midfield prospect coming through the academy is very low.

Agree on the sentiment of the OP. You can see how this formation/tactics could work by having 2 CBs who have great passing, a midfield 2 who can both pass and dribble through a press. This would then mean we can take advantage of having 4 attackers up top. The issue is that only Martinez has the quick through the line passing at CB and only Mainoo has the passing and dribbling ability in midfield. I think the jury is still out on Mount in that 8 role, I could see that potentially working as he has shown glimpses of having the close control/dribbling needed, but not sure if he has the passing range.

Ideally we would buy a quick strong passing right CB to partner Martinez and a CM in the mould of De Jong, with Mainoo hopefully being able to play alongside him. I believe that would strengthen us enormously from a defence and possession perspective.
Not as optimistic here... Obviously it is great when you pack your team with many ball playing players but at the end of the day, it is the premier league so you have to be right there in terms of physicality. Mainoo is a baller from what we know. Add a player like FDJ (a like for like) would definitely improve our possession outlook but I don't know how it will improve our defense. Adding better CBs helps for sure but no team in the world plays without a midfielder who can really contribute defensively. I think we have seen todays game - Everton created chances. So it isn't as if Mainoo and McTom was some sort of defensive revelation. We need a physical player who can cover a lot of ground. Somebody like Rodri or Casemiro (not this years version of course). And probably we have to re-think Bruno because for all his great passing he misses a few qualities in midfield play that will be emphasized soon when this rotation heavy thing we are trying to do (as seen today) is a thing for the future. The Onana rumours make sense. An FDJ player makes sense but only if Mainoo is not a generational talent who will be able to play significant game time in the near future. If he does, then we don't have to prioritize a backup to him (which obviously would still be nice) but we have to go for a player with a profile we don't have at the club at all right now - ball winner, physical, covering ground (, tall).
 
Our team is unusual in the sense that our players get less comfortable on the ball the further forward we go from back to front. We have a comfortable goalkeeper, comfortable left back, comfortable left centre half, then from what we see of Mainoo, he’s a natural possession player - and then you move forward to the likes of Bruno, Rashford and even Hojlund who are not the most graceful I would say.
 
Not as optimistic here... Obviously it is great when you pack your team with many ball playing players but at the end of the day, it is the premier league so you have to be right there in terms of physicality. Mainoo is a baller from what we know. Add a player like FDJ (a like for like) would definitely improve our possession outlook but I don't know how it will improve our defense. Adding better CBs helps for sure but no team in the world plays without a midfielder who can really contribute defensively. I think we have seen todays game - Everton created chances. So it isn't as if Mainoo and McTom was some sort of defensive revelation. We need a physical player who can cover a lot of ground. Somebody like Rodri or Casemiro (not this years version of course). And probably we have to re-think Bruno because for all his great passing he misses a few qualities in midfield play that will be emphasized soon when this rotation heavy thing we are trying to do (as seen today) is a thing for the future. The Onana rumours make sense. An FDJ player makes sense but only if Mainoo is not a generational talent who will be able to play significant game time in the near future. If he does, then we don't have to prioritize a backup to him (which obviously would still be nice) but we have to go for a player with a profile we don't have at the club at all right now - ball winner, physical, covering ground (, tall).

Ultimately, we need to ask ourselves what sort of team we want to be. It has some logic to ‘add some height’ to midfield because it’s the PL for example - but are the pieces you are putting together getting the best out of each other?

And I don’t necessarily disagree with you, only I don’t see Mainoo as a physical concern in the long run. He’s not 6’2 of course - but then neither is Bissouma or say Caicedo. They don’t lack physicality, in fact, they are the opposite, mad I see Mainoo developing a similar physical profile. I’m not opposed to Onana because he’s actually not bad on the ball, but my priority is to have a comfortable central midfielder. That doesn’t need to be a midget by any means.
 
I mean, McTominay needs to go, but the question is swap him for who? Nobody has shown that they can do this second line of midfield work to a high level. A lot does depend on Mount I agree, although I don’t think he’s good enough personally (although at his best, probably the best we have at this moment).
Assuming Mount doesn’t work out, my preference would be for someone with the profile of Kovacic but hopefully early in their career.
 
Assuming Mount doesn’t work out, my preference would be for someone with the profile of Kovacic but hopefully early in their career.

Indeed, this would be the type of profile. The Joao Neves links make sense.

