Neither was Chris Sutton to be fair, which is particularly strange considering he had proven that he could score goals in the very same league.
'Premiership Proven'
- Thread starter Rozay
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) are here to discuss Amad saving our blushes in a win against Southampton as well as our now annual loss at home to Brighton. They discuss Amorim's post-match comments, revisit how mid-table we may or may not be, and discuss some transfer news.
Neither was Chris Sutton to be fair, which is particularly strange considering he had proven that he could score goals in the very same league.
Who cares about Chris Sutton?
In this thread I imagine what side of the debate you fall on.
I don't see why Chelsea's then record signing (if I recall) failing despite being Premiership Proven is irrelevant, yet Rebrov not hitting the heights isn't.
Ashley Younh sticks out as the only player In recent times who we seem to have gotten because he was from the premier league, and in whose case we could have done much better. I can think of any other really so I'm not sure if this applied to us? We probably went for Valencia because he was good at hugging the touch line and getting crosses in rather than being from the premier league.
I definitely think how well the player is likely to do in this league should be a factor, but between a premier league proven player and another who isn't, it depends from case to case.
I definitely think how well the player is likely to do in this league should be a factor, but between a premier league proven player and another who isn't, it depends from case to case.
That's fair.
With Valencia, I just think, given we had just lost Ronaldo, and had virtually money to buy anybody - deciding Valencia was the best we could get was disappointing. Robben left Madrid for Bayern that summer, and is significantly better than Valencia, for example. There was a lot of talk about Ribery that summer too, and many expected us to go for him with the money. Perhaps it was a combination of price and Prem experience. I think given what we lost, going for a player because he was 'good at hugging the touchline and getting crosses in' should not have been the search paramenters, but I suppose that is a different argument.
Also, I think it isn't as much of who we have bought but who we have not. Players like Vidal for instance who we don't seem to think would fit us. Cazorla moving for £12m or so. Gundogan, of whom we had a look but seemingly did not fancy. It isn't even so much as buying Young than it is about not going for Mata instead.
Well obviously any big signing can flop, but generally I think there is a higher risk with overseas signings of not being able to adapt.
Plus Fergie has always favoured a British spine to the team - clubs with foreign managers tend not to be too bothered about that.
also even some who are a success from overseas need 1 season or more to adapt to life in England and the style of football in the PL, whereas the hope with a proven PL player is that they can make an impact from day 1.
'Premiership proven' is a very important factor, can't deny that. This is arguably the best and most exciting league on the globe but sometimes there's a differrence between this term and 'United's quality'. Signing Juan Sebastian Veron and Diego Forlan was indication of United, searching for more exotic football solutions for the team.
Sir Alex loved to sign the mix of all kinds of proven players from various leagues. Young, De Gea or Van Persie, Kagawa or even Tevez, Hargreaves.
I'm sure on 99% that Moyesy is that type of manager. He values Premiership's tower - Fellaini, but didn't forget to ask for Cesc and probably few other quality footballers from other leagues.
Sir Alex loved to sign the mix of all kinds of proven players from various leagues. Young, De Gea or Van Persie, Kagawa or even Tevez, Hargreaves.
I'm sure on 99% that Moyesy is that type of manager. He values Premiership's tower - Fellaini, but didn't forget to ask for Cesc and probably few other quality footballers from other leagues.
Cesc is PL proven tbf.
We do seem a bit hesitant when it comes to signing unproven players from abroad.
Yes we have missed out of many players in recent times. One of the reasons I think is that we get uncomfortable when entering into the 20 plus million territory but seem to have no issues with spending 17 million on either young or Zaha. Plus, in central midfield we seem to have gone asleep basically. It's shocking how we've gone so long without strengthening when everyone around us does.
Also, another thing to consider is our style of play. I think the no.10 type players might not suit our spread out, two wingers style of play and maybe that's why we've not gone for players in the mata mould.
I'd like to see two things change - 1. For us to be prepared to spend big like bayern did on Martinez. We seem go be very uneasy paying big sums. 2. Buy more technical footballers. Obviously I'm not counting the demand popularly known as "buy a funking midfielder ffs!".
Yup, you're right but he's more than that. He's proven pretty much everywhere, just like Ronnie.
I think were generally a bit safe in our transfer dealings. Big transfers fees tend to scare us a bit whereas other top clubs just go out and get a Martinez or a Neymar. We've signed a lot of players from the English leagues in recent times - young, jones, smalling, Powell, Zaha, Rvp. But I think we're trying to (in the case of most of those), as we always do, build an English core for the future, which is fair.