I have long been a fan of Nicolo Barella personally who would likely cost less than Neves. That said, I do wonder if he’s been in Italy too long. I have concerns about the transition from Serie A for Italians. If we got him out of there when he left Cagliari at 21 I’d be more confident.
 
Not as optimistic here... Obviously it is great when you pack your team with many ball playing players but at the end of the day, it is the premier league so you have to be right there in terms of physicality. Mainoo is a baller from what we know. Add a player like FDJ (a like for like) would definitely improve our possession outlook but I don't know how it will improve our defense. Adding better CBs helps for sure but no team in the world plays without a midfielder who can really contribute defensively. I think we have seen todays game - Everton created chances. So it isn't as if Mainoo and McTom was some sort of defensive revelation. We need a physical player who can cover a lot of ground. Somebody like Rodri or Casemiro (not this years version of course). And probably we have to re-think Bruno because for all his great passing he misses a few qualities in midfield play that will be emphasized soon when this rotation heavy thing we are trying to do (as seen today) is a thing for the future. The Onana rumours make sense. An FDJ player makes sense but only if Mainoo is not a generational talent who will be able to play significant game time in the near future. If he does, then we don't have to prioritize a backup to him (which obviously would still be nice) but we have to go for a player with a profile we don't have at the club at all right now - ball winner, physical, covering ground (, tall).

Which I get however it all depends on the tactics EtH wants to play. No reason you can't invert the two 10s and a cdm that pep employed with two deeper playmakers with good defensive abilities similar to Mainoo and De Jong and then a more risky 10 in Bruno. On their own neither Mainoo or De Jong would be as good as Rodri or Casemiro defensively but together could be. Obviously that requires Mainoo being the real deal and finding a De Jong type player to pair alongside him. The point being that as shown with the two 10s plus a cdm, a midfield 3 doesn't have to be a cdm, b2b and a 10. It also means you'd have your box of 4 players just slightly deeper with the 2 cbs and 2 cms. All hypothetical though.

Regarding the physicality that may be an issue, however what both De Jong and Mainoo have is dynamic physicality, maybe not flat out strength but pace and drive. Add a big strong fast ball playing CB next to Martinez or get in 2 big strong fast ball playing CBs and you could potentially mitigate that.
 
Ultimately, we need to ask ourselves what sort of team we want to be. It has some logic to ‘add some height’ to midfield because it’s the PL for example - but are the pieces you are putting together getting the best out of each other?
Well in my eyes they work at least as wonderful as the player you have in mind work out in your eyes :D So, yeah of course, it is about getting a good combination. But for me personally, I always want a player in the team who has what I described, mobility, natural aggression, physicality, ball winning ability. The perfect player adds some drive to it, ability to progress with dribblings or passing. But those features, to me are 2nd priority for this specific player as long as the first boxes are ticked and available at an elite level. I think, having such a player opens up so many tactics and systems that it is crazy not to have one in the squad. I personally want such a player for the starting eleven, obviously then he has to have good technique on top of the basics and should be above 82 percentile either in progressive passing or carries. But I'd be fine adding such a player for the bench as well, as long as he is available when needed.

And I don’t necessarily disagree with you, only I don’t see Mainoo as a physical concern in the long run. He’s not 6’2 of course - but then neither is Bissouma or say Caicedo. They don’t lack physicality, in fact, they are the opposite, mad I see Mainoo developing a similar physical profile. I’m not opposed to Onana because he’s actually not bad on the ball, but my priority is to have a comfortable central midfielder. That doesn’t need to be a midget by any means.
Think I understand your point. You are trying to go for the Gündogan/Kovacic/Nunes while having Mainoo at where Rodri is. Makes sense. My personal feel is though, that Mainoo isn't suited for that role. But I haven't seen too much, just read articles, looked at summaries and so on. To me, Mainoo looks like the profile you are looking at and my take would be to add the Rodri. I don't know, but to be honest, I think your profile could be covered by Mount or Hannibal, even Bruno to a degree. And Gore looks like going into this direction as well. What we don't have at all is this Rodri figure.

Obviously we don't have to go for "like for like" composition. But as long as we plan with Martinez we will have to handle his height disadvantage somehow. The rest of the defense isn't too great in the air as well so something has to give. It would make a lot of sense to have this defensive player closer to the defense - and Mainoo hasn't shown anything that indicates that he will be great in the air some day.
 
We need to stop blaming individual players for this. It is on Ten Hag’s disastrous 3-1-6 system that is built upon tenets of positional play. We cannot blame Bruno or McTominay for not coming deeper or showing for the ball when they are requested to stay in their zone and wait for the ball to them, although there is no tactic or pattern of play for it to reach them.