Well we cant afford to make expensive mistakes like the likes of Real, City and Chelsea do. So its understandable to an extent but not when it comes to obvious talents like the ones you mentioned.
I dont have any issues with the policy tbh, as you said, we've always tried to have an english core. But we could still do with trusting foreigners more, specially the ones from Germany and Spain who seem to be laden with top talent in positions where we could use them.
I don't think Rebrov or Angel can be classified as top class players, Forlan came from outside Europe and Shevchenko was getting worse towards the end of his Milan spell anyway. Torres was Premiership proven and he isn't really doing that much better for Chelsea.
Other than Drogba, Chelsea is where strikers go to die. I never said any of those strikers were world class, my point is that it's often less risky to buy a player that you know performs well in the PL. Of course there are exceptions, look at Michu. Torres had a great first season and has steadily declined since.
I think Premiership proven is a load of bollocks. You adjust with time. It's like the worlds best players come over and instantly forget how to play football, because a couple handful of players didn't make it in the PL. Like the worlds best players change leagues and all of a sudden play at Sunday league level. The PL is different yes, but it's not a mythical league that you'd have to be Dragonborn to succeed in and unless you are the Gatekeeper you'll just fail.
If you've got the skill and the determination, you will succeed. People change leagues all the time. I think people are arrogant sometimes when talking about the PL.
If you've got the skill and the determination, you will succeed. People change leagues all the time. I think people are arrogant sometimes when talking about the PL.
It's quite clearly less of a risk to go for a player who has already proven themselves in the PL.
I don't think so, unless you're elevating the PL to some mythical status of unreachable quality. Look at some of the dross in the PL that play just fine. It depends on what exactly you think the risk is, why would somebody fail? IMO only if they lack the discipline and determination, and that's to do with the individual and not the league.
Someone accustomed to playing in say, Brazil has been taught to play a certain way. They succeed in that league because they're taught to play that way. They are determined and disciplined. When they come to England, that should continue. If it doesn't, then it's the individual. You shouldn't shy away from somebody gifted because they might fail. You should evaluate their attitude and determination.
So you think that two players who are basically equal in quality are in exactly the same boat even if one has been in the PL for 3-4 years and the other has no experience at all?
I agree to an extent that it's overblown but it does have an impact.
No, I think that the other one will adjust in time, given the same tutoring that the first had in those first 3-4 years, and it probably wouldn't have taken the first guy 4 years to get used to the PL, he would have adjusted in X time and then spent the rest of those 4 years comfortable at that level and your other man just has to play catch up. If you have the skill, class and attitude you'll do it.
People talk about the premier league like it's some kind of mythical place. Everybody has to start off somewhere, everybody who has PL experience didn't have it at one point, and the roadsides aren't full of crippled past their sell by date footballers who tried but just couldn't make it.
They're professionals, they're elite athletes and they respond to change by adapting to change and over time, taking to their surroundings. Look at Evra, when he signed SAF pulled him off at half time and made him watch videos of United saying 'this is how we do it over here' or 'now you learn English football' or words to that effect, I can't remember fully and he adapted. Anybody with enough determination, would succeed if shown what they needed to work on and what they needed to change.
Nobody was born with the innate ability to play in Brazil for example, they were taught, they took it upon themselves to improve and drove themselves to succeed there. That shouldn't change wherever you are. If you're signed from abroad you shouldn't just carry on playing the Spanish way etc, you'd say what are the differences between the league I was in and this league, let's learn what needs to be changed and get comfortable with it.
Buying in foreign talents just adds to the risk potential that lies in every transfer. When a team buys someone, even from the premier league, they have to consider many things from the players abilities, to his social life, whether he can get on with the team mates, languages he speaks etc etc and buying in someone without EPL experience adds even more risk. United are not in that position that Chelsea and Man City are in where they can gamble on buying an expensive foreign player, let him flop and just toss him out. We are also not in the same boat as someone like Spurs who need to build a team that can get into Champions League and they need 4 or 5 good players. Needing so much players means they are forced to look outside the Premier League as players that can boost them to the level they want to be at are all in the teams above them.
We on the other hand always have a great team that needs tweaks here and there, never an overhaul. We also have to be clever in how we spend our money as we are not owned by a sugardaddy. So we have to asses all the risks before making a purchase. Having said that, you can see that we go for players with Premier League experience and players without, but generally (and understandably) are heavily risk conscious when making transfers.
But the purchase of Bebe throws my entire post into turmoil
We on the other hand always have a great team that needs tweaks here and there, never an overhaul. We also have to be clever in how we spend our money as we are not owned by a sugardaddy. So we have to asses all the risks before making a purchase. Having said that, you can see that we go for players with Premier League experience and players without, but generally (and understandably) are heavily risk conscious when making transfers.
But the purchase of Bebe throws my entire post into turmoil
Right, in time, maybe, but the other is arguably up to the task immediately which surely gives them an advantage short-term at least, no? It is more so down to the player themselves but there have been numerous footballers unable to adapt to the style here, and it's not just the PL, there have been plenty who have gone to Spain, Germany etc and struggled to replicate their form in their previous league too. It's not that the PL holds a mythical status, it's simply that managers will always have a preference to players who they have already seen play in their respective league. SAF did it time and time again, and who's to argue with him?
It's the defending mate. Defending in PL is better than anywhere else, ever.
I think people are taking "premiership proven" too literally here, only a select few would still argue that the PL is the strongest league in Europe.
It depends what you want. Do you want a short term fix or do you want a long term solution? If you have player A of premiership experience but a skill below player B who has no premiership experience then surely common sense says you take the option that provides the biggest dividend in the long run. Like I said anyway it's not like someone with 4 years PL experience only recently in the last few weeks adjusted to playing in the PL. That would have come naturally in not a massive amount of time, and they've simply spent the last 3 years playing at that level. Just because someone has 4 years in the PL, doesn't mean it's going to take 4 years for someone to get used to the PL.
I'm not saying there aren't players that have gone to other countries and failed, I'm just saying that those numbers are surely insignificant when compared to players that have managed perfectly fine. It might seem a lot if you just read name after name, but if you looked at name after name of people who moved and succeeded, surely it looks massively disproportionate which would indicate that while there is evidently a risk, the risk is nowhere near as big as people make out.
Plus IMO, there is an argument that length of experience can also lead to stagnated performance or complacency, vs fresh blood eager to learn and impress.
I mean, I haven't got the skill to play Sunday League let alone professionally, but if I had, and I was being signed from wherever to play in the PL then surely common sense says 'rather than just slot in and play the style I'm used to, let's get to the club and get working on it. Let's find out from the club the key differences in the leagues, what I'm maybe used to doing that doesn't work here, let's spend my time learning and changing and getting accustomed to how it works and make sure I adapt and succeed.' It's a proactive individual thing IMO. It's not that the nature of the league makes it difficult to attain, it's the players attitude and desire and you can assess that whilst looking at signing them.
If you look for example at the brightest talents in other leagues, they're where they are because they display these aptitudes. They didn't know the league they are currently playing in until they started, and they've impressed by adapting to that in their own country. I'd sooner take someone with that attitude who has the quality and just needs to adjust their playstyle like they had to when they learnt how to play in their previous league, and did it then and excelled and impressed at it, and let them repeat the process here than take somebody from a lesser team in the PL who while they're used to that playstyle, are going to be shifting from somewhere that demanded a lower quality of football to all of a sudden being thrust into a team that requires you to step up to the plate technically, physically and ability wise rather than just knowing how the PL works.
To me, someone used to playing in a PL team having to step up in ability is a bigger risk than somebody who displays that ability and quality of play in another country, that just needs to adjust to the PL.
Maybe I'm talking complete shit, it just makes sense to me that's all.
I mean, I haven't got the skill to play Sunday League let alone professionally, but if I had, and I was being signed from wherever to play in the PL then surely common sense says 'rather than just slot in and play the style I'm used to, let's get to the club and get working on it. Let's find out from the club the key differences in the leagues, what I'm maybe used to doing that doesn't work here, let's spend my time learning and changing and getting accustomed to how it works and make sure I adapt and succeed.' It's a proactive individual thing IMO. It's not that the nature of the league makes it difficult to attain, it's the players attitude and desire and you can assess that whilst looking at signing them.