See the game vs. Everton today. Our back 3 was Maguire and Lindelof and one the full-backs (Shaw or Dalot). Then you have Mainoo as the 1. Then you have both McTominay and Bruno in the 10, alongside one of Dalot or Shaw in the half-space.

In theory, you would think that we would overload Everton’s last defensive line, especially with Martial dropping in and Rashford and Garnacho playing high and wide.

But here is the issue. How do the back 3 and the 1 get the ball to the front 6, when they are both behind two defensive lines?

United struggled to progress the ball against Everton, as we have done all season, as Everton employed a narrow 442 defensive shape. For the back to get the ball to Mainoo it was difficult because: firstly, Everton’s front 2 of Doucoure and Calvert-Lewin were cutting off the passing lands into him. Secondly, Everton’s wide midfielders (McNeill and Harrison) were narrow enough to be able to immediately press Mainoo if he recieved the ball.

Today, as we did against Luton, United gave up on progressing the ball through the middle altogether and instead went wide early to try to create overloads. We scored a wonder goal from this, but can we get a goal like that every week? It is telling that our XG in the first half was 0.04!

We beat Everton today in spite of Ten Hag’s system and not because of it. He could fix this so easy by keeping one of the full-backs closer to the DM in the first and second phases of build-up but this manager is too stubborn.

The reason why we did not have this issue last season is because Martinez is an absolute beast who can break two lines with one pass and feed the ball into the 10s or somebody in the half-space. The fact that our ball progression is so reliant on one player is a really bad sign.
 
Which I get however it all depends on the tactics EtH wants to play. No reason you can't invert the two 10s and a cdm that pep employed with two deeper playmakers with good defensive abilities similar to Mainoo and De Jong and then a more risky 10 in Bruno. On their own neither Mainoo or De Jong would be as good as Rodri or Casemiro defensively but together could be. Obviously that requires Mainoo being the real deal and finding a De Jong type player to pair alongside him. The point being that as shown with the two 10s plus a cdm, a midfield 3 doesn't have to be a cdm, b2b and a 10. It also means you'd have your box of 4 players just slightly deeper with the 2 cbs and 2 cms. All hypothetical though.
I agree, there could be a way to make it work. But at this point, I don't really trust ETH or any of the higher ups to come up with something that hasn't been done somewhere else and make it work. Also If this switch is made, it probably would require other fullbacks on top of it.

Regarding the physicality that may be an issue, however what both De Jong and Mainoo have is dynamic physicality, maybe not flat out strength but pace and drive. Add a big strong fast ball playing CB next to Martinez or get in 2 big strong fast ball playing CBs and you could potentially mitigate that.
Same here, it could be possible to make it work but on the other hand there is no successful team in the younger history who made it work without this physical ballwinner in midfield*. Even Tiki Taka Barca or todays City have that so I don't think it would be reasonable to seriously expect United to come up with a solution to this problem (knowing that we haven't even caught up in football sciences and play the game mostly as if would be the year 2012).

*This years Liverpool could be interesting in that regard but again, I have more trust in Klopp to make it work than in ETH or anybody at United.
 
I find Mctominay quite an infuriating player at times as he seems to almost deliberately hide from the ball, which you can't do in any position never mind midfield.

Mainoo was a breath of fresh air and he really showed up how much of a problem this is in our team, because you had an 18 year old on his first PL start looking more like an established, capable midfield player than any of our actual midfielders barring Casemiro.

Not saying Mainoo didn't do really well, but players shouldn't be able to come into our team and stick out like a sore thumb by just doing their job correctly. Westbound be talking about him doing well because he didn't look out of place, not because he's doing basic stuff that we're used to our players simply not doing
 
I fully agree that we need to be more progressive with our style of play and retaining possession. As difficult as it is to see at the minute I do believe the manager is aware of the issue and realises we have to have develop here.
As seen by playing Mainoo he is willing to take a risk to help us add composure to the middle of the park and impose his style of play.

I believe we saw last season times in games where the players were dynamic, fluid and hungry to receive the ball and as a result we opened teams up. As confidence has fluctuated and then plummeted we have seen less of this and more static movement thus trying to adapt to just survive in games at times. As negative as this sounds it actually is a positive for me as it shows we can adapt, or at least try to be tactically flexible.