If you look for example at the brightest talents in other leagues, they're where they are because they display these aptitudes. They didn't know the league they are currently playing in until they started, and they've impressed by adapting to that in their own country. I'd sooner take someone with that attitude who has the quality and just needs to adjust their playstyle like they had to when they learnt how to play in their previous league, and did it then and excelled and impressed at it, and let them repeat the process here than take somebody from a lesser team in the PL who while they're used to that playstyle, are going to be shifting from somewhere that demanded a lower quality of football to all of a sudden being thrust into a team that requires you to step up to the plate technically, physically and ability wise rather than just knowing how the PL works.
To me, someone used to playing in a PL team having to step up in ability is a bigger risk than somebody who displays that ability and quality of play in another country, that just needs to adjust to the PL.
Maybe I'm talking complete shit, it just makes sense to me that's all.
I don't think it's a big risk per say, but when you're playing with such massive fees and wages, it does need to be taken into account. I think people go vastly overboard about it and I've long said that the club is a bit too focused with buying young English players and decent/good PL players and ignoring all the top European talent floating around but they obviously feel it's something that's worked very well for them and will continue to do.
I don't think it's unfair to suggest buying a player who has done well in the PL is less of a risk than buying a player who hasn't (assuming they're at a similar level of course) but at the same time I don't agree with the idea of ignoring extremely talented Europeans because they do represent more of a risk than a lesser "PL proven" footballer. It works both ways I guess. We're a little too obsessed with the PL proven tag at Utd where as other clubs like Arse and Chelsea will happily go for Europeans at will and have a fair hit/miss ratio with them.
It is not just about the standard or style of the league though - there is often language barrier and adjusting to life in another country in general.
Plus with United specifically, Fergie always targeted a certain type of player who would do things 'the United way' and that type of player is more likely to be found domestically.
I just think that the amount of time it takes a professional, who wants to be the best, who is paid to put in the effort to try and be the best, who wants to be a success, is massively over exaggerated. To me it almost seems like people are taking the mindset of a normal person, and inferring it would be the same for a professional athlete who has already displayed extraordinary ability elsewhere when they had to learn that style anyway.
It's similar to me, to a quote I read once that someone had a bugbear with, when you hear someone say 'yeah if I got paid X amount of money a week I'd train that hard too' and then he went on to explain how athletes started out with nothing, they busted their arse training often at a loss to themselves financially, trying to make it to that level. Putting in effort day in and day out in order to get to where they needed to be before they even started earning that money.
That's the mindset of these athletes. They will find a way to succeed, just like they already did before. It's not like they come over and then say 'nope sorry boss, I just can't seem to do it.' They do everything they need to. They didn't slot into the football in their own leagues with ease, they had to train so damn hard to make it ahead of everybody else, and that mindset should carry over with them to succeed in their new place.
Obviously there are exceptions to the rule, but I believe that's individual characteristics rather than the nature of the league itself.
In our entire history, we've signed one top player*, Juan Veron, from continental Europe, south of latitude 50 degrees, or South America, the home of most of the world's best players. We've pursued more - Ronaldinho, Torres, Zidane, Fabregas, Xavi, Benzema, Hazard, Lucas, Sanchez etc. but failed to sign them.
Other premiership teams have done much better. Even Liverpool, with less to offer, have had more success, signing Torres, after several failed United bids, and Xabi Alonso, among others.
Edit: We've done pretty well regardless, but it's still a remarkable fact.
*By this I mean a player who was acknowledged as a big, sought after talent at the time, not a young player, or someone who later turned out to be very good.
Other premiership teams have done much better. Even Liverpool, with less to offer, have had more success, signing Torres, after several failed United bids, and Xabi Alonso, among others.
Edit: We've done pretty well regardless, but it's still a remarkable fact.
*By this I mean a player who was acknowledged as a big, sought after talent at the time, not a young player, or someone who later turned out to be very good.
This. 'PL proven' has become a buzzword but it's not very important.
*Premier League.
Agree that premiership proven is usually overrated. A lot of players signed for decent money from premier league teams fail to do as well at a new club because the players and tactics are different. Some others improve playing with new, better players. I'm not sure on the numbers, but it feels about half and half.
But the big big money signings from premier league club to premier league club? I think most of those have failed. Taking a player from abroad is a gamble on whether they adapt to the premier league. But so is signing a player doing well in one premier league team for a lot of money and expecting him to do the same in your team.
But the big big money signings from premier league club to premier league club? I think most of those have failed. Taking a player from abroad is a gamble on whether they adapt to the premier league. But so is signing a player doing well in one premier league team for a lot of money and expecting him to do the same in your team.