I do think there is a player in Mount and he has a good mix of tenacity, passing and goal threat to settle in once we improve as a team overall. I’ve also got hopes for Gore too, and think his attitude can combat fears about his size. I really do believe we will turn to our academy if given the chance.
The spine of the team hasn’t been consistent either since Martinez injury last season and this does affect the fluidity. He will definitely improve us when he returns and I have confidence the team will improve.

With the age profile of our midfielders we will have to invest in the next year or 2 and find a player to hopefully compliment those we want to progress. Ideally I’d like a younger version of Casimero and Eriksen. A ball winner who can pass and contribute goals, and a deep playmaker who can create space and retain possession.
 
Our team is unusual in the sense that our players get less comfortable on the ball the further forward we go from back to front. We have a comfortable goalkeeper, comfortable left back, comfortable left centre half, then from what we see of Mainoo, he’s a natural possession player - and then you move forward to the likes of Bruno, Rashford and even Hojlund who are not the most graceful I would say.
Dan Gore. Let's go full LvG.
 
The way Ten Hag sets it up makes it shit. No matter the combination of midfielders it's consistently overrun
Yeah this is what the actual answer is. It's not always down to personnel. Ten hag hasn't shown he knows how to control games regardless of personnel
 
It’s the set up and the players he picks. McTominay made 13 passes that half, the next lowest of all the midfielders was nearly double that at 25. He’s genuinely a non entity in there
 
Yeah this is what the actual answer is. It's not always down to personnel. Ten hag hasn't shown he knows how to control games regardless of personnel

I agree. Although that midfield today takes the piss even on paper. Relying on an 18 year old to run the whole midfield is just bonkers.
 
It’s the set up and the players he picks. McTominay made 13 passes that half, the next lowest of all the midfielders was nearly double that at 25. He’s genuinely a non entity in there

He has no idea what to do. Never does. Pops up with a goal or two here and there but that's not good enough by any stretch of imagination.
 
Mainoo is actually good at this... but the overall set-up is just so bad. This confirms to me that Casemiro might not actually be finished, and Mainoo-Casemiro double pivot could be good if they had a manager not continually set up to leave the DM so exposed.
 
I agree. Although that midfield today takes the piss even on paper. Relying on an 18 year old to run the whole midfield is just bonkers.
It's not a big deal. Mainoo would be capable of it if he was given a system. Bruno is fine. McTominay is of course weak but the issue is also absolutely 0 movement from the attackers (bar Garnacho) or hold up play, so it's very hard to do much with it. Put a coach who knows how to organize them there and it'd be a different story
 
It's not a big deal. Mainoo would be capable of it if he was given a system. Bruno is fine. McTominay is of course weak but the issue is also absolutely 0 movement from the attackers (bar Garnacho) or hold up play, so it's very hard to do much with it. Put a coach who knows how to organize them there and it'd be a different story

McT is a joke in midfield and Bruno isn't a CM either. Against teams like Newcastle when we need a strong and balanced midfield both aren't suitable for the CM role. Not that they are playing there anyway. Both way too high up the pitch. And McT is hiding as always.
 
McT is a joke in midfield and Bruno isn't a CM either. Against teams like Newcastle when we need a strong and balanced midfield both aren't suitable for the CM role. Not that they are playing there anyway. Both way too high up the pitch. And McT is hiding as always.
That's set up though. Ten Hag loves to push his 8/10's high and leave 1 guy deep. It's a suicidal set up but it's what he's shown to want to implement all the time.

Bruno is capable of playing as a midfielder. He's a quality player and has shown that in the past. McTominay pretty much just doing what Joelinton does for Newcastle isn't that hard to imagine either. No matter the opponent, no matter who we put out there, we play our midfield the same way and the same issues exist.
 
What is this possession of the ball you speak of.
 
bad stream, seen the game only in small stretches, but it makes one thing very clear - every time the stream works, newcasatle are swapping passes in midfield, or united are clearing desperately. no midfield at all.
 
I want to see mainoo, case, and Erikson as a 3. I can only dream.
 
Whole team is badly coached. Every part of the team looks rubbish..Maguire is exceptional defender when playing deep so playing very well, Shaw is probably our one world class player and looks good whenever he plays. Everyone else looks poor and it is clearly down to how the team is coached
 
I want to see mainoo, case, and Erikson as a 3. I can only dream.

Its a team shape not just the midfield.

Our while team isnt in a good enough shape for a top team. Players on the ball have less options than other top teams.
 
There’s just a vacuum in there. Like what is the actual plan, just have Bruno try first time balls and that’s basically it?